Question about Obedience

Obedience card text: Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire. Untap the acting vampire. The acting vampire is blocked, and he or she cannot attempt the same action again this turn. (S) As above, but do not untap the acting vampire. My question is on the definition of reacting vampire and the whole thing with "is about to enter combat". Here's the situation: Vamp A bum's rushes Vamp B Vamp B blocks Vamp A and plays Obedience. In this case combat ends before it even begins (as per card text). But what happens if Vamp B is unable or unwilling to block? Situation 2: Vamp A bum's rushes Vamp B Vamp B declares a block. Vamp A plays stealth. Vamp B cannot block. Combat begins? or can Vamp B play Obedience? Is Obedience like Fast Reactions, that is the vampire must block in order to use the card? Is a vampire that is involved in a combat and is not the acting minion, automatically considered as the reacting minion? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Andrei Rublev. --- The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Obedience card text: > > Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an > acting younger vampire. Untap the acting vampire. The acting vampire is > blocked, and he or she cannot attempt the same action again this turn. > (S) As above, but do not untap the acting vampire. Card text (from the online reference): Obedience Cardtype: Reaction Discipline: Dominate Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire. This vampire [is not tapped] <and combat does not occur>; untap the acting vampire. The acting vampire is blocked, and he or she cannot attempt the same action this turn. (S) As above, but do not untap the acting vampire. > My question is on the definition of reacting vampire and the whole > thing with "is about to enter combat". Here's the situation: > > Vamp A bum's rushes Vamp B > Vamp B blocks Vamp A and plays Obedience. > > In this case combat ends before it even begins (as per card text). But > what happens if Vamp B is unable or unwilling to block? He can still play Obedience to end combat. Obedience doesn't make any requirements as to blocking first. B must be untapped to play reaction cards, though. > Situation 2: > Vamp A bum's rushes Vamp B > Vamp B declares a block. > Vamp A plays stealth. > Vamp B cannot block. Combat begins? or can Vamp B play Obedience? Combat would begin, and therefore B can play Obedience (if he's untapped). > Is Obedience like Fast Reactions, that is the vampire must block in > order to use the card? No. > Is a vampire that is involved in a combat and is > not the acting minion, automatically considered as the reacting minion? Typically, but that doesn't have any bearing on Obedience (which makes no reference to the blocking minion or the reacting minion) nor on Fast Reaction (which references the "blocking" minion explicitly). Blocking minions are typically reacting minions, but not all reacting minions are blocking minion. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In article <39DC6D33...@white-wolf.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] After posting this question, I went to see the official rulings on this card (what I should have done before ;). I have to say that what you say here somewhat contradicts the rulings: Obedience - Reaction (dom) Is governed by the "same action" rulings. [RTR 19950509] Will not untap an acting vampire who had been tapped when he began the action. [RTR 19960708] Cannot be used to avoid combat with a non-acting minion (Hidden Lurker, for example). [LSJ 19970326] Obedience can be played (by an untapped older vampire) to avoid the new combat started by superior Psyche!. [LSJ 19991025] Obedience is played after a vampire successfully blocks but before the blocker is tapped and combat begins. It cancels combat and (in inferior) untaps the acting minion (while the blocker does not tap). [RTR 19991206] The last ruling [rtr 19991206] suggests that you have to block in order to play Obedience and not just be involved in combat. So what's the final take on this question? Andrei Rublev [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Card text (from the online reference): > Obedience > Cardtype: Reaction > Discipline: Dominate > Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an > acting younger vampire. This vampire [is not tapped] <and combat does not > occur>; untap the acting vampire. The acting vampire is blocked, and he or > she cannot attempt the same action this turn. (S) As above, but do not untap > the acting vampire. > > > Is a vampire that is involved in a combat and is > > not the acting minion, automatically considered as the reacting minion? > > Typically, but that doesn't have any bearing on Obedience (which > makes no reference to the blocking minion or the reacting minion) Sorry, spoke without thinking... "Reacting minon" refers to a minion playing a reaction card. So it applies to the Obedience-playing minion, even if the minion is not blocking. > Blocking minions are typically reacting minions, but not all reacting > minions are blocking minion. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39DC7603...@white-wolf.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Alright, but this still doesn't address my question as to the following ruling on obedience: Obedience is played after a vampire successfully blocks but before the blocker is tapped and combat begins. It cancels combat and (in inferior) untaps the acting minion (while the blocker does not tap). [RTR 19991206] So what is the final take on Obedience? Andrei Rublev --- The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convinving the world he didn't exist. [ quoted text not captured ]

andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > Vamp A bum's rushes Vamp B > > > what happens if Vamp B is unable or unwilling to block? > > He can still play Obedience to end combat. Obedience doesn't make any > > requirements as to blocking first. B must be untapped to play reaction > > cards, though. > > > Is Obedience like Fast Reactions, that is the vampire must block in > > > order to use the card? > > No. > After posting this question, I went to see the official rulings on this > card (what I should have done before ;). > I have to say that what you say here somewhat contradicts the rulings: > [... snip ...] > Obedience is played after a vampire successfully blocks but before the > blocker is tapped and combat begins. It cancels combat and (in > inferior) untaps the acting minion (while the blocker does not tap). > [RTR 19991206] > The last ruling [rtr 19991206] suggests that you have to block in order > to play Obedience and not just be involved in combat. No. The last ruling indicates that when played by a blocking vampire, it is played after the block is successful but before the successful block taps the blocker (this ruling is necessary since only untapped minions can play reaction cards). When played by a non-blocking vampire (as in the Bum's Rush example), it is merely played before combat begins, per card text. This case is unaffected by the ruling on how to play it when blocking. See the cited RTR for more information about the circumstances involved in the ruling in question. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39DC8733...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > The last ruling [rtr 19991206] suggests that you have to block in order > > to play Obedience and not just be involved in combat. > > No. The last ruling indicates that when played by a blocking vampire, it > is played after the block is successful but before the successful block > taps the blocker (this ruling is necessary since only untapped minions > can play reaction cards). > > When played by a non-blocking vampire (as in the Bum's Rush example), > it is merely played before combat begins, per card text. This case is > unaffected by the ruling on how to play it when blocking. > > See the cited RTR for more information about the circumstances involved > in the ruling in question. > > -- > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Thanks for the clarification, although I am beginning to find this card somewhat overpowered, but that's just an opinion from someone who likes to rush vampires instead of going for sneak and bleed... Not quite sure how I am going to work around it, especially since Psyche is not an option (I like to play Nosferatu, so celerity is not my forte). But this has nothing to do with the question. I guess I'll see what in store for my deck when the next tournament come through. Thanks again for the clarification. Andrei Rublev [ quoted text not captured ]

andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > Alright, but this still doesn't address my question as to the following > ruling on obedience: > > Obedience is played after a vampire successfully blocks but before the > blocker is tapped and combat begins. It cancels combat and (in > inferior) untaps the acting minion (while the blocker does not tap). > [RTR 19991206] > > So what is the final take on Obedience? As given. See my other post responding to the question on the ruling the first time it was posted. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > The last ruling [rtr 19991206] suggests that you have to block in > >order to play Obedience and not just be involved in combat. > > No. The last ruling indicates that when played by a blocking vampire, > it is played after the block is successful but before the successful > block taps the blocker (this ruling is necessary since only untapped > minions > can play reaction cards). > > When played by a non-blocking vampire (as in the Bum's Rush example), > it is merely played before combat begins, per card text. This case is > unaffected by the ruling on how to play it when blocking. > > See the cited RTR for more information about the circumstances > involved in the ruling in question. Where we can find that cited RTR ? Deja dont let us see the post that old for now. Did we can find it elsewhere ? Because the fact that Obedience can be played without blocking seem to overpower that card. But i dont know the circumstances involved in the ruling in question... -- Khaleph Alendis, High Priest of Maizerets VEKN Setite Prince of Beauport http://www.oricom.ca/melkor/khaleph/ [ quoted text not captured ]

andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > Thanks for the clarification, although I am beginning to find this card > somewhat overpowered, but that's just an opinion from someone who likes > to rush vampires instead of going for sneak and bleed... Not quite sure > how I am going to work around it, especially since Psyche is not an > option (I like to play Nosferatu, so celerity is not my forte). But > this has nothing to do with the question. I guess I'll see what in > store for my deck when the next tournament come through. Well, there are a few options to get around them: 1) rush 'em with older vampires 2) overwhelm 'em with a lot of rushes from weenie vampires 3) rush 'em when they are tapped Of course, if your competitors are always playing large vampires with DOM and packing their decks full of Obediences and wakes, then the time has come to switch strategies and just bleed them out of the game. They shouldn't put up too much resistance, given their deck composition. [ quoted text not captured ]

Khaleph Alendis wrote: > > See the cited RTR for more information about the circumstances > > involved in the ruling in question. > > Where we can find that cited RTR ? Deja dont let us see the post that > old for now. Did we can find it elsewhere ? Jeff's Web Page has the full text of all of the RTRs since July 1998: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/ > Because the fact that Obedience can be played without blocking seem to > overpower that card. It doesn't seem to be overpowered, based on the tournaments I've seen and/or heard reports from. [ quoted text not captured ]

New question, same card, same clarifications: If I rush an untapped older vamp, and they play Obedience, is the action officially blocked (for the Millicent Smith effect, for example)? Obedience card text: Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire. Untap the acting vampire. The acting vampire is blocked, and he or she cannot attempt the same action again this turn. (S) As above, but do not untap the acting vampire. Mike Ooi Insane Prince of Houston, TX Home of the functionally-named Houston Texans NFL Team

Mike Ooi wrote: > > New question, same card, same clarifications: > > If I rush an untapped older vamp, and they play Obedience, is the action > officially blocked (for the Millicent Smith effect, for example)? > > Obedience card text: > Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an > acting younger vampire. Untap the acting vampire. The acting vampire is > blocked, and he or she cannot attempt the same action again this turn. > (S) As above, but do not untap the acting vampire. Yes. Obedience (cited): "The acting vampire is blocked" Millicent: "if [...] acting vampire's actions blocked" [ quoted text not captured ]