Kurt Densch question (LSJ)

In http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59f09d292cf38049?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8 , his ability can be ordered with the replacement of a Wake, during the untap phase. Is this still true ? I'm wondering because of the june 2008 reversal on Sudario? thanks Stone Name: Kurt Densch [CE:V, Anarchs:PAB, BSC:X] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nosferatu Group: 3 Capacity: 8 Discipline: ani aus cel OBF POT Camarilla: During your untap phase, you may look at the top card of your library, and Kurt may burn 1 blood to move that card to the bottom of your library. +1 intercept. Artist: Mike Danza

Stone wrote: > In > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59f09d292cf38049?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8 , > his ability can be ordered with the replacement of a Wake, during the untap > phase. > Is this still true ? No. Once in your untap phase, Wake is no longer counting against your hand size, so you immediately draw up to your proper hand size. > I'm wondering because of the june 2008 reversal on Sudario? Link?

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a �crit dans le message de news: 4A9525B4...@white-wolf.com... >> I'm wondering because of the june 2008 reversal on Sudario? > > Link? most recent one : http://groups.google.fr/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a6fe061760aa6f92?hl=fr it also has the links that were reversed Stone

On Aug 26, 8:16 am, "Stone" <mc_judgest...@yahoo.fr> wrote: > "LSJ" <vtes...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de news: > 4A9525B4.2080...@white-wolf.com... > > >> I'm wondering because of the june 2008 reversal on Sudario? > > > Link? > > most recent one :http://groups.google.fr/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a6fe0... > it also has the links that were reversed > Stone The linked threads are not reversed. What is reversed is LSJ's ruling earlier in that thread. Later, ~Rehlow

LSJ wrote: > Stone wrote: >> In >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59f09d292cf38049?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8 >> , his ability can be ordered with the replacement of a Wake, during >> the untap phase. Is this still true ? > > No. Once in your untap phase, Wake is no longer counting against your > hand size, so you immediately draw up to your proper hand size. Is this one of those rare things that happens *before* you untap? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

Kevin M. wrote: > LSJ wrote: >> Stone wrote: >>> In >>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59f09d292cf38049?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8 >>> , his ability can be ordered with the replacement of a Wake, during >>> the untap phase. Is this still true ? >> No. Once in your untap phase, Wake is no longer counting against your >> hand size, so you immediately draw up to your proper hand size. > > Is this one of those rare things that happens *before* you untap? Doesn't matter, but sure.

Kevin M. <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > Stone wrote: > >> In > >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59f09d292cf38049?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8 > >> , his ability can be ordered with the replacement of a Wake, during > >> the untap phase. Is this still true ? > > > > No. Once in your untap phase, Wake is no longer counting against your > > hand size, so you immediately draw up to your proper hand size. > Is this one of those rare things that happens *before* you untap? As I figure it, the beginning of your turn goes like this: A) Do I have a turn? (First Tradition Decision). B) "until next turn/untap phase" effects expire. Malkavian Dementia'd vampires are returned, withdrawal succeeds, redraw Wakes, etc. C) Checks at "beginning of turn" are made. Is Club Zombie untapped? Is Bartholomew untapped? Which of my cards do not untap as normal? D) Untap all cards that untap as normal. E) Start doing the "during your untap phase" effects. No "during your untap phase" effects can be used from A-D. Quirky things like Vampiric Disease can be triggered in phase D, though.

On Aug 27, 9:10 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > Kevin M. <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > Stone wrote: > > >> In > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59f0... > > >> , his ability can be ordered with the replacement of a Wake, during > > >> the untap phase. Is this still true ? > > > > No. Once in your untap phase, Wake is no longer counting against your > > > hand size, so you immediately draw up to your proper hand size. > > Is this one of those rare things that happens *before* you untap? > > As I figure it, the beginning of your turn goes like this: > > A) Do I have a turn? (First Tradition Decision). > B) "until next turn/untap phase" effects expire. Malkavian Dementia'd vampires > are returned, withdrawal succeeds, redraw Wakes, etc. > C) Checks at "beginning of turn" are made. Is Club Zombie untapped? Is > Bartholomew untapped? Which of my cards do not untap as normal? > D) Untap all cards that untap as normal. > E) Start doing the "during your untap phase" effects. > > No "during your untap phase" effects can be used from A-D. Quirky things like > Vampiric Disease can be triggered in phase D, though. As far as I understood, Untapping of cards happened automatically as soon as the untap phase commenced. So C & D happen simultaneously. A) Will I have a turn? - 1st Trad B) Things that end "until my next turn", "until next untap phase" end BEFORE I untap cards. UNTAP PHASE STARTS C) Untap cards and check any "If Card X is tapped/untapped" (Cry Wolf, Bartholemew, Club Zombie, etc) D) "During your untap phase..." effects (HGs, Society of Leopold, Smiling Jack...) E) End of your Untap Phase

Juggernaut1981 <brassc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > C) Checks at "beginning of turn" are made. �Is Club Zombie untapped? Is > > Bartholomew untapped? �Which of my cards do not untap as normal? > > D) Untap all cards that untap as normal. > As far as I understood, Untapping of cards happened automatically as > soon as the untap phase commenced. So C & D happen simultaneously. > C) Untap cards and check any "If Card X is tapped/untapped" (Cry Wolf, > Bartholemew, Club Zombie, etc) I think we're arguing semantics. You have to check if these things were true before you physically untap the cards, and then use the results of that check after you physically untap them. Otherwise, Club Zombie could be used for both its effects, which is not the intent.

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > On Aug 27, 9:10 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: >> As I figure it, the beginning of your turn goes like this: >> >> A) Do I have a turn? (First Tradition Decision). >> B) "until next turn/untap phase" effects expire. Malkavian Dementia'd vampires >> are returned, withdrawal succeeds, redraw Wakes, etc. >> C) Checks at "beginning of turn" are made. Is Club Zombie untapped? Is >> Bartholomew untapped? Which of my cards do not untap as normal? >> D) Untap all cards that untap as normal. >> E) Start doing the "during your untap phase" effects. >> >> No "during your untap phase" effects can be used from A-D. Quirky things like >> Vampiric Disease can be triggered in phase D, though. > > As far as I understood, Untapping of cards happened automatically as > soon as the untap phase commenced. So C & D happen simultaneously. It doesn't do any good to check to see if Club Zombie is untapped simultaneously with untapping it. It is properly broken out into two steps.