Deck Idea - "You Really Shouldn't Block Konrad Fleischer"

I posted this earlier to the VTES UK forum, but I'm eager for a response, so I'm soliciting the wider world. The deck would center on this guy: Konrad Fleischer: 9 cap !Ven, G4 tha ANI AUS DOM FOR Sabbat: Once each round, Konrad may treat 1 aggravated damage as normal. He gets an optional press each combat. Here's the turn: Konrad bleeds with Govern or an earlier-equipped Pulse for 3. If blocked, he plays Dawn Operation at superior. Before combat begins, he uses Weather Control at basic. That damage is aggravated and unpreventable; the opposing vampire goes to torpor. Konrad treats the damage as normal. (I think this combo should work to trump combat decks, which is vital in my metagame.) If he's not blocked, he adds Conditioning for 7 bleed. If he's bounced, he can Change of Target or something. So, first off: is this feasible as a basic bruise and bleed strategy? I figure that adding in a couple Dragonbounds and Fames will mean that my prey is rapidly losing pool whether or not he blocks. With Freaks for untap and Governs at superior, I can do a bit of bloating. With ANI, AUS, and DOM, I have block or bounce possibilities open. Second: who should make up the supporting cast, and what would they do? I'm thinking a whole bunch of 3 cap vamps with dom, so they can receive Governs for bloat and so I can bring them out to diablerize the vampires in torpor (and if they burn to a blood hunt, no big deal). Thanks for the help! I'm looking forward to building this...

On Mar 29, 3:52 pm, DeathInABottle <li...@uvic.ca> wrote: > I posted this earlier to the VTES UK forum, but I'm eager for a > response, so I'm soliciting the wider world. The deck would center on > this guy: > > Konrad Fleischer: 9 cap !Ven, G4 > > tha ANI AUS DOM FOR > > Sabbat: Once each round, Konrad may treat 1 aggravated damage as > normal. He gets an optional press each combat. > > Here's the turn: Konrad bleeds with Govern or an earlier-equipped > Pulse for 3. If blocked, he plays Dawn Operation at superior. Before > combat begins, he uses Weather Control at basic. That damage is > aggravated and unpreventable; the opposing vampire goes to torpor. > Konrad treats the damage as normal. (I think this combo should work to > trump combat decks, which is vital in my metagame.) If he's not > blocked, he adds Conditioning for 7 bleed. Why 7? Last time I checked, 3 + 3 = 6. > If he's bounced, he can > Change of Target or something. Or what? And what does he do if he changes target? > So, first off: is this feasible as a basic bruise and bleed strategy? Probably not. You're putting together a fairly complex chain of cards that doesn't work very well if any of the pieces are missing. Also since you're playing with an expensive "star vampire", you will probably only be bleeding with one minion a turn, which means your prey only needs one bounce card each turn to completely hose your deck. Bruise bleed can work well if you are bleeding with two or three minions, since your prey probably won't be able to deflect / reduce the bleeds. One bleed a turn isn't a very serious threat. Unless of course you put in more serious anti-bounce tech, like Revelations. But that again adds to the complexity of the deck. This is a classic example of a deck that can come up with a perfectly solid and very trumpy chain of cards / vampire abilities, but can't make that work as a deck, because it: - is reliant on basically one minion, who can easily be bounced, ignored, banished, Pentexed, etc. - is reliant on a chain of cards that falls fairly flat if pieces are missing. e.g. if you have no govern / pulse, he bleeds for 1, which is pointless. If you have no Dawn Op then there is no agg damage and you have nothing scary to do in combat. If you have no weather control, see previous point. > I figure that adding in a couple Dragonbounds and Fames will mean that > my prey is rapidly losing pool whether or not he blocks. With Freaks > for untap and Governs at superior, I can do a bit of bloating. With > ANI, AUS, and DOM, I have block or bounce possibilities open. > > Second: who should make up the supporting cast, and what would they > do? I'm thinking a whole bunch of 3 cap vamps with dom, so they can > receive Governs for bloat and so I can bring them out to diablerize > the vampires in torpor (and if they burn to a blood hunt, no big deal). Not a bad idea. But maybe drop Conrad and play a dom/for bruise bleed deck with smaller minions. Lots of governs (to be used at basic or super), dawn ops, and just hit people with fists or walking sticks and/ or t:vitals etc in combat. You will be beaten by Majesty, but you will get running faster, be much less exposed to sense dep / pentex, be able to apply much more pressure to a prey with bleed defense, etc. My experience is if you are playing a stealth bleed or bruise / bleed strategy, you need to be making stealthy and/or threatening bleeds with more than one minion. A deck that has no defense against one bleeder is not a competitive deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

[snipped stuff] If you're looking to do a Weather Control - No-agg-for-me deck... then seriously why aren't you doing a Tha + For bleed/rusher or similar? Weather Control + Skin of Night = gold plated combat... plus the option to add in some intercept and Rotschreck. Sure it becomes just another wacky variation on a Tre/!Tre-Wall of Mojo... I know that you're planning to "send on home" a bleed of 7... but just wait for the Archon Investigation to have your deck turn to faff. Seriously with any indication of what was coming, I'd block with a chump, watch them explode and then Archon Investigate Konrad... bye bye Konrad... and I'll have 2+ turns of WAILING on my prey before you were going to hassle me much. Option B: Forget that Konrad has Tha... just go for a Classic Dom-For "Daytime Bleed Special". Scouting Mission Down, Force of Will + Dawn/ Day Op, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing... it's a crazy land of torpor bouncing and bleeding for 2+ with a handful of minions.

On Mar 29, 5:52 am, DeathInABottle <li...@uvic.ca> wrote: > So, first off: is this feasible as a basic bruise and bleed strategy? > I figure that adding in a couple Dragonbounds and Fames will mean that > my prey is rapidly losing pool whether or not he blocks. With Freaks > for untap and Governs at superior, I can do a bit of bloating. With > ANI, AUS, and DOM, I have block or bounce possibilities open. Prior to 2006, this was a viable strategy (most often centered around Cardano and Muaziz, and also including Graverobbings). Nowadays, I'd strongly assert that this deck concept is completely NON- feasible, because 2006 introduced the Imbued. A year or two back I was playing a game where an Imbued player was my predator, and a Dawn Op / Weather Control deck was my grandpredator. One of the most ineffective grandpredators ever. Was absolutely helpless against a deck which simply didn't care about aggravated damage. Maybe you can add some anti-ally tech (Blood of Sandman is an attractive new choice which might make the concept re-viable), but then you risk diluting your deck concept. Also, remember that the deck only trumps other combat decks during your turn. If you get rushed by other players during their turns, those Dawn Ops are going to be pretty useless.

On 29 maalis, 07:52, DeathInABottle <li...@uvic.ca> wrote: > I posted this earlier to the VTES UK forum, but I'm eager for a > response, so I'm soliciting the wider world. The deck would center on > this guy: > > Konrad Fleischer: 9 cap !Ven, G4 > > tha ANI AUS DOM FOR > > Sabbat: Once each round, Konrad may treat 1 aggravated damage as > normal. He gets an optional press each combat. > > Here's the turn: Konrad bleeds with Govern or an earlier-equipped > Pulse for 3. If blocked, he plays Dawn Operation at superior. Before > combat begins, he uses Weather Control at basic. That damage is > aggravated and unpreventable; the opposing vampire goes to torpor. > Konrad treats the damage as normal. (I think this combo should work to > trump combat decks, which is vital in my metagame.) If he's not > blocked, he adds Conditioning for 7 bleed. If he's bounced, he can > Change of Target or something. > > So, first off: is this feasible as a basic bruise and bleed strategy? No, not as a main strategy. Konrad has ANI and a press. That's 6 damage with Carrion Crows so I'm thinking 8-10 Crows as the meat of the combat package and 4-6 Dawn Ops and 4 Weather Controls as something to squash Howler/whatever with. Big environmental damage is usually much better than small aggravated anyway. After that you just have to figure out what to do with the chump- problem. The permanent press is a good start and if you have enough intercept you could have time to just grind blood counters until your prey can't rescue anymore. I haven't seen Crocodile's Tongue used effectively yet but maybe it's worth a try with all the aggravated environmental damage.

DeathInABottle wrote: > I posted this earlier to the VTES UK forum, but I'm eager for a > response, so I'm soliciting the wider world. The deck would center on > this guy: > > Konrad Fleischer: 9 cap !Ven, G4 > > tha ANI AUS DOM FOR > > Sabbat: Once each round, Konrad may treat 1 aggravated damage as > normal. He gets an optional press each combat. > So, first off: is this feasible as a basic bruise and bleed strategy? > I figure that adding in a couple Dragonbounds and Fames will mean that > my prey is rapidly losing pool whether or not he blocks. With Freaks > for untap and Governs at superior, I can do a bit of bloating. With > ANI, AUS, and DOM, I have block or bounce possibilities open. I'm tempted right now to try a version, but I'd go for Burst of sunlight instead : playable in any configuration, acting or reacting, including with Rötschrek, and a supporting cast is easier to find. Orpheus

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > On Mar 29, 5:52 am, DeathInABottle <li...@uvic.ca> wrote: >> So, first off: is this feasible as a basic bruise and bleed strategy? >> I figure that adding in a couple Dragonbounds and Fames will mean that >> my prey is rapidly losing pool whether or not he blocks. With Freaks >> for untap and Governs at superior, I can do a bit of bloating. With >> ANI, AUS, and DOM, I have block or bounce possibilities open. > > > Prior to 2006, this was a viable strategy (most often centered around > Cardano and Muaziz, and also including Graverobbings). > > Nowadays, I'd strongly assert that this deck concept is completely NON- > feasible, because 2006 introduced the Imbued. > > A year or two back I was playing a game where an Imbued player was my > predator, and a Dawn Op / Weather Control deck was my grandpredator. > One of the most ineffective grandpredators ever. Was absolutely > helpless against a deck which simply didn't care about aggravated > damage. This is equivalent to: "a deck concept is invalid if there exists any deck that can thwart it". So every deck concept is invalid, by that definition.

[ quoted text not captured ] You are, of course, correct. ;) But I think the matter of concern would be more like "A concept isn't currently viable if the metagame thwarts it more often than not." And although the Imbued have been much less predominant since last year's erratas, there are lots or allies around nowadays, so relying solely on aggropocks isn't viable if you don't also include anti-allies tech. Orpheus

On Mar 29, 5:39 am, "Orpheus" <orpheus.TAKEOU...@free.fr> wrote: > LSJ wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Assorted replies: I'm not sure that this is really a "complex chain of cards" to pull off. If I have Robert Carter and/or a Pulse equipped, I'm bleeding for 5/3 already - more, if I can pull out a Legendary Vampire. I only need two cards - WC + Dawn Op - to make it functional. Conditioning is gravy at that point. Storage Annex, Barrens and Dreams will help. This is at least a less complex chain than adding in Skin of Night with a smaller cap vampire. I've literally never seen an Imbued deck. They're just not in my metagame. Allies are a vague concern, but level one of WC will make short work of the more common/useful ones, like Mylan - so again, I don't see this as a problem in my particular group. I'm adding a couple Commands just in case. As to the being-rushed-in-my-predator's-turn problem, Konrad's a high generation, so Autonomic Mastery is a feasible solution, as is Skin of Steel. I can't see needing any more than four each of those. I can also block normal rushes with expendable babies. Speaking of, the suggestion about using Revelations to counter bleed bounce is a great one, and it would give my supporting cast something to do. I've modified them entirely; thanks for that suggestion. Pentex Subversion isn't an issue with a bunch of 3-cap vampires to burn it for me. Banishment would be slightly irritating, and Sensory Deprivation would be a disaster. (But isn't it always a problem in a superstar deck?) Archon Investigation would suck, but they only rarely make an appearance in my group. Juggernaut - I like Option B. I may scrap the above and give that a go instead. Orpheus - Burst + Rotschrek is great, but Burst alone is useless going forward if your prey has any combat cards at all. Anyway, all that said, here's a first crack at a build. It's mostly meant to be fun; I don't plan on trying any tournaments with this. Still, if the received wisdom continues to be "forget it", I'll try something else. Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 10, Max: 36, Avg: 5.21) ---------------------------------------------- 1 Ember Wright aus dom 3 Tremere Antitribu 1 Feo Ramos aus 1 Pander 1 Janine aus dom tha 4 Tremere Antitribu 5 Konrad Fleischer tha ANI AUS DOM FOR9 Ventrue Antitribu 1 Lectora aus tha 3 Tremere Antitribu 1 Martin Franckel tha AUS 3 Tremere 1 Michael Luther aus pre 4 Toreador 1 Prejudice aus dom nec 4 Nagaraja 1 Saiz aus dom 3 Tremere Antitribu 1 Sister Evelyn aus dom 3 Ventrue Antitribu Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (13 cards) 1 Barrens, The 1 Corporate Hunting Ground 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 2 Fame 2 Information Highway 2 Legendary Vampire 2 Perfectionist 2 Storage Annex Action (18 cards) 8 Govern the Unaligned 2 Masochism 2 Pulse of the Canaille 6 Revelations Action Modifier (25 cards) 2 Change of Target 2 Command 8 Conditioning 9 Dawn Operation 4 Freak Drive Reaction (12 cards) 6 Deflection 2 Loyalist 4 On the Qui Vive Combat (17 cards) 4 Autonomic Mastery 4 Skin of Steel 9 Weather Control Ally (1 cards) 1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin) Retainer (2 cards) 2 Robert Carter Event (2 cards) 2 Dragonbound

DeathInABottle <li...@uvic.ca> wrote: >As to the being-rushed-in-my-predator's-turn problem, Konrad's a high >generation, so Autonomic Mastery is a feasible solution, Autonomic Mastery isn't great. Things it doesn't stop include: - Torn Signpost - pow - Disarm - aggro-poke (claws, Ivory Bow, Body Flare, whatever) - Lapse - Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking, Coordinate Attacks afterwards -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] > 2 Dragonbound- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Burst is not a useless forward trick... it just needs some lateral thinking support. One deck I use around my group periodically is "Martin Frankel Says No"... a 3-cap superstar deck with Martin Frankel blocking + Burst or rushing + Burst then using Chantry with a bigger vampire. So if you have a blocker... I'll rush + burst with Martin and then send in someone else (Valois Sang, Oliver Thrace, etc)... if my prey doesn't really worry me with blocking, then I keep Martin to Reduce or Block + Burst... If Martin Explodes... oh no, whatever will I do with the 4 transfers at the end of my turn... As far as the deck you've posted... your Chumps better sit there and look pretty all the time or you are taking it through the pants by any half-way decent Mid-bleeder (3+ consistent bleeder)

> Orpheus - Burst + Rotschrek is great, but Burst alone is useless going > forward if your prey has any combat cards at all. Maybe a better way to go at it would be Dawn Op + "whatever", including Carrion Crows, and some Telepathic Tracking against S:CE ; that and the natural press should do the trick, as very few decks will be able to handle aggravs from 2 sources twice in a row... But let's take a look at your version : > Anyway, all that said, here's a first crack at a build. It's mostly > meant to be fun; I don't plan on trying any tournaments with this. > Still, if the received wisdom continues to be "forget it", I'll try > something else. > > Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 10, Max: 36, Avg: 5.21) > ---------------------------------------------- > 1 Ember Wright aus dom 3 Tremere > Antitribu > 1 Feo Ramos aus 1 Pander > 1 Janine aus dom tha 4 Tremere > Antitribu > 5 Konrad Fleischer tha ANI AUS DOM FOR9 Ventrue > Antitribu > 1 Lectora aus tha 3 Tremere > Antitribu > 1 Martin Franckel tha AUS 3 Tremere > 1 Michael Luther aus pre 4 Toreador > 1 Prejudice aus dom nec 4 Nagaraja > 1 Saiz aus dom 3 Tremere > Antitribu > 1 Sister Evelyn aus dom 3 Ventrue > Antitribu Seeing your supporting cast, I'm really not convinced by the crypt. I'd go for bigger guys that can better back up Konrad's plan. For instance, Claus Wegener and Jefferson Foster have all the disciplines you play, for a reasonnable cost. Of course that would imply adding more For prevent and not playing your main combo with them (or rescuing them afterwards) but I'd like it better than having weenies that will just die if blocked. > Library: (90 cards) > ------------------- > Master (13 cards) > 1 Barrens, The > 1 Corporate Hunting Ground > 1 Dreams of the Sphinx > 2 Fame > 2 Information Highway > 2 Legendary Vampire I'm not sure Legendary is good in this deck, because you won't have enough votes to hold it. Maybe Demonstration would be a solution, or maybe it would be a good replacement. > 2 Perfectionist > 2 Storage Annex Are you sure you can't find 2 better masters for the slots ? Except in special decks like Guillaume Giovanni I can think of quite a few... > Action (18 cards) > 8 Govern the Unaligned > 2 Masochism Nice combo with Weather Control !! > 2 Pulse of the Canaille > 6 Revelations > > Action Modifier (25 cards) > 2 Change of Target > 2 Command > 8 Conditioning > 9 Dawn Operation > 4 Freak Drive > > Reaction (12 cards) > 6 Deflection > 2 Loyalist > 4 On the Qui Vive > > Combat (17 cards) > 4 Autonomic Mastery > 4 Skin of Steel > 9 Weather Control > > Ally (1 cards) > 1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin) > > Retainer (2 cards) > 2 Robert Carter > > Event (2 cards) > 2 Dragonbound Nice decklist over all, except I'd go for more For but that's just me. Orpheus

> I haven't seen Crocodile's Tongue used > effectively yet but maybe it's worth a try with all the aggravated > environmental damage. hehehe, I just won a tournament with a Croc Tongue deck. It is a powerful card, especially if used judiciously. --> J grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/grail_j

[ quoted text not captured ] I'd be curious to see the deck (especially the crypt)...

> I've literally never seen an Imbued deck. They're just not in my > metagame. Allies are a vague concern, but level one of WC will make > short work of the more common/useful ones, like Mylan - so again, I > don't see this as a problem in my particular group. I'm adding a > couple Commands just in case. I'm thinking : Konrad isn't titled so he can become Anarch (which now isn't problematic anymore thanks to Anarch Converts). The card that totally trumps blocking allies is Libertas. That can replace all your other slots (but still 2 Far Masteries could help). Maybe it could be worth it. You'd also benefit from Anarch Railroad (to place a bleed from your other guys) and a few more... Orpheus

[ quoted text not captured ] Cool! I've always been a fan of Croc Tongue. What deck was it? Tore? ! Ventrue? Something else weird?

James Coupe wrote: > DeathInABottle <li...@uvic.ca> wrote: >> As to the being-rushed-in-my-predator's-turn problem, Konrad's a high >> generation, so Autonomic Mastery is a feasible solution, > > Autonomic Mastery isn't great. Things it doesn't stop include: > > - Torn Signpost - pow - Disarm > - aggro-poke (claws, Ivory Bow, Body Flare, whatever) > - Lapse > - Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking, Coordinate Attacks afterwards > > He doesn't mention it, but AM is good in high ally metagames. I like to include a couple, esp for Ossian and Imbued. best - chris

I kind of like the idea. See comments below. / Robert [ quoted text not captured ] ¤¤ You have no way to target a specific vampire, so I would skip Fame. Legendary Vampire and Information Highway are only good if you get them in the beginning of the game. Skip those too. I don't think you can afford HG. Skip. Personally I would ditch the barrens as well. I would add 2 more Dreams to speed up transfers and most importantly, give you bigger hand and increase the possibility to get the combo. This give you 6 other cards to add. ¤¤ > Action (18 cards) > 8 Govern the Unaligned > 2 Masochism > 2 Pulse of the Canaille > 6 Revelations ¤¤ I would skip 1-2 Pulse. Add 1-2 Scouting Mission. ¤¤ > Action Modifier (25 cards) > 2 Change of Target > 2 Command > 8 Conditioning > 9 Dawn Operation > 4 Freak Drive Here I would add 3 more Freak Drive and 4 Seduction. 3 Grave Robbing would be cool! > Reaction (12 cards) > 6 Deflection > 2 Loyalist > 4 On the Qui Vive ¤¤ Looks fine. ¤¤ > Combat (17 cards) > 4 Autonomic Mastery > 4 Skin of Steel > 9 Weather Control ¤¤ Rolling with the Punches is plain better than Skin of Steel in this deck. I would skip Autonomic, the weenies are really not that important. More prevent maybe? ¤¤ > Ally (1 cards) > 1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin) > > Retainer (2 cards) > 2 Robert Carter ¤¤ Robert Carter is really bad combo together with Weather Control. Skip. ¤¤ > Event (2 cards) > 2 Dragonbound ¤¤ You will put at most one vampire per turn into torpor. Full. So they will not stay there for long. Better to Grave rob them ;-)