Hi Folks and Methusalahs!
Another playsession passed, some more questions were found.
1. Some questions about Succubus Club:
The card text is:
"Master: unique location Methuselahs can give you pool, and you can give
them pool. You can trade cards from your hand or in play. These trades
can only happen during your untap phase and cannot result in any
Methuselah having less than his or her hand size. Any additional terms
can be established, but none are enfoced by the rules."
The key word is DURING which also appears in the card text of most
Powerbases and all Hunting Grounds.
Now: What happens if I borrow a Hunting Ground from an allied
Methusalah?
and: What happens if I borrow a Powerbase from an allied Methusalah?
May I:
1st step: Transfer 'ground / 'base from allied Methusalah to me
2nd step: 'ground / 'base triggers DURING my untap phase
3rd step: Transfer back to original owner
4th step: TRANSFER BACK TO ME
5th step: 'ground / 'base triggers AGAIN
6th step: Transfer back to original owner
and so on.
The cards don't specify how often they can be used... Please help. We
feel VERY uncomfortable this mere possibility! Two allied methusalahs
may crush the game balance within an instant!
2. Malkavian Prank
"Master. Each Methuselah holds between 1 and 4 pool in his or her hand.
Guess the amount of pool in each Methuselah's hand. Each time you guess
correctly, you gain that pool. If you guess incorrectly, that Methuselah
gains that much pool from the blood bank."
Each Methusalah! The Malk itself is also a Methusalah!!! The Malk would
naturally choose 4 pool. Whichever decision he will make, he will get 4
pool!!!
And: he gets them not only without any risk besides Sudden Reversal but
also has the opportunity to gain even more pool!
The only drawback of this card would be that the Malk will (perhaps)
strengthen the other Methusalahs as well (kind of an Autarkis
Percecution as Master Card)
Is this the way the card has to be understood?
--
Michael Beer, Dortmund, Germany, ICQ 1175389
--------------------------------------------
Life is founded on Chaos.
So if you find your living room became disordered:
Don't panic! It's natural... :)
--
Michael Beer, Dortmund, Germany, ICQ 1175389
--------------------------------------------
Life is founded on Chaos.
So if you find your living room became disordered:
Don't panic! It's natural... :)
Michael Beer wrote:
> 1. Some questions about Succubus Club:
>
> The card text is:
>
> "Master: unique location Methuselahs can give you pool, and you can give
> them pool. You can trade cards from your hand or in play. These trades
> can only happen during your untap phase and cannot result in any
> Methuselah having less than his or her hand size. Any additional terms
> can be established, but none are enfoced by the rules."
>
> The key word is DURING which also appears in the card text of most
> Powerbases and all Hunting Grounds.
>
> Now: What happens if I borrow a Hunting Ground from an allied
> Methusalah?
> and: What happens if I borrow a Powerbase from an allied Methusalah?
>
> May I:
>
> 1st step: Transfer 'ground / 'base from allied Methusalah to me
> 2nd step: 'ground / 'base triggers DURING my untap phase
> 3rd step: Transfer back to original owner
>
> 4th step: TRANSFER BACK TO ME
> 5th step: 'ground / 'base triggers AGAIN
> 6th step: Transfer back to original owner
>
> and so on.
The 5th step is illegal. The 'base and/or 'ground can only be used
to perform their functions once per untap phase.
And, it is very likely that steps 3-6 are illegal.
Earlier I said that multiple trades during the same untap phase
were legal. That is probably not correct, especially considering the
text on the other "during untap" masters.
The Rules Team is currently considering that issue.
> The cards don't specify how often they can be used... Please help. We
> feel VERY uncomfortable this mere possibility! Two allied methusalahs
> may crush the game balance within an instant!
>
> 2. Malkavian Prank
>
> "Master. Each Methuselah holds between 1 and 4 pool in his or her hand.
> Guess the amount of pool in each Methuselah's hand. Each time you guess
> correctly, you gain that pool. If you guess incorrectly, that Methuselah
> gains that much pool from the blood bank."
>
> Each Methusalah! The Malk itself is also a Methusalah!!! The Malk would
> naturally choose 4 pool. Whichever decision he will make, he will get 4
> pool!!!
>
> And: he gets them not only without any risk besides Sudden Reversal but
> also has the opportunity to gain even more pool!
>
> The only drawback of this card would be that the Malk will (perhaps)
> strengthen the other Methusalahs as well (kind of an Autarkis
> Percecution as Master Card)
>
> Is this the way the card has to be understood?
No. The Methuselah playing the card is excluded. Card text has been
errataed to read "Each other Methuselah holds..."
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
Nothing better to do this afternoon so let's take a crack at this
Michael Beer wrote:
>
> 1. Some questions about Succubus Club:
>> "Master: unique location Methuselahs can give you pool, and you can give
> them pool. You can trade cards from your hand or in play. These trades
> can only happen during your untap phase and cannot result in any
> Methuselah having less than his or her hand size. Any additional terms
> can be established, but none are enfoced by the rules."
>> May I:
>
> 1st step: Transfer 'ground / 'base from allied Methusalah to me
> 2nd step: 'ground / 'base triggers DURING my untap phase
> 3rd step: Transfer back to original owner
I believe everything up to this point is OK. Remember a hunting ground
says..
"During your untap phase, a ready vampire you control gains 1 blood
from the blood bank. A vampire can only gain 1 blood from Hunting Ground
cards each turn."
So, 1) Each hunting ground can only give out 1 blood, even though the
controller changes the card still remembers this fact, and 2) (even if
you could) Any vamp can only gain 1 blood max from all hunting grounds
each turn, and lastly 3) Would you really trust someone else to give him
your hunting ground? (Perhaps I play with too many backstabbers!) :)
>
> 4th step: TRANSFER BACK TO ME
> 5th step: 'ground / 'base triggers AGAIN
> 6th step: Transfer back to original owner
You could do all but step 5, which if two Meth's were idoit's, could do
this forever completely stalling the game.
>
> 2. Malkavian Prank
>
> "Master. Each Methuselah holds between 1 and 4 pool in his or her hand.
> Guess the amount of pool in each Methuselah's hand. Each time you guess
> correctly, you gain that pool. If you guess incorrectly, that Methuselah
> gains that much pool from the blood bank."
>
Poorly worded, but I think the standard that everyone plays with is..
"Master. Each Methuselah [but you] holds between..."
Frankly, I think the wording on the Jyhad version is MUCH better...
"All other Methuselahs hold between 1 and 4 blood in their hands. You
guess how much is in each Methuselah's hand individually. For each on
you guess correctly, yuo gain that much pool from his or her blood pool.
If you guess incorrectly, he or she gains that much pool from the blood
bank."
Wait a sec. I assume the V:TES version also gains the pool from the
other Meth's from thier pool? At least I hope so or this is a very silly
card.
I am sure that LSJ will find some sort of offical word on everything
here.
Later,
Rob.
Michael Beer wrote:
>
> Hi Folks and Methusalahs!
>
> Another playsession passed, some more questions were found.
>> 1. Some questions about Succubus Club:
A very nasty card, as was shown in the most recent Los Angeles
tournament.
>
> The card text is:>
> "Master: unique location Methuselahs can give you pool, and you can give
> them pool. You can trade cards from your hand or in play. These trades
> can only happen during your untap phase and cannot result in any
> Methuselah having less than his or her hand size. Any additional terms
> can be established, but none are enfoced by the rules."
>> The key word is DURING which also appears in the card text of most
> Powerbases and all Hunting Grounds.
>
> Now: What happens if I borrow a Hunting Ground from an allied
> Methusalah?
> and: What happens if I borrow a Powerbase from an allied Methusalah?
>
> May I:> [SNIP circular and infinite loop possibilities with Succ Club]>
> The cards don't specify how often they can be used... Please help. We
> feel VERY uncomfortable this mere possibility! Two allied methusalahs
> may crush the game balance within an instant!
I think the Succ Club crushes game balance even when the two meths are
not allied. I am really surprised it has taken this long for the card to
be abused (and for discussion of the potential abuses to make it onto
this list).
>
> 2. Malkavian Prank
>
> "Master. Each Methuselah holds between 1 and 4 pool in his or her hand.
> Guess the amount of pool in each Methuselah's hand. Each time you guess
> correctly, you gain that pool. If you guess incorrectly, that Methuselah
> gains that much pool from the blood bank.">> Each Methusalah! The Malk itself is also a Methusalah!!! The Malk would
> naturally choose 4 pool. Whichever decision he will make, he will get 4
> pool!!!
Well, but she would only get the four pool "risked" in the first place.
There would be no net gain of pool. Of course, technically, if she
guesses incorrectly, then she gets that amount of pool from the blood
bank, but since she knows how much is in her hand, this goes against the
definition of the word "guess". Unless she had a wooden hand and did not
look to see how many someone else put in her hand, or something like
that...
> And: he gets them not only without any risk besides Sudden Reversal but
> also has the opportunity to gain even more pool!
>
> The only drawback of this card would be that the Malk will (perhaps)
> strengthen the other Methusalahs as well (kind of an Autarkis
> Percecution as Master Card)
>
> Is this the way the card has to be understood?
>
I don't believe so.
--
Chris Shorb
ino...@ix.netcom.com
"How can I describe it?...It's a nightmare land, a place
of death, horrifying in its desolation...Not a tree, not a
flower, not a blade of grass..."
- Herge
LSJ (VtES Rep) (vte...@regency.wizards.com) wrote:
: Michael Beer wrote:
: >
: > 2. Malkavian Prank
: >
: > Each Methusalah! The Malk itself is also a Methusalah!!! The Malk would: > naturally choose 4 pool. Whichever decision he will make, he will get 4
: > pool!!!: No. The Methuselah playing the card is excluded. Card text has been: errataed to read "Each other Methuselah holds..."
Does it really matter? If the Malk chooses 4 pool, holds out
four pool, therefore the only guess he can make is 4 pool,
since he knows the answer, and he gains 4 pool...from himself,
for a net gain of zero pool.
-Dave Green
Why search pages of errata when its there on the card?
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yes it matters. You are not mysteriously restricted to making
a correct guess just because you know the answer.
If you guess correctly then you (the Meth who held out four) lose
four and you (the guessor) gain four. Net gain: zero. (as you say)
But if you "guess" incorrectly, then you (the Meth who held out four)
gain four, while you (the guessor) are not penalized for guessing
incorrectly. Net gain: four.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>Does it really matter? If the Malk chooses 4 pool, holds out
>four pool, therefore the only guess he can make is 4 pool,
This reasoning is fallacious. Knowing the answer to a question doesn't
preclude you giving the wrong answer. The Malk can choose whatever he
wants, thus instead he gains 4 pool from the blood bank.
---
Liam Burke
"The Democrats can't pull it together if we rip them apart."
-overheard