Top 10 most overrated cards of the Jyhad

This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: 10) Rat's Warning - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough for a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes up, you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a quick bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the right moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a price to be worthwhile most of the time. 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are underwhelming.

> 10) Rat's Warning - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. Everybody understood that you meant Army of Rats, of course. Rat's Warning would be VERY overrated if one thought it could make his prey lose some pool... ;-) > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). Or if the wrong rule for Wakes / Deflections (have to tap to play deflections) was applied. > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. Which is why you put 4-6 in a deck. And with Anthelios, it isn't such a big problem now. > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) It can stop a change of places at the good moment. Is great with Revelations (or Le Din Tho of course). > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Majesty will have cost him a blood ; it will use his S:CE. Not so bad. > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. ??? ANY deck would be happy to sudden a BD, MT, and either a Haven Uncovered or Secure Haven at the right time. Not to mention HGs, stealth locations etc. A must-include !! > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? Gehenna cards are tricky to use, granted. > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. It allows for cross-table moves in any type of deck. For that, it is priceless. Now, I do agree that it is hard to find master space for it, that you have to choose between it and a SR at each given turn, and that it is very hard to play correctly. I'm still learning. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? Combat intercept, agreed. Powerful for them, shit for the rest. > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. You gotta be kidding. Solaris Nocturnus, Orpheus

> 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are Well, if someone would call for a TOP-10 list of cards, those would be in there. IMHO Dreams is tied with D.I for the spot of the best card in the game. -- johannes walch

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05>... > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: OK. here we go :-) > > 10) Rat's Warning - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. Army of Rats.. well.. only for intercept combat decks that also play with Smiling Jack. > > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). True. BUT nice defence when also using folderol: bleed for 3 => reduce to 0. Bleed for more: Archon Investigation. Not really tourney material. Biggest problem of TC is of course that AUS also gives acces to bounce, so why reduce if you can bounce? > > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. OK. Also see your number 1. > > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) Noooo! DT is IMO a bit too strong, even. why? * you can play it on someone's Dramatic Upheaval that's meant to steal your VP. play it again next turn? normally there's no use. * It royally screws votedecks that have to use vote push. Play the DT after someone emptied his vamp for an awe (and before the voter cap) and next turn he won't be able to play it again. * completely hoses Ancient influence, Pol. stranglehold and Reins of Power. * You need it in every non-camm deck you play: PTO, remember? It gives you an extra turn to kill the IC who tried it. * If people play with only KRC you effectively rob them of a turn. * Last but not least: saying "i have a DT in hand" can be used to make a vote deck see things your way. > > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Nobody plays with 20 majesty anymore. Besides: your Pscyhe! is free... Another thing: guns give their maneuvres in a new combat. Psyche is also a good card vs Drawing Out the Beast and other: "for the duration of this combat"-cards. > > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. It can also save your life vs Hostile Takeover and ToGP. And, of course, Pentex subversion, Haven Uncovered, Secure Haven, Fame, ... > > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? agree here > > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. why? It saves a vamp from anything and everthing. it can save yourself from anything and everything. your pred bounces a bleed to you? DI the deflection. You're sitting next to a multirush deck: DI on the first freakdrive. A bleed to you gets conditioned: DI the conditioning Your key vamp gets rushed: DI the rush etc... > > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? agree here > > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. IME and IMO still one of the strongest cards in the game. it's better than the Barrens. Not only is it faster (2 cards) but you get to draw them first en only have to discard them at the end of the turn. It's a very good way of getting complete combo's in hand, cycling for bleed cards when you're prey tries to stealth jam you,... Best thing: if you're playing more than one in a deck: you can get a turn where you get 11 cards in hand. secondary use: free transfer. What is underwhelming about that? third use: OK this one sucks, but is still an option. grtz, Jeroen

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05>... > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: > > 10) Army of Rats - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. Army of Rats is actually one of the more underrated cards around... don't see this often enough, as it usually does more damage to your prey than most actions for ANI-using clans. > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). This one i'm not sure about. It's pretty ok at best, imo, and my experiments with it have shown that it alone is usually not enough for bleed defense. Maybe paired up with tele misdirection or some other stuff. > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. A lot of decks can make good use of the additional transfers it gives. Superior governs, buying a vampire and transferring off the arcane library pool, etc. > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) It gives you a big say in politics, and one turn DOES matter. It's been a real hype around here, and now i think it's back to being underrated. > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. thats (usually) 2 damage you did, and 2 S:CE cleared from his hand, at the cost of one card, and a tapped minion. that's not bad. Also it has some other uses, the most obvious being in the gun department (maneuver on gun, bang, psyche, maneuver on gun, bang) I think it's neither overrated nor underrated. Used when needed. > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. Sudden reversal does benefit you *alone*. SR is strong (at least as strong as a lot of master cards) because you can -choose- which mastercard to sudden, allowing you to cancel the others' most powerful/essential/important masters. It's a card that's quite underrated imo. > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? It's nasty, but not an event to build a deck on, imo. easy to incorporate in your deck design if playing weenie-event. > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. DI i think is less powerful than SR. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? Isn't that enough? > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. Right. First off, +2 handsize is a *LOT* better than discard 1 card. Secondly, as a transfer accelerator it's worth it as well, as there's iirc no other card that *generates* pool while giving you transfers. Now put all that in one card, add another ability (even though it's kinda weak, it still has a use) and conclude that either: -You are on crack -Have little experience with dreams -Have little experience with v:tes -Have bad judgement or -I fit one of the above :) take care, -Bram Vink

> 10) Rat's Warning - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. I agree with you on this, assuming you meant Army of Rats. I usually splash a couple in animalism decks. He still has to take the action to get rid of it and once you got 2 or 3 in play, it's simply not worth the effort. It's still a pool per turn. > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). I'd put this card on the list of most underrated cards. It stops the alternate rush (Compu hacking), it helps vs those annoying "I bleed for the Edge" attempts that you really don't want to block, it negates those +1 bleed vampires. And finally, more cornercase, but I actually had this situation a couple of times last sunday on ECQ, you don't have to bounce that bleed to someone else, who will just bounce it to HIS prey. > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. I'd not put this in any top 20 or so, but it's still a good card for various decks. It's not nessecarily only good in the first turn, as it can also be used to draw a card from your crypt and influence out a 2-cap. > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) Delaying a Parity Shift after it has been Daring the Dawned and Awed is actually pretty damn good. It surely stops them more often than not, since it's the timed votes you need to delay. Sure, a KRC is usually not worth delaying, but DU, Kindred Restructure or Parity Shift and basically anything that has a requirement is good to delay. And, as said before, it's a good way to get their vote pushers out of their hand. > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Psyche! does more than beat S:CE. It also given you new maneuvers on weapons and replenishes everything that can be done "once per combat". On top of that, you'll usually pack more Psyche! than he packs S:CE simply because you can *always* play your Psyche's while S:CE is limited to being in combat, which is generally not where decks that play S:CE want to be. > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. These are a must-have in many decks. Suddening that Blood Doll or Minion Tap is priceless. Or what about that Palla Grande or Week of Nightmares? Gaint's Blood? A first turn Zillah's Valley or Info Highway? If it gets into your hand at the right time it can mean the different between no VP's and a tablewin. > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? I think nobody rates this card as powerful. If you get it out (Storage Annex, Fortschritt, what do you mean trick shuffler?) it's most likely gonna screw up the table. It's more annoying than anything else. A mistake to ever print, IMO. That said, I have a deck that uses it to some effect. > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. How is this not a good card? I saved my butt *MANY* times and I possess only one. I always put it in any serious deck I build and I have never regretted its inclusion. Mr. Potence is sitting on 6 red cards and a Bum's Rush. DI the Bum's rush, and you're safe for a couple of turns. Your Cailean is about to get royally screwed because you have a bad hand. DI whatever is screwing him and he lives. DI a stealth card or a conditioning that would oust your grandprey. It's *one* pool. What action that's worth DI'ing costs you less than that in resources? I actually DI'd a Approximation of Loyalty that cancelled a bounce card played by my predator. Yeah, I took the bleed for 6 myself and went on to sweep. Something I'd never manage with my grandpredator at 6 extra pool. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? It gains you a pool per turn? It can be stolen, sure. Which deck has actions to spare to steal it constantly? The good thing about this is that you get its benefit the same turn you gain control of it. The only person you don't want to have it, is your prey. If your predator steals it, good, that's one less action to hurt you. If someone crosstable steals it, you can usually deal with him to ping pong it for a while. Your predator is also unlikely to block your action stealing it from him since he has more dangerous things to block. Say, his own predator. If you're sitting with a wall deck somewhere, don't play it. > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. You're kidding on this one right? It's an accelerator, a cycler and a poolgainer. It's along with Bdoll and DI in the Top 3 of best cards in VTES. I doubt someone will disagree.

Frederick Scott wrote: > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: > > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. > > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. > > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. > > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? > > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. These cards are in the top 5% of vtes cards so you gotta be kidding!!!!!! (although i agree dreams is overrated. but it is still very good) stefan

Jeroen wrote: > "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05>... > >>This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual >>usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to >>hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good >>in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: > > > OK. here we go :-) > >>9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough >>for >> a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an >> action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it >> would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). > > > True. BUT nice defence when also using folderol: bleed for 3 => reduce > to 0. Bleed for more: Archon Investigation. Not really tourney > material. Biggest problem of TC is of course that AUS also gives acces > to bounce, so why reduce if you can bounce? > because you don´t tap and it doesn´t cost blood thats why. > >>6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. > > > Nobody plays with 20 majesty anymore. Besides: your Pscyhe! is > free... Another thing: guns give their maneuvres in a new combat. > Psyche is also a good card vs Drawing Out the Beast and other: "for > the duration of this combat"-cards. > psyche makes cel combat decks playable at tourneys. > >>5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a >>quick >> bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain >> cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the >> rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. > > > It can also save your life vs Hostile Takeover and ToGP. And, of > course, Pentex subversion, Haven Uncovered, Secure Haven, Fame, ... > the ec finals were decided by a pentex subversion. i am pretty sure antoni still wished he had a sudden in his hand back then. > > >>3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the >>right >> moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a >> price to be worthwhile most of the time. > di is by far the best card in vampire. it saves you from everything except master cards and events! > >>2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- >> for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction >> combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? > this card gives you 1 pool per turn without any cost and if you want you can share it with other players stefan

Izaak wrote: > > >>...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: >> >>1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses > > are > >> underwhelming. > > > You're kidding on this one right? > > It's an accelerator, a cycler and a poolgainer. It's along with Bdoll > and DI in the Top 3 of best cards in VTES. I doubt someone will > disagree. > > i disagree. it´s good but not top 3 stefan

Frederick Scott <dont...@mymail.com> wrote: > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: [10-9 snipped] > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. > Other uses are underwhelming. Agreed, in that players tend to orgasm in regards to DotS, but I've got to say that getting an 11-card hand for the rest of the turn in a dedicated rush deck is among the happiest moments in VTES. =) Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

Just gotta have my say in this one: > > 10) Army of Rats- Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat Agreed,it's pretyy much junk most of the time > > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > > for > > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes > an > > action that allows you to use it. Don't get me wrong, but..that's the case with most other reactoin cards as well (deflections, tel misdirection etc.) so that logic doesn't hold > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider > not > > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > > up, > > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) Now you have got to be absolutely kidding! You can't really be serous about this one, or? If it weren't for the existence of this card, political decks would be nigh unbeatable.A well-built, well-played political deck suffers more from Delays and DI's than from anything else. As an example: finals of last weekends Belgian ECQ. You can ask Ruben, and all present how many times he failed in puling of his political actions, only due to Delays..You say "if it's your only way to stop votes". I say: it's the best, easiest, and most secure way of stopping them, not to mention very often the only POSSIBLE way to stop them.It screws up their hand, totally throwing them off balance, and prevents nasty things from happening to you > > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. > > Majesty will have cost him a blood ; it will use his S:CE. Not so bad. Just compare simple stats: a Psyche! combat deck can easily pack 10 or more Psyche!. How many decks do you know that pack so many S:CE? I'm prety much known as one of the most non-combattive players, but Psyche! is close to my worst possible adversary most of the time. > > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > > quick > > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of > the > > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. > Try Suddening a Pentex Subversion, or a Dia de Los Muertos for a change. It will make you feel different about Sudden Reversal for sure. > ANY deck would be happy to sudden a BD, MT, and either a Haven Uncovered or > Secure Haven at the right time. Not to mention HGs, stealth locations etc. A > must-include !! Agree with Orpheus > > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? > > Gehenna cards are tricky to use, granted. agreed > > > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > > right > > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high > a > > price to be worthwhile most of the time. > > It allows for cross-table moves in any type of deck. For that, it is > priceless. Now, I do agree that it is hard to find master space for it, that > you have to choose between it and a SR at each given turn, and that it is > very hard to play correctly. I'm still learning. You've got tihs one wrong Orphesu:Start by putting som DI's in your deck, and then try finding master slots for the other ones.Yes, it really is THAT good!! > > > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade > action- > > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? > > Combat intercept, agreed. Powerful for them, shit for the rest. agreed > > > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > > underwhelming. > > You gotta be kidding. I'm still guessing it's gotta be a joke. As the best influence speedup, card drawer, and an admittedly less-used third option, it has been for a long time, and simply still is, and will probably remain the best card BY FAR. > Solaris Nocturnus, > > Orpheus Great minds think alike ;-) Greetz Jo

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05>... > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: > > 10) Rat's Warning - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. > Assuming you mean Army of Rats, it´s good for intercept combat decks. Tzimisce decks and the odd !Nosferatu intercept deck can make great use of it. > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). The more I think about this one, the more I agree with you. If you have access to bounce, it´s usually better to just bounce. > > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. One or two can´t hurt a deck if your average crypt size is, well, above average. Or you happen to be using the Torrance circle Blood Brothers. :) > > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) > Mmmm... don´t quite agree here. Poison Pill now shares a bit of the usefulness of this card, but it is still better than putting in a DI and paying 1pool to cancel a political action the acting methuselah has more copies of anyway. Delaying Tactics when used at the right time can cause the offending player to lose as many or more cards from his hand. > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Then you will have cost the player 2blood usually, and always 2 cards at least, against 1 of yours. Plus it can just give you a press at inferior if you don´t see any S:CE. One of the Best celerity cards I think. > > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. I used to be addicted to including 2 Suddens at least in ALL decks I made. Then I came to your conclusion. Never put another Sudden in 90% of my decks now. THat was years ago, and I never regretted it. > > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? Events that require more than one other Gehenna card in play are tricky... > > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. > Another card I personally don´t like. Only really good against combos. Otherwise i´d only put it in Anson-Parthenon type decks. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? Yeah.. cards that give good benefits but can be stolen are best left for very specific decks. Newbies can royally screw table balance by slapping this, The Rack and some Events in their deck just for the coolness. Only to later realize (some waaaaaaay later) the mistake they´ve made. > > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. Couldn´t agree more! Almost no one in our metagame uses this card. A Blood Doll in it´s place usually gives you more pool than this. A Barrens can cycle more cards than this easily. The term "overrrated" fits this card like a glove. Sure it has it´s versatility, but that´s where some people get fooled by it. Most of the time people use it just for the cycling anyway. Daniel.

Frederick Scott wrote: > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Immortal Grapple vs. Majesty: you need to keep drawing your grapples. Psyche vs. Majesty: he needs to keep drawing his Majesties. They're just different. -- David Cherryholmes

Frederick Scott wrote: > 10) Rat's Warning - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. I don't think I have ever heard anyone claim that Rat's Warning is particularly good. I mean, if you are going to call something "overrated", it should probably have at least been "rated" in the past... I agree that it isn't that useful (90% of the time, you are better off with a Wake or a Forced). But I don't think *anyone* thinks it is that useful. > > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). Much like Rat's Warning, it isn't that useful, and I don't think anyone has ever claimed it is. > > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. Ahh. Now here is a card that is claimed to be good by many, and as such, could be called overrated. Agreed. It is a card that is really good if you get it on the first turn. Meaning you need to have, like, 8 in your deck. > > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) I don't think DT is overrated, as simply mentioned as a common base line defense that is worth considering in most strategic decisions. It is never the best anti vote option, but it is often one of the few viable anti vote options, and as such, comes up a lot. I think I have one or two fringe Delaying Tactics in pretty much every deck I own that doesn't have any other significant vote defense (i.e. no inherrent vote lock or intercept). 'Cause heck, even if you only stop the vote for a turn and it comes back the next turn, keeping that 4 pool means you are alive an extra turn, which increases your chances dramatically, or you keep your minion from getting PTOed for a turn, at which point you can spitefully Rush the IC member, or most importantly, you can stall the Dramatic Upheaval the turn before you oust your prey, which is the turn voted "mostly likely for someone to play Dramatic Upheval". Sure--other vote defenses are better (intercept, vote power, whatever), but I'll still use a mini vote defense module of, like, 2 DT and a Vox Sennis (???--the vote trump OOT) in, like, all my Rush decks and whatever. And DT is usually my last, best hope. > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Also a card that could arguably be called overrated. I don't think it is, but then, I think it is good (and consequently, giving you reason to call it overrated :-) Yeah, it is a 1 for 1 race (ya know, plus the other cards used to hurt someone). But at least Celerity has the option of doing damage without spending a lot of card up front (usually guns)--manuver with a gun, stike with the gun, they Majesty, you Psyche. The card loss is comperable. Yeah, it is 1 for 1 race of cards, but on the up side, the combat deck tends to cycle faster, and consequently draw into Psyches faster than the non combat deck draws in to Majesty. And the combat deck can usually afford to pack more Psyches than the non combat deck can pack Majesties--if the Majesty deck isn't sitting next to a Rush deck/blocker, those Majesties are going to muck up your hand something fierce, where the Rush deck can always cycle Psyches, even if it doesn't see a Majesty the whole game (to just start combat over and shoot you again instead of, like, pressing or additional striking). That, and Psyche is (much like Delaying Tactics) the only real S:CE defense for a celerity based deck. So it is going to be used a lot, regardless of whether or not it is actually that good (which I think it is, but that is me). > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. Ahah! I agree! Completely! Yaa! Yeah. SR? The one of the most overrated cards in the game (int he sense that it actually is rated as very useful by many, many players, and I think it is mostly trash). Yeah, I too have built S+B decks where every master slot is a Sudden Reversal, and that is kinda useful. And yeah, I have been in gams where the game is won simply by someone having a SR at the exact right moment. But the vast majority of the time, SR sits in your hand, waiting for the right moment, and it inevitably gets used on an Animalism master cross table, just to get it out of your hand. > > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? Yeah, this one, much like all the other "killer" events, are much scarier in theory than in reality. Thay are really hard to get into play. And even Recalled is easy to avoid. Sure, *if* it hits the hable and *if* you are playing a very clan focused deck, it'll hose you. But those are two big "if"s. > > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. Also agreed. Much like SR, sooooo very randomly reactive. Occasionally, it'll win you the game. Most of the time, not so much. > > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? Eh. I'd never claim that it is gonna, like, win you games, but it'll never hurt you to put in your deck--it is free pool, possibly a lot of free pool. And it is free pool you can give to someone who needs free pool. > > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. It doesn't *need* any other uses. The other uses (use?) are pure gravy. It is the *best* hand cycler in the game (The Barrens and Nod are both incredibly common, as hand cycling is incredibly good, and as a cycler, it is better than both of those) *and* it can, in a pinch, give you pool and transfers. At the very least, it can pay for itself. Unlike the other cards above that I agree are overrated (in the sense that many folks seem to think they are really useful, but I tend to think not so much), Dreams has *zero* down side. It doesn't clog your hand waiting for the right moment. It is always proactively useful. It is usually free. If you get it early, it speeds up your early game. If you get it mid game, it gives you unprecidented hand cycling ability. If you get it late game, it can get you some vital precious pool *or* cycle in a pinch. I'd never claim that Dreams will win you the game just by being in your hand (although I have many times won a game 'cause Dreams was in my hand...), but it is a card with zero downside and many, many upsides. As I have argued about the card many times, it doesn't have such a earth shattering effect that it needs to be fixed/changed/tweaked/whatever. But it is a fantastic card that is always good to have. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Mr. President, ask not what your rest home can do for you. Ask what you can do for your rest home." -Elvis

Daniel Figueiredo <om...@uol.com.br> wrote: >> 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough >> for >> a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an >> action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it >> would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). > > The more I think about this one, the more I agree with you. If you > have access to bounce, it?s usually better to just bounce. Bouncing won't help you keep the Edge. I find a few well timed Counters can help quite a bit. They're also more frustrating then bounces, since bouncing usually still results in either the combat they wanted (cycling) or getting the Edge (as they wanted) //Doc.

I wrote: > I don't think I have ever heard anyone claim that Rat's Warning is > particularly good. I mean, if you are going to call something "overrated", > it should probably have at least been "rated" in the past... > > I agree that it isn't that useful (90% of the time, you are better off with > a Wake or a Forced). But I don't think *anyone* thinks it is that useful. Yeah. Now that I'm paying attention, yeah, I don't think I have ever seen anyone ever claim that Army of Rats is that good, either. I mean, yeak, ok, people will, like, throw Army of Rats into, like, various intercept decks as some forward pressure, and it usually does what it is supposed to (makes your prey lose some pool or get someone beat up as you intercept them and kill them), but I've never seen anyone claim that Army of Rats is anything other than, like, a moderately utilitarian card that should be much better than it is (like, for instance, have a superior version...) But "overrated"? Hardly. [ quoted text not captured ]

> 10) Army of Rats > 9) Telepathic Counter > 6) Psyche! I've snipped these because I don't hear anyone ranting. > 8) Info Highway > 7) Delaying Tactics > 5) Sudden Reversal > 3) Direct Intervention I agree that people often put these into decks that could make better use of other cards. Especially Sudden Reversal. I try to play with it occasionally, only to find that it's only making my hand size one smaller until I just play it to get rid of it. I've never been a fan of attrition--at least, not unless it's you and him. > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Overrated only until the whole Gehenna thing finally blows over. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - Not many people would argue it should go in your deck if you're not playing intercept+combat. If you're intercept+combat, there is no better pool gain master. > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. I would much like to argue with that description. From your post: > It's just grating to hear certain people drool mindlessly over > them when they're only good in specific circumstances. I would contend that "only good in specific circumstances" applies to DotS LESS than it does to any other card in the ENTIRE GAME. The Barrens is really quite good. A "high-speed Barrens" sounds even better. And Dreams is such, only if and when you want it to be. You could also call it a "way-improved Deal with the Devil", since after replacing itself and being used 3 times you've got (1+2+2+2)=7 cards, and you got to draw first instead of discard first. It is not "short term" because 2 plays of Dreams = 6 turns. Given average game length seems to be 12--15 turns, 6 turns is just under half, and being in play for half of the game != "short-term". I don't think there is better hand-cycling, unless you can protect Fragment (or really mack it with Servitor of Irad. :) Everything else seems to be one-shot or one-at-a-time. To demonstrate Dreams of the Sphinx's use as pool gain, here is a list (compiled before Black Hand, manually added Barranquilla) of Masters that gain pool. Arcane Library (and variant cards) Golconda, Inner Peace Game of Malkav Khobar Towers, Al-Khubar High Museum of Art, Atlanta Ascendance Dreams of the Sphinx Blood Doll Blood Puppy Malkavian Game Protracted Investment Tower of London The Realm of the Black Sun Redeem the Lost Soul Secret Horde Short-Term Investment Slave Auction Tribute to the Master Malkavian Prank Ventrue Investment Using the Advantage Powerbase: Washington, D.C. Powerbase: Chicago Powerbase: Mexico City Powerbase: New York Powerbase: Barranquilla Minion Tap Taking out those that require randomness (Malkavian Prank), high cost (Golconda), opportunity cost (Realm of the Black Sun), and gross MPA's (Short-Term Investment), we are left with: Arcane Library (and variant cards) High Museum of Art, Atlanta Ascendance Dreams of the Sphinx Blood Doll Blood Puppy Tribute to the Master Powerbase: Washington, D.C. Powerbase: Chicago Powerbase: Mexico City Powerbase: New York Powerbase: Barranquilla Minion Tap For each Master (-TttM -Minion Tap) I have listed the pool you would gain after that many turns have gone by: #turns 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Name of Pool gain Arcane Library -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 Ascendance 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Barranquilla -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Blood Puppy -2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Chicago -1 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 High Museum of Art 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Mexico City -2 -1 0 1 2 3 3 3 Montreal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Washington: D.C. -1 -1 0 1 2 2 3 4 Dreams of the Sphinx 0 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 Where the number is written as "# of pool you would gain if you maximized pool retrieval from this card up to that point" and it is assumed that any (D) actions at a card were unsuccessful. Looking at 5 turns in play, (This assumes you'll get 5 turns on average out of a poolgain master) Arcane Library 3 Ascendance 1 Barranquilla 3, possibly burned Blood Doll 5 Blood Puppy probably burned Chicago 2 High Museum of Art unreliable at best Mexico City 2 Montreal 5 Washington: D.C. try putting 6 pool on it Dreams of the Sphinx 2 Meaning that DotS is as good a bet as any for pool gain (save montreal/blood doll). Taking out those that require protection from (D) actions, we have Arcane Library -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 Ascendance 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Dreams of the Sphinx 0 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 So if you can't spare three more MPA's or a vampire, you don't want random pool gain, and you can't count on protecting a location, this is what you're left with. Presumably Dreams is used in so many decks not just to speed up influence, not just to draw a whole new hand (replace Dreams + draw 6 = 7 cards), but to Gain 2 Pool! After all, there are remarkably few options to gain pool via master cards, and actions can be blocked. In conclusion: Dreams is in the mid-range of master-card pool gain. Dreams is on the Very Top of card cycling. Dreams is on the Very Top of versatility. Therefore, Dreams is VERY hard to overrate. I own at least 13 copies of Dreams of the Sphinx. I am planning on having over 30 decks. I do not like switching cards between two or more decks. It follows that I am planning on having around 40 copies of Dreams. Current distribution of Dreams makes this expectation either unrealistic or cost-prohibitive. I would like to see Dreams made common. If a player is likely to have 3 Blood Doll and 2 Dreams in a Tournament-Winning Deck, why do 3 Blood Dolls come in a starter deck, and no Dreams? Alternately, if Dreams were only usable twice... Eh. In the meanwhile, please trade me all your Dreams. -- Brian Still doesn't have a good fix for Dreams, other than more pool-gain masters.

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05>... > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: > > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Not if his S:CE is the ever-annoying Form of Mist. There's also the 'I maneuver out of your hand range and shoot you with this gun. You don't have S:CE? Here, I'll Psyche! and do it again! (Psyche may well still be a little overrated, IMO, but there's value in just burning through somebody's S:CE's as well - especially if they have to pay blood for it.) > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. Also has uses against decks that get much nastier when they have a specific Master in play, especially when it's your predator. Watch the look on the face of somebody playing a Spirit Marionette deck when you Sudden their Heidleburg Castle, for instance. Being able to cancel your predator's stealth-location or a prey's intercept-location is also very nice. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? Giovanni decks Haunting it are pretty amusing. > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. The 'extra pool for the edge' one is underwhelming. When a Dreams hits the table within the first couple of turns, you almost NEVER see it used for card-gain; the ability to get minions out _both_ cheaper and faster early on is used instead, and rightly so. (I agree totally that it's overrated still, but that's more a matter of the absurd value some people give it instead of the usefulness of the card.) -John Flournoy

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ahah! I agree! Completely! Yaa! Yeah. SR? The one of the most overrated > cards in the game (int he sense that it actually is rated as very useful by > many, many players, and I think it is mostly trash). Yeah, I too have built > S+B decks where every master slot is a Sudden Reversal, and that is kinda > useful. And yeah, I have been in gams where the game is won simply by > someone having a SR at the exact right moment. But the vast majority of the > time, SR sits in your hand, waiting for the right moment, and it inevitably > gets used on an Animalism master cross table, just to get it out of your > hand. I think a lot of your thoughts about OOT masters look colored by the idea that playing with a handsize of six for an extended period is an unacceptable, nutpunchy burden. If it's not, then hanging on to that DI or SR until its play becomes a power play is not a problem. And I think we agree that their play could (and often is) a power play. Tacking on that bit about the Animalism master is counter to my experience, and I consider "I needed to flow it" across table to be synonymous with "I suck ass". > Also agreed. Much like SR, sooooo very randomly reactive. Occasionally, > it'll win you the game. Most of the time, not so much. There are just too many megatargets for DI for this to be true. I think you should follow the advice of the Kindred Spirits Junky and *start* your deck around the idea that you'll include 4 DI's, and then see what else you can work in. I play with a bunch of guys who do that, while I don't, and IME they rule the table because of it. I mean, I set myself up by, you know, not playing weenies, and not playing 16 copies of 4 cards each, but if you step away from that line, DI will cream you. -- David Cherryholmes

> >>9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > >>for > >> a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > >> action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > >> would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). > > > > > > True. BUT nice defence when also using folderol: bleed for 3 => reduce > > to 0. Bleed for more: Archon Investigation. Not really tourney > > material. Biggest problem of TC is of course that AUS also gives acces > > to bounce, so why reduce if you can bounce? > > > > because you don´t tap and it doesn´t cost blood thats why. > I know that :-) but it won't save your ass against that deflected bleed of 7 comming your way, will it?

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote in message news:<ceq6dm$3fb$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] I think it's April's fool somewhere. Good luck, Johannes, for the NAC ;-))) Oh, don't forget to add succubus club in the worst-cards-ever. Kamel Senni Prince of Paris. PS : blood doll is a shit card. You've seen, I can do the same jokes. PPS : No, Johannes, the best card of VTES is Succubus Club. It should be banned...

David Cherryholmes wrote: > I think a lot of your thoughts about OOT masters look colored by the > idea that playing with a handsize of six for an extended period is an > unacceptable, nutpunchy burden. If it's not, then hanging on to that DI > or SR until its play becomes a power play is not a problem. And I think > we agree that their play could (and often is) a power play. Tacking on > that bit about the Animalism master is counter to my experience, and I > consider "I needed to flow it" across table to be synonymous with "I > suck ass". Yeah, the Animalism Master part was just hyperbolic color commentary, but ya know, whatever. I don't find the SR problematic 'cause it necessarily takes up a hand slot. It is 'cause it takes up a hand slot hoping it will do something significant, which it may never do, and could be a hand slot taken up by something that I know *will* do something significant. Again, the scores I have seen by the random SR (as opposed to the deck that has nothing but 18 SRs are Masters, which is a very valid deck choice) are vastly outweighed by the times I have seen the SR not have much of an effect. Yeah, having an SR to stop the Minion Tap that is going to make youlose the game is handy when it happens, but I'd rather have a deck that can deal with the clinch Minion Tap proactively somehow (like killing the vampire first, or bleeding enough that I don't care, or whatever). But that is me. > There are just too many megatargets for DI for this to be true. I think > you should follow the advice of the Kindred Spirits Junky and *start* > your deck around the idea that you'll include 4 DI's, and then see what > else you can work in. I play with a bunch of guys who do that, while I > don't, and IME they rule the table because of it. I mean, I set myself > up by, you know, not playing weenies, and not playing 16 copies of 4 > cards each, but if you step away from that line, DI will cream you. Possibly. I've just never been in such an environment locally, tournamently, or anything. Most of the time, I see the DI, like, save someone from a clinch action, and it is often too little or too late. -Peter

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05... > This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual > usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to > hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good > in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: Heh, you picked some good ones to stir up a little controversy. :-) > 10) [Army of Rats] - Unless you can defend it and punk him in combat. Even > then, he can just ignore it and take one whole pool per turn. How many > heavy animalism decks I've built that use one of these. Or none. Sure, true enough. I wouldn't be that likely to build a heavy-Animalism deck that *didn't* intend to block stuff and punk people in combat, myself, though. If it works the way you want it to, it's at least as good as, say, Tasha Morgan: your prey loses an extra pool a turn once you put the permanent in play. Like +bleed permanents, it's best when you can expect it to be in play for a largish number of turns... > 9) Telepathic Counter - It's a neat concept but it just doesn't do enough > for > a reaction card you have to hold in your hand until someone else takes an > action that allows you to use it. If it canceled 2/3 instead of 1/2, it > would be an interesting option (but the game has enough defense as it is). I pretty much agree with this. A lot of people I know don't really play Counter much, but yeah, I do know some who I think overrate it. I have to admit it is annoying to have my bleeds reduced several times in a row by a single untapped vamp of my prey's, but in general I think you're right that that effect-to-cardslot ratio is not in Telepathic Counter's favor. > 8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. Hmm, pretty much, sure. I don't play Info Highway (or see it played) all that often in non-weenie/lots-of-transferring decks though. Main other exception IMO is in a fatty deck that's also going to use Zillah's Valley; having a couple Highways to go with a larger number of Valleys seems sensible in that they're a cheaper (0 vs 1) transfer-accelerator that can also be cycled for free later (which Zillah's can't). > 7) Delaying Tactics - If it's your only way to stop votes, I'd consider not > bothering with it and accepting the fact that if a critical votes comes > up, > you're screwed - because it doesn't actually stop them (usually), only > slows them down. (OK, I don't hate this card as much as I used to - it > does have _some_ value, even in the general case.) I don't agree with this, though. In my opinion there aren't many anti-vote angles worth bothering with, and Delaying Tactics is one of the few (having decent intercept being one of the main alternatives). The turn of "tempo advantage" it gets you is pretty worthwhile pretty often, especially against the "timing-dependent large-swing" votes, and the lack of requirements on the card means it's actually playable in a lot of decks. > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. But (as others have pointed out) your opponent has to use two S:CE to every Psyche you play to keep from getting capped in combat. That's card advantage, baby! :-) > 5) Sudden Reversal - Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a > quick > bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain > cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the > rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*. I rarely play Sudden myself, but there were a few times last night that I wished I'd had one in hand (Giant's Blood, Minion Taps). While I totally get your point about Suddening being a "table altruistic" play a significant amount of the time, it's also true that if someone is playing a master card that specifically screws *you* (predator with Palla Grande, prey with Minion Tap, anyone with Pentex Subversion or Temptation of Greater Power etc), Sudden is a "help myself defensively" card that *does* pretty much benefit you alone (in that it keeps you from being hurt). > 4) Recalled to the Founder - Sure it can put the hurt on someone - after > you've gotten two other event cards in play. You a trick shuffler? I think Dragonbound is probably more significant most of the time, since it doesn't require any "starter" events. I don't see people particularly rating Recalled as mighty, though - as annoying/potentially frustrating, yes. > 3) Direct Intervention - Can save your butt if you're holding one at the > right > moment but most of the time, but a master phase plus a pool is too high a > price to be worthwhile most of the time. :-) I find DI very worthwhile, myself. Like Delaying Tactics it makes a good magic bullet against a lot of opposing special-purpose sort of large-swing cards. > 2) Powerbase: Montreal - This is a card for weeny decks ("I'll trade action- > for-action between my weeny and your Leandro any day") and reaction > combat decks. It's other uses are...what other uses? I think a lot of people I know used to like Powerbase Montreal more than they do now. The romance is over, we now see that it makes games drag on too long and doesn't usually benefit the person playing it enough more than everyone else to justify that. > ...and the most overrated card in Jyhad is: > > 1) Dreams of the Spinx - A short term high-speed Barrens. Other uses are > underwhelming. Heh, another one that I find hard to overrate - not quite as much so as Blood Doll I suppose, but I think Dreams really is that good. The pool gain/influence acceleration is awfully nice in the early game, especially if it helps where you would otherwise be 1 transfer short of the vampire you want to get. And the card-drawing is really good in the midgame, a lot of the time. As other people have said, the higher speed and hand size rather than just discard/draw makes its cycling quite a bit higher-quality than Barrens's. Josh the barrenses, we don't trust them, we don't

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<ARZPc.3542$oA5.3208@okepread05>... > Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: TROLL!! :) > 10) Rat's Warning Yes, overrated. > 9) Telepathic Counter Yes, overrated. Nonetheless, it is my "most hated" card in VTES. I just can't stand "wasting" actions when my Assamites bleed for 1 and get countered. > 8) Info Highway Great for weenie decks with lots of 2-caps. Not overrated, though Uniqueness makes it more of a "prayer" card in most decks. Anthelios makes it better. > 7) Delaying Tactics Yes, way overrated. > 6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. Yes, overrated. Reactive S:CE defense is mostly pointless. Saving grace is Psyche! saves you from Aggro-poke/Rotschreck where Immortal Grapple won't. > 5) Sudden Reversal Yes, overrated. There are plenty of occasions where I wish I would have had a Sudden Reversal in hand. However, I think this one is primarily best used in S&B decks where you want to deny your prey that first crucial Blood Doll or Minion Tap. > 4) Recalled to the Founder Yes, overrated. So this hurts weenie decks or decks that get a major advantage. It's a strong effect, but it's not going to ever have a major impact in general gameplay. > 3) Direct Intervention Not overrated. This card is extremely strong in almost every circumstance unless you're facing Anson/AR/MT/Golconda.dec. You troll! :P :) > 2) Powerbase: Montreal Not overrated...in the right deck. This is a very good card for weenies and intercept decks like you mention. I would and do certainly include it in all such decks I make. I also often put it in ones where I play with significant numbers of 5-cap vampires in my crypt, on the off chance I'll get a 5-cap on turn 1. > 1) Dreams of the Spinx (Leon Spinx?) Not overrated. Uniqueness again is what makes this card "balanced." I almost always put 2-3 of these in every deck which uses 9+ capacity vampires or may suffer from hand jam. Turn 1 accelerators are very nice and this one happens to function as a cycler in mid- to late-game.

>This is my measure of popular perceived usefulness vs. real, actual >usefulness. It's not that these are bad cards. It's just grating to >hear certain people drool mindlessly over them when they're only good >in specific circumstances. Read it, snarl at me, and have anger: Measuring overratedness is a challenging endeavor, isn't it? I think the easiest is to compare personal valuations to people around you. When trying to gauge stranger valuations, it's hard to pinpoint just how strongly they feel about a card. Of course, when people constantly say "this is one of the top 3 cards in the game", there's something to work with. Then, perceptions change constantly and the game itself changes every once in a while. Having said that, if I had to pare down to a 10 card list of what I felt people overrated the most, it would be something like (in alphabetical order, ignoring Gehenna): Art Scam Disarm Gather Khobar Towers Read the Winds Skin of Rock Tribute to the Master Visit from the Capuchin Year of Fortune Zillah's Valley Out of the cards you mentioned, I'd consider PB: Montreal. I tried to eliminate cards that were really bad that people thought weren't really bad, i.e. tried to come up with cards that either were okay but thought of as particularly good or were even good but were thought of as OMG!. Just to get people to focus on the difference between saying something is overrated and saying something isn't good, for instance, I see Read the Winds as a good card but not up to the hype. I suppose it's not terribly useful to people to just list the cards without any explanation, but I want to try to cut down on *some* of the verbiage and I still see this thread being Fred's show. >8) Info Highway - For decks not built to take constant advantage of a fifth > and sixth transfer, it's benefit is entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards. Those are not good odds. I'm not sure what suggests people overrate this. I don't see people make a big deal of playing it. If anything, right this moment, I'd be thinking people underrated it. Certainly, our valuations of it (and other cards) color views. I see Info Highway often having uses in the mid or endgame and being the most powerful first turn play in the game. >6) Psyche! - You Psyche!, he S:CE's again. Oh, joy. I think people overrate Celerity as a whole, but without Psyche!, why would anyone play Celerity combat (without support from things like T. Tracking or Grapple) given that combat ends would always defeat it? As I said, PB: Montreal is the only one on your list that might make mine. And, having seen it in fewer decklists and fewer "you should play this" comments, I'm not so sure it would mark. What we could use, though, is probably an underrated thread. T10 overrated isn't likely to stimulate deckbuilding creativity whereas T10 underrated may. But, it might be a real pain to come up with a well-organized list.

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<2nc6esF...@uni-berlin.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] More than different. As you know, one IG is typically sufficient, coupled with other Potence damage enhancers, to put down a minion once you engage them in combat. If someone survives two rounds of Potence combat under IG, relying on S:CE as combat defense, they're extremely fortunate. Psyche! on the other hand means that both you and your opponent get another chance to cycle into more combat, and your opponent has likely untapped to boot! You were wise not to even delve into strike cards. :)

Jeff Kuta wrote: > More than different. As you know, one IG is typically sufficient, > coupled with other Potence damage enhancers, to put down a minion once > you engage them in combat. If someone survives two rounds of Potence > combat under IG, relying on S:CE as combat defense, they're extremely > fortunate. Yeah, and you got that guy -- which is good. But he's still got the Majesty in his hand -- which is bad. > Psyche! on the other hand means that both you and your opponent get > another chance to cycle into more combat, and your opponent has likely > untapped to boot! He can go to torpor empty and untapped, then. I guess it does him some good. I stand by what I said: Psyche forces them to have the next Majesty. Grapple forces you to have the next grapple. They each have benefits. Now, we both like Assamites a lot (too much, perhaps), and blowing all kinds of pre-range and scrabbling to long is a big, fat waste. Which is why Quietus is a nutpunch, since it'll siren's call you into thinking you can build a deck around those strikes. But I think we should leave grapple to potence and trim cards with a set range effect. Set range/set range + burn a blood at superior would be about right, I think. > You were wise not to even delve into strike cards. :) You mean the ones I just delved into? :) -- David Cherryholmes

I惴 sure the original poster was joking. All those cards are staple goods in our enviroment (惡ept that Recalled to the Founder). Proposing D.I and Dreams to be overvalued is like... like... not true.

> Art Scam > Disarm > Gather > Khobar Towers > Read the Winds > Skin of Rock > Tribute to the Master > Visit from the Capuchin > Year of Fortune > Zillah's Valley I think your list is somewhat a little better. Let me try mine, in no particular order 1 - Army of rats : I don't think this puts sufficient pressure on your prey to be worth the slot. 2 - Gather : OK, it's cool. No more than cool. 3 - Year of Fortune : a striclty pointless card 4 - Shadow step. Manoeuver for free, then ? Good, but not THAT good. 5 - Protect thine own. Not quite as efficient as many people here seem to think. 6 - Blood Sweat. One of the game crappiest cards, close to chainsaw and such. Still played by some quietus maniacs. 7 - Skin of steel. Which often turns into "press, rince & repeat" 8 - Form of corruption. Which has the side effect of being the more efficient "bleed deterrent" in the game. 9 - Ian Forrestal. This vampire sucks completely. 10 - Typhonic beast. Yes it is funny. No it isn't powerfull. Not even a little bit.

I think it was Brian <firstco...@aol.com>, who once wrote: > Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > Dreams of the Sphinx 0 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 Wow, this really makes things clear to me. I'll stick with blood dolls. :P Rogar

"Rogar" <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote in message news:slrnch49lr.cpm...@toad.stack.nl... [ quoted text not captured ] Don't forget that the pool you're gaining from the Blood Doll is actually coming off of a single vampire of yours. All the other pool gainers there actually make pool (rather than transmuting blood into pool). With that slant, you could list Minion Tap: Minion Tap 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 And "see" that it is the better deal. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Brian <firstco...@aol.com> wrote: > > #turns 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > Name of Pool gain > > Arcane Library -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 This assumes being willing to spend 2 transfers to gain the pool. > Ascendance 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 You could play Ascendance every turn... > Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Assuming the minion has 8 blood to give... > Chicago -1 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 Why take it off every other turn, let it grow! > Washington: D.C. -1 -1 0 1 2 2 3 4 Why put only 1 on it? > Where the number is written as "# of pool you would gain if you > maximized pool retrieval from this card up to that point" and it is > assumed that any (D) actions at a card were unsuccessful. I don't see you maximizing. > Washington: D.C. try putting 6 pool on it :) And then block the hell out of anyone that tries. So much fun. Then follow up by graverobbing the attacker you liked the most. //Doc.

Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com> wrote: > All those cards are staple goods in our enviroment That sort of proves his point, actually. //Doc.

> PPS : No, Johannes, the best card of VTES is Succubus Club. It should be banned... Well it depends. When you are down to 2 players Succubus Club isn´t really THAT good :-))) J.

I think it was LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>, who once wrote: > "Rogar" <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote in message news:slrnch49lr.cpm...@toad.stack.nl... > > I think it was Brian <firstco...@aol.com>, who once wrote: > > > Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > > Dreams of the Sphinx 0 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 > > > > Wow, this really makes things clear to me. I'll stick with blood dolls. :P > > Don't forget that the pool you're gaining from the Blood Doll is actually > coming off of a single vampire of yours. All the other pool gainers there > actually make pool (rather than transmuting blood into pool). There was a smiley at the end, you know. ;) Still, two pool doesn't make Dreams much of a pool gainer. Now, if I needed early tranferring speed -and- later card cycling, then it starts looking better. Maybe I just don't like tossing the same stuff in every deck. The Blood Dolls is bad enough. > With that slant, you could list Minion Tap: > > Minion Tap 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 > > And "see" that it is the better deal. Sure, if you're using 11-caps. Or high-caps, anyway. They can fill back up pretty fast anyway. Rogar

"Rogar" <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote in message news:slrnch4h5m.cpm...@toad.stack.nl... > I think it was LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>, who once wrote: > > "Rogar" <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote in message news:slrnch49lr.cpm...@toad.stack.nl... > > > I think it was Brian <firstco...@aol.com>, who once wrote: > > > > Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > > > Dreams of the Sphinx 0 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 > > > > > > Wow, this really makes things clear to me. I'll stick with blood dolls. :P > > > > Don't forget that the pool you're gaining from the Blood Doll is actually > > coming off of a single vampire of yours. All the other pool gainers there > > actually make pool (rather than transmuting blood into pool). > > There was a smiley at the end, you know. ;) I only saw a tongue-out emoticon, not a smiley. :-) > > With that slant, you could list Minion Tap: > > > > Minion Tap 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 > > > > And "see" that it is the better deal. > > Sure, if you're using 11-caps. That's more of the point I was making, yeah. Blood Doll is only worth 8 on 8 turns with a stack of assumptions. So as long as we're passing all the pre-reqs to assumptions, Minion Tap comes out on top. > Or high-caps, anyway. They can fill back up > pretty fast anyway. Um, sure. Good luck with that. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

I think it was LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>, who once wrote: > "Rogar" <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote in message news:slrnch4h5m.cpm...@toad.stack.nl... > > Or high-caps, anyway. They can fill back up > > pretty fast anyway. > > Um, sure. Good luck with that. :-) Woo, LSJ made sarcastic comments about my deck building techniques! *swoon* ;) Rogar

>9 - Ian Forrestal. This vampire sucks completely. Throwing vampires in the mix would be fun, but that way lies more seemingly counterproductive arguing. As for Forestal, he was very much overrated at one point. Thing about him, though, is that he constantly gets stronger. Bloodlines turned him from not good to good. Even without bloodline discipline support, more multidisciplines (especially if he has one of the disciplines to begin with), more 3-ways, et al just fuel that ability. Forestal, like the names of the forest guardians in the Thomas Covenant series. I actually don't care much if people misspell card names and I wouldn't care if people misspelled Forestal if they did it in a variety of ways such that people realized it wasn't spelled correctly - Foresstal, Forestall, etc. The problem with constantly, pervasively spelling it Forrestal is that it causes more people to misspell it that way since it seems right.

Curevei wrote: > As for Forestal, he was very much overrated at one point. Thing about him, > though, is that he constantly gets stronger. Bloodlines turned him from not > good to good. Even without bloodline discipline support, more > multidisciplines > (especially if he has one of the disciplines to begin with), more 3-ways, et > al > just fuel that ability. Sigh. Ian Forrestal is not overrated (or, ya know, not for my money), but he always was and continues to be completely wrong and a totally bad idea. I mean, it is mostly irrelevant, as no other Ian Forrestal vampires have been printed (i.e. vampires with 25+ exra points in disciplines than they should have), so his status as a bad precident is no more significant than most of the Sabbat vampires with way too many points (although none have as many as Ian...). But still, just wrong in a design sense. Always was. Will continue to be. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Sigh. Ian Forrestal is not overrated (or, ya know, not for my money), but he > always was and continues to be completely wrong and a totally bad idea. I > mean, it is mostly irrelevant, as no other Ian Forrestal vampires have been > printed (i.e. vampires with 25+ exra points in disciplines than they should > have), so his status as a bad precident is no more significant than most of > the Sabbat vampires with way too many points (although none have as many as > Ian...). But still, just wrong in a design sense. Always was. Will continue > to be. Costing vampires based on disciplines may be easy and mostly somewhat correct, but why should it be a hard and fast rule? Consider a vampire who has, oh, 13 disciplines at basic. And that's it. No votes, no +anything, no specials, nothing. Should this vampire really be an 11 cap? Who would play it? Conversely, would Helena's WwEF-like special be "fair" to put onto an AUS CEL 5-cap? --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan wrote: > Costing vampires based on disciplines may be easy and mostly somewhat > correct, but why should it be a hard and fast rule? 'Cause, in general, it is a hard and fast rule. I mean, yeah, you could certainly argue that it would be ok to build vampires completely arbitrarily (i.e. there being no relationship at all between the size of the vampire and thenumber of abilities) and it wouldn't destroy the game. But that isn't how the game works currently. Nor is it ever how that game has worked. Vampires have always been designed such that there is a direct relationship between capacity and abilities. Ian Forrestal completely ignore this relationship. If you are going to have rules, you might as well follow them. Again, that Ian exists isn't breaking the game. But for my money, it is much better that the current design team chose to leave Ian Forrestal (which the current design team didn't design, mind you) as a freak outlier rather than using him as an excuse to make lots of other vampires that completely ignore the existing design rules. Vampire design follows hard and fast rules. And it still does. Ian is a freak outlier. And seeing how the vast majority of the vampires printed since SW have followed the hard and fast rule, it is reasonable to think that the designers want to continue to follow that hard and fast rule. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BD37F19C.18B11%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Curevei wrote: > > As for Forestal, he was very much overrated at one point. > > Sigh. Ian Forrestal is not overrated (or, ya know, not for my money), but he > always was and continues to be completely wrong and a totally bad idea. IMO, very few people, except us fanatics, would play with Ian if he were an Assamite with that special ability. A good deal of his strength is AUS/DOM, regardless of his special ability.

> This assumes being willing to spend 2 transfers to gain the pool. Assuming we're talking about pool gain here. Besides, if you use it as a transfer to get a minion out it's also pool gain; it's pool you don't have to spend getting that minion out. > > Ascendance 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 He's talking about one cardslot. You can't put 8 Ascendances in a single card slot. > You could play Ascendance every turn... > > > Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > Assuming the minion has 8 blood to give... Yup. He can hunt every turn though :-) > > Chicago -1 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 > > Why take it off every other turn, let it grow! And have it stolen at 3 blood? Good idea. > > Washington: D.C. -1 -1 0 1 2 2 3 4 > > Why put only 1 on it? > > > Where the number is written as "# of pool you would gain if you > > maximized pool retrieval from this card up to that point" and it is > > assumed that any (D) actions at a card were unsuccessful. > > I don't see you maximizing. > > > Washington: D.C. try putting 6 pool on it > > :) > > And then block the hell out of anyone that tries. So much fun. > Then follow up by graverobbing the attacker you liked the most. I'm sure we play a different game. People will go for PB Washington if you put 2 on it (making 4 with the blood bank addition). That's *4* pool. Can be gained by a single (D) action. Sure, you can block all stealing attemps? You're playing two player games then? Or you could of course block your grandprey's attemps to gain an easy 4 (or 6) pool and beat the living shit out of his minion, graverob it and hand your grandpredator the game. Yah; sounds like a good plan.

Jeff Kuta wrote: > IMO, very few people, except us fanatics, would play with Ian if he > were an Assamite with that special ability. A good deal of his > strength is AUS/DOM, regardless of his special ability. And again, missing the point. Ian is not particularly useful. But he is a bad idea, 'cause he completely, utterly ignores the relationship between capacity and disciplines. But it isn't really a problem, 'cause the current design team, which did not design Ian, did not use him as a precident to make other absurd vampires (like, say, a 6 point vampires with a mysterious title that grants him 10 votes. Or a 9 point vampire with +12 hand damage). But if he *had* been used as a precident (i.e. the current design team made all sorts of crazy vampires that totally ignored the basic design scheme and then pointed to Ian saying "well, *he* doesn't follow the template..."), that would have been bad. 'Cause Ian is wrongly designed. And shouldn't be. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BD37F19C.18B11%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Curevei wrote: > > > As for Forestal, he was very much overrated at one point. Thing about him, > > though, is that he constantly gets stronger. Bloodlines turned him from not > > good to good. Even without bloodline discipline support, more > > multidisciplines > > (especially if he has one of the disciplines to begin with), more 3-ways, et > > al > > just fuel that ability. > > Sigh. Ian Forrestal is not overrated (or, ya know, not for my money), but he > always was and continues to be completely wrong and a totally bad idea. I > mean, it is mostly irrelevant, as no other Ian Forrestal vampires have been > printed (i.e. vampires with 25+ exra points in disciplines than they should > have), so his status as a bad precedent is no more significant than most of > the Sabbat vampires with way too many points (although none have as many as > Ian...). But still, just wrong in a design sense. Always was. Will continue > to be. I think you are ignoring the fact that his 'extra disciplines' aren't actual disciplines. A point I'm certain I have voiced before :) If he had 20+ points in disciplines it would set a bad precedent, but he doesn't. He has 2 seperate abilities, one to play every card that requires a discipline at inferior, and one that gives him a superior ability if you put a master: discipline on him. NB: The fact that his ability allows him to play cards as if he has a discipline is irrelevant. It is a special ability, and he's not too strong in play. He's not dominating, he's not gamebreaking. His special ability is costed well. *even though it mimics disciplines* If you want to make a point about the design templates, you should say that 8cap vampires shouldn't have 3 points in special abilities. -Bram Vink deja vu

Darky wrote: > I think you are ignoring the fact that his 'extra disciplines' aren't > actual disciplines. A point I'm certain I have voiced before :) Yes, yes you have. > If he had 20+ points in disciplines it would set a bad precedent, but > he doesn't. He has 2 seperate abilities, one to play every card that > requires a discipline at inferior, and one that gives him a superior > ability if you put a master: discipline on him. And the functional difference between having 20+ disciplines printed on him at inferior and his two special abilities? Virtually nil. Yeah, it makes a difference for, like, a small handfull of cards (in the Kiss of Ra vein that, to the disadvantage of Ian, are becoming more common; the very small number of cards that affect a vampires card text). The vast majority of the time, his "special abilities" are simply "I have 20+ discplines at inferior, but there wasn't space to print them". > NB: The fact that his ability allows him to play cards as if he has a > discipline is irrelevant. It is a special ability, and he's not too > strong in play. He's not dominating, he's not gamebreaking. And no one is saying he is. But if he had been the start of a wave of similarly designed vampires, he would have been very, very bad. > His special ability is costed well. *even though it mimics > disciplines* If you say so. And another vampire with a special ability that said "this vampire has no title, but has 10 votes in any referendum" would be ok? It mimics having a title without actually having a title. No other vampire gets 10 votes. Let's say it costs 3 points for the vampire. > If you want to make a point about the design templates, you should say > that 8cap vampires shouldn't have 3 points in special abilities. The point I want to make about design templates is that it isn't a good idea to circumvent them by inventing a special ability, even if it is more expensive than most other special abilities, that is essentially equivelant to having 20+ disciplines printed on the card. You can invent ways that it isn't like having 20+ disciplines printed on the card all you want. That doesn't mean it isn't like having 20+ disciplines printed on the card. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 05 Aug 2004 17:50:58 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled: [snip] >Forestal, like the names of the forest guardians in the Thomas Covenant series. > I actually don't care much if people misspell card names and I wouldn't care actually, spelling card names right can really help for when people later do searches for various things. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<41123893$0$6968$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>... > Brian <firstco...@aol.com> wrote: > > > > #turns 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > Name of Pool gain > > > > Arcane Library -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 > > This assumes being willing to spend 2 transfers to gain the pool. Actually, I assume that at on any given turn, I am either done bringing out vampires, or not done bringing out vampires. If I am done, then I'm not going to use my transfers for anything else and I transfer back at no real cost. If I'm not done, then Arcane Library gives me 1 pool AND 1 transfer each turn. (IF I want to transfer onto one vampire in my uncontrolled region AND off of a second, most vampires can hold a couple blood long enough for me to finish transfering forward, and I can transfer back later when transfers don't mean anything to me.) > > Ascendance 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 > > You could play Ascendance every turn... ...But then I'd be comparing the value of 5 or 6 Ascendance to one lone Blood Doll. (And by the way, Blood Doll would still get me as much pool.) :) > > Blood Doll 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > Assuming the minion has 8 blood to give... In a large vampire deck, you have 8 blood to give. In a weenie deck, bring out Basil, give him a Blood Doll, hunt every turn. In a combat deck, pack enough Tastes of Vitae for Blood Doll to have an insignificant cost. Again, I was maximizing each card's pool production. In order for us to talk about the maximum production of 1 Blood Doll, we must assume we can take one blood off of it each turn. > > Chicago -1 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 > > Why take it off every other turn, let it grow! I did not take it off every other turn. Each entry shows pool gain if Pb:C gains a counter every turn, then the pool is all taken off on the turn corresponding with that entry. Turn 1, player must have lost 1 pool. (-1) Turn 2, player puts one on, but has been unable to gain any yet. (-1) Turn 3, player may have put one on and taken it off. (0) Turn 4, player may have put on twice and taken them off. (+1) Turn 5, player may have put on thrice and taken them off. (+2) Turn 6, player may have put on four times and taken them off (+3) I would not take off every other turn; I would maximize pool gain for each turn separately. The chart of how much pool you can gain was not intended to be linear. > > Washington: D.C. -1 -1 0 1 2 2 3 4 > > Why put only 1 on it? Turn 1, only possible return is "paid 1 pool." (-1) Turn 2, best possible return is to not put counters on. (-1) Turn 3, best return is put 1 pool on, and take two counters off. (0) Turn 4, best return is put 2 pool on, and take four counters off. (1) Turn 5, best return is put 3 pool on, and take six counters off. (2) Turn 6, best return is still put 3 on, take 6 off. (2) Turn 7, best return is just like turn 5, plus put 1 pool on and take 2 off. (3) I hope you understand what I am doing here. Turn 4 (above) and Turn 5 (above) cannot coexist. You must choose one or the other. Each one maximizes Pb:WDC's pool gain for that turn, but not for any of the others. A chart of Powerbase: Washington, D.C.'s pool change when taken to be both linear and long-term would read: W, D.C. -1 -4 -2 0 2 -1 1 3 5 2 Choppy and crappy and clear why nobody uses Pb:WDC -- Because even at turn 10, you've only gained 2 pool. > > Where the number is written as "# of pool you would gain if you > > maximized pool retrieval from this card up to that point" and it is > > assumed that any (D) actions at a card were unsuccessful. > > I don't see you maximizing. Getting the pool gains listed above to come out in the /order/ listed would be impossible for some of the cards. I only intended to maximize pool [for each entry], not [for each entry given previous entry states were all passed through] -- Brian

Brian <firstco...@aol.com> wrote: >> I don't see you maximizing. > > Getting the pool gains listed above to come out in the /order/ listed > would be impossible for some of the cards. I only intended to > maximize pool [for each entry], not [for each entry given previous > entry states were all passed through] Much more clear now :) //Doc.

The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<41123a2f$0$6968$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>... > Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > All those cards are staple goods in our enviroment > > That sort of proves his point, actually. Care to explain that remark before I take it as an insult? How is the cards being staple cards in our enviroment = the cards are overrated?

[ quoted text not captured ] If a card is overrated it will obviously be used a lot, since people find it's value to be high. So you'd be very likely to see a lot of overrated cards. And you claiming you see these cards a lot, well, means they might very well be overrated then. The 'sort of' points to the flaw, since it is by no means proof that all of these cards should not be rated as high as they are rated. But the fact that you see these cards a lot only backs up his preposition of the cards being overrated, it does not counteract it. Hence the 'sort of proofs his point' //Doc.

The Doctor wrote: > So you'd be very likely to see a lot of overrated cards. And you claiming > you see these cards a lot, well, means they might very well be overrated > then. Or it means they may just be good. If I open the refridgerator and there's no food inside, it might very well mean a food thief has broken into my house and eaten all my food, or it may simply mean that I'm lazy and put off going to the grocery store too long. --Colin McGuigan

"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:S7GdncnU4Ow...@speakeasy.net... > The Doctor wrote: > > So you'd be very likely to see a lot of overrated cards. And > > you claiming you see these cards a lot, well, means they > > might very well be overrated then. > > Or it means they may just be good. Well, the point is, a card being seen a lot doesn't prove it's *not* overrated, which was what the other guy was trying to suggest. I think the people who were saying things like "Telepathic Counter _isn't_ rated highly in the first place so how can it be overrated?" made a lot more sense. Fred

The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<411a58d4$0$48933$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>... > Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<41123a2f$0$6968$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>... > >> Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > All those cards are staple goods in our enviroment > >> > >> That sort of proves his point, actually. > > > > Care to explain that remark before I take it as an insult? How is the > > cards being staple cards in our enviroment = the cards are overrated? > > If a card is overrated it will obviously be used a lot, since people find > it's value to be high. > > So you'd be very likely to see a lot of overrated cards. And you claiming > you see these cards a lot, well, means they might very well be overrated > then. > The 'sort of' points to the flaw, since it is by no means proof that all > of these cards should not be rated as high as they are rated. > But the fact that you see these cards a lot only backs up his preposition > of the cards being overrated, it does not counteract it. Hence the 'sort > of proofs his point' > > //Doc. Yeah, I agree with Colin. And if the cards are used alot (in our excellent swedish enviroment AND in the tournament winning deck archive), I stick to them being good, not overrated. Pretty basic. This is my quick rundown: 10.) Army of rats - No other card does this effect, and a intercept decks like it. 9.) Tele. counter - Cheap card that doesn´t tap the user. Good in decks like Brinkmanship. 8.) Info Highway - The comment "entirely worthless unless it comes up in the top 9 or 10 cards" suggests the poster never thought about using 4-5 copies. Or? Absolutely essential (with Zillahs Valley) in decks like OBF-Parity Shift-Obedience-Ventrues. 7.) Delaying Tactics - The only defense for most decks against that critial vote that enables some vote-decks to win (changing places and stuff like that). Sometimes its absolutely important to slow things down, mess up the timing, not STOP a deck. 6.) Psyche! - If Psyche! is that bad against S:CE, why do people bother playing it? All the time? Sure, IG is better, but all decks can´t use IG. 5.) Sudden Reversal - See Delaying tactics. Twarting that Minion Tap that enables a deck to survive you/that Fame that would kill you is not bad. What does "Has uses against prey pool gain but if you're not a quick bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have or doesn't draw his pool gain cards), it's just you sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table. Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*." actually MEAN?? 4.) Recalled to the Founder - Agreed, but then again, I´ve seen it in play like ONE time, and that was in a casual game. 3.) Direct Intervention - See DT and SR above. The card has a totally UNIQUE effect and affects EVERY minion card. There is no end to the number of games I´ve seen when this card has been decisive. 2.) Powerbase: Montreal - It is MEANT to be used by decks that can defend it, or for being traded between allies which can spare the actions to get it. Why the original poster thought something else is not known to me. 1.) Dreams of the Spinx - Calling this a "short term high-speed Barrens" is downright stupid. Having a 9-hand size for 3 turns is often a matter of sweep or not for decks like S&B, and its not bad for any other decks either. The TWD-archive speaks its clear language on this one. The only reason not to use at lease a couple of these in any deck is it being unique - but so is Barrens, Elder Library and Fragment.

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BD3915F3.18B58%pd...@lightlink.com>... > > If he had 20+ points in disciplines it would set a bad precedent, but > > he doesn't. He has 2 seperate abilities, one to play every card that > > requires a discipline at inferior, and one that gives him a superior > > ability if you put a master: discipline on him. > > And the functional difference between having 20+ disciplines printed on him > at inferior and his two special abilities? Virtually nil. Yeah, it makes a > difference for, like, a small handfull of cards (in the Kiss of Ra vein > that, to the disadvantage of Ian, are becoming more common; the very small > number of cards that affect a vampires card text). The vast majority of the > time, his "special abilities" are simply "I have 20+ discplines at inferior, > but there wasn't space to print them". More and more cards have clauses allowing vampires with certain disciplines to do something. Ian is unable to exploit those opportunities. His ability only works with cards you actually pack (as opposed to having Fortitude or Potence 'just in case'). Meaning, the only way you can exlpoit his ability is to put in cards (not counting fragments and antiques). Doing that, you'll face the very same obstacles you face when building an Ivan Krenyenko or other many discipline, one-man show deck. It is generally more efficient to use a vampire that has actual disciplines you need. Especially since Ian has only inferiors. > > NB: The fact that his ability allows him to play cards as if he has a > > discipline is irrelevant. It is a special ability, and he's not too > > strong in play. He's not dominating, he's not gamebreaking. > > And no one is saying he is. But if he had been the start of a wave of > similarly designed vampires, he would have been very, very bad. Agreed. > > His special ability is costed well. *even though it mimics > > disciplines* > > If you say so. And another vampire with a special ability that said "this > vampire has no title, but has 10 votes in any referendum" would be ok? It > mimics having a title without actually having a title. No other vampire gets > 10 votes. Let's say it costs 3 points for the vampire. No. The vampire should read, "this vampire can play cards that require titles as if he or she had the minimal necessary title to play them". > > If you want to make a point about the design templates, you should say > > that 8cap vampires shouldn't have 3 points in special abilities. > > The point I want to make about design templates is that it isn't a good idea > to circumvent them by inventing a special ability, even if it is more > expensive than most other special abilities, that is essentially equivelant > to having 20+ disciplines printed on the card. You can invent ways that it > isn't like having 20+ disciplines printed on the card all you want. That > doesn't mean it isn't like having 20+ disciplines printed on the card. I thinks Ian is perfectly okay the way he is, pretty far from being overpowered. His ability is a very strong one but it is pretty much cornercase given the way effective decks usually work. He is an excellent filler for certain one-man-show or odd-discipline-combo decks. We are thankful though that he is Unique and so is his power. Bye, Daneel

some of these cards are overated. But heard onybody complaining aboat an army of rats. here is my list. I dont think anybody is interested in the list and I dont blaim em. 1. Wait a minute..... I could just waste my time commenting on usefull topics. goodbye Oortje

Colin McGuigan <magu...@bgonespeakeasy.net> wrote: > The Doctor wrote: >> So you'd be very likely to see a lot of overrated cards. And you claiming >> you see these cards a lot, well, means they might very well be overrated >> then. > > Or it means they may just be good. Next time read the whole post. //Doc.

> And the functional difference between having 20+ disciplines printed on him > at inferior and his two special abilities? Virtually nil. Yeah, it makes a > difference for, like, a small handfull of cards (in the Kiss of Ra vein > that, to the disadvantage of Ian, are becoming more common; the very small > number of cards that affect a vampires card text). The vast majority of the > time, his "special abilities" are simply "I have 20+ discplines at inferior, > but there wasn't space to print them". The interactional difference between vampire and library card discipline requirements is the fundamental flaw in your arguement. > > His special ability is costed well. *even though it mimics > > disciplines* > > If you say so. And another vampire with a special ability that said "this > vampire has no title, but has 10 votes in any referendum" would be ok? It > mimics having a title without actually having a title. No other vampire gets > 10 votes. Let's say it costs 3 points for the vampire. This is a poor strawman arguement. You should state that he has no title and 10 votes but can only cast 3 of them either for or against a referendum. That would me a more accurate analogy. > > If you want to make a point about the design templates, you should say > > that 8cap vampires shouldn't have 3 points in special abilities. > > The point I want to make about design templates is that it isn't a good idea > to circumvent them by inventing a special ability, even if it is more > expensive than most other special abilities, that is essentially equivelant > to having 20+ disciplines printed on the card. You can invent ways that it > isn't like having 20+ disciplines printed on the card all you want. That > doesn't mean it isn't like having 20+ disciplines printed on the card. I don't even know that a 4-cap with no disciplines and Ian Forrestal's special would even be that broken. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

[ quoted text not captured ] Why start now? --Colin McGuigan

"Henrik Klippstr?m" <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > This is my quick rundown: > 8.) Info Highway - The comment "entirely worthless unless it comes > up in the top 9 or 10 cards" suggests the poster never thought > about using 4-5 copies. Of course I've considered that. In fact, I do it all the time with cards like The Parthenon that are worth the redundancy. Info Highway is not. > Or? Absolutely essential (with Zillahs Valley) in > decks like OBF-Parity Shift-Obedience-Ventrues. From my original post, capitalizing for emphasis: # 8) Info Highway - FOR DECKS NOT BUILT TO TAKE CONSTANT ADVANTAGE OF # A FIFTH AND SIXTH TRANSFER, > 5.) Sudden Reversal - See Delaying tactics. Twarting that Minion > Tap that enables a deck to survive you/that Fame that would kill > you is not bad. What does "Has uses against prey pool gain but > if you're not a quick bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have > or doesn't draw his pool gain cards), it's just you sacrificing > your master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table. > Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*." actually MEAN?? Just what it says: I see people Sudden Reversing a cross-table Hunting Ground all that time. Is that not "sacrificing your master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table"? I'd rather PLAY MY OWN Hunting Ground than SR someone else's. The possible exception is if my prey plays a Hunting Ground - but such situations don't seem to come up often enough to justify SR. The only major archetype (i.e. not trick/gimmick decks) I've seen that has enough CONSISTENT good use for SR is a quick-moving bleed deck because they need to stop the Minion Taps and Blood Dolls that will allow they're prey to hang on too long. > 2.) Powerbase: Montreal - It is MEANT to be used by decks that can > defend it, or for being traded between allies which can spare the > actions to get it. Why the original poster thought something else > is not known to me. I'm not sure what you mean "being traded between allies" except in the context of a deck that can defend it. Otherwise, your enemies will step in and grab just as often - making the whole thing pointless and possibly counterproductive. As for why I thought something else, because I see people throwing it into decks that can't either defend it or trade action-for- action using weenies and thus benefitting from the trade. There's certain people who seem to think that if they get some use from Powerbase: Montreal, they're unconcerned if other players get just as much use from it. If players are wiser in your part of the world, that's great. But I can only comment on what I see. > 1.) Dreams of the Spinx - Calling this a "short term high-speed > Barrens" is downright stupid. Having a 9-hand size for 3 turns is > often a matter of sweep or not for decks like S&B, It doesn't seem to have that much effect that I've ever noticed. Fred

I think it was Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com>, who once wrote: > 1.) Dreams of the Spinx - Calling this a "short term high-speed > Barrens" is downright stupid. Having a 9-hand size for 3 turns is > often a matter of sweep or not for decks like S&B, and its not bad for > any other decks either. The TWD-archive speaks its clear language on > this one. The only reason not to use at lease a couple of these in any > deck is it being unique - but so is Barrens, Elder Library and > Fragment. The TWD-archive is only clear on the popularity of Dreams, not on its actual use. It could very well be that those decks carry Dreams because everyone says they should, for example. ;) Rogar

Frederick Scott wrote: >>5.) Sudden Reversal - See Delaying tactics. Twarting that Minion > Just what it says: I see people Sudden Reversing a cross-table > Hunting Ground all that time. Is that not "sacrificing your master > phase for the benefit of the rest of the table"? I'd rather PLAY > MY OWN Hunting Ground than SR someone else's. The possible > exception is if my prey plays a Hunting Ground - but such situations > don't seem to come up often enough to justify SR. The only major > archetype (i.e. not trick/gimmick decks) I've seen that has enough > CONSISTENT good use for SR is a quick-moving bleed deck because > they need to stop the Minion Taps and Blood Dolls that will allow > they're prey to hang on too long. First of all, I don't see the cross table Sudden "just to cycle" often at all. I can remember, years ago, seeing plays like that. I think we have gotten better. Also, my playgroup and the people I play against at tournaments do a pretty good job of playing a master card a turn. A kick ass target will come along soon enough; some people view holding a card for a while as anathema, but good decks can deal with it. Next, I don't see a fast forward moving deck as benefiting from SR more than others. The fact that they generate the highest, fastest amount of pool damage means bloat will have the least impact on their strategies. The deck that creeps forward towards its first VP and then collapses the three way would benefit far more by Suddening pool gain, for example. > As for why I thought something else, because I see people throwing > it into decks that can't either defend it or trade action-for- > action using weenies and thus benefitting from the trade. There's > certain people who seem to think that if they get some use from > Powerbase: Montreal, they're unconcerned if other players get just > as much use from it. If players are wiser in your part of the > world, that's great. But I can only comment on what I see. Yeah, I'll agree that those people are being short-sighted. But it can also be used as a "flak" card.... one that's so juicy the DEM/DOM/PRE/Prince action to your dome morphs into "pretty shiny". -- David Cherryholmes

interne...@hotmail.com (Oortje4ever) wrote in message news:<6ccd3235.04081...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Sorry for spening even more ink (...whatever) on posts. I realy have to preview my posts better before posting. The typoos are nasty. Oortje www.oortje.bravehost.com

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:2o263fF...@uni-berlin.de... > First of all, I don't see the cross table Sudden "just to cycle" > often at all. I can remember, years ago, seeing plays like that. > I think we have gotten better. Also, my playgroup and the people > I play against at tournaments do a pretty good job of playing a > master card a turn. A kick ass target will come along soon > enough; some people view holding a card for a while as anathema, > but good decks can deal with it. OK, could be metagame differences again. I don't find that obvious targets come along all that often overall. And I do find my crosstable players SRing my permanents far more often than (I think) they should. > Next, I don't see a fast forward moving deck as benefiting from > SR more than others. The fact that they generate the highest, > fastest amount of pool damage means bloat will have the least > impact on their strategies. I guess I have a completely different way of seeing it. Again, this hinges on the point that if you hover _near_ an early oust, the table will turn against you trying to prevent it and your prey will turn backwards trying to survive. I usually see defense as what you usually give up to get all the offense for the quick kill. So having a prey get off even one Minion Tap could be the difference between sweep-the-table and being ousted. It's long slow decks that shouldn't bother trying to stop bloat - you're NOT going to stop all of your opponents from bloating over the course of the game. >The deck that creeps forward towards its first VP and then >collapses the three way would benefit far more by Suddening >pool gain, for example. Don't think so. Obviously, you're not going to oust anyone in "slow motion". You might chip off their pool a bit until they're within range and then suddenly tap out trying to oust. Against bloat, you wind up hoping they spend themselves within range since you're just not going to bleed them anywhere near death yourself, even with SRs. And I don't know why you'd expect to collapse the three-way after that, since all your master card power has been concentrated on the guy who's out of the game. But usually, I think of a slow deck as something that's building its own power over time. Playing one-against-three or one-against- four by cancel other peoples' masters with your masters is a losing game. Fred

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<hrOSc.164$ni.112@okepread01>... > "Henrik Klippstr?m" <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > This is my quick rundown: > > 8.) Info Highway - The comment "entirely worthless unless it comes > > up in the top 9 or 10 cards" suggests the poster never thought > > about using 4-5 copies. > > Of course I've considered that. In fact, I do it all the time with > cards like The Parthenon that are worth the redundancy. Info > Highway is not. > > > Or? Absolutely essential (with Zillahs Valley) in > > decks like OBF-Parity Shift-Obedience-Ventrues. > > From my original post, capitalizing for emphasis: > # 8) Info Highway - FOR DECKS NOT BUILT TO TAKE CONSTANT ADVANTAGE OF > # A FIFTH AND SIXTH TRANSFER, Sorry for this. But I think I see the problem: You play with people who use cards in their deck they should not be using. Playing Info Highway in a decj THAT DO NOT TAKE CONSTANT ADVANTAGE OF A FIFTH AND SIXTH TRANSFER is very stupid. I agree, the card should not be used if there is no use for it. But I don´t see it being used so, and I glance at the TWDs don´t imply so either. So I get it - it´s your enviroment. > > 5.) Sudden Reversal - See Delaying tactics. Twarting that Minion > > Tap that enables a deck to survive you/that Fame that would kill > > you is not bad. What does "Has uses against prey pool gain but > > if you're not a quick bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have > > or doesn't draw his pool gain cards), it's just you sacrificing > > your master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table. > > Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*." actually MEAN?? > > Just what it says: I see people Sudden Reversing a cross-table > Hunting Ground all that time. Is that not "sacrificing your master > phase for the benefit of the rest of the table"? I'd rather PLAY > MY OWN Hunting Ground than SR someone else's. The possible > exception is if my prey plays a Hunting Ground - but such situations > don't seem to come up often enough to justify SR. The only major > archetype (i.e. not trick/gimmick decks) I've seen that has enough > CONSISTENT good use for SR is a quick-moving bleed deck because > they need to stop the Minion Taps and Blood Dolls that will allow > they're prey to hang on too long. I recognize this remark - you seem to be playing with the same guys who "have to" PTO their grandpredators vamp "just to cycle cards" (this is one of the reasons the same people speak of PTO as broken). These are newbies or dumb people. Over here, we think much of longterm goodwill as a strategy and SELDOM do things like sudden our grandpredators HG "just to cycle cards". Again, a difference in game enviroment. > > 2.) Powerbase: Montreal - It is MEANT to be used by decks that can > > defend it, or for being traded between allies which can spare the > > actions to get it. Why the original poster thought something else > > is not known to me. > > I'm not sure what you mean "being traded between allies" except in > the context of a deck that can defend it. Otherwise, your enemies > will step in and grab just as often - making the whole thing > pointless and possibly counterproductive. I mean traded between allies as in - "hey mr crosstable, we both know you and I can fight for the Powerbase and the other decks can´t - care to spare a action each turn to share it with me?" > As for why I thought something else, because I see people throwing > it into decks that can't either defend it or trade action-for- > action using weenies and thus benefitting from the trade. There's > certain people who seem to think that if they get some use from > Powerbase: Montreal, they're unconcerned if other players get just > as much use from it. If players are wiser in your part of the > world, that's great. But I can only comment on what I see. OK, difference in enviroment again. I never see the powerbase used in a deck that can´t defend it or at lease able to deal with it in the way mentioned above. And I can´t remember seeing it "misused" in any deck on the net either, so it felt wrong for me seeing you mention it as overrated (I mean, c´mon, when you CAN defend it, the Powerbase is just about the best card to control!) > > 1.) Dreams of the Spinx - Calling this a "short term high-speed > > Barrens" is downright stupid. Having a 9-hand size for 3 turns is > > often a matter of sweep or not for decks like S&B, > > It doesn't seem to have that much effect that I've ever noticed. This is very weird. But I´m not mathematician, so I´m not the right man to explain the value of having +2 hand size for 3 turns. I just has worked out great for me and lots of other people I´ve seen. But I guess that must have been luck then.

The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<411a58d4$0$48933$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>... > Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<41123a2f$0$6968$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>... > >> Henrik Klippstr?m <as...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > All those cards are staple goods in our enviroment > >> > >> That sort of proves his point, actually. > > > > Care to explain that remark before I take it as an insult? How is the > > cards being staple cards in our enviroment = the cards are overrated? > > If a card is overrated it will obviously be used a lot, since people find > it's value to be high. > > So you'd be very likely to see a lot of overrated cards. And you claiming > you see these cards a lot, well, means they might very well be overrated > then. > > The 'sort of' points to the flaw, since it is by no means proof that all > of these cards should not be rated as high as they are rated. > But the fact that you see these cards a lot only backs up his preposition > of the cards being overrated, it does not counteract it. Hence the 'sort > of proofs his point' Still don´t get it. Isn´t it VERY MUCH more likely that a card is good than overrated if its used in many successful decks and by many top-ranking players?

"Henrik Klippstr?m" <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5a3b0aea.04081...@posting.google.com... > "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<hrOSc.164$ni.112@okepread01>... > > "Henrik Klippstr?m" <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > This is my quick rundown: > > From my original post, capitalizing for emphasis: > > # 8) Info Highway - FOR DECKS NOT BUILT TO TAKE CONSTANT > > ADVANTAGE OF # A FIFTH AND SIXTH TRANSFER, > > Sorry for this. But I think I see the problem: You play with people > who use cards in their deck they should not be using. Playing Info > Highway in a decj THAT DO NOT TAKE CONSTANT ADVANTAGE OF A FIFTH > AND SIXTH TRANSFER is very stupid. I agree, the card should not be > used if there is no use for it. But I don´t see it being used so, Wow! That's quite a difference in metagames. The number of times I see Info Highway on the board, I'd say 5 to 1 or more are people who only use it for intial transfers. I'm glad we agree that's stupid. > > > 5.) Sudden Reversal ... > > > What does "Has uses against prey pool gain but > > > if you're not a quick bleeding deck (or your prey doesn't have > > > or doesn't draw his pool gain cards), it's just you sacrificing > > > your master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table. > > > Rather use my master phase to benefit me *alone*." actually > > > MEAN?? > > > > Just what it says: I see people Sudden Reversing a cross-table > > Hunting Ground all that time. Is that not "sacrificing your > > master phase for the benefit of the rest of the table"? I'd > > rather PLAY MY OWN Hunting Ground than SR someone else's. The > > possible exception is if my prey plays a Hunting Ground - but > > such situations don't seem to come up often enough to justify > > SR. The only major archetype (i.e. not trick/gimmick decks) > > I've seen that has enough CONSISTENT good use for SR is a > > quick-moving bleed deck because they need to stop the Minion > > Taps and Blood Dolls that will allowthey're prey to hang on > > too long. > > I recognize this remark - you seem to be playing with the same guys > who "have to" PTO their grandpredators vamp "just to cycle cards" > (this is one of the reasons the same people speak of PTO as > broken). These are newbies or dumb people. Over here, we think > much of longterm goodwill as a strategy and SELDOM do things like > sudden our grandpredators HG "just to cycle cards". Again, a > difference in game enviroment. Yea, but you're not addressing the issue. The issue isn't about needing to cycle the card vs. discarding. It's about needing to do one or the other too often. If you confine your usage of SR to stopping: a) attacks directly upon your position; and b) things that help your predator and prey in the ways you don't want them to be helped (that is, I seldom worry much about my prey's stealth or my predator's blood gain), I don't wind up using SR enough to care about it as much as master cards I could use to build my own position. And remember, the weakness in sitting their SRing your prey's blood dolls is that if you succeed and oust your prey, you now face a (former grand)prey who already has his blood dolls on the board. This is my overall complaint with master-canceling masters - you're injuring one guy by canceling his master card... at the cost of not being able to play a master card. You're hurting yourself as bad as you hurt your opponent. And two or three other guys in the game may freely use THEIR corresponding master cards for their own benefit. Not a good way to spend the master card, on the whole. > > > 2.) Powerbase: Montreal - It is MEANT to be used by decks > > > that can defend it, or for being traded between allies which > > > can spare the actions to get it. Why the original poster > > > thought something else is not known to me. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean "being traded between allies" > > except in the context of a deck that can defend it. > > Otherwise, your enemies will step in and grab just as often - > > making the whole thing pointless and possibly counterproductive. > > I mean traded between allies as in - "hey mr crosstable, we both > know you and I can fight for the Powerbase and the other decks > can´t - care to spare a action each turn to share it with me?" Oh, I see. Aside from constructing your deck with weeny minions to spend cheap actions getting it back (which I understand and allowed for in the original post), you're now conjecturing that your cross-table allies happen to be weeny decks too? I suppose that could happen. Could also happen that your predator has the weeny deck and your ally is Mr. Huitzie-and-the-Beast deck (or something). Strange argument. > > I see people throwing it into decks that can't either defend > > it or trade action-for-action using weenies and thus > > benefitting from the trade. ... > OK, difference in enviroment again. I never see the powerbase > used in a deck that can´t defend it or at lease able to deal > with it in the way mentioned above. Well, this one's also not just about the bad uses of it I see. I also see it go on EBAY for far more than it seems like it ought to be worth, if only it's play value and rarity are taken into account. It's one of those strange cards that people just can't seem to get enough of for reasons I can't fathom. > (I mean, c´mon, when you CAN defend it, the Powerbase is > just about the best card to control!) I'm not sure about being the best card to _control_. (For instance, Club Zombie would be better.) But for the price, it would certainly be an excellent card to put in your deck (which I suspect is what you meant), I agree. Fred

as...@hotmail.com (Henrik Klippstr?m) wrote in message news:<5a3b0aea.04081...@posting.google.com>... > I recognize this remark - you seem to be playing with the same guys > who "have to" PTO their grandpredators vamp "just to cycle cards" > (this is one of the reasons the same people speak of PTO as broken). > These are newbies or dumb people. Over here, we think much of longterm > goodwill as a strategy and SELDOM do things like sudden our > grandpredators HG "just to cycle cards". Again, a difference in game > enviroment. [sarcasm] The bottom line: stop playing with stupid people. Play with Henrik instead. He's the best in case you did not know. *smirk* [/sarcasm] Bye, Daneel

dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04081...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, I am the greatest! Too bad my ranking doesn´t show that, I wonder what could be wrong...

as...@hotmail.com (Henrik Klippstr?m) wrote in message news:<5a3b0aea.0408...@posting.google.com>... > Yeah, I am the greatest! Too bad my ranking doesn´t show that, I > wonder what could be wrong... Obviously the rating system is flawed. We need a new one... Bye, Daneel