Aanarch Set

I was wondering about the upcoming anarch set: Is the release day set? Will there be a preview? If so when will it start? Will WW publish a card list in time, i.e., a few days before the release? Will we get a full spoiler from WW of all the cards within a few days of the release? It would be very nice to get an answer from an person presenting WW, maybe LSJ. Furthermore I'd like to mention that some rarity indication on the cards. This would help many people a lot and doesn't hurt anybody. As far as this can be implemented easily. I am aware of the fact that this can't be implemented in Anarchs unless it is already done. Still, it would be very nice to have in a future expansion. Those who are interested can take a look at the homepage of comigimages the publisher of the Rawdeal card game (WWE Wrestling). There you can see a very open approach to new sets (Velocity just released, Survivor Series 2 upcoming). http://www.comicimages.com/rawdeal/ I like the way they draw the attention of their customers by publishing the full spoiler list in waves week after week. regards pallando

pallando wrote: > I was wondering about the upcoming anarch set: > > Is the release day set? > Will there be a preview? If so when will it start? > Will WW publish a card list in time, i.e., a few days before the release? > Will we get a full spoiler from WW of all the cards within a few days of the > release? > > It would be very nice to get an answer from an person presenting WW, maybe > LSJ. As always, the web page will reflect the information that is public. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

at least the approximate release date wouldbe nice stefan "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3E91B499...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

AT wrote: > at least the approximate release date wouldbe nice See the web page. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Furthermore I'd like to mention that some rarity indication on the cards. >This would help many people a lot and doesn't hurt anybody. As far as this >can be implemented easily. I am aware of the fact that this can't be >implemented in Anarchs unless it is already done. Still, it would be very >nice to have in a future expansion. No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? Are VTES players really so empty-headed that they can't remember a few basics? Anyway, if you're having problems remembering rarity, it's really not that hard to keep a card list or two with you. Furthermore, considering how often cards have been changing rarity lately, you'd end up causing more confusion. >Those who are interested can take a look at the homepage of comigimages the >publisher of the Rawdeal card game (WWE Wrestling). There you can see a very >open approach to new sets (Velocity just released, Survivor Series 2 >upcoming). > >http://www.comicimages.com/rawdeal/ > >I like the way they draw the attention of their customers by publishing the >full spoiler list in waves week after week. > Some companies do this, some companies don't (I know Alderac does it as well). I really don't mind the way White Wolf's been doing things. The problem with the way some other companies do things is by the time the new set is released, you already know everything in it. Kind of spoils things. Also, it takes away the excitement and surprise factor of finding out yourselves, and can give a potential advantage during pre-release play. Halcyan 2

>No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? Are VTES >players really so empty-headed that they can't remember a few basics? Anyway, >if you're having problems remembering rarity, it's really not that hard to >keep >a card list or two with you. Furthermore, considering how often cards have >been >changing rarity lately, you'd end up causing more confusion. Want a rarity indicator to avoid having to carry around a list of rarity. What confusion? The card is however rare it is in the set. There's no reason not to have a rarity indicator. For those people who care, it's convenient. For those who don't, they can ignore it.

On 07 Apr 2003 22:02:48 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: >>Furthermore I'd like to mention that some rarity indication on the cards. >>This would help many people a lot and doesn't hurt anybody. As far as this >>can be implemented easily. I am aware of the fact that this can't be >>implemented in Anarchs unless it is already done. Still, it would be very >>nice to have in a future expansion. > > >No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? Are VTES >players really so empty-headed that they can't remember a few basics? Anyway, >if you're having problems remembering rarity, it's really not that hard to keep >a card list or two with you. Furthermore, considering how often cards have been >changing rarity lately, you'd end up causing more confusion. You want an answer as to one of the reasons that VTES isn't able to draw new players, the lack of a rarity indicator is one of the big ones. >>Those who are interested can take a look at the homepage of comigimages the >>publisher of the Rawdeal card game (WWE Wrestling). There you can see a very >>open approach to new sets (Velocity just released, Survivor Series 2 >>upcoming). >> >>http://www.comicimages.com/rawdeal/ >> >>I like the way they draw the attention of their customers by publishing the >>full spoiler list in waves week after week. > > >Some companies do this, some companies don't (I know Alderac does it as well). >I really don't mind the way White Wolf's been doing things. The problem with >the way some other companies do things is by the time the new set is released, >you already know everything in it. Kind of spoils things. Also, it takes away >the excitement and surprise factor of finding out yourselves, and can give a >potential advantage during pre-release play. I'm in partial agreement. It would rather not see a full spoiler, but a checklist would be super-nice to have prior to release. If nothing else, it gives the release some momentum as people speculate what card "x" might represent in VTES. Others would be geeked that a favorite Vamp of thiers is seeing print. Spoiler list bad. Complete checklist good. With rarities even better. >Halcyan 2 BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

Halcyan 2 wrote: > No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? Yeah--I still can't really see the problem with rarity indicators. They are unobtrusive (print the already existing expansion symbol in 3 different colors--white, grey, black or something), in no way detract from the card in any way, be it functional or aesthetic, and are moderately handy. I mean, sure, I personally don't really care one way or the other, but I am yet to be convinced of a reason to *not* use them. Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote: > On 07 Apr 2003 22:02:48 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: >> Furthermore, considering how often cards have been changing rarity >> lately, you'd end up causing more confusion. > > You want an answer as to one of the reasons that VTES isn't able to > draw new players, the lack of a rarity indicator is one of the big > ones. Never heard such nonsense. I can't believe anyone would not want to start the game only because they can't see the rarity on a card. > I'm in partial agreement. It would rather not see a full spoiler, > but a checklist would be super-nice to have prior to release. you can't complain since the checklist is always the way WW had gone with final nights, CE etc...

berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote in message news:<3e91fea0...@netnews.attbi.com>... > You want an answer as to one of the reasons that VTES isn't able to draw > new players, the lack of a rarity indicator is one of the big ones. > Oh give me a break. As if a rarity indicator would suddenly turn people onto a game that did not previouslly interest them? Getting new players into the game is about the GAME, and visibility thereof. If the game is good, and it is being played, it will appeal to players on the merits thereof. You want a rarity indicator? Get a cardlist. T

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030407180248...@mb-ca.aol.com... > >Furthermore I'd like to mention that some rarity indication on the cards. > >This would help many people a lot and doesn't hurt anybody. As far as this > >can be implemented easily. I am aware of the fact that this can't be > >implemented in Anarchs unless it is already done. Still, it would be very > >nice to have in a future expansion. > > > No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? Are VTES > players really so empty-headed that they can't remember a few basics? Anyway, > if you're having problems remembering rarity, it's really not that hard to keep > a card list or two with you. Furthermore, considering how often cards have been > changing rarity lately, you'd end up causing more confusion. Not that I consider myself empty headed but I don't consider recalling the rarity of lesser used cards a basic skill that I learned when playing Jyhad. I mean, something as simple as printing a C,U or R somewhere inconspicuos on the card is not a problem and as far as I can tell, wouldn't affect the play of the game. As for the card list, I don't enjoy the idea of carrying around a card list (considering the size of this document). I think if anything, if rarity changes during in between sets, having the rarity on the card will simply indicate the rarity of that card for the set it was released in and this IMHO is alot better than having a list that says for such and such a card, it was rare in Jyhad but uncommon in CE. I mean, what's the harm really? From the point of view of a quality engineer, if something improves customer satisfaction without increased cost and decreased function, go for it. > > >Those who are interested can take a look at the homepage of comigimages the > >publisher of the Rawdeal card game (WWE Wrestling). There you can see a very > >open approach to new sets (Velocity just released, Survivor Series 2 > >upcoming). > > > >http://www.comicimages.com/rawdeal/ > > > >I like the way they draw the attention of their customers by publishing the > >full spoiler list in waves week after week. > > > > Some companies do this, some companies don't (I know Alderac does it as well). > I really don't mind the way White Wolf's been doing things. The problem with > the way some other companies do things is by the time the new set is released, > you already know everything in it. Kind of spoils things. Also, it takes away > the excitement and surprise factor of finding out yourselves, and can give a > potential advantage during pre-release play. To not be completely negative, I agree with Halcyan here. No need for a spoiler. When was the last time you got to open your Christmas presents early? I mean from the POV from White Wolf, If they release a spoiler, you read it and make an decision that you think it sucks, you buy less cards. If they keep everyone in the dark, you have to buy some cards to make that desicion. Good business practice. > > Halcyan 2 Mark Allen Prince of Ottawa

In article <76d1d5ef.03040...@posting.google.com>, talonz51 @hotmail.com says... > Oh give me a break. As if a rarity indicator would suddenly turn > people onto a game that did not previouslly interest them? Getting > new players into the game is about the GAME, and visibility thereof. > If the game is good, and it is being played, it will appeal to players > on the merits thereof. > > You want a rarity indicator? Get a cardlist. Some people are more interested in the collecting aspect of the game than the actual play. To those people, a rarity indicator is an extremely useful thing to have on the card. Another group that appreciates rarity indicators is new players. Getting ripped off in trades because you don't have any idea of the relative value of a card is a very real thing. People wouldn't *need* a cardlist to know rarity if the indicators were already on the card. That's part of the point. -- -Snapcase

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E91B499...@white-wolf.com... > As always, the web page will reflect the information that is public. I don't think too many people here expect White Wolf to let you (LSJ) leak info that is not in public domain at this time. (okay, some people do... but we're only human) But I would just like to say that some local retailers right now are still in the dark (mine, who is usually good at keeping on top of these things was A.surprised to hear that the next expansion was a May release [according to website] and B.more surprised that he had not even heard of the name of the expansion yet and C. concerned that he has had no opportunities to order stock for a potential release that could be as early as 4 (8 more likely I guess) weeks away). Hey I know its not your job, but could you suggest to someone over there to light a fire under marketing? Concerned, -JTP

>Another group that appreciates rarity indicators is new players. >Getting ripped off in trades because you don't have any idea of the >relative value of a card is a very real thing. But would a rarity indicator really help with this? Don't forget one of the benefits that Jyhad/VTES has over *many other games* is that it doesn't really have power rares. It other games, yeah, it's really important to know which card is the rare but that's because sometimes you have the cases where people literally buy boosters just for the rare and throw away the rest. In Jyhad/VTES, the cards are much more balanced. If anything, the presence of a rarity indicator could further increase the problem of getting ripped off. Sure, you won't be able to trade an Aids from Bats for a Protected Resources, but people might get a little too comfortable. Hey, look at this super cool Tasha Morgan card. I'll offer you it for your Protected Resources. See, since they're both "rare," the trade is perfectly fair! All this comes down to a completely different issue (that of what a "fair" trade is). For those card speculators who rely on eBay prices it wouldn't really help either because you could still easily get ripped off *despite* the presence of rarity indicators. Halcyan 2

>> No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? > >Yeah--I still can't really see the problem with rarity indicators. They are >unobtrusive (print the already existing expansion symbol in 3 different >colors--white, grey, black or something), in no way detract from the card in >any way, be it functional or aesthetic, and are moderately handy. > >I mean, sure, I personally don't really care one way or the other, but I am >yet to be convinced of a reason to *not* use them. > Because they are a crutch for the weak? =P I think a bit of my elitest personality will be coming out here but I *like* complicated. Typically, more complex rules are good (which is why I liked the old Paralyze and Close Quarters rules). A complicated game allows for more depth, and at the same time, helps separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. I personally feel that adding rarity indicators would be another step toward "dumbing down" the game, something that has already helped way too much for my tastes. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to know at least a little something... and no, I don't expect *everyone* to be walking encyclopedias but really, knowing a little something about rarities isn't going to hurt. Halcyan 2

>Not that I consider myself empty headed but I don't consider recalling the >rarity of lesser used cards a basic skill that I learned when playing Jyhad. >I mean, something as simple as printing a C,U or R somewhere inconspicuos on >the card is not a problem and as far as I can tell, wouldn't affect the play >of the game. Sure, I don't expect everyone to remember every little detail, but it's really not that hard to get "a feel" for the rarity of a card. As I mentioned before, it's not as much of an issue in Jyhad/VTES since cards are much more balanced (and I personally don't think it really matters whether Dramatic Upheaval is a C or a U), but it's really not hard to be able to sift out the rares. >As for the card list, I don't enjoy the idea of carrying around >a card list (considering the size of this document). I think if anything, >if rarity changes during in between sets, having the rarity on the card will >simply indicate the rarity of that card for the set it was released in and >this IMHO is alot better than having a list that says for such and such a >card, it was rare in Jyhad but uncommon in CE. I mean, what's the harm >really? From the point of view of a quality engineer, if something improves >customer satisfaction without increased cost and decreased function, go for >it. But you see, the presence of rarity indicators will mean more people will rely on them in determining a "fair" trade. You mentioned yourself that the rarity indicator would simply indicate the rarity in that set. Thus you could have increasing complications. What happens if you have a set with no rares (like Dark Sovereigns). Wouldn't that distort things a bit? How many U1's would be equal to a Tasha Morgan? And also, when you do have rarity changes in between sets, you'd have additional problems. I could trade you Freak Drives with the rare bug when you think they're rare. And only later on, when you opened CE packs, would you find Freak Drives with the uncommon bug and think "what the frell?" Similarly, there are other things out there that might make some people happy, but the game really doesn't need it. Take for example the issue of foil rares. How about we just make the R1's foils, as have been done in other games? I personally think it's a dreadful idea because foil cards wouldn't work well with VTES IMO (plus it would probably look tacky combined with other cards). So just like how I think we don't need foil rares (which just about every CCG has nowadays), we similarly don't need rarity indicators. Halcyan 2

>> I'm in partial agreement. It would rather not see a full spoiler, >> but a checklist would be super-nice to have prior to release. > >you can't complain since the checklist is always the way WW had gone with >final nights, CE etc... Yes, but I think where Bernie disagrees is the part about releasing the checklist *prior to release*. Halcyan 2

[ quoted text not captured ] ? I think you meant to say "spoiler list". Bernie seems to be in agreement with the idea of printing checklists prior to release, per his quote above, and per his response to the CE checklist. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3d294d22.14293941%40netnews.attbi.com [ quoted text not captured ]

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030407235250...@mb-cg.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Saying we don't need rarity indications is a bold assumption/opinion. I assume when you say we, you are referring to yourself and select group of people you know. I for one would find a rarity indicator on cards a useful source of information. > > > Halcyan 2 As a general discussion, You really have to look at the POV of White Wolf and analyze how the Fit, Form and Function of a product is affected by a potential customer/customer request to add to a product. I mean, you can make any arguments you want pro or con but what I comes down to is that if WW execs are sitting there and have some research data that says "More people will buy and play V:TES if we add rarity indicators to cards" then those executives are going to ask the design engineers to go into a Risk/Cost/Design analysis to see if this can be done. Of course, when the execs find out that the Design engineers say "Adding a rarity indicator has minimal impact on how the card works and plays, the cost to print the card and way the card is designed", the exec's will say "Why didn't we do this sooner? It increases sales and visibility of our product." I can't really see anyone quiting VTES because of rarity indicator. The knowledged fans know what there cards are worth, regardless of what is printed on a card. It's really for the 'new customer' group and the 'existing customers that request this functionality' group. What happens to a set with no rares like DS? The same thing as happens now. How many U1's would be equal to a Tasha Morgan? The answer is as always, whatever your willing to pay/trade. The issue with the Freak Drive? It's already happened, and there is no rarity indicator on the card. My point is this. Rarity indicators on cards serve to give information and will add value to them without affecting the Fit, Form and Function of the cards. How can WW lose by doing it if their research indicates it's something that customers want? Basically, the answer is that a company to remain competitive must satisfy a large number of customer groups. You belong to one, me another, the next guy a different one from both of us, etc. If they add value to a product to increase their market share with mininal effect to the customer groups, then that is something they should do. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> Yes, but I think where Bernie disagrees is the part about releasing the >> checklist *prior to release*. > >? >I think you meant to say "spoiler list". Oh, no. I thought Reyda was misinterpreting what Bernie was saying (in that he missed the part about "prior to release" and was just pointing out that White Wolf already does checklists). #1. Bernie does not agree with the idea of a spoiler list (which I wasn't referring to). #2. A. Bernie agrees about the concept of a checklist. #2. B. Bernie disagrees about having a checklist *after* release (i.e. Bernie wants a checklist *before* release). #2. B. was what I was referring to previously. >Bernie seems to be in agreement with the idea of printing checklists >prior to release, per his quote above, and per his response to the >CE checklist. Agreed. I'm glad we're all in agreement now (in one way at least)! =P Halcyan 2

> > Furthermore I'd like to mention that some rarity indication on the cards. > This would help many people a lot and doesn't hurt anybody. As far as this > can be implemented easily. I am aware of the fact that this can't be > implemented in Anarchs unless it is already done. Still, it would be very > nice to have in a future expansion. > Rarity indicators already exist... The rare in a bloodlines pack is the last card at the bottom. ;-) Seriously though, rarity indicators really aren't that much of a help, unless they are going to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad' rares. Like Halycon said, tasha for a protected isn't a great deal, but they are both rares. Someone else said that unlike magic, there are no "power cards" in VTES so you won't have trading sharks snapping them up from newbies. I think this, while somewhat true (I have a feeling that powercards DO exist in this game but that is for another post) misses a point. VTES relies on community in order to have a game. In magic, or other "dueling" games, you only need one other player. In VTES you need 3 to play, 4 to make a real game. Getting newbies to buy cards and then sharking the rares is going to scare off potential players and ruin your playgroup. When a new player starts you group should encourage her, because without that person you may be at a game night without a 4th listening to the crickets chirp. Here's an example: When I first started playing I bought a bunch of packs of FN and SW. In those packs I got 1 disarm and 1 abomination. A player in my group said,"great cards... care to trade them?" I decided that I did want to get rid of them, and he gave me a stack of cards - I'd say 30 or 40. Several uncommons, a war ghoul, some sabbat only vampires, a horrid form, a blood of acid, and tons of other stuff. He loaded me up with Brujah anti and Tzimice stuff. Another player traded me for a provision of the silisa, and gave me a stack of cards, several of them rare. They did this because they wanted the cards from me, but wanted to make sure that I didn't feel cheated. So what it boils down to is that there already is a rare indicator on cards, it is the playgroup looking over the shoulder of the new player saying, "hey great card!" And ultimately a rare indicator cannot be a "useful card" indicator. I'm still looking to get rid of my mistaken identity and twisting the knife cards. Care to trade a rare for a rare? Cecil

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20030407234212...@mb-cg.aol.com>... > >Another group that appreciates rarity indicators is new players. > >Getting ripped off in trades because you don't have any idea of the > >relative value of a card is a very real thing. > But would a rarity indicator really help with this? Don't forget one of the > benefits that Jyhad/VTES has over *many other games* is that it doesn't really > have power rares. Yes, it would. While Jyhad has a good deal of balance (rares tend to be good in less decks than commons), the fact remains that it still has cards of differing rarities. New players don't like having their rare cards traded off them for common ones. While most rare cards aren't considered "power rares", they're still generally more difficult to aquire than an uncommon or common card. > It other games, yeah, it's really important to know which > card is the rare but that's because sometimes you have the cases where people > literally buy boosters just for the rare and throw away the rest. In > Jyhad/VTES, the cards are much more balanced. That has as much to do with the fact that there's no card limit as card balance. Mentally put a 3 card limit on your decks and see if you keep those commons you already have dozens of when you buy a booster. > If anything, the presence of a rarity indicator could further increase the > problem of getting ripped off. Sure, you won't be able to trade an Aids from > Bats for a Protected Resources, but people might get a little too comfortable. > Hey, look at this super cool Tasha Morgan card. I'll offer you it for your > Protected Resources. See, since they're both "rare," the trade is perfectly > fair! So people trading rares for rares is increasing the problem? Yes, there are differing values among the rarities based on play value. But that's the same in every game. The idea is to at least keep people trading rares for rares instead of ripping newbies off completely with the Aid from Bats trade. > All this comes down to a completely different issue (that of what a "fair" > trade is). For those card speculators who rely on eBay prices it wouldn't > really help either because you could still easily get ripped off *despite* the > presence of rarity indicators. Auctioning is a completely different animal though (made evident by the amount of people willing to spend >10$ for Ian Forestal). People that rely on eBay prices already have some basis of comparing card values. The newbie who just started playing and doesn't "do the eBay" yet has no basis of comparing card values. Everyone's going to have a different definition of what a "fair" trade is. The idea is that newbies are generally thankful of a rarity indicator so they can avoid the Aid From Bats scam. Rarity indicators don't hurt at all and they're generally non-intrusive. There's no reason not to have them (unless they increase production costs in some way that I'm not aware of). -Snapcase

Cecil wrote: :: Here's an example: When I first started playing I bought a bunch of :: packs of FN and SW. In those packs I got 1 disarm and 1 :: abomination. A player in my group said,"great cards... care to :: trade them?" I decided that I did want to get rid of them, and he :: gave me a stack of cards - I'd say 30 or 40. Several uncommons, a :: war ghoul, some sabbat only vampires, a horrid form, a blood of :: acid, and tons of other stuff. He loaded me up with Brujah anti :: and Tzimice stuff. Very interesting since i started my jyhad and netrunner collection this way ! i went to see older players and offered them my rares (most of them i had a single copy of) for multiple copies of the same uncommon/common. So i could build decks right away. And it worked.

As more of a casual player I really don't care about the rarity. I wouldn't want to see a rarity indicator taking more space on a card that is covered in various icons and symbols. I would like to see a checklist released on the day a set is released to the public. Give it a week for a spoiler list. I like to have a simple checklist when I go through my cards to tick them off that I now have that card. Just my POV. ------------------------- Love is what we're born with. Fear is what we learn here.

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message > Because they are a crutch for the weak? =P Well, sure, but that isn't actually a *rational* reason not to use them :-) > I think a bit of my elitest personality will be coming out here but I *like* > complicated. Typically, more complex rules are good (which is why I liked the > old Paralyze and Close Quarters rules). A complicated game allows for more > depth, and at the same time, helps separate the wheat from the chaff, so to > speak. The game is already quite complicated--adding rarity indicators would in no way reduce the level of complexity of the game (nor would it increase it). I don't think rarity indicators would make the game any more or less accesible. It would just make trading on the fly a bit easier. I mean, sure, I *usually* know which cards are rare or common, but not always, and having rariy indicators would occasionally be helpful (just recently I traded some uncommon stuff for an equal amount of stuff I thought was uncommon but was actually common--wasn't really a problem, as I was happy with the trade, but if I knew the cards I was trading for were common, I probably could have got a few more out of the deal) and would never actually be a hinderance. Sure, if the cards had "COMMON" emblazoned across the portrait or something, that would be problematic, but simply changing the colors of the expansion symbol (that is already on the card)strikes me as such a non issue as to not even think about it. > I personally feel that adding rarity indicators would be another step toward > "dumbing down" the game, something that has already helped way too much for > my tastes. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to know at least > a little something... Sure, but your reasons for being opposed to the rarity indicator are mostly not practicality based--in a completely practical sense, they in no way hinder anything, occasionally will be useful for most folks, don't actually make the game less complicated or more accesible. > and no, I don't expect *everyone* to be walking encyclopedias but really, > knowing a little something about rarities isn't going to hurt. No, it isn't. But then neither would putting rarity indicators on the cards :-) -Peter

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20030407234600...@mb-cg.aol.com>... > >> No, no, no, no! I mean really. Why do we need rarity indicators? > > > >Yeah--I still can't really see the problem with rarity indicators. They are > >unobtrusive (print the already existing expansion symbol in 3 different > >colors--white, grey, black or something), in no way detract from the card in > >any way, be it functional or aesthetic, and are moderately handy. exactly, unobtrusive, fits the meloncholy color scheme already in place, and help people do whatever it is rarity signs do, trade, make deck design choices, whatever. Personally I like um in LOTR, where the rares are horribly over powered and thus key to deck building, but hey they make looking through cards easier. Further, they make trading much easier, and I don't have to memorize another games rarity and card lists (practically impossiable in LOTR with there crazed expansion rate and huge expansion size.) > >I mean, sure, I personally don't really care one way or the other, but I am > >yet to be convinced of a reason to *not* use them. > > Because they are a crutch for the weak? =P Who you calling weak? =P > I think a bit of my elitest personality will be coming out here but I *like* > complicated. Typically, more complex rules are good (which is why I liked the > old Paralyze and Close Quarters rules). A complicated game allows for more > depth, and at the same time, helps separate the wheat from the chaff, so to > speak. > > I personally feel that adding rarity indicators would be another step toward > "dumbing down" the game, something that has already helped way too much for my > tastes. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to know at least a > little something... > > and no, I don't expect *everyone* to be walking encyclopedias but really, > knowing a little something about rarities isn't going to hurt. complex is ok for games rules, it helps give nuance to a game that is not at all Harry Potter. (my current benchmark for a simple game. 100% deck destruction) As noted earlier the concept of rarity has little to do with utility, I'd argue that Govern is better than Mind Rape, 99% of the time. Trading is another matter. There I want clarity, I want openness and I want to not be able to trade someone who doesn't know that they're both DOM cards that give +2 bleed, and look GtU is cheaper.... Further, I want to be able to easily sort my cards into rarity. Am I weak Er... Halcyan? I certianly don't think so. I know something about rarities, hell I know a lot, but so what? I make mistakes sometimes, and so does everyone. You still need to know that J.S.Simmons, Esq. isn't as good a rare as PTO (but hey, what is?) Although you can note that they're both in starters. You can still trade a Rare for an Uncommon... like say the most broken card ever (that's Archon Investigation, btw.) Gosh only one person I've ever met is as elitist as you Halcyan... some guy, lives in Urbana ;) Cameron

>But would a rarity indicator really help with this? Don't forget one of the >benefits that Jyhad/VTES has over *many other games* is that it doesn't >really >have power rares. It other games, yeah, it's really important to know which >card is the rare but that's because sometimes you have the cases where people >literally buy boosters just for the rare and throw away the rest. In >Jyhad/VTES, the cards are much more balanced. When some of us open Bloodlines packs won at tournaments nowadays, we take the rares and offer the rest. Almost do the same with CE, but CE has power uncommons (e.g. Freak Drive) and the vampires are essentially rare, so less "here, get rid of this for us". The only difference is that the point where common and (most) uncommons become virtually valueless comes after opening more packs.

"Mark Allen" <alle...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<tSqka.74644$7Im....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Course, in order to be accurate, you need not just 'C/U/R' but C, C1, C2, R, R1, R2, U1, U2, U, V, F for the starter deck-only cards... -John Flournoy

On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:24:18 GMT, "Mark Allen" <alle...@rogers.com> <Snip: Mark's well written response> I only want to detail one remaining issue before I call quits on this thread (as it has recurred like 3 times in the last year). Rarity indicators are NOT all about the player. While it does aid in trade, etc. It's a great aid for the retailer that carry the VTES product. Of all the card games (and clix) that are sold/supported in my area (and a good chunk of Michigan), retailers use Rarity to establish a base price for sales of singles (of a target product). Considering the marginal following of VTES and lack of a rarity indicator there is no incentive for a store to push sales of individual cards. With a rarity indicator, a store can set an arbitrary price at a glance. Commons .10 Uncommons .50 Rares 2.00 When stores are able to recoup their cost of time and investment in a product, that's all well and good. When a store is actually able to turn a modest profit, they will be more likely to support/promote tournaments and player activity. Without retailer support & promotion, this game will continue to function in the background regardless of WW and VEKN's exceptional involvement. A rarity indicator isn't going to be the entire answer on how to gain new players, but a new player is used to having rarity indicators on their cards as they are probably now coming in from Magic/Pokemon/etc.. Point being that an indicator is expected by newer players, and not having one is yet another reason for them to walk away. Plus! Having a rarity indicator would allow those mega collectors another option on how to sort their cards :-) That's the last I have to say in this thread. BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

> > > You want an answer as to one of the reasons that VTES isn't able to draw > > > new players, the lack of a rarity indicator is one of the big ones. > > > Oh give me a break. As if a rarity indicator would suddenly turn > > people onto a game that did not previouslly interest them? Getting > > new players into the game is about the GAME, and visibility thereof. > > If the game is good, and it is being played, it will appeal to players > > on the merits thereof. > > > > You want a rarity indicator? Get a cardlist. > > Some people are more interested in the collecting aspect of the game > than the actual play. To those people, a rarity indicator is an > extremely useful thing to have on the card. While this statement is true, those people aren't actually 'new players', they're 'new collectors', which is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Besides which, I have never heard a collector select a new game to collect based on whether or not they had to use a checklist vs. a rarity indicator on the card. They're <ALREADY> having to use a checklist, because their concern is not 'how rare is this card' but rather 'have I gotten all of the cards'. To truly aid collectors with indicators on the card, you'd need a '5 of 324' like those that appear on purely-trading cards. > Another group that appreciates rarity indicators is new players. > Getting ripped off in trades because you don't have any idea of the > relative value of a card is a very real thing. Very true. Though a truly unscrupulous trader will still be more than able to swap even-rarity, uneven-value cards. "I'll trade you this Rare Praxis Seizure: Miami for that Rare Shroud of Absence! > People wouldn't *need* a cardlist to know rarity if the indicators were > already on the card. That's part of the point. Yep. Don't get me wrong - I'm in full agreement that printing rarity on the card would not be a bad thing. I'm just commenting that it would in no way suddenly turn the game into a best-seller greatest-product-since-sliced-bread item either. I mean, let's face it. Jyhad is not the simplest game in the world, nor the quickest to learn. New players have a harder time adjusting to the complexity of game play than to trying to figure out card rarity, especially when there exist many sources to have the rarities spelled out (the website, the newsgroup, scrye magazine, and so on). -John Flournoy

ce...@dueling.org (Cecil) wrote in message news:<b489f1c4.03040...@posting.google.com>... > > > > Furthermore I'd like to mention that some rarity indication on the cards. > > This would help many people a lot and doesn't hurt anybody. As far as this > > can be implemented easily. I am aware of the fact that this can't be > > implemented in Anarchs unless it is already done. Still, it would be very > > nice to have in a future expansion. > > Someone else said that unlike magic, there are no "power cards" in > VTES so you won't have trading sharks snapping them up from newbies. As VTES grows, like we all hope it will, rest assured, the sharks will show up. I think there are lots of benevolent benefactors around who freely give their excess commons to newbies in order to promote the game, but this isn't always the case by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not too concerned about it either way, but I can't imagine the cost of adding a rarity indicator outweighs the benefit of having one.

> I'm still looking to get rid of my mistaken identity and twisting the > knife cards. Care to trade a rare for a rare? > > Cecil Sure! I got a sweet stack of Abandoning the Flesh I'll trade for your mistaken identities :) -Bram Vink

Halcyan 2 wrote: > But would a rarity indicator really help with this? (avoiding getting ripped off)--it might help, and it certainly can't hurt. Mind you, I'm not like wildly pro rariy indicators or anything--if they were on the cards in an unobtrusive way (like changing the color of the already existing expansion symbol), I wouldn't be offended, and they certainly might be useful at some point. This being said, I can't for the life of me see a valid reason to not include them. Again, if they never were implimented, I'd be just as happy as not, but I can't see why they wouldn't be implimented. > If anything, the presence of a rarity indicator could further increase the > problem of getting ripped off. Oh, that's just silly. Having more information can never hurt. Knowing that a card is rare gives you an idea of its relative value. Mind you, value can mean many things to many people, but generally speaking, in a given set, a rare is worth a rare. Sure, some rares are really valuable and some are total ass, but knowing that a card is a rare as opposed to a common is *never* going to be detrimental. > Sure, you won't be able to trade an Aids from > Bats for a Protected Resources, but people might get a little too comfortable. > Hey, look at this super cool Tasha Morgan card. I'll offer you it for your > Protected Resources. See, since they're both "rare," the trade is perfectly > fair! How is that any different than having rarity lists on the internet? Should they do away with those? Yes, Tasha Morgan is ass compared to a Protected Resources in many senses--Tasha Morgan has, generally speaking, less play value than PR; There are *many* more Tasha Morgans in circulation than PRs. But if someone is trying to complete a CE set, and they really need a Tasha and have an extra PR, it seems likely that both parties are getting a good deal. > All this comes down to a completely different issue (that of what a "fair" > trade is). For those card speculators who rely on eBay prices it wouldn't > really help either because you could still easily get ripped off *despite* the > presence of rarity indicators. None of this at all supports the idea that rarity indicators would be detrimental. At all. Sure, they might not be incredibly useful. Or particularly necessary. And they might offend the "elitist" mindset of some, but there is no significant reason that adding them is bad. Again--I don't really care one way or the other, but I can't really see how adding them would be bad. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:19:09 GMT, berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote: >I only want to detail one remaining issue before I call quits on this >thread (as it has recurred like 3 times in the last year). Far too frequently. I don't expect a response to this, Bernie, but I thought I'd point something out. >Of all the card games (and clix) that are sold/supported in my area (and >a good chunk of Michigan), retailers use Rarity to establish a base >price for sales of singles (of a target product). Considering the Interesting that you point out clix. As far as I know, they don't have a rarity indicator on the base. There are some general tendencies, but at least as far as Heroclix goes, a particular colored base doesn't necessarily translate to a specific rarity level. A yellow-based figure can be rarity level 1, 2, or 3, for example. I'm guessing the same applies to MageKnight and MechWarrior, but I don't know for sure. Xian

Cameron <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote: >You can still > trade a Rare for an Uncommon... like say the most broken card ever > (that's Archon Investigation, btw.) From some of the people that play this game, you'd think that The Embrace was the most broken card ever. (And no, all you Embrace-is-too-good people, you *don't* have to say *again* that you never said that The Embrace was the most broken card ever. Thanks. :) > > Cameron Kevin M. "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

Kevin M. wrote: > (And no, all you Embrace-is-too-good people, you *don't* have to say > *again* that you never said that The Embrace was the most broken card > ever. Thanks. :) But, see, Embrace *IS* the most brok... Oh, wait. Never mind. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:<2hJka.159$%X5.149@fed1read03>... > Cameron <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >You can still > > trade a Rare for an Uncommon... like say the most broken card ever > > (that's Archon Investigation, btw.) > > From some of the people that play this game, you'd think that The > Embrace was the most broken card ever. > > (And no, all you Embrace-is-too-good people, you *don't* have to say > *again* that you never said that The Embrace was the most broken card > ever. Thanks. :) Sign that you're gone Kevin: just last week I took the two Anarchist Uprisings out of Lisette Hates You! That was a brutal but beatable deck. Cameron

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm still somewhat of a Clix newb, but it seems that I see prices for Veterans being set a tad higher than rookie or experienced versions. Would imagine it would be due to a Veteran clix usually having a higher number of abilities available to them on the dial. To be certain there are some exceptions (like Rookie Invisible girl). >Xian Bernie - Clix novice in Training

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, Lisette doesn't want anyone in her entourage voting anyway! She just wants them to beat people up! So I make more kiddies, so what? Just beat them up! =) [ quoted text not captured ]

> kevin M said: > > cameron D said: > > Sign that you're gone Kevin: just last week I took the two Anarchist > > Uprisings out of Lisette Hates You! That was a brutal but beatable > > deck. > > Well, Lisette doesn't want anyone in her entourage voting anyway! She > just wants them to beat people up! So I make more kiddies, so what? > Just beat them up! =) Un huh... With Wynn, Beast, and Theo... on turn 3. Maybe. :) At 4 transfers and perfect hand flow you had: turn minions 1 2 +2 uncontrolled + HC in play 2 6 3 12 +1 uncontrolled 4 24 +2 uncontrolled assuming that you have 12 embraces... which you did. So I'll rush 10-14 of them (number of rushes in lisette) and absolutely destroy them. Then I'll be computer hacked to death by the other 12. Cameron

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, you *are* discounting all the hate that will be coming my way on turn 3, after I have gotten out 6 minions by turn 2. But you might die first, anyway, you're right about that. :) > > Cameron Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:14:38 GMT, berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote: [trying not to veer too wildly off-topic] >I'm still somewhat of a Clix newb, but it seems that I see prices for >Veterans being set a tad higher than rookie or experienced versions. Yes, a veteran version of a specific figure is always (so far, at least) more rare than an experienced (or rookie) version of that same figure. However, unlike in V:tES, there is a further issue, in that a veteran version of figure A could be as rare as the rookie version of figure B. There are 5 or 6 levels of rarity, and (for example), a veteran Paramedic is the same rarity as a rookie Colossus. The packaging (like V:tES) has random distribution within one booster pack, but unlike V:tES, there isn't a guaranteed "high rarity" figure in it...generally, the four figures are arranged as follows: figure 1: rarity 1,2, or 3 figure 2: rarity 2, 3, or 4 figure 3: rarity 3, 4, or 5 (or 6? unique?) figure 4: rarity 1, 2, 3, or 4 At least, that's TTBOMK. >Would imagine it would be due to a Veteran clix usually having a higher >number of abilities available to them on the dial. Not necessarily. I think that the rookie/experienced/veteran thing is simply to a) show the growth of the character, and b) to introduce more a complex rarity scheme, in order to sell more product. :) Xian made at least a reference or two to V:tES

Cameron wrote: >>kevin M said: >> >>>cameron D said: >>>Sign that you're gone Kevin: just last week I took the two Anarchist >>>Uprisings out of Lisette Hates You! That was a brutal but beatable >>>deck. >> >>Well, Lisette doesn't want anyone in her entourage voting anyway! She >>just wants them to beat people up! So I make more kiddies, so what? >>Just beat them up! =) > > > Un huh... With Wynn, Beast, and Theo... on turn 3. Maybe. :) > > At 4 transfers and perfect hand flow you had: > turn minions > 1 2 +2 uncontrolled + HC in play > 2 6 > 3 12 +1 uncontrolled > 4 24 +2 uncontrolled assuming that you have 12 embraces... > which you did. Only if the Embraces are free, otherwise you'll have to make your vamps hunt the turn after giving birth. Even Freak Drive won't help you, because they are all 2-caps and after FD they'll be at 1 blood and so can't Embrace. The real progression should be: turn minions 1 2 (full) + 2 uncontrolled + HC in play 2 2 (empty) + 4 (full) 3 4 (empty) + 6 (full) + 1 uncontrolled 4 6 (empty) + 10 (full) + 2 uncontrolled, including a total of 12 Embraces Now, if you take out those 10 vampire with full blood on them, next turn he'll have to hunt with all 6 minions and can't reproduce at all. Piece of cake :) Flux

Flux wrote: > Cameron wrote: > > > > At 4 transfers and perfect hand flow you had: > > turn minions > > 1 2 +2 uncontrolled + HC in play > > 2 6 > > 3 12 +1 uncontrolled > > 4 24 +2 uncontrolled assuming that you have 12 embraces... > > which you did. > > Only if the Embraces are free, otherwise you'll have to make your vamps hunt > the turn after giving birth. Even Freak Drive won't help you, because they > are all 2-caps and after FD they'll be at 1 blood and so can't Embrace. > > The real progression should be: > > turn minions > 1 2 (full) + 2 uncontrolled + HC in play > 2 2 (empty) + 4 (full) > 3 4 (empty) + 6 (full) + 1 uncontrolled > 4 6 (empty) + 10 (full) + 2 uncontrolled, including a total of 12 > Embraces > None of your new Embraces can embrace again until they get a skill card or somehow go up a cap, right? Or maybe I am missing some tech up thread? New Embrace text: The Embrace [Jyhad, V:TES, CE] Cardtype: Action Cost: 2 blood Capacity: 1 capacity Requires a ready vampire. +1 stealth action. Put this card in play; it becomes a 1 capacity vampire. This vampire is not considered unique, must hunt this turn, and is the same clan as the acting vampire. So assuming you get a HC first turn, and then top deck to at least 1 skill card per turn, you are at: turn minions 1 2 [2 caps] (full) + 2 [2 caps] uncontrolled + HC in play 2 2 [2 caps] (empty) + 2 [2 caps] (full) + 2 [1 cap Embraces] (full) 3 2 [2 caps] (empty) + 3 [2 caps(incl 1 Embrace)] (full if Embrace hunts) + 3 [1 cap Embraces] (full) + 1 uncontrolled 4 3 [2 caps (incl 1 Embrace)] (empty) + 3 [2 caps(incl 1 Embrace)] (full if Embrace hunts) + 5 [1 cap Embraces] (full) + 2 uncontrolled, including a total of 7 Embraces. A mere 11 minions, and 2 uncontrolled. Lisette must kill. chris -- chris shorb <www.vtesinla.org> (A V:TES site in development) prince of torrance, california Ultimate Disc - Hockey - Vampire the Eternal Struggle Ebay page <http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/vtessingles/>

>None of your new Embraces can embrace again until they get a skill card or >somehow go up a cap, right? Or maybe I am missing some tech up thread? > >New Embrace text: I think we're talking about the *old* Embrace... Halcyan 2

Gotcha, knew I missed some tech upthread. This thread has gotten so long, and the appropriate parts have been snipped out of the message, I think I will bow out of the discussion, since I have no idea what it's about... ;-) chris Flux wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] -- [ quoted text not captured ]

>Interesting that you point out clix. As far as I know, they don't >have a rarity indicator on the base. There are some general >tendencies, but at least as far as Heroclix goes, a particular colored >base doesn't necessarily translate to a specific rarity level. A >yellow-based figure can be rarity level 1, 2, or 3, for example. I'm >guessing the same applies to MageKnight and MechWarrior, but I don't >know for sure. The rarity is supposed to correlate to both the colour of the ring and the number of the figure - the higher it is, the more rare. The chase figures are mostly the uniques and LEs though - they have silver and gold rings. And the LEs have their level marked upon the box. Numbering the cards is handy if you're going to put them in binders and probably helps to stimulate demand to fill the gaps. Probably helped LotR sales quite a bit. Andrew

Flux <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:<b757d2$b2sdo$1...@ID-121674.news.dfncis.de>... <snip cameron's bad math> > Only if the Embraces are free, otherwise you'll have to make your vamps hunt > the turn after giving birth. Even Freak Drive won't help you, because they > are all 2-caps and after FD they'll be at 1 blood and so can't Embrace. > > The real progression should be: > > turn minions > 1 2 (full) + 2 uncontrolled + HC in play > 2 2 (empty) + 4 (full) > 3 4 (empty) + 6 (full) + 1 uncontrolled > 4 6 (empty) + 10 (full) + 2 uncontrolled, including a total of 12 > Embraces > > Now, if you take out those 10 vampire with full blood on them, next turn > he'll have to hunt with all 6 minions and can't reproduce at all. Piece of > cake :) > > > Flux Damn... stupid forgetting the spending blood thing. Oh well, still far to many minions for me to rush to death. Thanks for catching my bad math. Cameron