Question

I am a little new to the game and I have my first question. If I go to bleed my prey does not block I can play an action modifier then replace it. I.E. Arika goes to bleed with Govern the Unaligned (replace). My prey does not block. Arika Conditions the bleed (replace). I drew and Arika modifies with Aire of Elation (replace). I draw spying mission. My prey deflects. I play spying mission so I don't mess up my grand-prey. Legal? If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't replace it? Just doesn't make since. Why can I not pick up after my bewitching oration. I.E. Arika calls a Kine Resources Contested. No one blocks. I play Closed Session (can't replace). I play Bribes (can't replace). I play Disarming Presence (can't replace). And finally I play Bewitching Oration (can't replace). Vote passes. Then I replace and play the cryptic rider and voter captivation I draw. Legal? Why can I replace Action Modifiers during a bleed and not during a polical action. That makes no sense. Thanks Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> If I go to bleed my prey does not block I can play an action modifier > then replace it. I.E. Arika goes to bleed with Govern the Unaligned > (replace). My prey does not block. Arika Conditions the bleed > (replace). Illegal. You can only play one action modifier to increase the bleed. It says as much on the card text. > I drew and Arika modifies with Aire of Elation (replace). Illegal. See above. > I draw spying mission. My prey deflects. I play spying mission so I > don't mess up my grand-prey. Legal? Yes, this is legal. And the next time you bleed your prey with that vamp, you are obligated to burn the Spying Mission to increase the bleed (unless you play another Spying Mission) > If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can > replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't > replace it? Because when you replace the vove you are replacing it as you play it per the rulebook. Action modifiers that increase the vamps vote, cancel other vamp's votes, etc. are played during the referrendum and any cards played during this phase are not replaced. > Just doesn't make since. It does. However, I think it is too extreme, epecially after 7/7 > Why can I not pick up after my bewitching oration. I.E. Arika calls a > Kine Resources Contested. Replace as per usual. > No one blocks. Referredum phase starts. > I play Closed Session (can't replace). I play Bribes > (can't replace). I play Disarming Presence (can't replace). And > finally I play Bewitching Oration (can't replace). All of this is during the referrenum phase, when you cannot replace cards played. > Then I replace and play the cryptic rider and voter captivation I draw. > Legal? Yes. These are played after the referrendum phase after the vote has passed. > Why can I replace Action Modifiers during a bleed and not during a > polical action. That makes no sense. It does. Note, though, that with bleeds, there is nothing like the referrendum phase afterwards. They are 2 different types of actions and follow 2 different procedures. However, It's just another of many things done to hamstring voting decks, IMO. Sorrow --- "Happiness sucks" -me

In article <90dd7g$sa0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, clan...@my-deja.com wrote: > I am a little new to the game and I have my first question. Hey there...hope you're enjoying it so far. > If I go to bleed my prey does not block I can play an action modifier > then replace it. I.E. Arika goes to bleed with Govern the Unaligned > (replace). Correct. > My prey does not block. Arika Conditions the bleed (replace). Correct. > I drew and Arika modifies with Aire of Elation (replace). Unfortunately, no. Your copies of Conditioning, Threats, and Bonding probably say something about not being able to use one in conjunction with one of the other ones. This was expanded to include all other bleed modifiers, with the exception of Command of the Beast at superior. So, you could play Command of the Beast as superior for +1 bleed, and then play a Conditioning on top of that, but not the other way around. The text reads: "You cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action." If you have any questions about whether or not the text on your card is current, you can always check www.white-wolf.com/vtes > I draw spying mission. My prey deflects. I play spying mission so I > don't mess up my grand-prey. Legal? With the exception of the Aire of Elation part, yeah. Good use of Spying Mission, by the way. > If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can > replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't > replace it? Just doesn't make since. Why can I not pick up after my In some ways, it's a hold-over from the attempt to keep vote-pushing (passing votes by playing multiple political actions that you drew during the referendum) from ruling the game. However, it does affect both the acting methuselah and any reacting ones equally. Just think if your prey had two vampires with superior presence, but only one Dread Gaze in hand. If he were able to draw, and picked up another Dread Gaze, he'd be able to use it, but you couldn't play another Bewitching Oration. Of course, if he has another in hand, you're still getting shafted, but I suppose that's the luck of the draw. I guess I've never worried about it, because it affects everyone equally. Of course, LSJ might just tell you that you can't replace because that's what the rulebook says in 6.3.2. :) Thanks for the plug on answers, Lasombra. I am working on the nitpicking, because I have a tournament to judge next week. Woo! > bewitching oration. I.E. Arika calls a Kine Resources Contested. No > one blocks. I believe that you can replace the vote card before entering the referendum. I could be wrong though. > I play Closed Session (can't replace). Yup. > I play Bribes (can't replace). True. >I play Disarming Presence (can't replace). And > finally I play Bewitching Oration (can't replace). All correct. > Vote passes. Then I replace and play the cryptic rider and voter > captivation I draw. Legal? I am actually not sure...though my guess is that yes, this is legal, because both say to play *after* a successful referendum. Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

> > If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can > > replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't > > replace it? > > Because when you replace the vove you are replacing it as you play > it per the rulebook. Action modifiers that increase the vamps vote, > cancel other vamp's votes, etc. are played during the referrendum > and any cards played during this phase are not replaced. > > > Just doesn't make since. > > It does. However, I think it is too extreme, epecially after 7/7 > > > It does. Note, though, that with bleeds, there is nothing like the > referrendum phase afterwards. They are 2 different types of actions > and follow 2 different procedures. > However, It's just another of many things done to hamstring voting decks, This is the part I don't understand. Yes, they are two different actions. And yes, the rule book does say that. My questions is more a why? I can replace stealth as played for both vote and bleed and everthing else for that matter. Was there an abuse? I don't see it. Why just because it is in referendum is there no replace? Clan_war [ quoted text not captured ]

> Unfortunately, no. Your copies of Conditioning, Threats, and Bonding > probably say something about not being able to use one in conjunction > with one of the other ones. This was expanded to include all other > bleed modifiers, with the exception of Command of the Beast at > superior. So, you could play Command of the Beast as superior for +1 > bleed, and then play a Conditioning on top of that, but not the other > way around. The text reads: "You cannot play another action modifier > to further increase the bleed for this action." Okay sorry bad example. So I have Command of the beast, play it, replace it, draw another, play it (?).... then finish with conditioning. > > If you have any questions about whether or not the text on your card is > current, you can always check www.white-wolf.com/vtes > > > I draw spying mission. My prey deflects. I play spying mission so I > > don't mess up my grand-prey. Legal? > > With the exception of the Aire of Elation part, yeah. Good use of > Spying Mission, by the way. Thanks. > > > If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can > > replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't > > replace it? Just doesn't make since. Why can I not pick up after my > > In some ways, it's a hold-over from the attempt to keep vote-pushing > (passing votes by playing multiple political actions that you drew > during the referendum) from ruling the game. However, it does affect > both the acting methuselah and any reacting ones equally. Just think > if your prey had two vampires with superior presence, but only one > Dread Gaze in hand. If he were able to draw, and picked up another > Dread Gaze, he'd be able to use it, but you couldn't play another > Bewitching Oration. Of course, if he has another in hand, you're still > getting shafted, but I suppose that's the luck of the draw. I guess > I've never worried about it, because it affects everyone equally. > > Of course, LSJ might just tell you that you can't replace because > that's what the rulebook says in 6.3.2. :) Thanks for the plug on > answers, Lasombra. I am working on the nitpicking, because I have a > tournament to judge next week. Woo! > Now that I didn't know. Everyone that reacted with Dread gaze always replace immediately in my group. That isn't legal? I understand it is in the rulebook I was just looking for the reasoning. I thought maybe somebody could explain why they did it that way. Politics is a good tool I like to use but difficult enough to run combos without being able to replace cards. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90do1v$3cf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, clan...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can > > > replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't > > > replace it? > > > > Because when you replace the vove you are replacing it as you play > > it per the rulebook. Action modifiers that increase the vamps vote, > > cancel other vamp's votes, etc. are played during the referrendum > > and any cards played during this phase are not replaced. > > > > > Just doesn't make since. > > > > It does. However, I think it is too extreme, epecially after 7/7 > > > > > > > It does. Note, though, that with bleeds, there is nothing like the > > referrendum phase afterwards. They are 2 different types of actions > > and follow 2 different procedures. > > However, It's just another of many things done to hamstring voting > decks, > > This is the part I don't understand. Yes, they are two different > actions. And yes, the rule book does say that. My questions is more a > why? I can replace stealth as played for both vote and bleed and > everthing else for that matter. Was there an abuse? I don't see it. > Why just because it is in referendum is there no replace? > > Clan_war > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > I agree. I haven't seen any real reason for that rule either. Granted Ravnos political power is a little lacking but hey, I play other stuff too. Well, maybe not after Final Nights. Ravnos Shadow Independants Rule!!! [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90dobt$3g2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, clan...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, no. Your copies of Conditioning, Threats, and Bonding > > probably say something about not being able to use one in conjunction > > with one of the other ones. This was expanded to include all other > > bleed modifiers, with the exception of Command of the Beast at > > superior. So, you could play Command of the Beast as superior for +1 > > bleed, and then play a Conditioning on top of that, but not the other > > way around. The text reads: "You cannot play another action modifier > > to further increase the bleed for this action." > > Okay sorry bad example. So I have Command of the beast, play it, > replace it, draw another, play it (?).... then finish with conditioning. > > If I understand correctly, as long as you draw Command of the Beasts you can keep playing them at superior. Yes. > > If you have any questions about whether or not the text on your card > is > > current, you can always check www.white-wolf.com/vtes > > > > > I draw spying mission. My prey deflects. I play spying mission so > I > > > don't mess up my grand-prey. Legal? > > > > With the exception of the Aire of Elation part, yeah. Good use of > > Spying Mission, by the way. > > Thanks. > > > > > If this is true (as I have been told), why, when I play a vote I can > > > replace it but when I play an action modifier on that vote I can't [ quoted text not captured ] Again, I agree. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90dobt$3g2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, clan...@my-deja.com wrote: > Okay sorry bad example. So I have Command of the beast, play it, > replace it, draw another, play it (?).... then finish with > conditioning. No, you may not play more than one Command of the Beast, as you can only play the same action modifier (by name) once per action. So you also can't play Lost in Crowds twice for +4 stealth. (My first group played that wrong forever...) [1.6.3] > > In some ways, it's a hold-over from the attempt to keep vote-pushing > > (passing votes by playing multiple political actions that you drew > > during the referendum) from ruling the game. However, it does > > affect both the acting methuselah and any reacting ones equally. > Now that I didn't know. Everyone that reacted with Dread gaze always > replace immediately in my group. That isn't legal? No, because the rules state that "No Methuselahs draw to replace cards during a referendum." [6.3.2] That means *all* Methuselahs cannot draw to replace. > I understand it is in the rulebook I was just looking for the > reasoning. I thought maybe somebody could explain why they did it > that way. Politics is a good tool I like to use but difficult enough > to run combos without being able to replace cards. Well, I did explain it. :) In the paragraph I saved above "Now that I didn't know..." I point out that it's largely held over from the abuse of vote-pushing. Play a deck with 70 Kine Resources Contested, 10 Bewitching Orations, and 10 Majesty (even better, play that you can repeat actions...) and rules allowing you to redraw during the vote and that you can play as many political actions from your hand to gain additional votes as you like, not just one, and see how often you lose. Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

clan...@my-deja.com wrote: > Okay sorry bad example. So I have Command of the beast, play it, > replace it, draw another, play it (?).... then finish with > conditioning. No to the second Command of the Beast. The minion cannot play the same action modifier again in a given action. > Now that I didn't know. Everyone that reacted with Dread gaze always > replace immediately in my group. That isn't legal? No. No cards are replaced during a referendum. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90donm$3qv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <90dobt$3g2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > clan...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > >So, you could play Command of the Beast as superior for +1 > > >bleed, and then play a Conditioning on top of that, but not > > >the other way around. The text reads: "You cannot play another > > >action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action." > > > > Okay sorry bad example. So I have Command of the beast, play it, > > replace it, draw another, play it (?).... then finish with > conditioning. > > > > > If I understand correctly, as long as you draw Command of the Beasts > you can keep playing them at superior. Yes. No, you do not understand correctly. You can only play one of each action modifier by name per minion per action. You cannot play multiple copies of Command of the Beast with having multiple minions in on the action (ie Mask of a Thousand Faces). [1.6.3.2] - page 16 A minion cannot play the same action modifier more than once during a single action. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://lasombra.tripod.com http://legbiter.tripod.com http://vekn_clans.tripod.com [ quoted text not captured ]

Clan War wrote: >>This is the part I don't understand. Yes, they are two different actions. And yes, the rule book does say that. My questions is more a why? I can replace stealth as played for both vote and bleed and everthing else for that matter. Was there an abuse? I don't see it. Why just because it is in referendum is there no replace?>> Because far earlier in the game's evolution, you could toss Political Action cards for extra votes (this is no longer the case), thus if you made a deck that consisted of 90 Political Action cards you could, if not for the prohibition on redrawing during a referendum, theoretically draw and play all 90 cards in a single referendum, just to gain the extra votes. While playing all 90 is an extreme example, being able to redraw under these circumstances meant that you could *always* push through a vote (by drawing new Political Action cards to toss for votes), and the political rules would have been completely pointless. As it was, when you could vote push (i.e. throw as many PA cards as you wanted as votes, limited only by the number you had in your hand when the referendum started), the political rules were pretty much pointless anyways, so they fixed them into what they are now (no more than one vote from a PA card per referendum per player). With Action Modifiers, on the other hand, there was no such possibility, as you were limited to one particular Action Modifier per minion per action--i.e. if you play a Lost in Crowds, and then draw a second one, you can't play it anyway, as you can only play one Lost in Crowds per action. Thus, you are inherrently limited by the overall rules from playing all of your cards in one action. With the old political rules, you weren't. Thus, the no re-draw during a referendum. I agree that at this point, it seems somewhat unecessary (due to the no vote pushing rules), but it is still held over in the rules, as I guess there was no good reason to change it. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "Why so many swords?" "I must kill many." -Kikuchiyo

> Well, I did explain it. :) In the paragraph I saved above "Now that I > didn't know..." I point out that it's largely held over from the abuse > of vote-pushing. Play a deck with 70 Kine Resources Contested, 10 > Bewitching Orations, and 10 Majesty (even better, play that you can > repeat actions...) and rules allowing you to redraw during the vote and > that you can play as many political actions from your hand to gain > additional votes as you like, not just one, and see how often you lose. > I know that you can no longer play more than one political action card for the vote so that stopped vote pushing. I don't see the need to keep people from refilling their hand during referendum. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <20001203121802...@ng-fs1.aol.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Okay. So, it is a left over rule. I don't agree with it though. Any chance someone might decide that it isn't needed any more? It would sure be nice. [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorrow <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote... > > If I go to bleed my prey does not block I can play an action modifier > > then replace it. I.E. Arika goes to bleed with Govern the Unaligned > > (replace). My prey does not block. Arika Conditions the bleed > > (replace). > > Illegal. You can only play one action modifier to increase the bleed. > It says as much on the card text. How is this illegal? Conditioning is his first bleed modifier... =) Best, Mattrim. mattrim...@home.com np.Sigur Rós.Ágætis byrjun

>Okay. So, it is a left over rule. I don't agree with it though. Any >chance someone might decide that it isn't needed any more? It would >sure be nice. I agree that it's mainly a vestigial rule left over from back in the days of no-limit to vote pushing. But if it wasn't there, it would be heavily slanted towards the other players. No matter how many cards the acting minion craws, he can only play one of each action modifier. But as long as the other Methusalehs have available minions, they can play more cards. Example: Player 1: I call a Kindred Resources Contested. ::Player 2 grins evilly: Player 2: Each of my 4 untapped Ventrue play Elder Kindred Network -- so each extra vote I have means you lose 4 pool! ::Player 1 gulps:: Player 1: I play Bewitching Oration (redraw), Awe for max blood (redraw). Player 2: Okay let's see. I play 2 Dread Gazes and 2 Surprise Influences, redraw. Wow, I play the other 2 Dread Gazes I just drew. And after redrawing from that I play another 2 Surprise Influences I just drew. Drawing two more cards...I get some Kindred Coercions and Pulling Strings.... Granted this is an extreme example (of a super-focused anti-vote deck). But still, in a long protracted game with multiple minions, voting can become quite hectic. Halcyan 2

Xian wrote: > > I drew and Arika modifies with Aire of Elation (replace). > > Unfortunately, no. Your copies of Conditioning, Threats, and Bonding > probably say something about not being able to use one in conjunction > with one of the other ones. This was expanded to include all other > bleed modifiers, with the exception of Command of the Beast at > superior. Actually, the way this works is that Jyhad copies of Conditioning, Threats, and Bonding each state that you can't use with other C, T, and B cards. The V:tES version (and now the Sabbat version) of these cards state that "After playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action." Most of the later bleed enhancers (e.g. Air of Elation, Foreshadowing Destruction, etc.) but not Command of the Beast at superior (as you note) included the same clause. So as a minor nit, the Conditioning card from its latest reading prohibits all future bleed enhancers including both Air of Elation and Command of the Beast, superior or inferior. If you want to use Command of the Beast at superior plus another enhancer, you must use it first. Shall I rant? Fred

Can Thoughts Betrayed be played even at long range? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90ms0b$cve$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, francoi...@my-deja.com wrote: > Can Thoughts Betrayed be played even at long range? Thoughts Betrayed is played before range is determined. So yes, it will still have an effect if the combat ends being up at long range. http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Cardlist_T.html#Thoughts_Betrayed Thoughts Betrayed [DS, SW] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 2 blood Discipline: Dominate Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Opposing minion takes an additional 1 damage in the first round of combat during strike resolution. (S) Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Opposing minion cannot play any strike cards for the duration of this combat. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://lasombra.tripod.com http://legbiter.tripod.com http://vekn_clans.tripod.com [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3A2DAE29...@netcom.com>, fre...@netcom.com wrote: > Shall I rant? Please do. :) I was suspecting that they were Jyhad copies of Conditioning, Bonding, Threats, but thanks for the clarification for all concerned... Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]