[LSJ] out of play and Kerrie

Hi ! just a simple question : Karsh opposes the kikiyaon in combat. The kikiyaon manoeuvers to long and uses his kerry to strike at strength damage. The kerrie is now "out of play". Karsh plays body of sun, and then amaranth to diablerize the kikiyaon. i assume that karsh cannot retrieve the kerrie. i also assume that the kerrie, despite being out of play, was still on the kikiyaon so it goes to the ash heap when the kikiyaon is burned. Am i right or is there something i didn't compute ? thank you.

Reyda ! <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote: >Karsh opposes the kikiyaon in combat. >The kikiyaon manoeuvers to long and uses his kerry to strike at >strength damage. The kerrie is now "out of play". Not yet. It goes out of play after strike resolution. >Karsh plays body of >sun, and then amaranth to diablerize the kikiyaon. > >i assume that karsh cannot retrieve the kerrie. The question is when does Amaranth get played. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline Damage resolution is part of strike resolution (6.3.2.2). Moving a vampire to torpor is part of damage resolution (7.2). The vampire "should go to torpor" during damage resolution. So Amaranth appears to be being played during damage resolution. Strike resolution hasn't yet finished, so Kerrie is in play. >i also assume that the kerrie, despite being out of play, was still on >the kikiyaon so it goes to the ash heap when the kikiyaon is burned. >Am i right or is there something i didn't compute ? If there was an out-of-play Kerrie on the burning vampire (say, this is a second round or an additional strike and the Kerrie went out of play already), the Kerrie would go to the ash heap when the minion it was on burned. This follows the parallel for other out of play cards on a burned minion, such as a contested Fame. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On 9 avr, 20:36, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Reyda ! <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote: > >Karsh opposes the kikiyaon in combat. > >The kikiyaon manoeuvers to long and uses his kerry to strike at > >strength damage. The kerrie is now "out of play". > > Not yet. It goes out of play after strike resolution. > > >Karsh plays body of > >sun, and then amaranth to diablerize the kikiyaon. > > >i assume that karsh cannot retrieve the kerrie. > > The question is when does Amaranth get played. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline > > Damage resolution is part of strike resolution (6.3.2.2). Moving a > vampire to torpor is part of damage resolution (7.2). The vampire > "should go to torpor" during damage resolution. So Amaranth appears to > be being played during damage resolution. > > Strike resolution hasn't yet finished, so Kerrie is in play. i simply assumed that, if the damage is applied, the strikes were resolved. Ok, now i assume this ruling handles this, so ok, the kerrie would still be face up. so if the kikiyaon went to torpor due to another effect (say, an additional ranged strike from karsh), then the kerrie would be out of reach. thank you for the quick input.

James Coupe wrote: > Reyda ! <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Karsh opposes the kikiyaon in combat. >> The kikiyaon manoeuvers to long and uses his kerry to strike at >> strength damage. The kerrie is now "out of play". > > Not yet. It goes out of play after strike resolution. Correct. >> Karsh plays body of >> sun, and then amaranth to diablerize the kikiyaon. >> >> i assume that karsh cannot retrieve the kerrie. > > The question is when does Amaranth get played. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline > > Damage resolution is part of strike resolution (6.3.2.2). Moving a > vampire to torpor is part of damage resolution (7.2). The vampire > "should go to torpor" during damage resolution. So Amaranth appears to > be being played during damage resolution. > > Strike resolution hasn't yet finished, so Kerrie is in play. Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go to torpor. After strike resolution, Amaranth can be played, but the Kerrie is out of play. >> i also assume that the kerrie, despite being out of play, was still on >> the kikiyaon so it goes to the ash heap when the kikiyaon is burned. >> Am i right or is there something i didn't compute ? > > If there was an out-of-play Kerrie on the burning vampire (say, this is > a second round or an additional strike and the Kerrie went out of play > already), the Kerrie would go to the ash heap when the minion it was on > burned. This follows the parallel for other out of play cards on a > burned minion, such as a contested Fame. Correct.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >James Coupe wrote: >> The question is when does Amaranth get played. >> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline >> Damage resolution is part of strike resolution (6.3.2.2). Moving a >> vampire to torpor is part of damage resolution (7.2). The vampire >> "should go to torpor" during damage resolution. So Amaranth appears to >> be being played during damage resolution. >> Strike resolution hasn't yet finished, so Kerrie is in play. > >Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go to torpor. The V:TES Complete Rules Reference says otherwise. Damage resolution is part of strike resolution: - VI.C.2.c Moving vampires to torpor is part of damage resolution: - VII.B.2 How is VII.B.2 happening after strike resolution when it occurs as part of strike resolution? Is the outline wrong? [ quoted text not captured ]

On 11 avr, 16:27, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go to torpor. > > The V:TES Complete Rules Reference says otherwise. Damage resolution > is part of strike resolution: > > - VI.C.2.c > > Moving vampires to torpor is part of damage resolution: > > - VII.B.2 > > How is VII.B.2 happening after strike resolution when it occurs as part > of strike resolution? > > Is the outline wrong? i would like to know, yes :)

[ quoted text not captured ] > i would like to know, yes :)- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - LSJ: I'm very keen to know as I have a deck that features Kerries... *Waits to hear what ways my !Salubri "Light Sabre" deck could be screwed... .oO[still nothing as enjoyable as striking for 7 undodgeable agg for no pool cost (thankyou Powerbase:Tshwane) and no blood cost (thankyou Path of Retribution) and still probably prevent 4 damage (thankyou Valeren combat cards...)] For those who don't know... the text of Kerrie is: Kerrie Type: Equipment Requires: laibon Cost: 1 pool Melee weapon. Requires a Laibon. Strength+1 damage each strike. Alternatively, inflict strength ranged damage as a strike and, after strike resolution, turn this weapon face down (out of play) until the end of the action.

> For those who don't know... the text of Kerrie is: > > Kerrie > Type: Equipment > Requires: laibon > Cost: 1 pool > Melee weapon. Requires a Laibon. > Strength+1 damage each strike. Alternatively, inflict strength ranged > damage as a strike and, after strike resolution, turn this weapon face > down (out of play) until the end of the action. OT, but anyway. Kerrie combines with Strike at the true flesh, even when striking at long, correct?

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes, but more importantly, it combines with Baal's Blood Talons, in an awesome non-burning way.

[ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, but Qui doesn't help with my Val deck... and my agg doesn't burn it either!

[ quoted text not captured ] I need to make Izhim Laibon then...

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Yeah, but Qui doesn't help with my Val deck... and my agg doesn't burn > it either! That's where you've gone terribly wrong. QUI/VAL is one of the strongest combos out there. Ask anybody. Matt Morgan

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>James Coupe wrote: >>> The question is when does Amaranth get played. >>> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline >>> Damage resolution is part of strike resolution (6.3.2.2). Moving a >>> vampire to torpor is part of damage resolution (7.2). The vampire >>> "should go to torpor" during damage resolution. So Amaranth appears to >>> be being played during damage resolution. >>> Strike resolution hasn't yet finished, so Kerrie is in play. >> >>Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go >>to torpor. > >The V:TES Complete Rules Reference says otherwise. Damage resolution >is part of strike resolution: > >- VI.C.2.c > >Moving vampires to torpor is part of damage resolution: > >- VII.B.2 > > >How is VII.B.2 happening after strike resolution when it occurs as part >of strike resolution? > >Is the outline wrong? Any chance of a clarification here? Your statement here contradicts the apparent description of the events in the Complete Rules Reference. Which is right? And can the Complete Rules Reference be updated if it's [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>> James Coupe wrote: >>>> The question is when does Amaranth get played. >>>> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline >>>> Damage resolution is part of strike resolution (6.3.2.2). Moving a >>>> vampire to torpor is part of damage resolution (7.2). The vampire >>>> "should go to torpor" during damage resolution. So Amaranth appears to >>>> be being played during damage resolution. >>>> Strike resolution hasn't yet finished, so Kerrie is in play. >>> Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go >>> to torpor. >> The V:TES Complete Rules Reference says otherwise. Damage resolution >> is part of strike resolution: >> >> - VI.C.2.c >> >> Moving vampires to torpor is part of damage resolution: >> >> - VII.B.2 >> >> >> How is VII.B.2 happening after strike resolution when it occurs as part >> of strike resolution? >> >> Is the outline wrong? > > Any chance of a clarification here? Your statement here contradicts > the apparent description of the events in the Complete Rules Reference. The clarification is given above. Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go to torpor. > Which is right? And can the Complete Rules Reference be updated if it's > wrong? Of course.

On Apr 19, 10:38 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > James Coupe wrote: > > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] > Of course.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - So, to double check... Since the Kerrie leaves play after strike resolution AND vampires go to torpor after strike resolution... Which of these is true: #1 The controller of the acting minion can play Amaranth before the Kerrie leaves play. #2 The controller of the Kerrie must turn it face down and out of play before any discretionary actions are taken (akin to the Mandatory Actions rule) #3 Something else entirely?

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > So, to double check... > Since the Kerrie leaves play after strike resolution AND vampires go > to torpor after strike resolution... > Which of these is true: > #1 The controller of the acting minion can play Amaranth before the > Kerrie leaves play. > #2 The controller of the Kerrie must turn it face down and out of play > before any discretionary actions are taken (akin to the Mandatory > Actions rule) > #3 Something else entirely? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5d3b1e712c1246d5

[ quoted text not captured ] > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5d3b... LSJ: The reason for the question is that both effects are "after strike resolution". Amaranth because the vampire needs to be "going to torpor" (which happens during damage resolution) Kerrie because "and, after strike resolution, turn this weapon face down (out of play) until the end of the action." So, does the Kerrie take a precendence over the Amaranth because it is "Mandatory" (like Mandatory actions during the minion phase)? [ quoted text not captured ]

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > On Apr 20, 9:37 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Juggernaut1981 wrote: >>> So, to double check... >>> Since the Kerrie leaves play after strike resolution AND vampires go >>> to torpor after strike resolution... >>> Which of these is true: >>> #1 The controller of the acting minion can play Amaranth before the >>> Kerrie leaves play. >>> #2 The controller of the Kerrie must turn it face down and out of play >>> before any discretionary actions are taken (akin to the Mandatory >>> Actions rule) >>> #3 Something else entirely? >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5d3b... > > LSJ: The reason for the question is that both effects are "after > strike resolution". ? From that link: Strike resolution finishes before you start looking for vampire to go to torpor. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] > After strike resolution, Amaranth can be played, but the Kerrie is out of play.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - If there were other "after strike resolution" effects (other than "checking for going to torpor"), how do you sequence them?

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > If there were other "after strike resolution" effects (other than > "checking for going to torpor"), how do you sequence them? If there are effects that occur "at the same time" you use the sequencing rules.

[ quoted text not captured ] this is quite clear and simple :) thank you !