Clans at storyline tournament

Hi, I am planning on going to my local Nergal storyline tournament, but have never been to one before - I see that your crypt has to be 75% vampires of the same clan. Can you choose your 'clan' to be Caitiff for this purpose? What about Pander? I couldn't find anything about this on the WW website. Cheers in advance. PWillis

PWillis wrote: Can you choose your 'clan' to be Caitiff > for this purpose? What about Pander? Well, I'm pretty certain that there's a good reason why Caitiff and Pander have their own symbols. My answer to your question would be yes. :D I'd like to see either the Caitiff or Pander win a storyline, but I don't have the faintest idea how to get such a deck to work. Eric Gangrel follower

PWillis wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] "Caitiff" is not a clan, so no. Pander is OK. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Thx, Caitiff would've been preferable but I'll see what I can do with the Pander.

I've only been to two tournaments before and one of those was limited rather than constructed, so I would really appreciate any comments on the deck that more experienced players may have. "T3h D3mons33d 3lit3" (so named after the Sabbat expansion Computer Hacking flavour text) Crypt (groups 2 and 3): 75% Pander: Lena Rowe (3 - obf) Mitchell, the Headhunter (2) Gillian Krader (2) Christine Boscacci (2) March Halcyon (1) Angela Decker (1) Basil (1 - obf) Huang, Blood Cultist (1) Feo Ramos (1) 25% Caitiff: Antoinette DuChamp (1) Julius (1) Franciscus (1) Library (90 cards) Actions: 20 Computer Hacking Action Modifiers: 4 Faceless Night 10 Swallowed by the Night 10 Cloak the Gathering Combat: 5 Fake Out 5 Dodge 5 Behind You! Equipment: 5 Leather Jacket 3 Incriminating Videotape (not sure about these) 6 Laptop Computer Retainers: 1 J.S. Simmons Esq. 1 Tasha Morgan Masters: 1 The Barrens 8 Obfuscate (perhaps not enough?) 2 Information Highway 1 The Parthenon 2 Heidelburg Castle, Germany (to double up laptop/videotape) I know it's probably not the most original deck in the world, but I would be grateful for thoughts. PWillis

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 PWillis wrote: > I've only been to two tournaments before and one of those was limited > rather than constructed, so I would really appreciate any comments on > the deck that more experienced players may have. You probably don't actually want comments. You would prefer suggestions. Most of the comments you hear will be of the "aw, not this shit again" flavor; take them as you will. > Crypt (groups 2 and 3): > 75% Pander: > Lena Rowe (3 - obf) > Mitchell, the Headhunter (2) > Gillian Krader (2) > Christine Boscacci (2) > March Halcyon (1) > Angela Decker (1) > Basil (1 - obf) > Huang, Blood Cultist (1) > Feo Ramos (1) People are gonna pay to keep him tapped. Maybe someone else? > 25% Caitiff: > Antoinette DuChamp (1) > Julius (1) Not Julius. You need to keep your guys; they will probably visit Mr. Torpor Land quite often, and one of your 2-caps can always rescue him. You have a choice of: Angela Decker (1); Huang, Blood Cultist (1); Basil (1); Lisa Noble (1); Sandra White (1); Julius (1); Antoinette DuChamp (1); Nedal, The Careless (1); Feo Ramos (1); Olga Triminov (1); March Halcyon (1); Eddie Gaines (1); Franciscus (1); Royce (1) ...Some of these are even Pander (Royce). > Franciscus (1) > > Library (90 cards) 60 cards. _maybe_ 70. > Actions: > 20 Computer Hacking > > Action Modifiers: > 4 Faceless Night > 10 Swallowed by the Night > 10 Cloak the Gathering This is sort of a painful way to go. > Combat: > 5 Fake Out > 5 Dodge > 5 Behind You! Behind You! is only relevant if you happen to get superior OBF on a guy. Since you should get your whole crypt out, why bother? Some more Fake Out and Dodge are fine here. If you want to be stylish and clever, 5x Lucky Blow is actually pretty good. > Equipment: > 5 Leather Jacket > 3 Incriminating Videotape (not sure about these) > 6 Laptop Computer Remove 9 non-bleeding actions. Leather Jackets are awful good though, so even though they bug me a bit, leave 'em in. > Retainers: > 1 J.S. Simmons Esq. > 1 Tasha Morgan Remove 2 non-bleeding actions. > Masters: > 1 The Barrens > 8 Obfuscate (perhaps not enough?) Remove 8x Obfuscate and 20x OBF action modifiers. Add one Powerbase: Montreal. > 2 Information Highway 3 more of these. > 1 The Parthenon - -1 Parthenon, you won't need it anymore. > 2 Heidelburg Castle, Germany (to double up laptop/videotape) Remove since you don't have those anymore. Add 6x Tribute to the Master. Someone who can block 8+ hunts will have been already blocking your 1-stealth bleeds anyway. You want to gain a lot of pool fast when you have to, and take off running forward fast when you have to. And now the point of this message: Everyone's seen this deck before, and most everyone has built it before. When you play this, understand that while it's still relatively effective, the game texture is going to take on a completely different aspect. After your second Hack drops, the table is actively going to come after you with Rushes, votes, everything out there. Players are going to be openly hostile to you and deride you verbally for playing this deck, and players are going to make deals to have you ousted, no matter where you are. If you win with it (and that's still a big 'if'), it's going to be because people were unable to get cross-table pressure on you in time to stop you from having your whole crypt out. Expect it to start on, oh, turn 2 or 3. Your initial prey is likely to completely ignore his own prey and focus entirely on screwing your game up. In other words, the deck is not likely to be a fun experience to play for you. If you still want to play it knowing this, well, go nuts. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDM/ZFtQZlu3o7QpERAnqRAJ9M6zcwo8x4w67fjxel2aQjuzi+OwCfasKH Qne/l7S+CA+9YsHPdOoQiu4= =6c7I -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

PWillis wrote: > Crypt (groups 2 and 3): > 75% Pander: > Lena Rowe (3 - obf) > Mitchell, the Headhunter (2) > Gillian Krader (2) > Christine Boscacci (2) > March Halcyon (1) > Angela Decker (1) > Basil (1 - obf) > Huang, Blood Cultist (1) > Feo Ramos (1) > 25% Caitiff: > Antoinette DuChamp (1) > Julius (1) > Franciscus (1) I might try and maximize Presence instead of Obfuscate (which I'll explain below), and for the extra three, use Antionette, Delihla Easton, and Fredrick the Weak. > Library (90 cards) > Actions: > 20 Computer Hacking Yeah. That. > Action Modifiers: > 4 Faceless Night > 10 Swallowed by the Night > 10 Cloak the Gathering I'm thinking there isn't enough actual obfusctae in the deck, and relying on skill cards often results in you getting killed. I'd probably go with skillless/Presence instead (as you can make the crypt to, like, half the guys have presence already) and use, say, cards that tap minions (Anarch Troublemaker, Misdirection, Mind Numb), a few bleed increasers (Aire of Elation), and maybe some Majesties. > Combat: > 5 Fake Out > 5 Dodge > 5 Behind You! See: Presence angle. > Equipment: > 5 Leather Jacket > 3 Incriminating Videotape (not sure about these) > 6 Laptop Computer Laptops aren't worth it. Turn them into hackings. Incriminating Video Tapes aren't worth it. Turn into hackings. > Retainers: > 1 J.S. Simmons Esq. > 1 Tasha Morgan Not worth it. It just gives your opponent's something special to block. > Masters: > 1 The Barrens > 8 Obfuscate (perhaps not enough?) > 2 Information Highway > 1 The Parthenon > 2 Heidelburg Castle, Germany (to double up laptop/videotape) If you are going with the Obfuscate angle, use 12 Obf cards. If you go with presence, 8 is probably enough. You want 4-5 Info Highways. 1 Parthenon is too fringe. You don't want Heidelburg, as you don't want to have equipment. You might actually want Gird Minions in here. > I know it's probably not the most original deck in the world, but I > would be grateful for thoughts. Well, to throw in where Derek left off--yeah, no one is going to like you if you play this deck. And it is probably not really going to actually do all that well. Generally, these decks (i.e. Caitif Computer Hacking) do a really good job of ousting their first prey (i.e., if they take a single action, it means you got a bad draw), but as soon as everyone at the table figures out what you are doing, they will all likely do everything in their power to stop you, even cross table (including Rushing your guys and hitting you with KRC vote damage), and you'll probably not get real far after that (especially as while you are relentlessly polowing under your prey, your grand prey has no pressure on him and he gets quite set up, and when you get to him, he is ready for you). I mean, like, sometimes they can be very effective, but most folks, especially at something like a goofy storyline event, are likely to be negatively disposed to someone playing such a deck. Not to say that you shouldn't if you really want to, but realize that it might make you very unpopular. -Peter

There are some nasty Gehenna events that I use on my caitiff/pander deck, such as Blood Weakens, Conquest of Humanity, The Slow Withering, Veil of Darkness and Wormwood, not to mention the always funny (but not necessarily useful) Fall of the Camarilla and Sabbat. Maybe you should take a look at these. Have fun Fabio Ciccone http://storylinesp.vai.la

Wow, I hadn't really expected that kind of response - thanks for the warnings. I must admit that I play a lot more Magic than I do Vampire (as I mentioned I've only played in 2 Vampire tournaments before, whereas the DCI database informs me that I have played 203 Magic tournaments :-/) so I guess I naturally think about duels and must have not really thought through the implications of a multiplayer game in a tournament setting. For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems due to being ganged up on. I thought the first prize of the Nergal deck was really cool, so just made up the most powerful deck I could think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out the wins later on in the game? I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough, although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat, suboptimal, ok it was really bad! I have managed to convince some friends to have some casual Vampire games on Sunday although there will be only 4 of us unfortunately, I will incorporate the suggestions and try out both the obfuscate-based and presence-based versions of the deck to see how it goes. But I think I'll take another deck along (I casually play Gangrel and/or Ravnos Trap-based decks often so maybe something along those lines) to the tournament and have a discussion with the judge before we start about the acceptability of playing the Pander deck. Thanks again for the help, PWillis

"PWillis" <pa...@willisworld.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:1127513814.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I > come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems > due to being ganged up on. I thought the first prize of the Nergal > deck was really cool, so just made up the most powerful deck I could > think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire > are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out > the wins later on in the game? The trouble is that the game really doesn't have a good answer to the straight ahead balls-out weeny bleed deck if it's built a certain way _except_ to gang up on it and cause it to be ousted. You may not have built quite that type of deck but your crypt at least looks a lot like one of them. There are a few decks that can crush that kind of a deck but for the most part, those decks aren't necessarily good decks in other ways so you won't often see them. Otherwise, you're looking at a few anti-weeny toolbox cards that may or may not get drawn early, if anyone at the table has even bothered to include any. So the players will gang up on you and usually (on average, in my experience) manage to oust you after you've made your first oust but before you can make your second. If so, your prey tends to die no matter what his strategy was or how well he did or didn't play. (And even if he survives, he will have lost so much pool that he'll be easy pickings for your predator after you're gone.) And your predator tends to get handed an easy victory point and six pool no matter what his strategy was and how well or poorly he may have played. In short, the game becomes a screwed up mess the outcome of which seems to have little to do with much more than who went before and after you than any question of skill or metagame decision-making. This is why people tend to get surly about it. > I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused > etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being > insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players > at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough, > although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat, > suboptimal, ok it was really bad! Hopefully, you will not run into people just being flat abusive or anything. As I said, they may get surly, but one would hope the most players would just patiently explain to you that it's frustrating to play in a game with such a deck and that gang-up tends to be a common response (at least where people have seen the deck before). Unsportsmanlship is illegal no matter what type of deck you bring and the tournament judge should enforce it. Fred

PWillis wrote: > For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I > come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems > due to being ganged up on. I thought the first prize of the Nergal > deck was really cool, so just made up the most powerful deck I could > think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire > are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out > the wins later on in the game? That depends. Often players make decks that can "lunge" which essentially means survive until the time is right to strike a killing blow. Plus, this is a multi-player game where people quite frequently consider "table balance" to be an important thing to maintain. Sometimes when one player gets a head of steam up, they are hard to stop. > I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused > etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being > insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players > at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough, > although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat, > suboptimal, ok it was really bad! I find most VTES players to be much more fun to be around than players of "that other game." I think in general we're an older crowd and have a sensibility that is a slightly different from the general gamer populace. But most importantly, it is a multi-player game where personalities and politics do matter, so you're bound to run into players who are more socially aware than stereotypical gamers. That said, you have delved squarely into cheese territory with the deck you built. Stealth bleed is a very effective strategy. Couple that with massive weenie power behind you and it just gets better. Storyline tournaments often feature players making their favorite clans do what they do best based on their disciplines. There's some emotional attachment for many folks, myself included, because the clans actually get some small reward if they win the event in the form of a future interesting card. Weenie Obfuscate Pander really don't do a whole lot to "raise the level" of the game, so you may encounter a lot of "Oh not this crap *AGAIN*" type responses. > I have managed to convince some friends to have some casual Vampire > games on Sunday although there will be only 4 of us unfortunately, I > will incorporate the suggestions and try out both the obfuscate-based > and presence-based versions of the deck to see how it goes. But I > think I'll take another deck along (I casually play Gangrel and/or > Ravnos Trap-based decks often so maybe something along those lines) to > the tournament and have a discussion with the judge before we start > about the acceptability of playing the Pander deck. Good luck in your event, and more importantly keeping your group together. VTES is a marvelous multi-faceted game. But the players are extremely important since you really need 4 or 5 to actually play. Keep them happy and you'll have lots of enjoyable games in the future. Jeff

In message <1127513814.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, PWillis <pa...@willisworld.fsnet.co.uk> writes: >For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I >come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems >due to being ganged up on. The player who looks like a disproportionate threat on a table will invoke the wrath of the table. For example, in days gone by, the old Anarch Revolt decks would get the whole table come after them. Weenie swarm bleed and weenie swarm vote (lots of Crusades/Praxis Seizures, some Presence, and a metric buttload of KRC) will get similar treatment, as will many "turbo" decks - decks which use Soul Gem and burning and repeating with a new copy of the vampire, or lots and lots of Freak Drive (or similar) to repeatedly untap and do other things. If it looks like you're going to sweep the table and not let anyone else get VPs out of it, most players will come after you. Some won't, because they're in a weak position. Some won't, because they think they might be able to snatch a quick VP, and then beat you in a show-down (getting them 3VP and the table win). But many players who need more time will come after you. Players who need to slow the table down to get their deck working will try to come after you, or bargain with others to come after you. Anyone who is in trouble who can offer another player on the table something tempting (e.g. pool from Parity Shifts, rushes on vampires you hate) *so long as they're still alive* will try to cut deals with someone to take you on. Also note that various decks - like weenie bleed/swarm bleed - will, as Derek notes, provoke particularly hostile reactions because they're boring. Arika-based decks will trigger similarly hostile reactions, because so many Arika-based decks have done really nasty things. The key to really, really successful play is to be the threat to the table (so you can get the Game Win) but not *look like* the threat. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 PWillis wrote: > tournaments :-/) so I guess I naturally think about duels and must have > not really thought through the implications of a multiplayer game in a > tournament setting. Yep. Five players at a table means that, even though you only have to look left for your VP, it's not quite as simple as "ignore everyone but my predator". > think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire > are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out > the wins later on in the game? Not necessarily. Some decks look threatening, and then end up having the counter to whatever everyone else happens to have played -- these decks will usually run over the table. No big surprise. But they can go "flop" later against other decks who happen to have the counter against THEM -- because there is no "one perfect deck type". Many times the winner is the person who can move forward at an average, yet consistent pace early on, and then accelerate later in the game when everyone's resources are starting to be stretched. > I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused > etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being > insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players Uh, you come from Magic tournaments and you are asking this? I've seen some massively poor sportsmanship from Magic players in my time, including throwing a chair about 10 feet. Assuming you've seen the same, I can safely say that you won't see ANYTHING as bad. People are not likely to spend their entire time cussing you out (although last time I played a variant of this deck, my prey DID actually comment something to the effect of "cheese deck" every time he spoke that game) or anything... but you are not gonna be greeted with sweetness and light, either. Most people are just going to quietly go about the business of evicting your deck from the table, and probably not make much light conversation while doing it. > at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough, > although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat, > suboptimal, ok it was really bad! It's amazing how much easier it is to be nice to a player whose deck needs help from the table to win. > I have managed to convince some friends to have some casual Vampire > games on Sunday although there will be only 4 of us unfortunately, I > will incorporate the suggestions and try out both the obfuscate-based > and presence-based versions of the deck to see how it goes. But I Suggest trying out the NO-discipline version of the deck as well, as that is typically one of the strongest. > Ravnos Trap-based decks often so maybe something along those lines) to > the tournament and have a discussion with the judge before we start > about the acceptability of playing the Pander deck. Oh, don't get me wrong. It's perfectly acceptable from the sense of "are you here to win? Yes? Pander is a clan? Yes?" And there you go. But you can't lose sight of the fact that by bringing that deck, you claim you're there to win, not have fun, and will be treated accordingly. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDNJDatQZlu3o7QpERAmodAJ4/81ABTF/r5it4HOT7X0S/EPwXnwCfdvad ACrBq9cm4i5aVfWnV0t3w2U= =0dku -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

PWillis wrote: > I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused > etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being > insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? No one is gonna, like, beat you up or anything, but certainly in a storyline event which most folks go to for giggles and entertainement, that kind of Caitiff computer hacking deck is going to elicit groans and concentrated table focus. It is kind of like sitting down for a game of Magic with a deck of, like, 20 Land and 40 direct damage cards or whatever--it might win, it might not win, but most folks will be like "Umm, yeah, ok. Lightning bolt me again please?" > The players > at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough, > although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat, > suboptimal, ok it was really bad! Oh, people are certainly friendly. But again, given the general view of storyline events, people tend to not play real focused decks, and that is a real focused deck. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot, easily spilled liquids to naked people." -Brittni Meil

"Grey Wanderer" <gre...@gmail.com> writes: > I'd like to see either the Caitiff or Pander win a storyline, but I > don't have the faintest idea how to get such a deck to work. Hint: http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/clan-twd.htm (Tournament winning deck archive, sorted by clan) Hint2: Legacy of Pander Hint3: the vast majority of them are weenies -- hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience, iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey