Ultimate Combat Deck?

We are preparing for a special tournament this april and i'd like to get some feedback on what deck to use. The tournament is called king of combat and as the name implies the decks are all combat based, no sneak bleed no votes. A strong contender for this is our local gangrel's potence/protean deck which features gangrel with potence using immortal grapple, pushing the limit, and claws...and oh yes the thrice damned drawing out the beast and some fortitude prevention cards. What would be a good way to counter this and any other combat deck for this amtter? i expect to see a lot of assamites and some lasombra entombment decks as well :) is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? comments would be welcome :) johann

mads...@hotmail.com (Johann) wrote in message news:<d8262103.02032...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] A assamite long range combat deck, with a few IR goggle (lots of manuvers also), a bit of stealth for the goggles and a bit of intercept can go a long long way :D

"Johann" <mads...@hotmail.com> wrote > > is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick > any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? > comments would be welcome :) Given that you know every other deck at the tourney will be trying to kick your ass into the ground, I would highly recommend basing yours around fortitude. How about POT/FOR? I'm quite fond of prevent followed by Disarm. It's hard to get around and people will just not want to fight with you most of the time after seeing you pull it off. Cheers, WES

In message <b57b2dc9.02032...@posting.google.com>, wb...@hotmail.com (Daz) mumbled something about: >mads...@hotmail.com (Johann) wrote in message news:<d8262103.02032...@posting.google.com>... >> is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick >> any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? >> comments would be welcome :) >> >A assamite long range combat deck, with a few IR goggle (lots of >manuvers also), a bit of stealth for the goggles and a bit of >intercept can go a long long way :D Loses to Drawing out the Beast. One of the "best" fight combos is: Drawing out the Beast Immortal Grapple Claws of the Pokey Pokey (insert favourite Fortitude prevent card here) Your option: Prevent, play Anaesthetic Touch, or go to torpor. Can be optionally boosted with Torn Signposts and the like, in an effort to outright burn people and get round Skin of Rock/Resilience. Badger, Katarina, Wynn, and Basilia can all do this. Basilia has an advantage; she doesn't need Claws. Wynn has an advantage; he doesn't need a Rush. Badger has an advantage; he only costs 6. Katarina has an advantage; she's a Prince. If we allow inferior Fortitude, then Zack North, Faruq, and Angus the Unruly enter the picture. Zack has +1 strength, Angus has +1 strength and is a Justicar, and Faruq has Dominate. If we allow NO Fortitude and hope we don't get poked back, then Ebaneezer Roush, Nu the Pillar, and Don Cruez all enter the picture. All these guys have POT, and will do better jacking up their strength with a Torn Signpost and Taste of Vitae to recover the blood loss from DotB's strength increase. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:gb2s9usvslfgc59kp...@4ax.com... > In message <b57b2dc9.02032...@posting.google.com>, > wb...@hotmail.com (Daz) mumbled something about: > > One of the "best" fight combos is: > > Drawing out the Beast > Immortal Grapple > Claws of the Pokey Pokey > (insert favourite Fortitude prevent card here) > It's a very good combo but suffers from a) high average capacity, since rush decks are usually better with weenies.... Blood Brother combat has the same problem, but ameliorated very slightly by Unwholesome Bond, and Freak Drive (which, of course, the Gangrel w/pot deck can also use), and b) too many moving parts (usually), since once you add in Bum's Rushes and various Potence goodness, you now have approximately a 6-8 card combo for each vamp you wanna waste. Neither problem keeps the combo from being good, but both make it more than a "simple matter of execution". Pruning the deck down to the bare essentials, and then ensuring that you get vampires out quickly with all of your most imporant disciplines can be a real task. Also, adding permanents, like Shadow of the Wolf, etc., for when you run out of cards starts to be a factor in anything larger than a 3 player game (like all combat decks... but more so for this one, as the proper combo will drain you out of cards real fast).

Hidden Lurker, Trap, Withering, Compress? Nah... too weak. Followers of Set combat? :) Now THAT would rock. Really... I'd just forget about playing with immortal grapples (except for the press) because I doubt you're going to care if anyone ends combat... You could always do the Tremere, block everything, go to long, theft for two deck. Add some Pulse of Canaille and Governs, and Blood Dolls. Technially a combat deck, but it can bleed someone out too (and its not STEALTH bleed). ~SV

In message <l7on8.103479$ZR2....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> mumbled something about: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:gb2s9usvslfgc59kp...@4ax.com... >> >> One of the "best" fight combos is: >> >> Drawing out the Beast >> Immortal Grapple >> Claws of the Pokey Pokey >> (insert favourite Fortitude prevent card here) >> >It's a very good combo but suffers from a) high average capacity, since rush >decks are usually better with weenies.... Blood Brother combat has the same >problem, but ameliorated very slightly by Unwholesome Bond, and Freak Drive >(which, of course, the Gangrel w/pot deck can also use), and b) too many moving >parts (usually), since once you add in Bum's Rushes and various Potence >goodness, you now have approximately a 6-8 card combo for each vamp you wanna >waste. Oh, you won't win GAMES with this, don't get me wrong. Even if you start trying to Amaranth everything in sight with Angus, and lose the Fortitude prevent unless someone is poking you back, you still will end up hand jammed somewhere and dead. But it sure beats the hell out of vampires real good. (Interestingly, it's got the same problem any decent combat deck does; it can't beat itself.) [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <f987c6cd.0203...@posting.google.com>, vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) mumbled something about: >Hidden Lurker, Trap, Withering, Compress? > >Nah... too weak. Only weak because it requires a block. >Followers of Set combat? :) Now THAT would rock. > >Really... I'd just forget about playing with immortal grapples (except >for the press) because I doubt you're going to care if anyone ends >combat... Immortal Grapple also, however, stops pesky shit like Entombment, Coma, Withering... the list goes on and on. Oh, and it also stops those nasty Brujah from doing things like "Dodge! Blur." If IG were only a simple S:CE hoser, it wouldn't be half so good. >You could always do the Tremere, block everything, go to long, theft >for two deck. Add some Pulse of Canaille and Governs, and Blood Dolls. >Technially a combat deck, but it can bleed someone out too (and its >not STEALTH bleed). And then the Gangrel, Ravnos, or anyone else with ANI play Drawing out the Beast and your Tremere get shredded. Not a viable "kickass combat" option. (The Ravnos have the extra advantage of being able to play Trapparition/DotB superior and kill a full 7-cap, since Apparition can cover the extra hand damage that Song of Serenity can't.) Since it's not stealth bleed, it's got the inherent problem of "What do I do when my prey leaves all his vampires untapped?", which really puts a crimp in most bruise/bleed strategies. The theory goes "I bleed into him, kill all his vamps, then bleed him out next turn with the handful of bleed cards I've cycled into". And that sounds great, and the way it REALLY goes is "I kill his first two guys, and then I don't dare bleed because I'm out of combat cards and he's got two guys left." [ quoted text not captured ]

Johann wrote: >>is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? comments would be welcome :)>> Well, all combat angles are foilable in some way, but as you mentioned, probably the best possible combo to work from is Pot/Pro/Ani--Rush, Draw out the Beast, pump up your strength with Torn Signpost/Increased/Fists, Immortal Grapple, strike with Undead Strength, make your hand damage aggrivated with Bone Spur, prevent most of theirs with Flesh of Marble. The problem with this is if your opponent plays Superior Mettle, you are screwed. Pretty much every "killer" combat combo can be foiled--the Assamites are shut down by Drawing out the Beast. Potence and/or Protean are shut down by Fortitude. Any other combat discipline is mostly useless in the face of the other two strategies mentioned. Basically, the only way to have the "ultimate" combat deck in the environment you mention is to be really lucky and be playing the one that no one else is playing the trump card to. Thus, the obvious answer is the Caitif/Assault rifle deck... Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "We have no pages lefted. It is too deep." -The deeply bizzare and inexplicable error message my junky windows machine at work gave me one day.

On 23 Mar 2002 20:37:02 -0800, mads...@hotmail.com (Johann) wrote: >is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick >any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? >comments would be welcome :) You know you will be facing off against nothing but other combat decks. I assume there isn't any rule against bleeding out your prey, right? Go with the Trujah. Lapse will provide you with nigh-infinite flexability for hosing other combat strategies as you lay down with the Big Fist, and you've got Presence bleeds and more actions than anyone can shake a stick at. They are weakest against the clans that can muster additional strikes, but unless they are playing some kind of serious prevent + additionals you should not have much to fear from the additional-striking smoking-hole-where-that-vampire-used-to-be. David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham

> Basically, the only way to have the "ultimate" combat deck in the environment > you mention is to be really lucky and be playing the one that no one else is > playing the trump card to. Thus, the obvious answer is the Caitif/Assault rifle > deck... Or the Call the Great Beast, TEM PRO THAN deck, come on, like anyone will be packing thoughts betrayed AND prevents... letting your lapsed agg witherings do their work (don't forget that great base bleed and strength for actual ousting and buring weenies with, say assult rifles.) (Oh, and the counter to this is of course Thoughts Betrayed/Prevent/Disarm/ Amaranth Ventrue. Good luck with your blood bath. Cameron, who would play weenie dodge/computer hacking, and claim that he ran out of bums rushes and strike cards.

>We are preparing for a special tournament this april and i'd like to >get some feedback on what deck to use. The tournament is called king >of combat and as the name implies the decks are all combat based, no >sneak bleed no votes. I think you should go with something, cute. Like a nifty trick deck. Either Bloodform or Ex Nihilo + LOTS of Weather Controls should hose just about every other combat deck. Relying on Bloodform and Ex Nihilo should also keep you safe from most other decks (including unpreventable damage). If you can, add Skin of Night, Adaptabilities, Concordance, and/or Heart of Darkness to be able to shrug off any agg damage as well. Just laugh as their agg pokes, Tzimisce agg, 10-damage Potence strikes, or Assamite whatever fail utterly in harming you... Halcyan 2

Yes, there may be. Cailean. Automatically trumps all close range decks, including those with Drawing Out the Beast. The range is simply AT LONG, and I throw a sewer lid + press until you die. Automatically trumps most long range decks. The range is simply AT CLOSE, and I play IG with whatever potence cards would be effective. (Death of My Conscience with Taste of Vitae may be do-able and beats Thoughts Betrayed.) Add Eternal Vigilance, if there aren't any Stealth Bleeds, and you should be able to take down hordes of violent !Anything with your single Archbishop. Of course, Shadow Stepping Lasombra can do the same things if they pay 2 blood and a Shadow Step each time, but most people don't own more than a few copies of SS, hardly enough to build a deck around. Your only fear should be that someone else reads this and then attends, and you have to contest Cailean. (!)

Brian wrote: > > Yes, there may be. > > Cailean. > > Automatically trumps all close range decks, including those with > Drawing Out the Beast. The range is simply AT LONG, and I throw a > sewer lid + press until you die. > > Automatically trumps most long range decks. The range is simply AT > CLOSE, and I play IG with whatever potence cards would be effective. > (Death of My Conscience with Taste of Vitae may be do-able and beats > Thoughts Betrayed.) Mmmm. Let's see, that's Drawing Out the Beast AND unlimited Sewer Lids AND unlimited presses AND IG AND "whatever potence cards would be effective." How large is your hand?!? At this point, I'm thinking you better have Kanimana Belghazi as Calean's partner. ... > Your only fear should be that someone else reads this and then > attends, and you have to contest Cailean. (!) And Muddled with an Ivory Bow, of course. (No Drawing Out the Beasts need apply.) Fred

>We are preparing for a special tournament this april and i'd like to >get some feedback on what deck to use. The tournament is called king >of combat and as the name implies the decks are all combat based, no >sneak bleed no votes. What are the specific rules in place? Without knowing these, I don't think it's possible to come to any conclusion. >A strong contender for this is our local gangrel's potence/protean >deck which features gangrel with potence using immortal grapple, >pushing the limit, and claws...and oh yes the thrice damned drawing >out the beast and some fortitude prevention cards. > >What would be a good way to counter this and any other combat deck for >this amtter? i expect to see a lot of assamites and some lasombra >entombment decks as well :) Illusions of Kindred? Acting - Weather Controls. Reacting - agg + Roetschreck. >is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick >any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? >comments would be welcome I doubt it as the only way to guarantee winning is to have a large multicard combo in hand at every given time. Regardless, the metagame is going to be heavily influenced by the rules in place. Vague guidelines like "no stealth bleed" mean nothing.

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<l7on8.103479$ZR2....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Hi m8,as combat deck my choice is Brujah/!Brujah with CHIMESTRY , so i can play the fabolus card ILLUSIONS OF THE KINDRED. :) . Yes I know that it愀 necesary lots of Master cards of Chimestry ( with 7 /8 is enough ) but i can say u that the effect is AMAZING. Torn Signspot + Immortal + Lighthing Reflexes ( burn all blood if u like , it愀 a illusion of a Kindred :-) )) and if wanna make the FULL JOKE , AMARANTH and Ritual Of Bitter Rose. Well ,HAVE LOTS OF FUN!!!!! Cu all!

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<gb2s9usvslfgc59kp...@4ax.com>... > > Loses to Drawing out the Beast. > > One of the "best" fight combos is: > > Drawing out the Beast > Immortal Grapple > Claws of the Pokey Pokey > (insert favourite Fortitude prevent card here) > > Your option: Prevent, play Anaesthetic Touch, or go to torpor. > > Can be optionally boosted with Torn Signposts and the like, in an effort > to outright burn people and get round Skin of Rock/Resilience. > > Badger, Katarina, Wynn, and Basilia can all do this. > > Basilia has an advantage; she doesn't need Claws. > Wynn has an advantage; he doesn't need a Rush. > Badger has an advantage; he only costs 6. > Katarina has an advantage; she's a Prince. > > If we allow inferior Fortitude, then Zack North, Faruq, and Angus the > Unruly enter the picture. Zack has +1 strength, Angus has +1 strength > and is a Justicar, and Faruq has Dominate. > > If we allow NO Fortitude and hope we don't get poked back, then > Ebaneezer Roush, Nu the Pillar, and Don Cruez all enter the picture. > All these guys have POT, and will do better jacking up their strength > with a Torn Signpost and Taste of Vitae to recover the blood loss from > DotB's strength increase. This is why I´m now trying assamite celerity combat :) (with fortitude) Try drawing out my beast if I´ve got +1 strength already and a hand packing blurs, preventions and lucky blows/scorpions touch/whatever Always nice to have a few tastes of death to let those that run away feel my wrath (Ok so Assamite combat isn´t the best, but it sure is devastating :) )

Johann wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Might be possible to do some fun with 3 Matthias, 3 Blance Hill, 2 Omaya, 2 Tegyrius and 2 Lazverinus. Lots of prevent, a healthy amount of Blood Dolls, one Depravity, some Clan Impersonation, Eagles Sight combined with more intercept, wakes and Fast Reaction. Add Renewed Vigor, Repulsion, Dawn Operation, Anestethic Touch and maneouver. Might add some Freak Drives if you feel this is too slow. By the way, without heavy bleed Blood Dolls should be the preferred alternative to Minion Tap. Sten During

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<gb2s9usvslfgc59kp...@4ax.com>... > In message <b57b2dc9.02032...@posting.google.com>, > wb...@hotmail.com (Daz) mumbled something about: > > >mads...@hotmail.com (Johann) wrote in message news:<d8262103.02032...@posting.google.com>... > >> is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick > >> any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? > >> comments would be welcome :) > >> > One of the "best" fight combos is: > > Drawing out the Beast > Immortal Grapple > Claws of the Pokey Pokey > (insert favourite Fortitude prevent card here) > > Your option: Prevent, play Anaesthetic Touch, or go to torpor. > > Can be optionally boosted with Torn Signposts and the like, in an effort > to outright burn people and get round Skin of Rock/Resilience. > > Badger, Katarina, Wynn, and Basilia can all do this. > > Basilia has an advantage; she doesn't need Claws. > Wynn has an advantage; he doesn't need a Rush. > Badger has an advantage; he only costs 6. > Katarina has an advantage; she's a Prince. > > If we allow inferior Fortitude, then Zack North, Faruq, and Angus the > Unruly enter the picture. Zack has +1 strength, Angus has +1 strength > and is a Justicar, and Faruq has Dominate. > > If we allow NO Fortitude and hope we don't get poked back, then > Ebaneezer Roush, Nu the Pillar, and Don Cruez all enter the picture. > All these guys have POT, and will do better jacking up their strength > with a Torn Signpost and Taste of Vitae to recover the blood loss from > DotB's strength increase. What about based on Wynn, pot/pro/ANI/for. There are quite a few guys with these disciplines and grapple is not going to needed for every combat (so, bear paw?). In this environment you don't have to care about running out of combat cards and clumping on other crap....there won't be any. Like 8-10 masters and almost all the rest combat should do it. Combats look like assortment of these cards: Wynn- Terror Frenzy Trap Drawing out the Beast Carrion Crows Song of Serenity(I dont think so actually..forget these) Flesh of Marble Bone Spur Skin of night Immortal Grapple Scorpion Sting Skin of Steel/Rock Taste of Vitae Freak drive Ambush Freak Drive Bums Rush Freak Drive Visit the Haven (obviously this wont be happening all the time, i simply try to illustrate the potential with a ludicrous example). Possibly some restorations too. Masters, hmmm. Couple of blood dolls, Potence/ani. dis. (hand of Conrad?), like four havens and maybe some cards to get Wynn out faster? I built a deck along these lines once (build up to our playgroups very first tourney) to test our decks against stupidly focused strategies...it punished a *lot* of vamps. The problems lie in getting ratios so that the deck function smoothly (oh, and in having any cards at the end of the game). range is not a consideration most of the time (set effects not withstanding) thoughts? i only have _one_ thought;) So who cares about dominate. Grapple...woohoo! Combat ends and related...never happen mate. Actually, any non-hand strike....in your dreams. Like I said though, the deck would be stoopidly focused and will never probably oust beyond your first VP unless you are extremely lucky. Sounds like just what this tournament needs. -Mudz

> is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? Gabrin. BJ, The Young Turk of Madison

In message <b57b2dc9.02032...@posting.google.com>, wb...@hotmail.com (Daz) mumbled something about: >This is why I´m now trying assamite celerity combat :) (with >fortitude) Try drawing out my beast if I´ve got +1 strength already >and a hand packing blurs, preventions and lucky blows/scorpions >touch/whatever I play Skin of Steel. So much for your Blur, Lucky Blow, Scorpion's Touch, and all the rest. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Johann" <mads...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d8262103.02032...@posting.google.com... [snip] > is there such a thing as the ultimate combat deck? one that can kick > any combat deck's @ss assuming there are no stealth bleeds and such? > comments would be welcome :) > Yes, but it's clunky. You need 2 minions per combat. First minion goes in with a stealthed Mind of a Child, second minion then lays the smack down with a burn effect: Burning Wrath-Decapitate (-Ritual of the Bitter rose for bonus points). All you have to worry about is Fake Out and the oppenent playing Rotschreck on himself to avoid the pyre. Hands of Conrad, Dementation skill cards, Larry, Vasentessa and I never said it was easy to pull off. mattgreen -there is no gray, only grey. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

How about Cailean Carrion Crows/Thrown Sewer Lid deck with dominate masters and thoughts betrayed :)? If you have those three cards in hand and some taste of vitaes there is nothing that can kill cailean... Maybe some long range agra equipment, but canine horde or drawing out the beast can take care of that.

> Immortal Grapple also, however, stops pesky shit like Entombment, Coma, > Withering... the list goes on and on. Oh, and it also stops those nasty > Brujah from doing things like "Dodge! Blur." I thought Withering was considered a hand strike from the "strenght damage" portion.

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes. The thn and THN effects are hand strikes. The ani effect (1R damage) is not a hand strike, of course. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

I am not sure if it qualifies for "combat deck" but i always like to see people base their deck on aggro-damage when i am playing allies... something that can play thaumaturgy for walks (probably not that good) something that does a lot of damage (Garou/Muddled/those NEC beasts!!!! especially the last ones, with a fair amount of memories... at least its something else then the rest.... All combat (but weathercontrol) is beaten (when blocking) by aggro rotschreck i guess (especially if it is aggro handdamage in play, such as Basilia or that Tzimleader...) Maybe that Tzim leader is best...many intercept and eaglesight to block your prey, aggrorotschreck play some pulses to speed up when he is out of vamps... Wouter

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<s52u9u4ice141pkeo...@4ax.com>... > > I play Skin of Steel. > > So much for your Blur, Lucky Blow, Scorpion's Touch, and all the rest. Then I´d psyche!, or possibly play the unpreventable close range quietus strike :) No matter what your deck does, my deck can always counter it, and then you can counter my counter and so on. That´s the beauty of V:Tes :)

>All combat (but weathercontrol) is beaten (when blocking) by aggro >rotschreck i guess (especially if it is aggro handdamage in play, such >as Basilia or that Tzimleader...) Yeah, I think Weather Control combat is the hardest to beat. When you're the acting minion you can pretty much guarantee success. The only real way I've found to hose WC combat is if they manage to Mind of a Child you and then attack you. (Then again, Mind of a Child shuts down any discipline deck). Also, WC combat might be a bit hampered if they are reacting (are attacked) and the opposing minion plays something like Terror Frenzy, but the WC still works (though a bit less effectively). Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020325183158...@mb-mv.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Flesh of Marble?

In message <b57b2dc9.02032...@posting.google.com>, wb...@hotmail.com (Daz) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<s52u9u4ice141pkeo...@4ax.com>... >> >> I play Skin of Steel. >> >> So much for your Blur, Lucky Blow, Scorpion's Touch, and all the rest. > >Then I悲 psyche!, or possibly play the unpreventable close range >quietus strike :) Then I play Skin of Steel *again*, after the Psyche! Actually, I play Rolling with the Punches, because at superior it looks just like SoS, and at inferior it cycles for free when you're picking on the Ventrue who punch for 1 a lot. >No matter what your deck does, my deck can always counter it, and then >you can counter my counter and so on. That愀 the beauty of V:Tes :) Except that Vascular Explosion doesn't work under Immortal Grapple. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> Yeah, I think Weather Control combat is the hardest to beat. When you're >the >> acting minion you can pretty much guarantee success. >> >> The only real way I've found to hose WC combat is if they manage to Mind >of a >> Child you and then attack you. (Then again, Mind of a Child shuts down any >> discipline deck). Also, WC combat might be a bit hampered if they are >reacting >> (are attacked) and the opposing minion plays something like Terror Frenzy, >but >> the WC still works (though a bit less effectively). > >Flesh of Marble? Flesh of Marble prevents damage. Weather Control damage cannot be prevented. Poor little Gangrels get struck by lightning. Sorry. ='( Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020325202612...@mb-md.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Ah my bad memory strikes again... Does the jyhad version say reduce instead of prevent?

The Emperor <theem...@chello.se> wrote in message news:viRn8.70$cq.2...@news01.chello.se... [ quoted text not captured ] Interesting point. FoM says "all damage is reduced to 1". There is no stated prevent here, just a reduction. Is a reduction the same as prevention? LSJ?

>> Ah my bad memory strikes again... Does the jyhad version say reduce >instead >> of prevent? > > >Interesting point. FoM says "all damage is reduced to 1". There is no >stated prevent here, just a reduction. Is a reduction the same as >prevention? LSJ? I think that question was what eventually caused it to be changed to a prevention card. Halcyan 2

> > What are the specific rules in place? Without knowing these, I don't think > it's possible to come to any conclusion. > > > I doubt it as the only way to guarantee winning is to have a large multicard > combo in hand at every given time. Regardless, the metagame is going to be > heavily influenced by the rules in place. Vague guidelines like "no stealth > bleed" mean nothing. here are the tourny details: KING OF COMBAT CHAMPIONSHIP April 13, 2002 Comic Central Headquarters (CCHQ) 10am - 6pm Standard Constructed 3 + 1F rounds Entry Fee: P150 (roughly 3 dollars) This is your opportunity to prove that you're the best in combat. No bleed decks, no politics, no interceptors... just pure and bloody smash and bash. Will the Assamites finally win? Will the Brujah dominate again? Or will an unlikely clan like the Nagaraja be crowned KING? THE RULES: A Methuselah gets 1 Combat Point for each vampire he/she sends to torpor (through combat), or 3 Combat Points for each vampire he/she burns (in combat). Half a point will be awarded for burning allies. The Methuselah who gets the most points in a table will be awarded a table win. Victory Points will be secondary to Combat Points for the tournament. THE PRIZES: 1) FULL BRAGGING RIGHTS AS THE MOST DANGEROUS KINDRED IN THE COUNTRY! 2) CUSTOM-BUILT TROPHY FOR THE CHAMPION 3) CERTIFICATES FOR THE TOP 5 PLAYERS 4) BOOSTER PACKS (maybe... but who cares?!?) the strongest comabt deck in our play group right now happens to be the gangrel potence deck i mentioned, drawing out the beast, immmortal, hand or potence strike, aggro claw, fortitude prevent i love the asamites but they are stopped cold by drawing out the beast/immortal grapple (cant go long, cant dodge if close range) sideslip helps prevent 1 point but that's out if he does more than 1 point aggro damage ah well :) thin blood is great tho (2 points damage before majesty/claws/entomb) still burning the midnight oil johann

zar...@hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_Sarvij=E4rvi?=) wrote in message news:<3d0f0503.02032...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, i recently played my gangrel warzone deck agaisnt a Cailean long range deck and Cailean was just crunchy under my teeth ;) Me (Wynn) : Carrion Crows, Flesh of Marble, Drawing out The Beast, Conquer the Beast Cailean : Carrion Crows, disguized Flamethrower/Sewer Lid Cailean take 3 pts/round, i take one, that I can turn in normal (if agg) with a simple skin of night. He can't use equipement because of the DotB (no matter if he's at long range, the other effects are still here :) ), for the same reason he can't stop the Conquer The Beast/Trap with a press. He can't prevent all my dmgs, but I prevent all but one.... finish him with a Body Flare and you can ee that Cailean is not really unbeatable by a gangrel ANI/PRO/for

"Johann" <mads...@hotmail.com> wrote > > THE RULES: A Methuselah gets 1 Combat Point for each vampire he/she > sends to > torpor (through combat), or 3 Combat Points for each vampire he/she > burns > (in combat). Half a point will be awarded for burning allies. The > Methuselah > who gets the most points in a table will be awarded a table win. > Victory > Points will be secondary to Combat Points for the tournament. Based on the 3 points for burning vampires, I would say you should try the following combo: Leather Jacket/prevent --> Disarm --> Amaranth Have a lot of votey vampires to survive the ensuing bloodhunt votes. I used a Ventrue+Potence deck with this idea in JOL167 and it performed admirably. Now, you have a whole slew of new pot/for vampires to play with. Of course, all you really need is inferior potence and a way to prevent... Cheers, WES

Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3C9EB770...@removethis.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Hmm.. you should try Cailean + Mark V + Ghoul Retainer + FlameThrower. Cailean + Ghoul Retainer + Flamethrower does quite nicely too.. that 2 points of aggravated at range as _enviromental damage_ will put most of opponents to sleep. There is two card deck for you:). Simply pack dodges or majesties (Cailean has sup PRE) to evade of those long range decks when they play nasty. But everything else is just extra (eternal vigilance, sportsbike, raven spy, majesties and a couple of obfuscates to fetch that ghoul retainer and a couple of hidden weapons to fetch those weapons.) Jukka

>THE RULES: A Methuselah gets 1 Combat Point for each vampire he/she >sends to >torpor (through combat), or 3 Combat Points for each vampire he/she >burns >(in combat). Half a point will be awarded for burning allies. The >Methuselah >who gets the most points in a table will be awarded a table win. >Victory >Points will be secondary to Combat Points for the tournament. I assume that CPs are carried over a la VPs as a tiebreaker. If not, preventing everyone else from taking minions down is much more viable. I'd consider a Tzimisce, Eagle Sight, Roetschreck deck. They get nothing for Kiss of Raing, so there's no fear of trying to block. They've got Reform Body, which might actually get played. Whether tis nobler in the game to burn minions or not seems a bit complicated and situation dependent, but Tzimisce can pull it off at times without getting too complicated. Probably pack a few Blood of Acids to help pull this off.

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote in message news:20020324174852...@mb-fe.aol.com... > Basically, the only way to have the "ultimate" combat deck in the environment > you mention is to be really lucky and be playing the one that no one else is > playing the trump card to. Thus, the obvious answer is the Caitif/Assault rifle > deck... Or Cailean/Carrion Crows/Trap. Aid from Bats maybe. Be nice if he had some way to avoid getting capped by other people's long-range combat too. Majesty maybe, just in case. Lasombra can avoid DotB/Grapple with Shadow Step, too, but they don't have much good to do at long range. Sewer Lids maybe. Caitiff/Assault Rifle is probably a bad idea just because the Rifles are too expensive, but Caitiff/ .44 Magnum or Saturday Night Special might actually be a workable "unexpected" combat deck. :-) Josh just a teenage dirtbag baby

The limiting factor in such a tournament will, I think, be number of available targets. I would play a caitiff deck with ~100 caitiff, about a third julius, and a goodly number of Uriah winters. Hmm, "Pandermonium" 100 assorted caitiff and pander 30 Julius 1 Corine Marcon (VIC, +1 hand damage) 1 Lambach (VIC, +1 hand damage, burn a blood for agg.) 10 Haven Uncovered 10 Succubus Clubs 5 Recruitments 10 flak jackets 30 Reform body 30 random VIC/ANI combat cards. Basically, trade people caitiff as targets. In exchange for a chance to kill one of your pander, you make them take julius from you so you can have him rush one of your tzimisce. If your tzmisce isn't up, give him another pander to bring your guy out of torpor so he can rush. The key to this plan is: within a given game, you make fewer kills than the people you are trading with. Be generous. But, over a 3-4 round tournament, you average more points per game than anyone, because all of your games are high kill games. As a bonus, the final round is likely to consist of people who are willing to negotiate with you, as they'll have higher averages as well. Of course, now that I've described things, it wouldn't work as well. But, I can't go to the tournament anyway. Have Fun! Cy Myers

> Mmmm. Let's see, that's Drawing Out the Beast AND unlimited Sewer Lids > AND unlimited presses AND IG AND "whatever potence cards would be > effective." How large is your hand?!? At this point, I'm thinking you > better have Kanimana Belghazi as Calean's partner. Cailean would /beat/ Drawing Out the Beast, not /play/ it. This deck would contain no copies of Drawing Out the Beast. The presses come free with the Sewer Lids (3R with an optional press) because Cailean has superior Potence. If your hand is 2 Sewer Lid, 1 Taste, 1 Death of My Conscience, 1 IG, the other 2 can be whatever (masters, untap, more combat etc.) and you'd probably kill most vamps. I wouldn't expect many presses to end in this environment, except from maybe Flash...but that only prolongs the inevitable. They will eventually have to fight you, and they will never be able to catch you. Even if everyone runs out of cards, Cailean still sets range. > > Your only fear should be that someone else reads this and then > > attends, and you have to contest Cailean. (!) > > And Muddled with an Ivory Bow, of course. (No Drawing Out the Beasts > need apply.) Hmm...I never thought about first strike agg usable at close or range, but if your crypt is 6 Cailean and 6 disposable weenies, you could block it. Or add Majesty. (I'd probably go with 8 Leather Jackets in this sort of tourney.) And if Cailean has Eternal Vigilanc, Cat's Guidance, Raven Spy, and/or intercept masters at his disposal, how exactly did the Muddled get the Ivory Bow in the first place?

mads...@hotmail.com (Johann) wrote in message news:<d8262103.02032...@posting.google.com>... > We are preparing for a special tournament this april and i'd like to > get some feedback on what deck to use. The tournament is called king > of combat and as the name implies the decks are all combat based, no > sneak bleed no votes. > I'd consider thaum. Use minions with for/aus/tha. You'll need some skill cards either way, but here's the possible cast: Vincent Day Marlene Muaziz Cardano Ulugh Beg Bindusara Gwendolyn You have aus for intercept and eagle sight for extra combats. You have for, which gives minor damage provention and presses. You have thaum, which you can do a bunch with. So let's do it all :) Thefts 1st round are very efficient. Non damage blood loss. Hidden strength takes away the need to manuever for the most part. Blood->water + walk of flame = dead minions kthxbye. If you're blocking, you can burst of sunlight and rotschreck. You've got the DOM for TB if you want it, but I wouldn't bother. You might want a few dominate kines to go steal someones HG. I've done this deck with just cardano and ulugh beg. Under these rules I'd use: 6 Cardano 6 Ulugh Beg Master 22 6 Blood doll 6 Fortitude 4 Rotschreck 2 Barrens 1 Giants Blood 1 Golconda 1 Academic HG 1 DotS Minion 68 6 2nd tradition 10 4 Eagle sight 4 Anathema 8 4 Archon 9 Theft of Vitae 50 15 Hidden Strength 7 Blood to Water 7 Walk of Flame 7 Flash 5 Burst of Sunlight

mpm...@attbi.com (Shaun McIsaac) wrote in message news:<818c12c2.02032...@posting.google.com>... > mads...@hotmail.com (Johann) wrote in message news:<d8262103.02032...@posting.google.com>... > > We are preparing for a special tournament this april and i'd like to > > get some feedback on what deck to use. The tournament is called king > > of combat and as the name implies the decks are all combat based, no > > sneak bleed no votes. > > > > I'd consider thaum. Good against fortitude, not so good against potence. If you're going to use THA, CEL/THA might be a better idea. Maneuvers, additional strikes, dodges, etc. > Use minions with for/aus/tha. You'll need some skill cards either > way, but here's the possible cast: for/dom/tha would be better. > You have aus for intercept and eagle sight for extra combats. What in gods name are you wasting cards on intercept for? How are they going to help you? If all the other decks are combat decks, you really don't need to bother intercepting them. > You have for, which gives minor damage provention and presses. True, this is good. > You have thaum, which you can do a bunch with. So let's do it all :) Eh. Not such a good idea. Focusing on one thing with THA generally yields higher percentage results. > Thefts 1st round are very efficient. Non damage blood loss. Hidden True. > strength takes away the need to manuever for the most part. > Blood->water + walk of flame = dead minions kthxbye. Generally pretty good, but expensive, and can get screwed by a lot of other standard combat. > If you're blocking, you can burst of sunlight and rotschreck. Beh. For an all combat tournament, I wouldn't bother blocking. > You've got the DOM for TB if you want it, but I wouldn't bother. You > might want a few dominate kines to go steal someones HG. Do people really put hunting grounds in combat decks? Whatever for? > I've done this deck with just cardano and ulugh beg. Under these > rules I'd use: > > > 6 Cardano > 6 Ulugh Beg > > Master 22 > 6 Blood doll > 6 Fortitude > 4 Rotschreck > 2 Barrens > 1 Giants Blood > 1 Golconda > 1 Academic HG > 1 DotS That's a few too many masters for most decks, and definitely too many without a Parthenon. Why the HG, and not an Arcane Library? Why all the FOR skill cards? Ulugh Beg is the only one that needs them, and he definitely doesn't need 6. > Minion 68 > 6 2nd tradition 10 > 4 Eagle sight > > 4 Anathema 8 Heh. Funny, though I'm not sure how high percentage it is. > 4 Archon If you don't pass these (i.e. get intercepted or don't have vote lock), do you have any alternate plans (aside from the few intercept cards) on how to get into combat? > 9 Theft of Vitae 50 Seems a little low. > 15 Hidden Strength Not bad, but much funnier with Ankara Citadel. I'd think some Skin of Steel/Superior Mettle might be worthwhile. A few Traps or something wouldn't hurt either. > 7 Blood to Water > 7 Walk of Flame Only 7 burned minions? :) > 7 Flash > 5 Burst of Sunlight You could do without the Burst of Sunlight and the Rotschreck, for starters. That, and removing a few Hidden Strength would free up some room for more useful stuff. Ankara Citadel, Turkey would be a good addition. Along with a Magic of the Smith or two. Xian

> > > Your only fear should be that someone else reads this and then > > > attends, and you have to contest Cailean. (!) > > > > And Muddled with an Ivory Bow, of course. (No Drawing Out the Beasts > > need apply.) > > Hmm...I never thought about first strike agg usable at close or range, > but if your crypt is 6 Cailean and 6 disposable weenies, you could > block it. Or add Majesty. (I'd probably go with 8 Leather Jackets in > this sort of tourney.) Friggin' DUH! Although Tzimisce with Breath of the Dragon and Chiropteran Marauder could still be quite the bitch, the Muddled is no problem with just one Immortal Grapple! Ignoring the obvious, --Brian

Go with Gangrel antitribu. Bum's Rush/Ambush into combat. Use Earth Meld to end combat and untap. A second vampire Hidden Lurker's, and during the first round, while the opposing minion can make no strikes, does any Protean agg. damage attack followed by Amaranth (pack a Body Flare or two for Caliean or anyone else that maneuvers to long during that first round). Vote support is tough, I've used this deck with Daliyah and Wren for the Hidden Lurker to make their loss to the blood hunt less painful (if you've got Ritual of the Bitter Rose in hand, it can make their loss much less painful, especially when you Blood Doll or Minion Tap your surviving minions the next round). Five of the !Gangrel have Auspex, so you can use this trick with Fast Reaction and Monique or Caitlin, to take care of incoming Bum's Rushes. If someone Immortal Grapples to prevent Earth Meld, let them. Whip out the Wolf Claws and Flesh of Marble whatever massive potence stuff they pile on you. JSpektr-I've played this deck, it works well but has trouble ousting in a normal game, in an all-combat game it should do quite well.

In message <196f2577.02032...@posting.google.com>, jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about: >Go with Gangrel antitribu. > >Bum's Rush/Ambush into combat. Use Earth Meld to end combat and untap. >A second vampire Hidden Lurker's, and during the first round, while Hidden Lurker is only playable if someone blocks the Bum's Rush... which nobody will do after the first Hidden Lurker hits the table. [ quoted text not captured ]

"jspektr" wrote > Go with Gangrel antitribu. > Bum's Rush/Ambush into combat. Use Earth Meld to end combat and untap. > A second vampire Hidden Lurker's, and during the first round, while > the opposing minion can make no strikes, does any Protean agg. damage > attack followed by Amaranth (pack a Body Flare or two for Caliean or > anyone else that maneuvers to long during that first round). > Vote support is tough, I've used this deck with Daliyah and Wren for > the Hidden Lurker to make their loss to the blood hunt less painful > (if you've got Ritual of the Bitter Rose in hand, it can make their > loss much less painful, especially when you Blood Doll or Minion Tap > your surviving minions the next round). Vote support is pointless. You are playing with Gangrel Antitribu, use Gangrel Conspiracy. Cancel the Bloodhunt completely with no pool cost to yourself. Gangrel Conspiracy [Sabbat, SW] Cardtype: Master Clan: Gangrel antitribu Master: out-of-turn. Cancel a blood hunt called on a Gangrel antitribu. You may play this card during your turn. http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/gangrelconspiracy.htm http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/emp.htm Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On 29 Mar 2002 09:20:18 -0800, xb...@qwest.net (Xian) wrote: >Do people really put hunting grounds in combat decks? Whatever for? Hey, I'm in *no way* advocating that HGs are great or that they belong in a lot of decks. Let's just get that clear right up front. But, I have used them, and I've used them in combat decks. If your combat angle is "I take it on the jaw and taste it back," well, you can't taste if you're going to torpor. Sometimes your combat will fail you, and a HG means, as the name implies, you won't have to waste an action hunting. If your Kung-Fu is strong, that will probably be "minion action = some vampire gets erased." The two pool is starting to not look like much of an investment. And, frankly, what else are you using your MP's *for*? My other answer is "Nu gives me butterflies in my stomach," and you need just about every means available to pile blood back on this guy, but I guess that's not as close to an actual argument. => David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:3ca5e534...@news.intrex.net... > On 29 Mar 2002 09:20:18 -0800, xb...@qwest.net (Xian) wrote: > >Do people really put hunting grounds in combat decks? Whatever for? > > Hey, I'm in *no way* advocating that HGs are great or that they > belong in a lot of decks. Let's just get that clear right up front. Heh. Okay. :) > But, I have used them, and I've used them in combat decks. If your I'm sure I've used them in combat decks too, but I have trouble imagining putting one in a Tremere combat deck, especially. I mean...Theft of Vitae... > combat angle is "I take it on the jaw and taste it back," well, you > can't taste if you're going to torpor. Sometimes your combat will All too true. > fail you, and a HG means, as the name implies, you won't have to waste > an action hunting. If your Kung-Fu is strong, that will probably be > "minion action = some vampire gets erased." The two pool is starting > to not look like much of an investment. And, frankly, what else are > you using your MP's *for*? Blood Doll, and moving 1 pool to the vampire if it's at 0 blood? Assuming you only have to do this twice in a game (stretching, I know...I usually have to do it 3 or 4 times), it's as expensive or cheaper than a HG, and with added benefits if you get more blood on the vampire with Taste. Dreams of the Sphinx, Barrens, Haven Uncovered, skill cards? :) > My other answer is "Nu gives me butterflies in my stomach," and you > need just about every means available to pile blood back on this guy, > but I guess that's not as close to an actual argument. => Hehe. No, that isn't really. I keep meaning to make a deck for him, but it hasn't happened yet. Josh inspired me, though, so sometime soon. After I rip apart a few other decks. Xian

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<f5oaaug6pdt2vgi20...@4ax.com>... > In message <196f2577.02032...@posting.google.com>, > jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about: > > >Go with Gangrel antitribu. > > > >Bum's Rush/Ambush into combat. Use Earth Meld to end combat and untap. > >A second vampire Hidden Lurker's, and during the first round, while > > Hidden Lurker is only playable if someone blocks the Bum's Rush... which > nobody will do after the first Hidden Lurker hits the table. Oooooh yeah. My bad. Now that you mention it, I remember that's exactly what happened last time I played that deck. So go with the Fast Reactions instead. Monique, Caitlin, Omaya, Ellen Fence and Genevieve all have Auspex and Animalism, most have Animalism at superior. Intercept, SCE, and Fast Reaction with agg. Since the point of the tournament is to kill other vampires, you'll have plenty of actions from your predator and prey to block. JSpektr

David wrote: >>And, frankly, what else are you using your MP's *for*?>> Haven Uncovered Fame Potence skill cards Blood Dolls Hand cycling masters (Dreams, Fragment, Barrens, whatever) Those all will win out, in terms of both card play and deck design, over hunting grounds. Or most other master cards, for that matter. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "We have no pages lefted. It is too deep." -The deeply bizzare and inexplicable error message my junky windows machine at work gave me one day.

On 30 Mar 2002 18:57:46 GMT, pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote: >Haven Uncovered >Fame >Potence skill cards >Blood Dolls >Hand cycling masters (Dreams, Fragment, Barrens, whatever) > >Those all will win out, in terms of both card play and deck design, over >hunting grounds. Or most other master cards, for that matter. I'd never forego any of the above entirely for a HG, but it's certainly possible to reduce the number of duplicates and make room for one. As Xian pointed out, the HG could very, very easily get you back the two you paid instead of pushing through the Blood Dolls. Also, I know you've got the rep for the weenie potence thing, of course, but I've done without the Havens and the Skill cards in plenty of viable combat decks, so that makes for a little more room. [ quoted text not captured ]

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:3ca787ff....@news.intrex.net... > for one. As Xian pointed out, the HG could very, very easily get you > back the two you paid instead of pushing through the Blood Dolls. Of course, I also forgot to point out that I also usually take back more than the amount I push onto my vampires, so in the long run, I usually have a positive net return from just Blood Dolls without Hunting Grounds. :) Xian