Therbold Realty + Palatial Estate

Hello LSJ, Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location until the action is successful and cost has already been paid. If I have Guillaume Giovanni in play, and one of my minions with fortitude gets a Palatial Estate, and then I draw a freak drive from the hand size increase granted by Guillaume, may I immediately play that freak drive? I think the answer is yes, because Guillaume's effect occurs once the location is in play, which is before (or during) the timing window for Freak Drive. Thanks, Ira Name: Guillaume Giovanni [LotN:PG2] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Giovanni Group: 4 Capacity: 9 Discipline: obt CEL DOM NEC POT Independent: While Guillaume is ready, you get +1 hand size for each location you control. Guillaume gets +1 stealth on recruit and employ actions. Name: Freak Drive [Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:U/PV2, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PA2, Third:U, LotN:PR] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Fortitude [for] Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action). This vampire untaps. [FOR] As above, but usable even if the action is blocked (play after combat, if any).

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > Hello LSJ, > > Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any > other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location > until the action is successful and cost has already been paid. Yes, it does reduce the blood cost of the PE. > If I have Guillaume Giovanni in play, and one of my minions with > fortitude gets a Palatial Estate, and then I draw a freak drive from > the hand size increase granted by Guillaume, may I immediately play > that freak drive? I think the answer is yes, because Guillaume's > effect occurs once the location is in play, which is before (or > during) the timing window for Freak Drive. Yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

Hello LSJ, On Jan 4, 5:09 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote: > Name: Guillaume Giovanni > [LotN:PG2] > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Giovanni > Group: 4 > Capacity: 9 > Discipline: obt CEL DOM NEC POT > Independent: While Guillaume is ready, you get +1 hand size for each > location you control. Guillaume gets +1 stealth on recruit and employ > actions. If I contest a unique location, does my hand size go up from Guillaume before the contest takes hold? I think the answer is no, because the card is immediately contested as it enters play, I never actually control it, and therefore Guillaume's text doesn't trigger. >> Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any >> other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location >> until the action is successful and cost has already been paid. > > Yes, it does reduce the blood cost of the PE. That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ? Thanks, Ira

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > Hello LSJ, > > On Jan 4, 5:09 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Name: Guillaume Giovanni >> [LotN:PG2] >> Cardtype: Vampire >> Clan: Giovanni >> Group: 4 >> Capacity: 9 >> Discipline: obt CEL DOM NEC POT >> Independent: While Guillaume is ready, you get +1 hand size for each >> location you control. Guillaume gets +1 stealth on recruit and employ >> actions. > > If I contest a unique location, does my hand size go up from Guillaume > before the contest takes hold? I think the answer is no, because the > card is immediately contested as it enters play, I never actually > control it, and therefore Guillaume's text doesn't trigger. Correct. >>> Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any >>> other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location >>> until the action is successful and cost has already been paid. >> Yes, it does reduce the blood cost of the PE. > > That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or > blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought > Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was > actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ? It works because PE is a location.

On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or > > blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought > > Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was > > actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ? > > It works because PE is a location. I understand the ruling clearly, so thank you for that. I'm still confused about the logic behind the ruling, though. If you care to indulge this conversation and attempt to provide insight into the reason behind the ruling, then: What if there were a card, "Search your library for a location and put it in play (pay cost as normal.)" In that case, could I fetch Palatial Estate? I'm almost sure the answer is no, in the same way that Jake Washington isn't an ally in the library or ash heap. If that's correct, then Palatial Estate isn't always a location, and at some point it becomes a location. When does it change from equipment to location? It seems strange to me that the conversion would occur before cost is paid (maybe as cost is paid?) Thanks, Ira

[ quoted text not captured ] I'll take a shot at it. Palatial Estate: This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as equipment while in play. The vampire with this location gains 1 blood during each of your master phases (ignore excess blood). It changes from 'equipment' to 'location' as soon as it is 'in play', i.e as soon as the action to equip it succeeds. Rulebook 6.1.3: "If the action is successful, the equipment card is placed on the minion (and the cost, if any, is paid)." So the point where the cost is paid is simultaneous with it changing from equipment to location, looks like - you cannot pay the cost until the card is being placed on the minion, at which point it's a location and is reduced by Therbold. (Especially if you view the sentence as 'put the card on the minion, and then pay the cost' as a sequential pair of events, in which case Therbold reducing it is obvious.) > > Thanks, > Ira -John Flournoy

John Flournoy wrote: > On Jan 7, 9:02 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> > > This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as > equipment while in play. I think this is the key clause. It's always a location, but when in play, it is not an equipment. Compare to Jake W: Jake Washington (Hunter) [FN:R2] Cardtype: Master Unique master. Put this card in play. While in play, this card represents a mortal ally with 1 life, 0 strength and 0 bleed <and doesn't count as a master card>. During your untap phase, you may burn Jake to move up to 4 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire with no blood. He is only an ally while in play, but the rest of the time, he is a Master. I think that is the functional difference. In other words, if there was a card that allowed you to go through your lib and find locations, you could find loquipment, since loquipment is always a location, and when it is in play, it is *not* equipment. best - chris -- Super Fun Cards http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/ auct...@superfuncards.com

In message <BfEgj.35664$yV5....@newsfe15.phx>, librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> writes: >John Flournoy wrote: >> On Jan 7, 9:02 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count >>as >> equipment while in play. > >I think this is the key clause. It's always a location, but when in >play, it is not an equipment. LSJ has previously ruled otherwise. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc40dfe572592c72 [LSJ 19971020] *** Loquipment is just equipment when it isn't in play (and is just location when it is in play). *** The card text of Palatial Estate (the card used in the example) at the time was: "This equipment card represents a unique location." It didn't have the "does not count as equipment" disclaimer. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

ira...@gmail.com schrieb: > On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>> That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or >>> blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought >>> Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was >>> actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ? >> It works because PE is a location. > > What if there were a card, "Search your library for a location and put > it in play (pay cost as normal.)" In that case, could I fetch > Palatial Estate? I'm almost sure the answer is no, in the same way > that Jake Washington isn't an ally in the library or ash heap. I think for the cost part the explanation of John is pretty good. So the answer to this question would be no. Else you wouldn´t be able to fetch the palatial with a Magic of the Smith, which I have seen happen many times (of course those could have been misplays). -- Johannes Walch

> I think for the cost part the explanation of John is pretty good. So the > answer to this question would be no. Else you wouldn´t be able to fetch > the palatial with a Magic of the Smith, which I have seen happen many > times (of course those could have been misplays). > > -- > Johannes Walch following your message, if frederick the weak take the Vast Wealth action and the first equipment that shows is palatial: 1.- palatial is not an aquipment and will seqarch for the first equipment (as you say) 2.- palatial is an equipment, frederick equip with it and you win the game (because rules 18.9.4 "About Frederick the weak and special game win clauses") the first does not make any sense to me... LSJ please?

Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex) wrote: > if frederick the weak take the Vast Wealth > action and the first equipment that shows is palatial: > > 1.- palatial is not an aquipment and will seqarch for the first > equipment (as you say) > > 2.- palatial is an equipment, frederick equip with it and you win the > game (because rules 18.9.4 "About Frederick the weak and special game > win clauses") > > the first does not make any sense to me... LSJ please? The set-up statement "first equipment is palatial" answers the question. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7001ea3f7803baf5

> > What if there were a card, "Search your library for a location and put > > it in play (pay cost as normal.)" In that case, could I fetch > > Palatial Estate? I'm almost sure the answer is no, in the same way > > that Jake Washington isn't an ally in the library or ash heap. > > > If that's correct, then Palatial Estate isn't always a location, and > > at some point it becomes a location. When does it change from > > equipment to location? It seems strange to me that the conversion > > would occur before cost is paid (maybe as cost is paid?) > I'll take a shot at it. > > Palatial Estate: > > This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as > equipment while in play. The vampire with this location gains 1 blood > during each of your master phases (ignore excess blood). > > It changes from 'equipment' to 'location' as soon as it is 'in play', > i.e as soon as the action to equip it succeeds. > > Rulebook 6.1.3: "If the action is successful, the equipment card is > placed on the minion (and the cost, if any, is paid)." > > So the point where the cost is paid is simultaneous with it changing > from equipment to location, looks like - you cannot pay the cost until > the card is being placed on the minion, at which point it's a location > and is reduced by Therbold. > > (Especially if you view the sentence as 'put the card on the minion, > and then pay the cost' as a sequential pair of events, in which case > Therbold reducing it is obvious.) Does Marie Faucigny's special ("Non-weapon equipment cards cost her 1 less blood or pool to equip.") reduce the cost of loquipment? I have always assumed so, but now I'm not sure. If her special and TR both do so, then at the moment the cost is paid loquipment must be both equipment and location.

Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex) schrieb: >> I think for the cost part the explanation of John is pretty good. So the >> answer to this question would be no. Else you wouldn´t be able to fetch >> the palatial with a Magic of the Smith, which I have seen happen many >> times (of course those could have been misplays). >> >> -- >> Johannes Walch > > following your message, if frederick the weak take the Vast Wealth > action and the first equipment that shows is palatial: > > 1.- palatial is not an aquipment and will seqarch for the first > equipment (as you say) You misunderstood me. I was referring to the hypothetical card that would allow you to search you library for a location. Searching for equipment and finding Palatial *does* work (as confirmed by LSJ). -- Johannes Walch

Malone wrote: > Does Marie Faucigny's special ("Non-weapon equipment cards cost her 1 > less blood or pool to equip.") reduce the cost of loquipment? I have > always assumed so, but now I'm not sure. If her special and TR both > do so, then at the moment the cost is paid loquipment must be both > equipment and location. Yes.

[ quoted text not captured ] Aha. So that's really the complete explanation. Malone, nice question asking to get the essence of the issue out of LSJ. :) Thanks to everyone involved for clarifying this situation! Ira