Greetings all! I've got a fun little deck idea that I put together
this morning that I'd love some help with. It's called The Red Vines
(I know... it's kind of lame, but all 87 of my currently constructed
decks are named after candies, desserts, or ice cream flavors).
What I'm looking to do:
The point isn't to win crushing victories, but to be able to say that
every vampire you bring out ends up being both infernal and red-listed
and that you still have a viable deck that can maybe squeak out a VP
or two. I've avoided staples like Carlton, Heart of Nizchetus,
Pentex, and Deflection. It's mostly a wall deck, with a little bit of
bleed. The deck is designed to go through itself fairly quickly...
there are a lot of cards for cycling cards. The infernal servitors
can be used as finishing bleeds if necessary (Psychomachia, perhaps)
but are intended to be Sense the Sin/Flames blockers. Right now the
problem I'm seeing is blood and pool management... though I haven't
playtested yet.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Things I've put in and then
removed (but might put back in again) include: As the Crow, Tension in
the Ranks, Guardian Angel, Dive Bomb, Seeds of Corruption, Pulse of
the Canaille, and Diabolic Lure. I'd be particularly interested in
hearing arguments as to why these should go back in!
CRYPT:
4x Sundervere, The Devil Brahmin (Setite 8)
4x Valerius Maior (Adv) (!Tremere 7)
4x Petaniqua (basic) (Malkavian 9)
LIBRARY: 90 cards
Master: (13 cards)
Sudden Reversal
Elder Library
Fragment of the Book of Nod
2x Path of Evil Revelations
3x Rotschreck
Powerbase Montreal
Powerbase Chicago
Tension in the Ranks
Path of Lilith
The Barrens
Maleficia Module: (13 cards)
4x Maleficia
6x Evil Eye
3x Psalm of the Damned
Combat: (16 cards)
2x Theft of Vitae
6x Flames of the Netherworld
3x Ignore the Searing Flames
5x Burst of Sunlight
Combo Cards: (6 cards)
6x Sense the Sin
Equipment Stuff: (7 cards)
3x Magic of the Smith
2x The Textbook Damnation
Bowl of Convergence
Kaymakli Fragment
Diablerie Stuff: (3 cards)
2x Rebirth
1x Ritual of the Bitter Rose
Actions: (8 cards)
2x Contagion
3x Concordance
3x Rutor's Hand
Modifiers: (4 cards)
4x Psychomachia
Reactions: (16 cards)
2x Revelation of Despair
3x Spirit's Touch
2x Enhanced Senses
6x Eyes of Argus
3x On the Qui Vive
Allies: (3 card)
Mylan Horseseed
2x Infernal Servitor
Retainers: (1 card)
Mr. Winthrop
Legendre wrote:
> Greetings all! I've got a fun little deck idea that I put together
> this morning that I'd love some help with. It's called The Red Vines
> (I know... it's kind of lame, but all 87 of my currently constructed
> decks are named after candies, desserts, or ice cream flavors).
Reall? Wow. I'm not sure if that's a sign of genius, or um, something
else... :-)
>
> Master: (13 cards)
> Sudden Reversal
> Elder Library
> Fragment of the Book of Nod
> 2x Path of Evil Revelations
> 3x Rotschreck
> Powerbase Montreal
> Powerbase Chicago
> Tension in the Ranks
> Path of Lilith
> The Barrens
>
I really wanted to see Bleeding the Vine here, just because of deck name.
Maybe in place of Sudden Reversal? Except, of course, it's another
"infernal" type pool cost for you.
best -
chris
On Apr 18, 4:27 pm, Legendre <glav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I'm looking to do:
> The point isn't to win crushing victories, but to be able to say that
> every vampire you bring out ends up being both infernal and red-listed
> and that you still have a viable deck that can maybe squeak out a VP
> or two. I've avoided staples like Carlton, Heart of Nizchetus,
> Pentex, and Deflection. It's mostly a wall deck, with a little bit of
> bleed. The deck is designed to go through itself fairly quickly...
> there are a lot of cards for cycling cards. The infernal servitors
> can be used as finishing bleeds if necessary (Psychomachia, perhaps)
> but are intended to be Sense the Sin/Flames blockers. Right now the
> problem I'm seeing is blood and pool management... though I haven't
> playtested yet.
>
> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
No offense, but I'm not at all sure what kind of opinions you want on
this deck. If you're looking to make the deck better, you're going to
get the kinds of suggestions that you don't seem to want (ie, the
cards you already know will make the deck better but which you
deliberately aren't using). If you want the deck to have a ready
region full of infernal red list guys, it looks like you've already
got the deck you're looking for.
John Eno
> No offense, but I'm not at all sure what kind of opinions you want on
> this deck. If you're looking to make the deck better, you're going to
> get the kinds of suggestions that you don't seem to want (ie, the
> cards you already know will make the deck better but which you
> deliberately aren't using). If you want the deck to have a ready
> region full of infernal red list guys, it looks like you've already
> got the deck you're looking for.
>
> John Eno
What I'm looking for is the sage advice of fellow VTES players to make
this deck better, while not destroying the deck's thematic elements.
It's quite possible, for instance, that I've not got the various
components of the deck balanced properly, that I don't have enough
untap for defending my Powerbases, or that I'm underestimating how
many Maleficia masters I need to get two out in the first half of the
game. I also sometimes don't remember every single card that will be
useful. (Kaymakli Fragment, for instance, is GREAT for this deck and
fits in with the infernal thing AND the magic of the Smith thing...
but didn't get put in in the first couple versions because I forgot
about it.)
Just thinking about what sorts of comments might be helpful, actually,
gave me an idea: an extra Concordance and some High Grounds to deal
with grapple rush.... but what to take out? Revelation of Despair,
maybe. Path of Lilith? Hrm..... decisions decisions decisions.
I actually really liked Chris' Bleeding the Vine suggestion... that
was inspired. (Any thoughts on how to pay for it?)
On Apr 19, 2:25 pm, Legendre <glav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I'm looking for is the sage advice of fellow VTES players to make
> this deck better, while not destroying the deck's thematic elements.
That second part is probably impossible, since only you know what
those thematic elements are. (For example, I have no idea what Chicago
has to do with infernalism.)
That said, I'll post some comments on the deck, and let you figure out
their thematic fidelity or lack thereof. :)
John Eno
On Apr 18, 4:27 pm, Legendre <glav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> CRYPT:
> 4x Sundervere, The Devil Brahmin (Setite 8)
> 4x Valerius Maior (Adv) (!Tremere 7)
> 4x Petaniqua (basic) (Malkavian 9)
Some nerds to run errands would be good here. If you decide that you
want to keep these three, and are trying to get them all out, you'll
probably need both Wider View and a way to turn a bunch of their blood
into pool.
> LIBRARY: 90 cards
>
> Master: (13 cards)
> Sudden Reversal
> Elder Library
> Fragment of the Book of Nod
> 2x Path of Evil Revelations
> 3x Rotschreck
> Powerbase Montreal
> Powerbase Chicago
> Tension in the Ranks
> Path of Lilith
> The Barrens
You can easily run more cards than this, and probably should.
Powerbase: Montreal just adds beads to the table, which is not going
to work out in your benefit.
Powerbase: Chicago is rather bad, given how long it takes to actually
make you a profit.
Tension In the Ranks is very risky, given how often you're trying to
get into combat and how fragile your vampires are.
I've yet to see Path of Lilith ever do anything in a game.
Some useful additions would be: Giant's Blood, Smiling Jack, and the
aforementioned blood-to-pool converters and Wider View. Your vampires
have a wide enough discipline spread that Erciyes Fragment could also
pay off quite well.
> Maleficia Module: (13 cards)
> 4x Maleficia
> 6x Evil Eye
> 3x Psalm of the Damned
I think you need more copies of Maleficia here, especially if you want
to play these cards at superior. Four copies in a 90-card deck means
that you'll only be drawing one out of roughly every 22 cards you
draw. If you want it reliably, you should at least double those odds.
> Combat: (16 cards)
> 2x Theft of Vitae
> 6x Flames of the Netherworld
> 3x Ignore the Searing Flames
> 5x Burst of Sunlight
More Thefts would be good, and would support using Rutor's Hands.
The Ignore/Burst trick is cute, but having easy access to ranged agg
damage via Daimonion makes it unnecessary, and the low numbers of each
means that you probably won't have one when you need the other.
> Combo Cards: (6 cards)
> 6x Sense the Sin
Good.
> Equipment Stuff: (7 cards)
> 3x Magic of the Smith
> 2x The Textbook Damnation
> Bowl of Convergence
> Kaymakli Fragment
Some combat permanents would be very well-suited to this deck, since
you plan on blocking a lot and don't have much transient combat to
back that plan up.
> Diablerie Stuff: (3 cards)
> 2x Rebirth
> 1x Ritual of the Bitter Rose
None of this is likely to help you get any VPs.
> Actions: (8 cards)
> 2x Contagion
> 3x Concordance
> 3x Rutor's Hand
Concordance is a nutpunch for this deck. If you want to untap your
guys without paying pool, use more Rutor's Hands and better bloodgain,
both of which are also more flexible and don't hobble your vampires'
ability to take actions.
Some Unleash Hell's Fury would be good here as a means of discouraging
people from messing with your (D) action cards.
> Modifiers: (4 cards)
> 4x Psychomachia
Skip these in favor of more combat, which is good both while you're
acting and while you're blocking.
> Reactions: (16 cards)
> 2x Revelation of Despair
> 3x Spirit's Touch
> 2x Enhanced Senses
> 6x Eyes of Argus
> 3x On the Qui Vive
For a wall deck, there's almost no wall here.
Revelation of Despair is very unlikely to have any noticeable effect
on the game, and since you really need more basic blocking ability
here, I don't think there's room for it. The combo with Sense the Sin
is funny, but that seems like it should either be written off or given
more attention.
> Allies: (3 card)
> Mylan Horseseed
> 2x Infernal Servitor
Good.
> Retainers: (1 card)
> Mr. Winthrop
Winthrop would probably be better off as a Sport Bike, given the
presence of the Magic of the Smith.
John Eno
I like powerbase, barranquilla for this deck over chicago.
the textbook damnation will burn before the path of evil rev. can
untap Sundrevere but by then he will not be infernal.
So even with the path you pay 2 pool to untap your minions.
If you are dead set on having Sundrevere, I would like to see khobar
towers. kaymaki frag bring it up,block with it, eat it.
if you like Bleeding the Vine, House of Sorrow works great with it.
Drop all maleficia you got enough problems w/o adding dead cards.
Matt
On Apr 20, 10:10 am, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I like powerbase, barranquilla for this deck over chicago.
>
Hmmm. I might like it, too.
> the textbook damnation will burn before the path of evil rev. can
> untap Sundrevere but by then he will not be infernal.
> So even with the path you pay 2 pool to untap your minions.
I checked this... the Path and Textbook Damnation work fine together.
There's what purports to be an LSJ ruling at the bottom of this page:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/74650-13-pariah-textbook-damnation>
> If you are dead set on having Sundrevere, I would like to see khobar
> towers. kaymaki frag bring it up,block with it, eat it.
>
> if you like Bleeding the Vine, House of Sorrow works great with it.
Genius
> Drop all maleficia you got enough problems w/o adding dead cards.
Yeah... I'm beginning to think this going to have to be the way of it.
> Matt
Many thanks!
[ quoted text not captured ]> Google link to same:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a36b...
Textbook Damnation
Unique equipment. The vampire with this equipment has superior
Daimoinon [DAI] and is infernal. Cards that require Daimoinon [dai]
cost this vampire 2 less blood to play. During your master phase, if
this vampire is tapped, burn this equipment.
I was not aware you could order this effect. I thought it was
continuous.
So one could, untap a anarch vampire with the Textbook in the untap
phase, check for the textbook, play Piper, untap with the Path of Evil
Rev, tap the Paratheon, play Piper and still keep the Textbook?
Matt
On Apr 21, 11:46 am, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 7:04 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 20, 9:22 pm, Legendre <glav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I checked this... the Path and Textbook Damnation work fine together.
> > > There's what purports to be an LSJ ruling at the bottom of this page:
>
> > >http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/74650-13-pariah-textbook-damnation
>
> > Correct.
>
> > Google link to same:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a36b...
>
> Textbook Damnation
> Unique equipment. The vampire with this equipment has superior
> Daimoinon [DAI] and is infernal. Cards that require Daimoinon [dai]
> cost this vampire 2 less blood to play. During your master phase, if
> this vampire is tapped, burn this equipment.
>
> I was not aware you could order this effect. I thought it was
> continuous.
It is an effect (burn this equipment) that you apply in a certain
window ("during your master phase") if the conditions are met.
Note that you cannot leave that window while the condition is true and
you haven't done the effect.
> So one could, untap a anarch vampire with the Textbook in the untap
> phase,
Yes.
> check for the textbook,
No. You cannot apply the effect if the anarch is untapped.
> play Piper,
Yes.
> untap with the Path of Evil
> Rev, tap the Paratheon, play Piper
Yes.
> and still keep the Textbook?
No. You have not done the Textbook's effect, and the condition is
true.
On Apr 21, 12:50 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
(trim)
> > and still keep the Textbook?
>
> No. You have not done the Textbook's effect, and the condition is
> true.
So would a good summary be "The minion with the Textbook can be tapped
at various points during the Master Phase without a problem (and could
choose to burn the Textbook at any of those points but is not required
to), but you cannot end the Master Phase with the minion tapped and
still equipping the Textbook."?
- D.J.
[ quoted text not captured ]
How is this any different than, entering your master phase and the
vampire with the textbook is tapped. Either you get to order the
effect or you don't. What I am missing, please go sesame street, I
don't get it.
Matt
On Apr 21, 1:18 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 9:50 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > > Textbook Damnation
> > > Unique equipment. The vampire with this equipment has superior
> > > Daimoinon [DAI] and is infernal. Cards that require Daimoinon [dai]
> > > cost this vampire 2 less blood to play. During your master phase, if
> > > this vampire is tapped, burn this equipment.> > It is an effect (burn this equipment) that you apply in a certain> > window ("during your master phase") if the conditions are met.
> > Note that you cannot leave that window while the condition is true and
> > you haven't done the effect.> How is this any different than, entering your master phase and the> vampire with the textbook is tapped. Either you get to order the
> effect or you don't. What I am missing, please go sesame street, I
> don't get it.
You cannot apply the effect when he's untapped.
Card text: "if this vampire is tapped".
So, while he's untapped, there's no effect to order.
When he's tapped, there's an effect to apply (once).
The old version of this question involves Arika.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/69245c719227ce06
And a slightly newer version involves Anarch Revolt
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/38816c5e4204dc37
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sure.
As far as long summaries go.
To sum up: You may apply the specifed effect, if the conditions are
met, during the specified window. The effect is not optional, however
(although it is conditional).
[ quoted text not captured ]
To use Path of Evil Revelation you must be in the master phase. So
unless you pay the infernal cost for the Textbook you are tapped in
the master phase, and must burn the textbook per its' text before
using the Path o ER.
Am I wrong?
On Apr 21, 1:41 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 10:26 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 21, 1:10 pm, Meej <djchag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > So would a good summary be "The minion with the Textbook can be tapped
> > > at various points during the Master Phase without a problem (and could
> > > choose to burn the Textbook at any of those points but is not required
> > > to), but you cannot end the Master Phase with the minion tapped and
> > > still equipping the Textbook."?
>
> > Sure.
>> > To sum up: You may apply the specifed effect, if the conditions are
> > met, during the specified window. The effect is not optional, however
> > (although it is conditional).
>
> To use Path of Evil Revelation you must be in the master phase. So
> unless you pay the infernal cost for the Textbook you are tapped in
> the master phase, and must burn the textbook per its' text before
> using the Path o ER.
> Am I wrong?
Yes, as above.
The Path is also an effect applied in the master phase.
So:
Enter master phase.
Choice of two effects available: Path or Textbook.
Methuselah chooses Path.
Untap all infernals.
Now Textbook's effect is no longer available (the minion is not
tapped).
End master phase.
On Apr 21, 1:26 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> To sum up: You may apply the specifed effect, if the conditions are
> met, during the specified window. The effect is not optional, however
> (although it is conditional).
The effect is not optional, in that you can't leave the master phase
without handling it if the conditions are met, sure.
However, at any given point during your master phase in which you see
that the minion is tapped, it is totally optional whether you handle
it then, right?
That's where wedge's confusion is springing from, I think.
[ quoted text not captured ]
The path is an optional effect, the textbook is not. At the start of
the master phase the conditions are met.
But as long as there in another effect you can choose to resolve that
one first?
so an untapped anarch w/ the textbook enters the master phase, plays
piper, chooses to use the path instead textbook, and the textbook will
not burn. It is the second piper that would create the condition for
the textbook to burn w/ no option to change that. Correct?
[ quoted text not captured ]
True.
> But as long as there in another effect you can choose to resolve that
> one first?
Yes.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/835e26a85f985374
and
"you choose the order in which these effects and your master phase
actions are performed. " [5]
> so an untapped anarch w/ the textbook enters the master phase, plays
> piper, chooses to use the path instead textbook, and the textbook will
> not burn. It is the second piper that would create the condition for
> the textbook to burn w/ no option to change that. Correct?
Well, there is still the option to use some other effect. Maybe one
that will untap the vampire, or move the textbook to a different
minion (perhaps an untapped one or a non-vampire one), and so on.
[ quoted text not captured ]> Yes.http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/835e...>
> and
>
> "you choose the order in which these effects and your master phase
> actions are performed. " [5]
>
> > so an untapped anarch w/ the textbook enters the master phase, plays
> > piper, chooses to use the path instead textbook, and the textbook will
> > not burn. It is the second piper that would create the condition for
> > the textbook to burn w/ no option to change that. Correct?
>
> Well, there is still the option to use some other effect. Maybe one
> that will untap the vampire, or move the textbook to a different
> minion (perhaps an untapped one or a non-vampire one), and so on.
ok, I get it. Thank you for your patience.
Matt
One more question,
At the start of your untap phase: untap all cards is this some thing
that can be interrupted.
i.e.
untap all cards, "infernal minions do not untap as normal", tap the
heidlberg to move the textbook
Will the newly non-infernal minion now untap as normal?
Matt
On Apr 22, 1:27 pm, wedge wrote:
> > At the start of your untap phase: untap all cards is this some thing
> > that can be interrupted.
No.
> > i.e.
> > untap all cards, "infernal minions do not untap as normal", tap the
> > heidlberg to move the textbook
This tapping of Heidelberg happens after the window for untapping
cards closes.
> > Will the newly non-infernal minion now untap as normal?
Nope.
> Is the answer so obvious as not to need a response?
Evidently.
On Apr 22, 1:38 pm, The Lasombra <thelasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 22, 1:27 pm, wedge wrote:
> > > At the start of your untap phase: untap all cards is this some thing
> > > that can be interrupted.
>
> No.
>
> > > i.e.
> > > untap all cards, "infernal minions do not untap as normal", tap the
> > > heidlberg to move the textbook
>
> This tapping of Heidelberg happens after the window for untapping
> cards closes.
>
> > > Will the newly non-infernal minion now untap as normal?
>
> Nope.
Correct.
> > Is the answer so obvious as not to need a response?
(To wedge:)
Sorry. I've been relegated to reading via Google Groups. So after I
saw your "thanks for your patience" post, I didn't notice that you
posted again later, since the display still just showed "wedge" as the
most recent poster, with a timestamp about the right time, and I
thought I had read that most-recent post.
[ quoted text not captured ]
First thing in your untap phase is to...
Untap everything that doesn't get untapped
Then worry about every other "during your untap phase do X" (in
whatever order you want).
Then end your Untap Phase.
Start your Master Phase.
Do every "At the start of your master phase... do X" (in whatever
order)
Do Master Phase Actions & Effects (in whatever order)
End Master Phase.
On Apr 23, 3:59 am, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Start your Master Phase.
>
> Do every "At the start of your master phase... do X" (in whatever
> order)
What specific effects are you thinking of here? I'm pretty sure that
there aren't any, and that you can order effects in your master phase
as you choose.
Palatial Estate used to be worded that way, but isn't any more.
John Eno
[ quoted text not captured ]> John Eno
I once began to work on some flowcharts of the various phases.
Then I started over.
Then I left the results hanging out on my web server.
This is mostly accurate, if ugly and bloated, for the phases I
managed to finish:
http://www.monocleofclarity.com/charts/