[LSJ] Illusions of the Kindred vs. Psyche (not the usual question)

The RTR state: "Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after combat (see Majesty ruling above)." So what happens when: - Gabrin attacks Anson - Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat and starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor). - Dónal O'Connor strikes for 1. - Anson plays Majesty to end combat. - Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat. Does the "Remove the vampire from the game at the end of combat" effect of the Illusions of the Kindred fizzle because of the superior Psyche, and Dónal O'Connor would permanently stay in play after that combat? Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he is no longer in play because of IotK? Dónal should be removed from the game "at the end of combat", but Psyche must be played "at the end of combat" too, but still during combat, so which card takes precedence? Greetings, Damnans

Damnans expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] What a BRILLIANT idea! Clearly Donal should burn on thematic grounds (he's only an illusion after all) and this would be a very powerful effect so for balance reasons it should be disallowed too. OTOH the rules seem to indicate that Donal survives -you can order the effect -Psyche! is a combat card so although played at the end of combat is not actually after the end of it and Gabrin was acting in your example. It would be very hard to pull off: perhaps use EoH instead of Gabrin which gives us another question: Suppose Donal with EoH plays Illusions otK and pulls out Donal2 (2nd copy) which doesn't contest by IotK's card text. If Donal2 survives the combat by Psyche!, does he then contest? -I can't see any reason why the card text would stop applying.. I hope LSJ says it's ok until someone proves it's broken ;) Meanwhile let's design the St.Patrick's Day massacre deck ;D Come to think of it you probably want someone with Tha to Magic the Eye out. (you can shove in a few guns or something to go with the rest of the MotS-es) -shame there isn't anyone with CEL/chi/tha.. how about Menele? (nice bloat there) I'll have a go later if no one else has :-)

Damnans wrote: > - Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat and > starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor). > - Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat. > Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he is no > longer in play because of IotK? Correct, http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3F815897...@white-wolf.com... > Damnans wrote: > > - Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat and > > starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor). > > - Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat. > > > Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he is no > > longer in play because of IotK? > > Correct, > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com > ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking instead. -- Oscar Garza Prince of College Station, Tx The Crazy Aggie

[ quoted text not captured ] OK. Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no reason to remove Korah from the game (yet). [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje news:3F82E9C8...@white-wolf.com... > Oscar Garza wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > news:3F815897...@white-wolf.com... > > > >>Damnans wrote: > >> > >>>- Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat > >> > > and > > > >>> starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor). > >>>- Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat. > >> > >>>Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he > >> > > is no > > > >>>longer in play because of IotK? > >> > >>Correct, > >>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com > >> > > > > > > ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking instead. > > OK. > Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no > reason to remove Korah from the game (yet). > But will do so after the following up combat, right? [ quoted text not captured ]

It makes no sense to me: If the combat is ended by the time he would play Psyche!, then why didn't he just play Psyche! right during it? If not,Psyche! should'n be a combat card, as the combat has ALREADY ENDED by the time the minion plays it!! Please come up with a very good explan ation, or it will remain to me "it will be like that because LSJ said so". Tks Dragos LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F815897...@white-wolf.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

Smiling Tom wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje > news:3F82E9C8...@white-wolf.com... > >>Oscar Garza wrote: >> >>>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>>news:3F815897...@white-wolf.com... >>> >>> >>>>Damnans wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>- Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat >>>> >>>and >>> >>> >>>>> starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor). >>>>>- Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat. >>>> >>>>>Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he >>>> >>>is no >>> >>> >>>>>longer in play because of IotK? >>>> >>>>Correct, >>>>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com >>>> >>> >>> >>>ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking >> > instead. > >>OK. >>Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no >>reason to remove Korah from the game (yet). >> > But will do so after the following up combat, right? There is no following up combat. There is the current combat. At the end of the current combat. the Illusionary vampire is removed from the game, by card text. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: [...] > >>>ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking > >> > > instead. > > > >>OK. > >>Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no > >>reason to remove Korah from the game (yet). > >> > > But will do so after the following up combat, right? > > There is no following up combat. There is the current combat. > At the end of the current combat. the Illusionary vampire is removed > from the game, by card text. But the RTR read: "Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after combat (see Majesty ruling above)." Illusions of the Kindred is an effect that does something else after combat. Will that "after combat" effect fizzel if that combat does not end via Telepathic Tracking)? Greetings, Damnans

Damnans expounded: > > >>OK. > > >>Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no > > >>reason to remove Korah from the game (yet). > > >> > > > But will do so after the following up combat, right? > > > > There is no following up combat. There is the current combat. > > At the end of the current combat. the Illusionary vampire is removed > > from the game, by card text. > > But the RTR read: > > "Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the > single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a > new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or > Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to > end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after > combat (see Majesty ruling above)." > > Illusions of the Kindred is an effect that does something else after combat. > > Will that "after combat" effect fizzel if that combat does not end via > Telepathic Tracking)? Although Illusions does end combat it is a different combat that is ended -you can TT/Psyche! to stop the illusion taking effect but once it is in play it stays until then end of that combat whenever that may be - it (IotK) does not cause the end to that (the second) combat and so isn't caused to fail by that combat not ending.

Damnans wrote: > > LSJ wrote: [If a vampire retrieved by Illusions of the Kindred is in combat and combat is extended by superior Telepathic Tracking, the retrieved vampire is still not burnt until combat ends.] > > But the RTR read: > > "Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the > single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a > new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or > Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to > end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after > combat (see Majesty ruling above)." > > Illusions of the Kindred is an effect that does something else after combat. > > Will that "after combat" effect fizzel if that combat does not end via > Telepathic Tracking)? Illusions of the Kindred doesn't remove the retrieved vampire from play as part of its resolution. The resolution of IotK is: end combat; retrieve vampire; initiate combat. If Telepathic Tracking interrupts that resolution (by continuing the initial combat, since that is the only point in that resolution that TT can be played), then the rest of the effect is lost. See the subsequent paragraph of that RTR: If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g., Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting combat/etc.). Illusions of the Kindred sets up a "remove the retrieved vampire from the game" effect to be resolved later, namely when the combat initiated by the resolution of IotK ends. [ quoted text not captured ]

Timlagor wrote: > Although Illusions does end combat it is a different combat that is > ended -you can TT/Psyche! to stop the illusion taking effect but once it You cannot Psyche! to interrupt the resolution of Illusions of the Kindred. > is in play it stays until then end of that combat whenever that may be - > it (IotK) does not cause the end to that (the second) combat and so > isn't caused to fail by that combat not ending. Correct. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ expounded: > Timlagor wrote: > > Although Illusions does end combat it is a different combat that is > > ended -you can TT/Psyche! to stop the illusion taking effect but once it > > You cannot Psyche! to interrupt the resolution of Illusions of the Kindred. Now I'm confused. You can't play Psyche! in response to the 'Combat Ends' on IotK? How is IotK different from say Rotschreck to merit this? (both say "combat ends" | both go on to say something else that happens immediately afterwards} I know I wasn't that clear.. were you referring to the end of the second combat where you can't play Psyche! to keep your illusion going? (as opposed to the original one where I thought you could play Psyche! to stop the illusion coming out) I'm still not clear on why you can't play Psyche! as the acting vampire in the 'after combat' slot before choosing to resolve the 'remove from game' effect kicks in.

Timlagor wrote: > You can't play Psyche! in response to the 'Combat Ends' on IotK? How is > IotK different from say Rotschreck to merit this? IotK queues a combat. > I know I wasn't that clear.. were you referring to the end of the second > combat where you can't play Psyche! to keep your illusion going? (as > opposed to the original one where I thought you could play Psyche! to > stop the illusion coming out) Psyche! cannot be played at either time. In the first, because there's a combat queued already. In the second, because the vampire that is removed from the game is not ready. > I'm still not clear on why you can't play Psyche! as the acting vampire > in the 'after combat' slot before choosing to resolve the 'remove from > game' effect kicks in. I suppose the case could be made to allow it to be played uselessly (since, after it was played, the vampire would still be removed from the game), but currently it is ruled not to be an event that is ordered but rather just something that happens when combat ends. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ expounded: > Timlagor wrote: > > You can't play Psyche! in response to the 'Combat Ends' on IotK? How is > > IotK different from say Rotschreck to merit this? > > IotK queues a combat. > > > I know I wasn't that clear.. were you referring to the end of the second > > combat where you can't play Psyche! to keep your illusion going? (as > > opposed to the original one where I thought you could play Psyche! to > > stop the illusion coming out) > > Psyche! cannot be played at either time. > In the first, because there's a combat queued already. > In the second, because the vampire that is removed from the game is not ready. Aha! That makes sense now, thanks :-)

dra...@uol.com.br (Dragos) wrote in message news:<ed515761.03100...@posting.google.com>... > It makes no sense to me: > > If the combat is ended by the time he would play Psyche!, then why > didn't he just play Psyche! right during it? If not,Psyche! should'n > be a combat card, as the combat has ALREADY ENDED by the time the > minion plays it!! > > Please come up with a very good explan ation, or it will remain to me > "it will be like that because LSJ said so". > > Tks > > Dragos If Psyche! were an Action Modifier/Reaction split card (which it'd have to be to keep the same functionality) instead of a combat card, you would only be able to play one per action, which would be a significant de-powering of the card. Having it as a combat card also limits the play of the card to the minion who just finished that combat, instead of letting it work like Fast Reaction, only better: Bob's vampire blocks you, combat ends, Bob's vampire reacts with Psyche to jump back in, combat ends, Bob's second vampire Psyche!s because nothing says it's only playable by the guy exiting combat), combat ends... then Joe's vampire cross-table reacts to Psyche! into the combat, because hey, it's just a reaction card that lets you enter combat... Of course, as a reaction card/action mod, in order to even PLAY Psyche! you'd have to be untapped as written, so if you blocked an action, you wouldn't be able to Psyche! unless you had a Wake or the equivalent handy.. except that playing the Wake between combat ending and trying to restart it lets people respond to the Wake being played, and suddenly there might be a long chain of cards played between a combat ending and Psyche beginning, which clearly isn't 'when combat ends'. Also, the card text on Psyche specifies that it is "Only usable at the end of a combat." This 'Only' means that (currently) you cannot play Psyche during a combat, only at the end of it. -John Flournoy