Feedback Round 2

Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and then ask for opinions from there. 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo card the most: Lucita Vykos Fatima Hesha Victoria Ash Jan Pieterzoon Theo Bell One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative to distribution of the card. 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the V:TES fan base more). There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as fully playable as others. My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might accomplish both at once. Concerns are: 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES either. 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they about?) This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. Comments folks? 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game with, then I'll change my tune here. Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. Thanks Steve Wieck White Wolf

> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell OK OK this is a hard one. Each is cool in his/her own way, but I will have go with an independent clan because they need vamps the most. So humm....... Hesha!! He is the personification of COOL. > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. If Inquest has one of these cards in it, I will buy 4 minimum! I will need 4 for the table sweeping deck that I will make ; ) > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. Perfect!! I could not ask for more. The Assamite & Giovanni need the most help, and could be two of the best (read easiest to sale) clans. Add to that Lasombra or Tzimisce and then a Cam clan and you have a great start to the future of Jyhad (V:TES). > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. This is the way to go. Reprint the good standard cards for each clan (AH & DS) and then you only need to add a couple of vamps and some round-out cards per clan (nec & qui etc..) and you have very playable decks. As long as there are enough new cards, I for one will be very happy. > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. I agree. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? I think so. The Independent clans have the most stylized play, because each has a unique discipline and skill set. Where as a lot of Cam/Sab clans share two disciplines or similar strategies. i.e. vote bleed etc.. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. I like this idea also. Change is good and cross over is even better. Make the Assamite card as you noted, and make the Ravnos card bad but not disabling. How about a vote: burn a Ravnos under 6 cap. This would see very limited play (too specific) but gets the point across. Or some nasty Master card only usable once. etc... > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. You need to generate noise about the game first. Then bring out the main set. Interest then follow through. So please release the expansion first then Sabbat. You humble servant Conor The VKEN Prince of Raleigh, NC

Vykos, he is the man (well, sort of...). For your other question, I just came back in the Jyhad 2 weeks ago (finding old ans dusty minions in my cave....) Regards Mathieu

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:07:58 -0500, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> said: Steve> Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future Steve> direction. Let me bring a little focus to the discussion based Steve> on the accumulated feedback and then ask for opinions from Steve> there. First off, kudos to you for taking an active role in this. It's appreciated ;) Steve> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as Steve> soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on Steve> the promo card the most: Steve> Lucita Steve> Vykos Steve> Fatima Steve> Hesha Steve> Victoria Ash Steve> Jan Pieterzoon Steve> Theo Bell Dare I say... "cool!" :) Ok, my vote goes to Lucita, no question. Steve> We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it Steve> out as this is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels Steve> like they could not get the card through an Inquest copy, Steve> complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative to distribution Steve> of the card. Looks like I'll be buying a lot of copies of a certain Inquest... Steve> 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), Steve> I'm inclined right now to look at first releasing Steve> pre-constructed decks based on the 4 independent clans (Setite, Steve> Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these (Assamite & Steve> Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. ... Steve> My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and Steve> that new cards for the independents seem to be most in demand Steve> by you veterans. This might accomplish both at once. Sounds like a plan. As long as there are new useful cards, us "veterans" will be happy, and (like you say) pre-constructed decks would be ideal for bringing in new players. Steve> Concerns are: Steve> 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck Steve> would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Definitely. In addition to the fact that you can tweak deck focus with the new cards, each clan has many different base strategies (in addition to lots of really weird ones, but let's skip those here :). Settite: stealth / presence-bleed (with some voting thrown in?) Assamite: kill, kill, kill :) (i.e. a rush deck) Giovanni: potence combat, with some light stealth/intercept and maybe some cool (new?) allies Ravnos: hmmm, lots of options here. Ravnos make nasty combat decks, or maybe you could go for a "steal everything that moves and promote chaos" approach, which might suit the game world best. One suggestion: get some people who have played the game a lot (i.e. from this newgroup, possibly) to help design and play-test the decks. The constructed decks should all be equal in power, more or less, and should play well. This needs a bit of playtesting to accomplish, but I would imagine that getting playtesters would not be a problem. (and yes, I volunteer is some Finnish playtest help is required *grin*). Steve> 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our Steve> WOD storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed Steve> from the curse (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) Steve> but should also involve the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, Steve> which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I Steve> don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES either. The tie-in idea is good, since it both introduces VTES players to WoD, and the other way around. For the Assamites, probably the best way to go would be a master card / votes (?) that would free them from the curse. Not much serious game effect, but good for the storyline. Ravnos... hmmm, killing them all would sort of hinder the VTES clan. But in WoD, aren't there still quite a number of Ravnos left alive? You could put out a card that explains that the Ravnos in VTES are some of the only ones left, with some (card) game effects to go along with it. And of course you could put out a clan hoser card, but I'm not too wild about those, personally. What about the Tremere-AT? They present an even worse problem in this regard... Of course, you could up the stakes by making them a high-risk clan to play. In other words, give them some cool and powerful cards, but also put out a major clan hoser (or two) that would *really* ruin their day. Maybe not "burn all Tremere-AT", but perhaps "burn all Tremere-AT with capacity over 4" (or something like that). Dunno. Steve> From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely Steve> recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla Steve> clans or even Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which Steve> aren't the strongest in recognition/popularity isn't the Steve> brightest marketing move we could make. Also, the Setite and Steve> Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in terse Steve> marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the Steve> assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what Steve> are they about?) That is a point... of course, you could tie it in with the changes in WoD, with the independent clans "crawling out of the woodwork" now that both the Sabbat and Camarilla are in an unstable state. Steve> This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Steve> Giovanni, and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla Steve> clan. Then pick up Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out Steve> in a later expansion. That could work, also. Hmmm, either the Lasombra or the Tzim would work, and then one clan from the Camarilla. Ventrue would be the obvious choice, especially against the Lasombra, but are Ventrue and Lasombra too similiar? Maybe the Tzim vs. the Tremere would give more interest factor and also be believable in the game world sense. Steve> Comments folks? See above :) Steve> 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release Steve> after the expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because Steve> I think pre-cons are the way to go to get more people into the Steve> game the easiest and that's what's needed most. However, Sabbat Steve> would essentially be a reprint so it can be done faster and Steve> potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people feel Steve> that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the Steve> game with, then I'll change my tune here. Well, the Sabbat set is in huge demand all over, and works well as a standalone set. However, I think that introducing new cards to the game fast is vital to raising interest for the game (in addition to advertising in magazines and on the WW web site, of course). I would personally be happy with either choice. Steve> Thanks Steve> Steve Wieck Steve> White Wolf //Petri, VKEN Prince of Helsinki

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. Thanks for the interest, In short: Promo card in inquest is good. I vote for Ms. Ash. Pre-con decks- Great idea. 4 best clan to work with: Giovanni, Assamites, Brujah, Nosferatu. Go for really combat oriented decks that play very fast. all those clans could do with cards, and the Lasombra have skills too similar to the Giovanni to be printeed at the same time. If the Sabbat gets a reprint, then doing a precon deck with a sabbat clan may not be so great. Tie ins with WoD: Good. Wiping out the Ravnos? How about a Tremere master card that destroys all ravnos at the start of the following turn as long as there are X tremere in play. Puts the fear into the Ravnos players, makes Clan Impersonation good, makes the Ravnos Pro-active in destroying Tremere for that turn and should make for a fun game. For the next 4 pre-cons choose Tremere, Ravnos, Settites and Malvavians for a different environment from the first decks. Maybe? If the Sabbat gets reprinted exactly as seen, then the sabbat clans don't need new-card help for a while. cheers, matt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Steve Wieck wrote: > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: Is there an easy way for those of us who don't know that many of the characters to find out easily who and what they are? > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... Oh, there we go.... > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. This is good. However, the current card sets do *not* allow a good, say, Ravnos deck to be built. There need to be more cards before some of the vampires are playable - especially the Ravnos and the Giovanni. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? To the best of my knowledge, no, this promise was never made. >If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). What makes the card designs expensive? R&D or artwork? If the former, I don't think that would be a problem if you, say, roped LSJ and three or four other major names (with Non-Disclosure contracts) to do it for you - various names have been bandied around by others, myself included, but LSJ is the key, of course. With artwork, would it be possible to use something that WW already uses - like, say, using artwork from clan books or V:tM? Although, a lot of it is in Black and White, save for the covers. > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. How many is "enough"? > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Unique, not necessarily. Strategies, yes. The Setites are easiest. They have stealth and bleed (obfuscate and presence), bleed and vote (obfuscate and presence) or corruption based decks (using Temptation, Corruption, Form of Corruption to steal vampires). The Giovanni can *try* bruise and bleed - with Dominate/Potence. If you want to show off Necromancy, there are a few cards (Spiritual Intervention, Spectral Divination) which are bog-standard usable. Jar the Soul is possible in a bleed deck, too. There aren't many other strategies they can try straight off, and a few new cards for Necromancy and the Giovanni would be good. The Ravnos are, well, difficult. Very difficult. You need to pick a theme for them and then try and expand them. They can do intercept (Animalism and bits of chimerstry) and a little combat, but nothing really well. The Assamites are good in combat, but they need beefing up. You've seen all the suggestions - give them something to make Contracts worthwhile, let them take on Strike: Combat Ends, give them some pool gain for burning vampires, make them harder in combat, and so on - but base something around combat, and beef it up with new cards, and you'll do fine. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. Perhaps, just a few flavour cards to tie it in. Maybe, "Ravnos Cull" (with cool name) which makes them all Caitiff. Hmm... I can see a deck abusing that with Tradition Upheld though (which burns a Caitiff). Perhaps, have a card which progressively weakens them in the game, but doesn't just burn them outright. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) Setites: Manipulative Corrupters. Ravnos: Pants and can't make a deck out of them. Hmmm.. bad move. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. (Setites are in the strongest, if not strong, position of all the Independents anyway.) Well, if you are going to add new cards too: Assamite, Giovanni, Tzimisce, Tremere The new vampires (hopefully) for the Giovanni would make a Dom/Pot deck with the Lasombra easier - not perfect, but easier. Also, give the Tremere new cards to make them playable, and you'll do well, too. The Tzimisce tend to find, IME, Vicissitude harder to use than the Lasombra do Obtenebration. If you were to then do a second set of these, I'd say: Ravnos, Setites, Lasombra If you want to do a fourth clan, say, the Malkavian Antitribu. With regards the Sabbat reprint, I agree that doing it afterwards would be best. -- James Coupe

> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell This is kinda hard. Victoria is out because there was Mariana Gilbert as Promo. Either Lucita, Vykos, Fatima or Hesha I'd say. My personal favourite would be Lucita, though. :) Why not doing each of the vamps from the novels? One at a time, give them out with the novels! > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. Hm, Inquest is hard to get hold on here in Vienna, is the situation different in other European countries? Why not send the Promo cards along with the regular shipments to the retailers who sell White-Wolf products? Whenever a customer buys a White Wolf item, they get a Promo card along. :) I wouldn't mind sending in a self-adressed envelope with an international post-office return voucher (don't know how it's called, you know what I mean). > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. Do you mean that the cards will be available in boosters, too, or only in pre-constructed decks? For camarilla I'd take Tremere or Toreador, Sabbat clearly either Lasombra or Tzimisce. :) > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? No problem for though. :) If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). How large do you intend this set to be? Will there be all disciplines used by the intended clans in the set? Or only the clan-specific (i.e. Nec, Qui, Vic/Obt) ones? Will the old cards be only in the pre-constructed decks or in the boosters also? > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. Good. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. I really hope so. :) However, if veterans have to buy a set where cards are in it which they own *en masse* (dom, obf, etc.) they might be a *bit* reluctant to buy... IMO, it depends on the method of packaging and how many new cards there would be. If the boosters conained only new cards, well, ok. It would be good to have cards from DS, AH, Sabbat in for dom, pot, cel, etc. too. Another incentive... ;) > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. Well, doing changes via cards is definitely the way to go. For the Ravnos, a card like it was done for the !Brujah in Sabbat that burns a Ravnos would be ok. It should be dependent on the capacity of the Ravnos, however... > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? Well, you might be right. I'm happy with the things you proposed so far. > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. Absolutely right. I would have started with Camarilla, though, but it's definitely good that way. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. You'd have to overhaul Sabbat the same way as the Camarilla set. Sabbat needs new packaging and errata. And even then I don't think many new players would try it, cause they have in their heads that it's an expansion for VTES. Here in our group, the veteran players have tons of Sabbat, they wouldn't be likely to buy heavy into it. > > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > Thanks > Steve Wieck > White Wolf Thanks again for giving us the chance to mouth our opinions. :) Carl [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve Wieck wrote: > > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell I guess, Lucita or Sacha, for kewlness' sake. > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... > > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. What is Inquest ? Some magazine ? I didn't see the other promo cards in Paris, were they released that way too ? It would be nice if out-of-America players could get their grubby little hands on such cards. Advice, anybody ? > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). Fine with me. > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. *salivates* > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. My vote would be for Masters/individual cards doing things like that (Ur-Shulgi Awakening, Week of Nightmares, Beijing Nuke...). Not for squishing the Ravnos or !Tremere, or making all Assamites curse-free, thus squishing the Contract mechanism, which has some nice potential IMHO. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) I'm surprised. This may be true for outsiders (no VtES, no VtM types). Do you mean among VtM players it's the same ? Any way, any short description of any Clan is going to be simplistic (not that it's a bad thing). If you go with 'Middle-East Assassins' and 'Godfather Necromancers', why not with 'Gypsy Illusionist' and 'Cultist Corrupter' ? I'd say that the need in these Clans is great, and that they should be taken care of in such an expansion. If it is viable (commercially), add a Cammy and a Sabbat clan as well (or 2 decks with 2 mixed Clans, because Sects are about Clans working together: Ventrue/something else and Tzimisce/Lasombra for example) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. My only fear is that the Independants will get different treatments,causing two of them to remain underusable. > Comments folks? > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. I agree with the idea that attracting new blood _and_ reviving old players at the same time is the best way to go. If a Sabbat reprint comes after a pre-con expansion, it should (IMHO) be soon enough after, so as to fan beginners' interest before it dwindles. By that time, they'll probably have played with 'old timers' and should be salivating for some of the older cards. > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > Thanks > Steve Wieck > White Wolf Thanks for bringing us the news so often! Mat

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000 mgre...@my-deja.com wrote: > Tie ins with WoD: Good. Wiping out the Ravnos? How about a Tremere > master card that destroys all ravnos at the start of the following turn > as long as there are X tremere in play. Erk! Most people I know disliked the outright burning of Out of Control. I would severely dislike seeing such a card. However, a more mild card, say a beefed up Giovanni Discrimination, might be an option. -- James Coupe

> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > Lucita This would be my vote. The Lasombra could use another vamp and Lucita is, well, incredible. :) > Fatima This would be my 2nd choice. > Hesha 3rd option.... > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell We definitely do not need anymore Toreador, Ventrue or Brujah. There have been way too many released so far. > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... I have been reading them religiously. :P > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. This sounds like an awesome idea! > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. I'm inclined to say that these decks should consist of the former, but for reasons you cite below, in the end, it may be better for the first release to consist of the latter. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). Why would you be unable to recycle them? > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. As long as there are new cards involved, you will definitely be getting wads and wads of my money. :) > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Well, they play differently in that the disciplines available to each are different and as such, the actions they perform would be different. However, the core basic strategies would be the same: combat, politics or bleed. Assamites would definitely be combat oriented with Quietus and Celerity being their primary disciplines. Hopefully, either would introduce a new card that could combat Strike: Combat Ends as that mechanic is the biggest bane to Assamites. Giovanni could be oriented towards any of the 3, but probably more towards combat/bleed. Perhaps there could be different flavors of pre- constructed decks? As for the 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam, my suggestion would be to make them Lasombra and (Tremere or Nosferatu). While you can build successful decks around these clans, they are the weaker clans and could definitely use some help. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) This would definitely be the preferred method as it would make it so that any newly introduced Assamites would not have a significant advantage to those already released. > but should also involve the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which > makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I don't intend > to axe them from the future of V:TES either. This is really good to hear. The Ravnos have so much potential but due to the significant cost of their cards and the poor selection of vamps, they are very difficult to build a deck around. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > Comments folks? This sounds like a really good idea. Again, my preference would be to go with the 4 independant clans, but you are almost certainly correct that the above would have greater appeal and draw more new players. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. A Sabbat re-release would be a major boon to the game (pardon the pun), but I'm not sure that it would be better than the pre-cons to introduce people to the game. An influx of Sabbat would keep alot of the veterans happy and would make it so that we could do Sabbat sealed deck tournaments (which could in turn introduce many new players to the game), but given the choice, I think the pre-cons should come first. Sorrow -Prince of New Orleans --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000 carlos_...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hm, Inquest is hard to get hold on here in Vienna, is the situation > different in other European countries? Hard to get at all, not especially. But difficult to guarantee getting in large quantities (because, say, 5 Jyhad players from one area are all going to want to get a copy), I find, yes. Most places only buy a couple of copies of any magazine like that, IME. > Why not send the Promo cards along with the regular shipments to the > retailers who sell White-Wolf products? Whenever a customer buys a White > Wolf item, they get a Promo card along. :) It can be seen as a White Wolf cash cow, however. "If I have to buy a White Wolf product, that's another 8 quid they're getting from me! Those capitalist b*st*rds! And I don't even get to register my interest for V:TES - they might think I'm only buying the product for the product, and not for the card! Arrogant swines! Who do they think they are, taking my money like this?" (And so on, ad infinitum. Players with little money and little interest in V:tM/whatever might not take kindly to it.) > I wouldn't mind sending in a self-adressed envelope with an > international post-office return voucher (don't know how it's called, > you know what I mean). > International Reply Coupons used to be the standard (I heard something about them being replaced, though). However, one option would be to delegate the posting of cards to a trusted third party who was willing to give up their time to do it. That way, WW only have to post a few hundred promos to one person, rather than 1 to a few hundred people. > Do you mean that the cards will be available in boosters, too, or only > in pre-constructed decks? Perhaps, doing them in the Pre-constructed to start with only, but if they do a set of boosters later, put them in there too. An option would, of course, be preconstructed decks with slight randomness, so that you don't get all the Ravnos cards in one deck. More annoying for the players, perhaps, but then it does generate sales. > How large do you intend this set to be? Will there be all disciplines > used by the intended clans in the set? Or only the clan-specific (i.e. > Nec, Qui, Vic/Obt) ones? If you have the cards only in preconstructed boosters, you can have a set of cards necessary for each in each one - so the Assamites get their Disguised Weapons, Bum's Rushes, Blur and Blood Agony, but the Setites get Lost in Crowds, Legal Manipulations and Form of the Serpent. (Or whatever cards.) > Absolutely right. I would have started with Camarilla, though, but it's > definitely good that way. With the Camarilla, of course, whilst they're still hard to get in some places, there is a *lot* of Jyhad out there. Unless you start making fairly hefty changes, a lot of players don't need to buy new cards. And if you want new players, that's a *very* hefty investment in advertising and publicising it by White Wolf needed. Sabbat is hard to get everywhere. It can be pressed just as hard as the Camarilla set could be (for advertising it) but the old players can buy it also, because they need more of the cards. > You'd have to overhaul Sabbat the same way as the Camarilla set. Sabbat > needs new packaging and errata. And even then I don't think many new > players would try it, cause they have in their heads that it's an > expansion for VTES. If you are going for new players, and you're promoting it, such things can be got round. > Here in our group, the veteran players have tons of Sabbat, they > wouldn't be likely to buy heavy into it. > But they would buy heavily into cards they already got from Jyhad/V:TES? How little Jyhad/V:TES do you have? It sounds like not very much. It's generally the case, in most other places from the impression I get on here, that the rest of the world is mostly the other way round. -- James Coupe

> > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > > card the most: > Is there an easy way for those of us who don't know that many of the > characters to find out easily who and what they are? http://www.white-wolf.com/clannovels The above link contains the character stats of those primary characters that have so far been introduced. I believe it contains many on the list that Steve presented. Sorrow -Prince of New Orleans --- I told the priest - don't count on any second coming. God got his ass kicked the first time he came down here slumming. He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us. No, I don't wonder why, I wonder what he thought it would get us -- Concrete Blonde

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: Vote ?? Not a V:tM player. > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this > is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap > alternative to distribution of the card. Mail to Princes multiple copies? > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm Whatever, just make each deck them killable by 2 of the other constructed decks. So if you have stealth bleed, you need an intercept deck (or bloat) and a rush deck. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain > expansions would never be reprinted? If its really a problem, make it a "different" copy. eg artwork and set symbol, I dont care. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? See above. Remember Stealth, Bleed, Bloat, Horde, Rush, Intercept, and Vote. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. Well if there going, get rid of them. What about Gangrel? no more Archon/Toast deck <sniff> (not if they cant call praxis X and then archon! The vote deck with combat defense, starting always a problem). Don't print clans that won't make future expansions. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Comments folks? No silly marketing moves, we'ld like another one next year. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's > what's needed most. Ok, there are VtES boosters only onsale in Canberra. There really needs to be standalone (eg preconstructed, to get newbies) and an expansion/s that build on the preconstructed decks. And the less execption to the rules cards in these the better. (it just confuses) So either best of Sabbat/AH/DS "expansion" if you want the independant clans as preconstructed. Or less independant clans (eg only Sabbat and Camarilla Preconstructed) and then just reprint Sabbat. I vote the independant clans could wait a while. How about tournament winning decks? -- die netzaddresse die Michael F. Tomkins ich vorher gab war falsch. m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au die addresse hier University of Canberra, Australia. ist die richtige... http://blitzen.canberra.edu.au/~bahkyp/

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Petri Wessman wrote: > Ravnos: hmmm, lots of options here. Ravnos make nasty combat decks, or > maybe you could go for a "steal everything that moves and promote > chaos" approach, which might suit the game world best. One problem with this. None of the Giovanni, Assamites, Setites or whatever, are particularly equipment based. The steal everything that moves would be difficult, if you try and play a demo of it at a tournament, and the guy with the Ravnos deck gets nothing to do. > Ravnos... hmmm, killing them all would sort of hinder the VTES > clan. But in WoD, aren't there still quite a number of Ravnos left > alive? You could put out a card that explains that the Ravnos in VTES > are some of the only ones left, with some (card) game effects to go > along with it. And of course you could put out a clan hoser card, but > I'm not too wild about those, personally. Well, this effectively would be the Ravnos Clan hoser. and a major one at that. > > What about the Tremere-AT? They present an even worse problem in this > regard... > Well, if they're not doing much with the Sabbat for a while (as it would appear), then they have plenty of time to think about it! :) > Of course, you could up the stakes by making them a high-risk clan to > play. In other words, give them some cool and powerful cards, but also > put out a major clan hoser (or two) that would *really* ruin their > day. Maybe not "burn all Tremere-AT", but perhaps "burn all Tremere-AT > with capacity over 4" (or something like that). Dunno. Way, *way*, WAY too powerful! There is not other card in the game that does *anything* like that level of power. I do not want to see Jester's Cap, Armageddon etc. brought over from Magic when they hand V:TES back to White Wolf! *grin* > That could work, also. Hmmm, either the Lasombra or the Tzim would > work, and then one clan from the Camarilla. Ventrue would be the > obvious choice, especially against the Lasombra, but are Ventrue and > Lasombra too similiar? If we're getting new cards as well, the Ventrue don't need much help. They bleed, they vote, they defend in combat. They do pretty well. > Maybe the Tzim vs. the Tremere would give more > interest factor and also be believable in the game world sense. Sounds like an excellent suggestion, thematically. They were the two clans I suggested myself - Vicissitude and Thaumaturgy being harder to play than Obtenebration, IME. -- James Coupe

Steve Wieck wrote: > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > Vykos > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. How many cards per magazine? I would hate to have to buy 10 mags to get 10 cards. How about a set of 4? > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > thing I would rather see the Settites and Ravnos. These two need the extra highlighting (and clan cards) to make work. > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the This is fine. Will cards be reprinted witht he correct errata/corrections etc? It would be nice. > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > Thanks > Steve Wieck > White Wolf Raille

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Raille wrote: > I would rather see the Settites and Ravnos. These two need the extra > highlighting (and clan cards) to make work. Unfortunately, I would rather see cards that will sell, when push comes to shove. If WW cannot sell cards, they cannot support V:TES. :( However, if Ravnos and Setites could sell, I would see those in preference to the other clans, yes. > This is fine. Will cards be reprinted witht he correct > errata/corrections etc? It would be nice. I hope they do. -- James Coupe

rai...@mich.com wrote: > How many cards per magazine? I would hate to have to buy 10 mags > to get 10 cards. How about a set of 4? Dave, do you _really_ need 10 copies of the same vampire? > I would rather see the Settites and Ravnos. These two need the extra > highlighting (and clan cards) to make work. Don't listen to him. He only wants more Setite cards because that's the only clan he builds decks out of. *grin* > Raille Hey! Aren't you one of those subversive NJL guys? Noal McDonald National Jyhad League -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: Fatima- I would love to see this angel of death > > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? I love it. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. S A two-pronged attack, a sound marketing strategy. Excellent idea. I favor the giovanni and the assamites as well for preconstucted decks. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

> Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell A signature character from an independent clan or sabbat would be more welcomed then a Brujah, Toreador, or Ventrue. If I had to pick: Hesha. No, wait... okay, Hesha. > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. I would probably focus on the Independents and Sabbat. These need the most help. So either the 4 Indys, or the Giovanni, Assamites, Tzimisce, and Lasombra. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Sure they do. Setites are good s+b and can steal other players cards. Assamites offer combat. The Giovanni ability to ressurect already played cards is unique and they offer combat as well. Ravnos would be combat effective if some of the weakness were overcome. Voting might be an issue, as only the Followers of Set have vote-friendly presence. Lasombra offer votes and fisticuffs. Tzimisce are pretty tough... It is pretty diverse, as you can see... leans more to combat, though... > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. I guess a master card that frees the assamites to diablerize would be pretty cool. Ravnos Awakening would be interesting as well... How'z about a card based on Thee Cathayans? > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) What!?!? The Followers of Set not popular! Blasphemy! Actually, I am pretty suprised by that. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. As above, either the 4 Indys or the Assamites, Giovanni, Lasombra or Tzimisce. The Cammy clans are already so well developed. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. Hmm... the Sabbat is a good set, isn't it? If the Sabbat is popular, as you say, this could attract new players. You already know the current players want these cards. I guess if you re-released the set, add some more vampires for each clan... or change some of the vampires.

"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> writes: >1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as >soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo >card the most: Don't know them, but my suggestion would be to do one from the suggested preconstructed deck clans.. eventually one from each. >One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires >are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... Maybe if the cards were there to begin with.. >We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is >a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the >card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative >to distribution of the card. Personally I hate promos that are in gaming mags - I don't want to buy the mags - but as it would be good advertisement, I'm all for it in this case. As an alternative distribution method, I'd suggest including promo cards in the pre-constructed decks. >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. Excellent. >There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as >fully playable as others. Excellent. >My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards >for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might >accomplish both at once. That is my feeling too. >Concerns are: >1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck >would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Yes, especially if the new cards further support it. Assamites Contract oriented rush decks - needs a new card to circumvent S:CE and another to gain something when contract fullfilled, maybe pool, blood and/or disciplines - could be a re-write of Contract itself. Giovanni Necromancy needs a lot of work.. but yes, Giovanni already have access to ash heap.. at the moment I'd go for bruise bleed. Ravnos Sensory deprivation deck! Setites Corrupt and stealth bleed.. corrupting votes? >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse >(perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either. Maybe a master card playable once / game that requires all controllers of Ravnos to pay pool for each Ravnos ie hide them from whatever the killer is (or let them burn).. what was it and what did it do? Did the survivors have something in common? >3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely >recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even >Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in >recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. >Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in >terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the >assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they >about?) Corrupters and ..Thieves? > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, >and then either Lasombra or Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up >Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. Lasombra bruise-vote deck would be in line with WoD, I think. ..I'd rather see a Tzimi intercept combat.. but are they fast enough? For Camarilla.. how 'bout Gangrel and them leaving Camarilla - are they independet now? Did they get something out of it? >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game >with, then I'll change my tune here. Better start with the pre-construct expansion rather than Sabbat. Since there is also a camarilla clan to be included, it should cover some of that well known aspect. Also, the hardest thing to do in the beginning, is a good deck. Pre-con gets around that. If you did Sabbat pre-con, then that would be okay, but you'd lose the benefits as well. When you do the Sabbat re-release, I'd also suggest making it a bit more easier to collect. I'd go for clan specific starters, but any starters would be a step in the right direction.. I don't know how easy changing rarities is, but that would be ideal.. - Ron -

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. > Let me bring a little focus to the discussion based on the > accumulated feedback and then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this > out as soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see > on the promo > card the most: I'll vote for Vykos > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out > as this is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like > they could not get the card through an Inquest copy, complain > now and/or offer a cheap alternative to distribution of the card. Offering the promo cards at the larger gaming conventions and or tournament support would be nice as well. > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), > I'm inclined right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed > decks based on the 4 independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, > Ravnos) or 2 of these (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam > clan along with boosters. I'd prefer to see 4 pre-con if this is the case, since the game really doesn't shine until you have 4 or more players. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain > expansions would never be reprinted? Sounds good, cycling good cards from older expansions - into newer sets is not reprinting an expansion. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con > deck would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES > play? Yes > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the > curse (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should > also involve the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a > Ravnos deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe > them from the future of V:TES either. Something like Vicissitude Poisoning could be done for the Ravnos. This would fall under the catagory of clan hoser. Joe Churchill V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter [ quoted text not captured ]

I'm sooo excited I'm about to bust! Wondered why Conor was calling me so late last night. Must be important ... Yep - It was! > 1. Promo Vamp Vote: > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell All of the signature charaters are WAY cool. I have to give my vote to one of the vamps in a clan that need some help so that narrows it down to Lucita, Vykos, Hesha, and Fatima. My heart wants me to pick Fatima to help the Assamites but I am going to swallow my pride and pick Hesha. The main reason is that he should translate into a well rounded mid-ranged capacity (6 or 7) vampire for the Setites - exactly what the clan needs. In time I hope that all 13 signature characters are printed. I would love to see the ones (other Independent characters) that are not voted on to be the promo vamp be included within the preconstructs and the remaining either be included in another set or as more promos. > > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... I'll put my plug here as well. Read 'em and learn the characters. I think we will be seeing the big boys (girls and monsters) more and more in the future. The series is a load of fun. Headed out today at lunch to get my copy of Ravnos. :) > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. Personally I would love to see the 4 Independents get their chance but I completely understand that some of them are not the most marketable (when compaired to others) and you might need to do a split. Of the 4 Independent clans - the Assamites and the Giovanni need the most help so please include them. These clans also fit in with the marketing statement you made later in your post. Of the two main Sabbat clans (Lasombra and Tzimisce) I would be happy with either and overjoyed if we got them both somehow. The only thing that I worry about in the senario listed above is who is going to be the Camarilla clan if you choose to go that route. All of the Camarilla clans have at least 20+ vampires to choose from and their skill sets are very defined. They simply do not need a whole lot of help. If I had to put my plug in for any of them - it would be for the Tremere. This way you could focus on the Assamite/Tremere war and give Thaumaturgy a much needed boost since it currently struggles at times in combat. Plus you could take some new ideas from your new Blood Magic: Thaumaturgy book (excellent - btw) and help out the Assamites, Giovanni and the Tremere (as they are all covered in the book) with new rituals and such. But either way - please be careful on the selection of the Camarilla clan. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). No problem here. V:TES has some cards that are worth a little money but nothing in comparison to a Black Lotus or the Moxes. You are not going to piss anyone off by reprinting the cards unless you make Entombment and War Ghouls commons. ;) > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. THANK YOU!!!! I could not ask for more. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. My vote is stay on target with the preconstructs first and then the Sabbat reprint. Just my humble opinion. Todd Banister Prince of Atlanta Scribe of the Assamites

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:07:58 -0500, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me >bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and >then ask for opinions from there. And then we can de-focus the discussion again with wild, crazed ramblings! Cool! ...(takes his medication) >1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as >soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo >card the most: > >Lucita >Vykos >Fatima ^^^ Fatima. We need more Assamites =) Oh yeah! This promo vamp should be an 8 cap or less. =) The high-cap (9+) vamps are fun, and probably would match up to some of these characters' disciplines properly, but very difficult to play well with early on. I'd prefer to see any promo come out as a good 5 or 6 - that way it would see a lot more use. =) >We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is >a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the >card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative >to distribution of the card. *shrug* The only problem I can see is how many the dealers/game shops buy at a time... because I wouldn't put it past some little momo's to run round and buy up all the copies. As long as the dealers bother to purchase enough copies of the rag, they'll sell well - but figure most of us are going to want 2 copies of the vampire anyway. =) >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. *frown* Assamites, Giovanni, Tzimisce, Tremere. All these clans need some help, and all of them have an easily visible selling point. Worth noting that the cards/disciplines used for each of these clans are wildly different: Assamites: QUI/CEL/OBF Giovanni: NEC/POT/DOM Tzimisce: VIC/AUS/ANI Tremere: THA/DOM/AUS The only ones which overlap are AUS and DOM, and there are plenty of "good" cards in both so that you could very well release four decks with NO DUPLICATED CARDS between the decks! This would be a wonderful thing. Well, some like Blood Doll and Wakey, of course. But it'd be simple enough to make sure no discipline cards duplicated. Also interesting is that the only three 'original' disciplines that wouldn't get any new toys in an expansion like this would be FOR, PRO, and PRE, none of which are really hurting for cards at ALL. I'd like to throw in a vote right now AGAINST making any of these decks "uber-good". They should be balanced firmly against each other, so that four new players can grab one deck each and Go Forth And Eternally Struggle and HAVE FUN. But to PROPERLY compete against players with a larger collection, they should need to purchase some more cards from somewhere. This provides a good draw to increase business - the decks can be made good enough to do OK in a local playgroup, but will fall JUST short of doing "great", and will have trouble against tourney-focussed decks - maybe being able to oust one player and have a second on the ropes before being swept through, or something. Y'all get the idea. These should be "showcase" decks, as opposed to "brutally effective" ones. If/when a Settite deck gets printed... I'd also like to request that the prime focus of that deck be on stealing vampires/allies and voting at stealth, with VERY FEW bleed cards in it. Something that I learned recently is that apparently, stealth/bleed has left a very nasty taste in many older players' mouths. Although there are plenty of counters to S/B these days, older players don't really know it, and it would be very bad to release ANY sort of preconstructed deck that played like that - I'm afraid the immediate reaction might be "Oh, well, that's the new Malkavian clan. I knew they wouldn't fix the S/B problem" and poof, no more player BEFORE he gets a chance to realize that S/B is just another deck type under the new game. =/ >These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a >problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions >would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of >project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this >size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the >V:TES fan base more). Nah. No promise like that was ever made. The design of V:TES is such that it really won't matter if someone has 12 of a specific ultra-rare - the defenses available from common cards will still stop them. =) >Concerns are: >1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck >would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Sure... Assamites are proactive combat hell. Kill first, sweep up later. Tzimisce are an intercept clan, so let them do that. Tremere could make a basic bleed/bruise. Giovanni have a wide range of possibilities open. You already have a couple combat decks, but POT combat is worth showcasing. If you give them a new card that lets them fish out a vamp from someone ELSE's ash heap, now you have a POT + Grave Robbing or Go Fish deck. Let them use a couple appropriate retainers/allies (Giuseppe, Ambrosius, Leonardo), and plenty of Whispers of the Dead to recycle their cool cards. And a little bleed at the tail end of it. >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse >(perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either. Master card: "The Assamites can now munch." (or appropriate words.) for the Ravnos, a Master card dealing 1 damage to all Ravnos in play. Maybe 2 damage, but increase pool cost for this clan-hoser appropriately. >Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in >terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the >assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they >about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, >and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up >Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > >Comments folks? See above. =) To continue with Ravnos and Settite with pre-constructed decks would work well also. You might consider releasing one pre-con deck for EVERY clan eventually, although this might have an odd effect on card availability, since there's no longer any randomness about it. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. > Let me bring a little focus to the discussion based on the > accumulated feedback and then ask for opinions from there. Wow. We're gonna get spoiled with all this attention. Y'know that? *grin* > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this > out as soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to > see on the promo card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos I would suggest one of these two. If you decide to put out a Lasombra pre-con deck, I would suggest issuing Vykos as a promo card. Conversely, if you issue a Tzimisce pre-con deck, I would suggest Lucita. > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out > as this is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they > could not get the card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or > offer a cheap alternative to distribution of the card. Cheap way to distribute promo cards in addition to a magazine insert? Three words: Tournament Prize Support. One of the things that DCI did with promo cards was send a pack of them to tournament coordinators to be distributed to participants (one per player regardless of deck performance). This was a great idea as it encouraged more people to play the game in a high visibility area which generates interested onlookers. In return, they got a new card. There's also another obvious vehicle for card distribution that explains my earlier reasoning, which leads me to... > I'm inclined right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed > decks based on ...Assamite & Giovanni, plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan > along with boosters. I would suggest that you issue Fatima in the Assamite deck and a random Giovanni character from one of your novels or clan books. I'm at work, so I don't have any suggestions right now. Put Vykos in a Tzimisce deck or Lucita in a Lasombra deck. As for the Camarilla, I'd suggest issuing Ramona in a Gangrel deck. Since Gangrel have left the Camarilla, this might be a good vehicle for setting that stage. Maybe a vote card that either Gangrel get an additional vote or only Gangrel can vote on or just a Gangrel master card. Anyway, the effect would be that all Gangrel in the game are no longer Camarilla vampires and all titles are given up, but conversely they get some decent benefit as well. The benefit shouldn't far outweigh the cost as I've not seen very many Gangrel political decks. I'll leave suggestions to others. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Whatever you do, do _not_ re-issue Return to Innocence. > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make > them as fully playable as others. For a Lasombra deck, I would suggest some new vote cards and a Lasombra action modifier that gives additional votes. They do stealth and bleed and combat fairly well already, but the Lasombra have a lot of political power in the RPG, but not in VTES. For Tzimisce, I'd suggest a Viccisitude combat card that limits opponents to hand strikes only, ala Immortal Grapple. They need help with blood gain as vic cards are expensive. Perhaps a vic equivalent of Restoration or include some Taste of Vitae cards in the deck along with a Vic strike card that is not preventable by Fortitude. Giovanni need some more useful Necromancy cards. I would like to see a strategy other than bruise and bleed from them but I'll leave that to your imagination. Assamites could use a Quietus card that is an equivalent of Immortal Grapple as well as the frequently suggested card that awards pool for completed contracts. For story line reasons, I'd suggest Gangrel as the Camarilla clan. However, if you want one of the loyal Camarilla clans, I'd suggest either a Malkavian Out-of-turn combat deck or a good Nosferatu deck that utilizes their ability to gather information. It would be nice to see something that hasn't been done to death already. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con > deck would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES > play? Absolutely. I would strongly suggest against issuing a stealth and bleed deck though. There's a number of deck archives out there where you can see basic decks as well as some very creative ones. > 2. I am interested in ... the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, > which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I > don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES either. Heh. How about "Tactical Nuclear Missile"? *grin* Seriously, the Ravnos aren't that common in the tournament setting anyway...so issuing a deck for them in the first four isn't likely to be a good marketing strategy, much less hobbling them. I could see a card that is similar to Sabbat Inquisitor that allows one to burn vampires in a players crypt with Chimerstry, rather than Thaumaturgy. A good quote could be to the effect of, "All right guys, let's get 'em! ...guys?" > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum > up in terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't > love the assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, > what are they about?) Most VTM players know quite well who the Setites are and what they're after and the flavor of the clan translates very well to the card game. However, they just need more vampires. But while I disagree with James Coupe about whether one can make a good Ravnos deck, he was right on the money when he said that they lack focus in the card game. Ravnos need a strategy other than stealing equipment as most successful decks tend not to rely on equipment. If they had a Chimerstry combat card that inflicted damage not preventable by fortitude or dodge and a Chimerstry card that prevented S:CE for a round, they'd be well on they're way to a decent combat deck. Trap, Crimson Sentinel, Apparition makes a nasty combo but it's easily defeated by fortitude and S:CE. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, > Giovanni, and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. > Then pick up Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later > expansion. I'd say this is a more well-rounded strategy. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after > the expansion discussed above. Prolly the best way to go since you first need to convince shop owners that they're not going to be buying dead weight, but I wouldn't suggest waiting very long. People will still want to get card stock. > So, if people feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce > people to the game with, then I'll change my tune here. Good set, yes. Good set to introduce new players, no. I'd say you're heading in the right direction. Noal McDonald National Jyhad League -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell My vote goes to Fatima. My favorite is Lucita but the Assamites need more firepower in terms of vampires. The Lasombra can cope as it is. > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. We get enough copies of inquest here in the Philippines I don't know about the situation in Europe however... > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. Assamites, Giovanni, Lasombra or Tzimisce, and maybe Tremere for the Camarilla sounds good. The idea is to get new gamers interested after all. Selection of the Camarilla Clan should be carefully considered, many people favor the toreador clan at first glance but the Tremere Clan can have Story Tie-Ins with the assamites and giovanni as Todd Bannister mentioned. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Assamite-combat Giovanni-Bleed/Vote/Combat (a bit tough to pull) Setite-Bleed/Vote/Corrupt Ravnos-Intercept/Paralysis(a bit of a control deck) > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. > > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > A Sabbat reprint would be appreciated as well as Ancient Hearts hopefully! These are the cards that are currently out of print and rare so that's where the demand will go for older players. [ quoted text not captured ]

> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. Anything would be appreciated. > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. I think the goal would be to have as many shared skills among the four clans as possible to A) limit the number of skills to learn and B) to make it easier to combine the preconstruced decks. Therefore, the clan combinations I would suggest are: Assamite - QUI CEL OBF Giovanni - DOM POT NEC TZIMICE – ANI, AUS, VIC Nosferatu – ANI, POT, OBF or Assamite - QUI CEL OBF Followers – PRE SER OBF Lasombra – DOM POT OBT Brujah – PRE CEL POT Or Assamite - QUI CEL OBF Giovanni - DOM POT NEC Ventru Antitribu – DOM AUS FOR Toreador – PRE CEL AUS Obviously Assamites need to be one of the clans :-) > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? I think it would be a mistake to try to make one combat, one bleed, one vote and one other. I think balancing the decks with good combat and bleed abilities would provide the most balanced game. This could also lead to one simplification: No political actions in the simplified game. Although political actions aren’t that difficult, it is one less thing for newbies to learn. (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this). > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. Just don’t make any new Chimestry cards or Ravnos vampires. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. As long as the basic ideas of balanced decks and sharable minion cards are supported, I think the clans released should be very much a marketing decision (why release only 4, maybe 6 would be better). > 4. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. Lot’s of people would love it, even better to release it when pre- constructed players are scrambling for more cards along with the rest of us old-timers. Only problem would be to make sure the original camarilla vampires are available to new players in "new" card formats. Chris Miller Toreador VEKN Newsletter Editor. [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve Wieck wrote in message <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>... >Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me >bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and >then ask for opinions from there. > >1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as >soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo >card the most: > >Lucita >Vykos >Fatima >Hesha >Victoria Ash >Jan Pieterzoon >Theo Bell It would have to be Lucita. The Lasombra need another vamp and she looks like the best choice. >We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is >a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the >card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative >to distribution of the card. This is fine. >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > >These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a >problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions >would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of >project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this >size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the >V:TES fan base more). >There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as >fully playable as others. > >My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards >for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might >accomplish both at once. > I may be in the minority but this doesn't seem like the best idea to me. It seems like it will be hard pressed to really accomplish either goal you have listed. True, it will get some new cards out for the established players and provide a easy option for those starting, but it has many drawbacks: 1) As a established player I have no interest in any more reprints. The Sabbat reprints are bad enough. I certainly don't want to buy dozens of decks in the hope of getting some of the new cards instead of a bunch reprints. This means many of the old players are not likely to buy as much as they would with a totally new expansion, even if it's small. This will cut sales. 2) This product will be forced to compete with all the $20 boxes of Jyhad for newbie attention. If this newbie has any skill or experience with collectable card games he will go with the cheapest way to get the most cards. Why pay $10 or so for 90 cards when he can get 500 +, enough cards to make multiple decks, for $20 or so. 3) Limited appeal. It kills one of the best parts of a CCC to most people. Deck design. Most players love to collect cards and construct their own deck. It's the most important part to many. That means this type of marketing is good for one sale, the first deck someone buys. However they are not likely to want to buy more pre-constructed decks. They will want to make there own. That doesn't make it likely there is much future sales for this format. 4) It will take more time to design, playtest, and tool up to print this then to simply re-release sabbat. Personally I would rather see new cards, however most of the players that have not been around long are screaming for Sabbat. NOW. Something should be done to keep the game growing and alive so the time can be taken to produce a really good expansion. >Concerns are: >1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck >would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Yes, they can be made that way. Assimites can be combat, Settites stealth bleed, etc.. >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse >(perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either. This sounds cool. >3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely >recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even >Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in >recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. >Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in >terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the >assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they >about?) This would be my #5 for why I don't think this is the best way to approach this... > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, >and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up >Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. If you do decide to do the pre-con decks this would be the best way to procede. >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game >with, then I'll change my tune here. I think reprinting Sabbat first is the only way to go. Here is why: 1) There is already a HUGE demand for it. All the new players want it, most of the veteran players want it, and even those that have lots of Sabbat would most likely by more in search of certain cards or even just to support the game. It's guaranteed to sell. That means WW is sure to make money. 2) It is perfect for someone starting. It was designed to be sand alone and has all the cards needed for a newbie to make a viable deck. The only problem with the original release of Sabbat was the lack of a complete rule book and the strange 30 something booster pack. Give it a complete rulebook and market it in decks and normal boosters with a decent assortment of vamps and it will be stand alone. If you really think pre-con decks are the way to go you could easily make pre-con Sabbat decks. 3) It is the cheapest and quickest way to get something on the market. Get the V:tes name out there! Market it like your other products. The promo card (if Lucita or another sabbat vamp) would go perfect with it. This is just my opinion. I think passing on a certain thing (Sabbat) to do something somewhat risky could be a big mistake. Steve Bucy Prince of nowhere

Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell Most assuredly it must be Victoria Ash! > > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... > > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. Not so much as an alternative, but an addition; perhaps also with the Masquerade books. Great tie in potential, there. > > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). I don't know about promises, I'm still a bit of a newbie. But I missed out on the AH and Sabbat, so as a collector and a player, I seriously HOPE you will put back in old cards. > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. This would be a good thing. It would make these clans a force in their own, instead as a piddle little threat or supportive only. I really would like to slither and bite someone on the ankle to death in my sneaky snake form, I would. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. And why is this? Perhaps from these clans not being as fully developed out there as the others? Here's the chance to remedy that, right? Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? Sounds good. I like the Assamites -- except I don't really have too much experiance since I missd AH. > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. A Sabbat reprint is essential for those of us who came late to the game. We know that it is there, that it didn't last long, and now it costs us our new-born children to get, if it can be found at all. Whether first or second or simultaneous, just so it's early in the process of the rebirth of the game. > > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > Thanks > Steve Wieck > White Wolf Any time Oh Game God!!! Lord Darksword, Reno Lord of Slithers. [ quoted text not captured ]

> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell Hesha > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. Where can I get Inquest (I am from Slovakia)? In some countries, it may be dificult to get to the promo cards... > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. I suggest Assamites, Giovanni, Tzimisce and Tremere. I would be good idea to include the errated cards in the decks (or at least some not-so- common sabbat commons). Assamites - rush with contracts (and you can print errated Tomb in the deck) Giovanni - a kind of graverobbing deck (errated mind rape would fit the theme of stealing minions) Tzimisce - light intercept (definitly with carrion crows and forced awakening) Tremere - bruise-bleed (great chance to improve thaumaturgy playability) None of the suggested decks is clearly dominant and they also provide chance to fix some problems with VtES (errata, sabbat). >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD storyline. > This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse (perhaps a > Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either Maybe, it would be worth to make entirely new type of cards - events. (Or they can be master - event). Assamites should get one suggested (curse removing) and the ravnos one can be something like "blood hunt cannot be called on vampire diablerising ravnos". That would be not so much powerful but still playable. >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game >with, then I'll change my tune here. Hmm, what about printing something like Sabbat 2nd ed? That way you can merge printing 3ed and re-releasing sabbat into one product. You can also reflect some WoD changes - no Tremere anti. Martin Dudik [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Steve Wieck wrote: > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. I'm none too keen on this, as unless you're planning on doing a larger print run of Inquest than is normal, I find it likely that the cards will be very difficult to come by. I strongly recommend you send bunches of the promo card to any tournament organizers to hand out, one to each participant. This will encourage local tournaments (a Good Thing[TM]). Putting the promo card in preconstructed starters defeats the purpose of a promo card... > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. I like the idea of doing Assamites, Giovanni, Tzimisce, Tremere. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. I strongly encourage you to incorporate all errata and rulings in any Sabbat reprint... If it's possible to do Sabbat starter decks as well, that would also be a huge boon to new players. Fish Flowers.

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Richard Conrad Zink wrote: > What!?!? The Followers of Set not popular! Blasphemy! > > Actually, I am pretty suprised by that. Indeed. Though purely anecdotal (WW are clearly in charge of the facts with regards sales etc.) the Setites do seem to be one of the more popular clans. I have found some role-players who found the outright corruption for corruption's sake that is sometimes read into the Setites a little, well, tedious - but they subtly altered them to be more devious and cunning etc. In my experience, the Giovanni tend to be hardest to sell people on - the family being so incestuous and all. The Assamites are, obviously, cool - assassins and all will sell to a lot of the 'youngsters' (Jesus, did I just say that?) and so on, and the Ravnos, well, they do sometimes attract a fair few goths etc. Hmmm.... one of the supplements I *did* like was Midnight Circus. I wouldn't mind seeing a few ideas from there transplanted to, say, the Ravnos. -- James Coupe

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > Dave, do you _really_ need 10 copies of the same vampire? Yes! Especially if they're Wynn or Beast. :) > > I would rather see the Settites and Ravnos. These two need the extra > > highlighting (and clan cards) to make work. > > Don't listen to him. He only wants more Setite cards because that's the > only clan he builds decks out of. *grin* Actually, having flicked my eye over the vampires there, the Setite does look like the best option, not being too overpowered. The other vampires suffer from the problem I noted earlier - having really rather a lot of points to translate into V:TES. Since no vampire has more than 6 skills (and that normally requires a 10 or 11 capacity), I'd rather see someone around, say, 7 capacity tops, with fewer skills. -- James Coupe

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > pre-constructed decks would work well also. You might consider > releasing one pre-con deck for EVERY clan eventually, although this > might have an odd effect on card availability, since there's no longer > any randomness about it. The decks d on't have to be *entirely* preconstructed. Also, they don't have to contain the cards for all the possible strategies. For instance, the Giovanni deck doesn't have to have, say, Jar the Soul in it, if that isn't important to the theme of that deck, or the Assamite deck doesn't need to have Behind You! in it if there are other cards available, etc. -- James Coupe

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > Since Gangrel have left the Camarilla, this might be a good vehicle for > setting that stage. Maybe a vote card that either Gangrel get an > additional vote or only Gangrel can vote on or just a Gangrel master > card. Anyway, the effect would be that all Gangrel in the game are no > longer Camarilla vampires and all titles are given up, but conversely > they get some decent benefit as well. A reverse "Invitation Accepted". The possibility for a master card is nice, but I wouldn't want to see it playable by non-Gangrel, because of Tradition Upheld. A possible benefit might be +1 HD vs Cam vampires, or something like that. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). > > Whatever you do, do _not_ re-issue Return to Innocence. > Agreed. <snip> *nods at most of the advice for the clans* > For story line reasons, I'd suggest Gangrel as the Camarilla clan. > For gameplay reasons, I'd suggest not. The Gangrel are playable. If the Tremere could be helped, and White Wolf think they can market them, I'd go with that. Myself, if I were to have to give a hierarchy of the Camarilla clans who, IMO, need help, it would go: 1 Tremere - most needed 2= Toreador } 2= Nosferatu } These two are about the same level 4 Gangrel 5 Ventrue 6 Brujah 7 Malkavian Of those, only the first three would really be worth bothering with, to start with. The Gangrel need some help vs S:CE, but that can be done via cards for other clans. If, say, you made an S:CE card for (off the top of my head) Animalism (in a Tzimisce deck) that would do it. > However, if you want one of the loyal Camarilla clans, I'd suggest > either a Malkavian Out-of-turn combat deck Erk, no. Would need a lot of rares. And it would be a nightmare to teach new players with. Malkavian Out of Turn Combat is *not* an easy strategy to learn to play, even for experienced players. > or a good Nosferatu deck that > utilizes their ability to gather information. Needs some new cards to use this effectively, of course. It's the one thing that they can't really utilise *well* in Jyhad :( > But while I disagree with James Coupe about whether one can make a good > Ravnos deck, Oh, it is possible, I know. Just about. But it's very, very difficult. Very difficult. > If they had a Chimerstry combat card that inflicted damage not > preventable by fortitude or dodge and a Chimerstry card that prevented > S:CE for a round, they'd be well on they're way to a decent combat deck. > Trap, Crimson Sentinel, Apparition makes a nasty combo but it's easily > defeated by fortitude and S:CE. Or Celerity (since it has a lot of presses with those Flashes). -- James Coupe

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Steve Bucy wrote: > It would have to be Lucita. The Lasombra need another vamp and she looks > like the best choice. > Need a vamp more than other clans? And to get the vamp anything like the current one, she's gonna be *big*. I agree wholeheartedly that the Lasombra need work, but if I had to pick *one* clan to work on, it wouldn't be the Lasombra. I'm not sure who it would be, but it would come down to one of the other clans, I'm sure. -- James Coupe

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > > Since Gangrel have left the Camarilla, this might be a good vehicle for > > setting that stage. Maybe a vote card that either Gangrel get an > > additional vote or only Gangrel can vote on or just a Gangrel master > > card. Anyway, the effect would be that all Gangrel in the game are no > > longer Camarilla vampires and all titles are given up, but conversely > > they get some decent benefit as well. > > A reverse "Invitation Accepted". The possibility for a master card is > nice, but I wouldn't want to see it playable by non-Gangrel, because of > Tradition Upheld. Well... you're looking at a two-card clan hoser combo, which requires not one but two votes to burn even a single vampire... IOW, not particularly effective. And who says they have to become Caitiff? Why not just say "Gangrel are no longer members of the Camarilla and are now considered Independents."? > A possible benefit might be +1 HD vs Cam vampires, or something like that. Yeowch. Butch. Fish.

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let > me bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated > feedback and then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out > as soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the > promo card the most: > > Lucita Tough one. Childe of one of the more ancient/powerful vampires. She'd be a 9 capacity probably, but have disciplines out the wazoo. Probably a nasty special as well. > Vykos No way. As much as I'd love to see another Tzimisce, she/he is just one of those vampires that shouldn't be put in the game, in my opinion. Too powerful. If, as a player, I am a Methuselah, I should not be able to control a Methuselah. (And no, I don't like that Etrius is in) > Fatima Nice, but she's quite powerful as well. Childe of Thetmes. The Assamites don't really need another 9 capacity. They could use it, sure. > Hesha Sss-ss. > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell These three clans all have plenty of vampires already. So my vote would have to be Hesha. Yes-ss. > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as > this is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could > not get the card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a > cheap alternative to distribution of the card. As long as I know ahead of time which month's issue it's/they're to be in, I can (and will) make a trip out of the mountains. > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm > inclined right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks > based on the 4 independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) > or 2 of these (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan > along with boosters. Excellent. I would not go with all 4 independents, though. Ravnos and Giovanni are a hard sell, in my opinion. Setites add a flavor to Jyhad all their own. So do Ravnos and Giovanni, yes, but the Setite flavor actually works fairly well already, and would not require as many new cards to make solid. The same can be said about the Assamites. They just need those few tweaks here and there to make them shine, whereas I feel the Giovanni and Ravnos would require a lot more work. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain > expansions would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes > this type of project very difficult since the expense of all new card > designs for this size of set would be prohibitive right out of the > gate (until we grow the V:TES fan base more). Fine idea. No problems as long as the recycled cards are judiciously selected. > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them > as fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new > cards for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. > This might accomplish both at once. Exactly. Simple designs for the beginner. And new cards for the vets to pluck out and use in already-constructed decks of their own. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con > deck would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES > play? The 4 independents, yes. I'd have to say they do. But each deck could probably use 2 or more strategies. Depends on how efficient and/or tournament viable you'd want those starter decks to be. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also > involve the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos > deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them > from the future of V:TES either. Excellent! Suggestions: Test of Ur-Shugli Master card requires Assamite and Contract Place this card on an Assamite that has been selected to fulfill a Contract; place 2 counters on this card. Remove 1 counter each time this Assamite untaps. Burn this card when the last counter is removed. If the Contract is fulfilled (target burned) before this card is destroyed, fill this Assamite with blood from the Blood Bank and this Assamite may commit diablerie for the remainder of the game. If this card is burned before the Contract is fulfilled (target not burned), burn this Assamite when you burn this card. Just an idea. Pretty wordy, but I'm sure it can be cut down. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or > even Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the > strongest in recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move > we could make. I agree here. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up > in terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love > the assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are > they about?) Necromancy may be easier to describe, but in my opinion Necromancy just doesn't work in the game. It can do some interesting things, but you just don't see it used very much. The Giovanni regularly get used as filler for Potence + Dominate decks. As I said before, I think the Setites and Assamites would be the best way to go. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, > Giovanni, and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. > Then pick up Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later > expansion. > > Comments folks? My picks: Assamite, Setite, Lasombra, Tzimisce. I think there's just too much work to be done with the Ravnos and Giovanni for them to be corrected in the first new set, and any of the Camarilla clans have plenty of cards already, having received suppliments with each of the 3 sets after Jyhad/V:TES. Tremere against Tzimisce would be great to see, but I don't think the Tremere need anything. Perhaps add them on or swap them with one of the others for new player/marketing appeal. *shrug* > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after > the expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think > pre-cons are the way to go to get more people into the game the > easiest and that's what's needed most. However, Sabbat would > essentially be a reprint so it can be done faster and potentially > cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people feel that Sabbat is > actually a good set to introduce people to the game with, then I'll > change my tune here. I agree. Do the pre-cons first to build the player base. The demand that creates will warrant the re-release of the Sabbat set. And all of this will land me in the poor house with dozens of Inquest covers fashioned into a makeshift house. .p [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Fish Flowers wrote: > > A possible benefit might be +1 HD vs Cam vampires, or something like that. > > Yeowch. Butch. Sorry, add "with appropriate cost". Hmm... Considers possibilities of "I'd like to see a powerful, but WACked card, for that." -- James Coupe

It's really great to see the game is (almost) back on its feet..... > > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell > I vote for Hesha > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? > Sounds good to me... > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. > The Sabbat clearly needs a reprint... and I think it should follow shortly after the release of precon decks, so new people would hang more firmly to the game. I'm really very happy :) Jean-François Caron

Steve Wieck <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl... > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell > > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... >> Gotta go with Lucita. The Lasombra need a mid-cap, and she's HUGELY popular. Second choice would be Sasha Vykos, coz it's so damn creepy... but another biggish Tzimisce is probably overkill. Dragos and Meshenka already rock hard. >> > > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. > >> Inquest is probably the way to go, but I'd also make it available on an ongoing basis through prize support (unless the promo vamp were to be included in decks/boosters in the near future)... Mariana and Dan got distributed widely this way. I am a little concerned that Inquest is not as widely available, nor in quantity, to ensure that a promo distributed only that way would serve its purpose: I can envision the following happening... Local game shop gets its usual 5-10 copies of Inquest. Two or three hard-core old-time VTES players snatch them up. NOBODY who isn't already a VTES player even sees the promo. No marketing impact. Now if WW were to distribute some small quantities of the promo through another means (say, VEKN Princes were given some set quantity to distribute in local leagues/tourneys) that might blunt the effect somewhat. >> > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > >> I think the latter would be smarter. The Independents probably need more help (and are trickier to play effectively as a newbie) than could be easily provided in a format like this, since presumably WW would like to limit the number of new cards designed for this release. Plus, more V:tM players probably would pick up the game if it represented the Cam and Sabbat as well as the "weirdos". >> > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). >> I'm not aware of any such restriction... and I hope to Ghod that nobody did say that. AH includes some essential cards that need to come back into print at some point if the Setites and Assamites are to be competitive for newer players. [ quoted text not captured ] Strategies for the Independents as I see them: Giovanni: Bruise Bleed or Tap'n'Bleed (with Jar The Soul and Sleeping Mind). Funky Recycler Decks (fragile and tricky for newbies to understand). Rush (either Rush/Amaranth/Soul Stealing or Rush/Torpor/Graverob) which suffers from a lack of maneuvers. Most accessible (and do-able) for new players is probably Bruise Bleed. However, it doesn't spotlight NEC much. Some new NEC stuff might help with this (Torment The Soul would rock if more Gio had superior NEC and if maneuvers were easier to come by). However, I'd have to give the nod to Rush/Amaranth/Soul Stealing, for flavor reasons. That would probably require some new anti-vote (something like Gangrel Conspiracy, perhaps, or maybe a location that impedes Blood Hunts "while X is in play, any vampire that votes in favor of a blood hunt against a minion you control must pay 1 blood"?) for the Giovanni, which would be generally fun. Assamites: Rush, Rush, Rush. Decent as an Intercept Wall. Vote (with Alamut). Assamite lovers will kill you if you don't do a combat deck of some sort for these guys. However, to make it different, I'd suggest going the Intercept route and adding some ways for the Assamites to profit more from table control and Contracts. Bring the Viziers and the Assamites' mortal connections into focus a bit by throwing some Tha into the mix and some useful new Allies/Retainers (sorry, but the Terrorists basically suck). Setites: These guys can do a lot. Stealth Bleed, Sleazy Corruption/Mind Numb/etc decks, Vote (sort of), even combat (via Mark of Damnation). I'd go with the Sleaze angle for flavor reasons. As some others have suggested, it would be cool to expand the Corruption mechanic with some additional cards to manipulate Corruption counters. Ravnos: The Ravnos don't suck as bad as a lot of VTES players like to say they do. CHI is not so hot... its blood costs are kinda crippling. But the Ravnos can do unblockable/"don't block this" bleeds with FOR, they can do nasty Intercept things with ANI and Horrid/Mass Reality, they can do untappy Freak Drive/Cat's Guidance stuff... The big problem the Ravnos have is the blood cost of Chi and the odd distribution of disciplines among their vamps. So I'd go the FOR/CHI bleed route and give them a Path of Paradox card and some new vamps (and maybe a few interesting CHI action mods that add some non-bleed effects to a successful bleed (a la Innocent Bystander or Dirty Little Secrets)). So for the four Independents, you get a Rush deck, an Intercept/table control deck, a Sleazy Bleed deck, and an Unblockable Bleed deck. That's two variants on two of the three basic strategies, Combat and Bleed. As I said above, I'd rather see two Independents and one each of Cam and Sabbat make up the four pre-con decks, so I'd say go with Assamites and Ravnos. These are the clans most affected by recent V:tM metaplot, so that gives you the opportunity to include that in the card game while it is still fresh. [BTW, I'm sure others will make the same comment, but be very careful with the Metaplot cards, since they could drastically alter a game if they are too sweeping/permanent in their effects. I don't know if we really ought to propose card text, but perhaps something along the lines of Judgment: Camarilla Segregation would fit the bill for the Ravnos, and I would want the Assamite one to (a) require burning an Assamite to put in play (Ur-Shulgi's purge) and (b) be burnable by an action taken by a Tremere.] As far as the Cam and Sabbat decks... we've covered everything except Vote decks. That brings us to the Lasombra (weenie swarm vote with Power Structure, Creation Rites/Embrace, and Crusades). For the Camarilla, I think the Nosferatu need some help, and they make an interesting Political clan... I suggest using bigger Nossies, but only a few with inherent votes. Add some new cards that allow Nos something akin to Political Struggle, the ability to force votes via blackmail or intimidation, and/or an OBF card that allows temporary titles through impersonating a Prince or something. Use the Traditions. Alternatively, a Toreador politics deck would be fun (and would touch some Disciplines left out from the decks discussed so far!) although I don't know that the Tories need help quite as much. I agree with other's sentiments that the Tremere probably need the help more than either of those clans, but they wouldn't tend to balance the deck spread as nicely, and they will get some help from the Assamite deck's new Tha cards. This spread of decks hits all the major strategies from a couple of angles, and also (if we use the Toreador as our Cam clan) hits a bunch of Disciplines (QUI THA CEL OBF for Assamite, ANI CHI FOR for Ravnos, POT OBT DOM for Lasombra, and AUS PRE CEL for Toreador, leaving out only DEM NEC PRO SER and VIC, which presumably will be well-covered in their associated Clans' future decks). >> > > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. >> Provided that some of the key Sabbat cards are among those cycled into the pre-constructed release, I think we can wait a little while for a Sabbat reprint. The one major point that Sabbat has in its favor is that it is probably more useful for sealed-deck and draft tournament formats than any other card set could be with the exception of a 3rd Edition set. As far as being an introductory set, though... eh. Deck-building is the trickiest part of VTES. Deckbuilding from Sabbat is even trickier, because of the lesser variety of vamps and the rarity distribution making certain key cards hard to acquire in quantity. On the other hand, Sabbat decks tend to be fast, violent, and colorful... which may be a plus for attracting new players. I'd rather wait... and I'm one of those poor souls whose Sabbat collection is tiny. >> > > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > Thanks > Steve Wieck > White Wolf > >> Thank YOU, Steve! You've got all of us incredibly excited. One question: Have there been any decisions as yet as to where VTES will fit into WW as far as Line Manager and publication (i.e. will VTES be a WW product, or is it likely to go to Black Dog or ArtHaus or some other subdivision of WWGS)? My $2, Mark ShaneWood Ancilla of Minneapolis

Steve Wieck wrote: > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: My vote is for Hesha. I didn't see anybody mention it before, but I was under the belief that Lucita was a Lasombra Antitribu, so though she would be cool, she wouldn't necessarily fit the Lasombras very well, plus you'd need a new background card design. > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. I don't mind the idea of putting it in Inquest, but I agree with those who say that you should have copies of them available for tournament support. > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. These sound like good ideas. I think these could be good opportunities to start tying them in with the World of Darkness changes, such as having the assamites can diablerize deck. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). I don't remember any promises from Wizards saying the old cards would not be reprinted. > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Yes. Though you would need to manipulate them so that each showed a key element of game play it could be done. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. This would be great. It would really keep the game up to date. My ideas for cards: To show the Ravnos frenzy where they start killing each other, a master card that makes each ready Ravnos enter combat with another Ravnos. Each Ravnos gets +1 aggravated hand damage during the combat. The predator of the methuselah with the attacking Ravnos controls the combat for the attacker. If a Ravnos would goes to torpor as a result of this combat he is burned instead. This would definitely be a bloody one, but fun. Besides, people don't generally play clan hosers, in my experience. The Assamites committing diablerie: it doesn't have to be a card that is particularly difficult to pull out, as I don't think it's THAT great for an assamite to be able to commit diablerie. I usually have one or two non-assamites in my assamite deck and besides they have sacrificial lamb that they can use which is basically diablerie. To show the malkavians getting dementation back. How about a master that says, while this card is in play, malkavians cannot play cards requiring dominate. however, all malkavians can play cards requiring inferior dementation. this would be a good clan hoser or useful card. you could make it necessary to have some special requirement to pull the card out. > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. > I agree with you. Reprinting Sabbat wouldn't get people excited and interested in trying the game. New decks from White Wolf could very well get people interested, particularly if they were seen as new and tied into the changing World of Darkness. Thanks, Neil Paananen Archbishop of Denver (deceased)

Steve: I am a relatively new player to V:TES and I perhaps can add a different angle than the old-timers 'round here. >>1. We're looking into doing a promo card.<< I vote for Hesha. For balance reasons, it should probably *not* be from one of the original Jyhad clans. >>2. I'm inclined right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters.<< Sounds great! I think preconstructed decks would help newcomers immensely, since putting together a V:TES deck is much more difficult than, say, a Magic deck. Much more! >>My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. << I'm with you on this!!! Concerns are: >>1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play?<< In general, I guess so, though I'm unfamiliar with some of the Independents. I do know the Followers of Set, and one of their themes (corruption/stealing) is certainly unique. >>2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD storyline.<< I too once thought that the WoD RPG players were a great untapped (so to speak) market for V:TES, but I'm not so sure anymore. V:TES is a rather complex card game and takes a great deal of preparation and <gasp> study. RPG players tend use the rules as a framework and go from there. For V:TES players, the rules are the be-all and end-all. Maybe pre-con decks would help, though. Me? Being a Magic player, I think that wearied Magic players are the market. >>3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even Sabbat clans.<< <snip> >>The Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in terse marketing text to attract new players<< Again, depends upon your target market. Folks who are *not* familiar with the WoD, like me, are more likely to pick up a deck on the Followers of Set than the Brujah or Assamites. That is, someone ignorant of the background can interpret "Followers of Set", but what's a "Lasombra" or a "Tremere"?? Dunno. And I DO think that the Settites can be summed up in a catchy phrase. Lemme think on this. >>3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release. Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. << Pre-cons are the way to go for new players. The Sabbat expansion, however, is critical for the medium- and long-range health of the game. If the newbies attracted by the pre-cons can't buy half the cards (AH, Sabbat) for their decks, then we've got problems. Anyway, that's my newbie $0.02, Madman -- Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)

> On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Steve Bucy wrote: >> It would have to be Lucita. The Lasombra need another vamp and >> she looks like the best choice. James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > Need a vamp more than other clans? And to get the vamp anything > like the current one, she's gonna be *big*. Actually, Lucita wouldn't be that bad. In terms of translating disciplines from VTM to VTES, I'd suggest level 6 disciplines and above are superior, level 3-5 disciplines are basic and level 1-2 disciplines are ignored altogether. This would leave Lucita as a 7 cap with: OBT cel dom for obf pot I would suggest pumping dominate to superior and drop celerity and obfuscate altogether for play purposes. She would mesh better with her clan and you could potentially use her in a Ventrue/Lasombra/Giovanni dom-for-pot deck. Since she's a scholar type, I'd add text similar to Tiberius (or maybe Grendel, Tusk or something original) from the original set and leave her as a 7 cap. Since she's also a warrior type, maybe even give her +1 hand damage. It shouldn't be that outrageous. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. Let me start off by saying that I am a relatively new player. I only started playing V:TES in October. I also participated in the European Championship Tournament (Great Job Carl!) > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell > > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... I think I will vote for Fatima. I would rather see Khalil but he wasn't a choice given. The best choice IMHO would be one for each book. I mean really, it not only promotes the books to those that havent read them but it promotes V:TES as well. And, it would sell more Inquest. :o) Good all around!!! > > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. Just let me know where I need to go to pick one up and I am there. > > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > I have to admit 3 of my top 5 choices are all independants. So I would really like to see an all independant set. They need the most help anyway. > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. > > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > > Thanks > Steve Wieck > White Wolf > > Last I would just like to say that no matter what you print I will be picking it up. I am still trying to get my collection up to where I can build without worry of not having enough of certain cards. I look forward to seeing what WW does for V:TES. Hope to see lots of you in Barcelona in May (Right Xavier!) [ quoted text not captured ]

Neil Paananen wrote: (snip) > says, while this card is in play, malkavians cannot play cards requiring > dominate. however, all malkavians can play cards requiring inferior > dementation. Please, dear God, do not print a card like that; it takes clan hoser to the extreme. I realise I will get no sympathy, but this one card would make a Malk S/B deck roll over and die. MAYBE it would be okay if there was some way to get rid of it, but you would see this card showing up a lot at tournaments. Other than that, your comments are on the mark. -T -- S'io credesse che mia risposta fosse a persona che mai tornasse al mondo, questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse. Ma per ciň che giammai di questo fondo non tornň vivo alcun, s'i' odo il vero, senza tema d'infamia ti rispondo. T.S. Eliot- "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

My vote goes for Lucita. Steve Wieck wrote: > > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell > > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... > > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. > > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve, I have thought about it, and have some things that might be worth considering. 1.) The approach of making a new set, but with pre-constructed starters is definitely the way to go. This will help new players and satisfy old ones. However, there are several things that should be done: * All the starters should be fixed, with no randomness at all in them. * The new set has to include random boosters as well * It would be hugely beneficial, if the cards which are taken from the basic set and previous expansions would only appear in the pre- constructed starters and the new cards both in the starters and in boosters. The boosters should ideally contain only new cards along with errata'ed cards (if any). This would please new and old players alike. * The pre-constructed starters need to include a GOOD rulebook. For the Clans to be featured I would agree with you that 2 independents are ok (Assamites and Giovanni are a good choice). The other 2 would best be Tzimisce and Tremere (plotting the two against each other). Why not making 6! pre-const. starters? This could mean 2 independents, 2 camarilla and 2 Sabbat. For the remaining 2 I'd select Lasombra (obviously) and Ventrue, to pit these to politically against each other. Spinning this thought further, it would be best to have the promo card either be Lucita or Sasha, this would create interest for the upcoming set. :) 2.) *If* the set is done with boosters that contain absolutely *no* reprints (apart from rewrites), then new players would want to get cards. This is where Sabbat comes into play! By buying Sabbat, they get all the cards they are looking for. The best course of action would then be: - Print the Promo Vamp (preferably Lucita) - Print the new set (preferably with 2 clans from each camp, making it 6) - Immediatly relaunch Sabbat (preferably at the same time as the new set) I guess that would suffice for generating *huge* interest into the game. 3.) About Lucita. She is pretty powerful in VtM, but this doesn't translate 1:1 into VTES. IMO, she should be a 8 or 9 cap vamp, with all inclan skills at superior, along with normal aus and cel. Ideally she would have some cool ability, like opposing minions have to burn additional 1 blood to play maneuvers, or let her search for Bastard Sword when she becomes controlled and equip for free (no action needed, no cost to be paid). Well, the latter is the same as +1 hand damage essentially. Hm. But you get my point. :) Carl [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > > rai...@mich.com wrote: > > How many cards per magazine? I would hate to have to buy 10 mags > > to get 10 cards. How about a set of 4? > > Dave, do you _really_ need 10 copies of the same vampire? YES! I want a minimum of 5 - 10 of each Vampire. Period. > > I would rather see the Settites and Ravnos. These two need the extra > > highlighting (and clan cards) to make work. > > Don't listen to him. He only wants more Setite cards because that's the > only clan he builds decks out of. *grin* Settites use the Force. :) "you want to seel those Form of corruption cards to me." Waves hand. Damn That doesn't seem to work on Anarchs. > > Raille > > Hey! Aren't you one of those subversive NJL guys? Subversive = Settite. Whats the difference? Yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > This would leave Lucita as a 7 cap with: > OBT cel dom for obf pot > > I would suggest pumping dominate to superior and drop celerity and > obfuscate altogether for play purposes. She would mesh better with her Myself, in such a position, I'd be tempted to give her OBT POT dom for, rather than OBT DOM pot for, because it gives combat a better option, and bleed can do just as well with minor dominate. If you want to make her a 7 capacity, maybe retain the flavour of one of her other disciplines, say, give her an option to pay for an additional strike (which counts as her source of additional strikes), once each combat. 1 blood would strike me as too cheap, but 2 as too much. Hmmm... -- James Coupe

On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Neil Paananen wrote: > To show the malkavians getting dementation back. How about a master that > says, while this card is in play, malkavians cannot play cards requiring > dominate. however, all malkavians can play cards requiring inferior > dementation. this would be a good clan hoser or useful card. you could > make it necessary to have some special requirement to pull the card out. A good clan hoser, yes - by virtue of it being too powerful. A Malkavian deck, unless such a card had a burn clause (and the Malks have plenty of stealth), would be entirely and utterly screwed by such. The problem is, many of the changes in the WoD are very, very radical. Any translation of them into V:TES terms is more difficult, because some, like say the Tremere and Ravnos, have had Antediluvian, not Methuselah, intervention, and so are incredibly powerful. -- James Coupe

Steve Wieck wrote: > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: 1st Choice: Hesha 2nd Choice: Fatima 3rd Choice: Vykos Rob Grau rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:07:58 -0500, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as >soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo >card the most: For those of you not that familiar withe characters, here's a quick run-down: >Lucita Lasombra sired by the now Archbishop Moncada of Madrid. Formidable assassin, and stubborn outcast of her own clan. >Vykos Tzimisce of the Obertus brood sired during the Dark Ages. Political master, showman/woman, and weaver of inrigues. >Fatima Respected female warrior Assamite, and progeny of Thetmes. On/off lover and friend of Lucita. >Hesha Setite and antiques dealer who is highly respected in both the New World and the Old. >Victoria Ash Toreador socialite and the most beautiful vampire on the Eastern Seaboard, also Primogen of Atlanta. >Jan Pieterzoon Respected Ventrue elder, Camarilla troublehshooter, and progeny of Hardestadt the Camarilla founder. >Theo Bell Brujah archon and fearsome swordsman. Advocate of the weak, and seeker of justice. >One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires >are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... The vote is a tricky one. For the point of view of VtES it would have to be from a clan that has only a small selection of vampire cards - i.e. *not* Camarilla. I would vote for Lucita, but then I think she's a babe anyway... Maybe give her OBT POT cel prot for dom, make her capacity 8, with text: '+1 hand damage; Lucita may enter combat with any titled vampire as a (D) action at +1 stealth' (if you are interested in the idea I will happily sign a legal waiver to let you use it!) I do certainly recommend the Vampire Clan Novels, though. They are very good, and do give a good feel for the flavour of each clan. Much better than the previous trilogies anyway... >We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is >a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the >card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative >to distribution of the card. Purchasing Inquest is not a problem for me, but it may be hassle for others. How about mailing some to reps of the VEKN for the purposes of prize support for local tournaments? >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. <snip> >1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck >would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? To date, the 4 independent clans have been played as follows: Assamites: Rush or intercept into combat. Celerity for multiple strikes. Quietus for strikes and.or Obfuscate for Disguised Weapons. Celerity for Psyche back into combat, or Obfuscate for Hidden Lurker back into combat. Minimal damage prevention, and little bleeding or voting power. Flavour cards to accentuate combat. Giovanni: Lots of cheap retainers and allies that are mainly useful for combat purposes. Necromancy for miscellaneous uses, but mainly for restoring burnt minions. Dominate for bleed, stealing other minions and avoiding combat. Potence for lethality in combat. Minimal damage prevention, stealth or intercept, and small voting power. Ravnos: Animalism for retainers and boosts in combat. Chimerstry for damage prevention, strikes and wierd combat effects Fortitude for further damage prevention. Minor bleeding and voting powers, small intercept and stealth. Various flavour cards for acquiring equiment and stealing blood. Setites: Presence for vote pushing, bleed pushing and strike:combat ends. Obfuscate for stealth, and Serpentis for wierd combat and general play effects. Various flavour cards for corrupting and controlling minions. The clans all play differently, but they are all much weaker in comparison to the Camarilla and Sabbat clans. Of the 4 Ravnos is the strongest, simply becuase their 3 disciplines complement each other best. A lot of new cards are needed for the other 3 clans to make them equal in potential to the other Cam and Sabbat clans. Of the 2 main strategies BLEED & VOTE the following clans easily embody them best: Malkavians (BLEED): Obfuscate for high stealth, Dominate for high bleed and bleed bounce, Auspex for further bleed bounce and bleed reduction. Handful of vicious allies,and their fair share of votes. Various flavour cards to increase the unpredictablility of the minions in play. Ventrue (VOTE): Dominate for high bleed, Presence for vote pushing and strike:combat ends, Fortitude for damage prevention and untaps. Various flavour cards and allies that increase the clan's voting potential. Combat is a little trickier, as there are a myriad of ways of getting into combat, doing damage, and preventing damage. The Brujah, Gangrel, Tzimisce, Nosferatu, Toreador, Assamites & Ravnos can all be equally deadly in this regard. If I had to choose a set of clans to base the new set on, I would probably choose 6 clans in total - 2 each from the Cam, the Sab, and the Independents. My own preferences would indicate the Ventrue, the Gangrel, the Assamites, the Setites, the Tzimisce & the Lasombra. These 6 clans give arguably the greatest spread of disciplines (missing out only Thaumaturgy, Chimerstry, Necromancy & Dementation), and provide a very interesting play environment. If you're not keen on using the Setites (as noted below) then maybe throw in the Malkavians or Nosferatu instead? >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse >(perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) If this is done, then the Assamite vampire cards would need a new weakness. Perhaps introducing cards (Masters?) that negate the default weakness, and that go on to make Assamites frenzy and commit amaranth in combat? >but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either. Handling this will be particulary tricky. Perhaps limiting the available cards, and stacking the odds against them via anti-Ravnos cards would be enough. However, this would not be much fun for VtES players trying to make use of Ravnos... More fun would be small expansions sets devoted to the Years of the Ally, Hunter, Orient and Reckoning respectively... >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game >with, then I'll change my tune here. Sabbat would be good enough, I guess. I am missing a great number of original Sabbat cards. HOwever, I do feel that a well-constructed 3rd edition would be better in the long-term... Regards, Mike Nudd VEKN Prince of London & long-standing V:tM fan mi...@vekn.org.uk ; mi...@darkness.org.uk

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > Myself, in such a position, I'd be tempted to give her OBT POT dom > for, rather than OBT DOM pot for, because it gives combat a better > option, and bleed can do just as well with minor dominate. However, according to her stats sheet, she's level 5 in Dominate and only a level 3 in Potence. However, giving her +1 hand damage offsets the minor potence, making her quite viable for a good combat deck. In Obfuscate and Celerity, the disciplines I suggested dropping, she's only a level 3 but the other off-clan discipline of note, fortitude, she's at level 4. > If you want to make her a 7 capacity, If you figure that a 13th generation vampire is a 1 cap, a 7th generation vampire works out to be a 7 cap. Benefits, like political titles, and penalties, like -1 stealth to bleed, offset that. > maybe retain the flavour of one of her other disciplines, say, > give her an option to pay for an additional strike (which counts > as her source of additional strikes), once each combat. 1 blood > would strike me as too cheap, but 2 as too much. Given her standing with the Sabbat, you could restrict her from gaining any Sabbat political titles and make the additional strike free or, at most, cost 1 blood . Since the Lasombra are a political clan, that restriction would actually mean something. However, you don't want too much text on her. A little flavor is good, but too much chokes the patron. The other common suggestions are Hesha and Fatima. The write-ups on them should be fairly easy. Hesha would make a good 6 cap with PRE SER OBF, or maybe a 5 cap with PRE SER obf. For extra text I was thinking along of the lines of a built-in hunting ground effect. Fatima would make a good 8 cap with OBF CEL QUI pot with 1 vote and no restriction on diablerie. With the restriction lifted, she would make a great promo card. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Mike Nudd wrote: > Maybe give her OBT POT cel prot for dom, make her capacity 8, with > text: '+1 hand damage; Lucita may enter combat with any titled vampire > as a (D) action at +1 stealth' Which is the wrong side of the power curve. That works out to about 10 capacity. [0] I support the sentiment of OBT POT, though. As I've said, promo cards should be good, but not killer. [0] From the rough Jyhad appromixation of 2 superiors = 4 capacity, 4 inferiors = 4 capacity, +1 hand damage = 1.5 capacity, limited (D) rush action = 0.5 capacity or so. -- James Coupe

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. Another thing that would be really nice to have is some good, attractive deck boxes. If the pre-constructed decks came in boxes that comfortably held 102 cards (90 library and 12 crypt) then it would have additional value to players. I know that this is a minor point, but every little bit helps. Chris. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Tom Longwell wrote: > Neil Paananen wrote: > > > says, while this card is in play, malkavians cannot play cards requiring > > dominate. however, all malkavians can play cards requiring inferior > > dementation. > > Please, dear God, do not print a card like that; it takes clan hoser to > the extreme. I realise I will get no sympathy, but this one card would > make a Malk S/B deck roll over and die. ... that's a bad thing? Fish.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:16:13 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >Myself, in such a position, I'd be tempted to give her OBT POT dom for, >rather than OBT DOM pot for, because it gives combat a better option, and >bleed can do just as well with minor dominate. > >If you want to make her a 7 capacity, maybe retain the flavour of one of >her other disciplines, say, give her an option to pay for an additional >strike (which counts as her source of additional strikes), once each >combat. 1 blood would strike me as too cheap, but 2 as too much. >Hmmm... Give her OBT POT for and the option to pay for an additional strike with 1 blood, then. Now she's a combat goon, but can't bleed for diddly - might not be great. Do the Lasombra need that?... maybe. Every one of their vamps above the 2-cap has some form of dominate, so they're not hurting for that as a whole. And their POT is limited to Lisette(6) and Antonio(9)... so they could maybe use a 7 with mad combat skillz(TM). Last time I faced an L. deck, it had Entombments and Sewer Lids, obviously to be in good shape no matter what range it was at. Except the disciplines screw it up - Guido has OBT but no POT, so you just run away from him. Several others have pot/POT, so you stay at close after you see the first lid. They might do well with a 7-cap thug with both OBT/POT, even if the thug couldn't bleed too easily. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote: > I think I will vote for Fatima. I would rather see Khalil but he > wasn't a choice given. The best choice IMHO would be one for each > book. I mean really, it not only promotes the books to those that > havent read them but it promotes V:TES as well. Weeeellll... One problem with the assumption that "Clan books have promo cards" is that there are already bunches of pre-existing Clan books, which weren't shipped with promo cards in them, or coupons for promo cards. Presumably a reprint of (say) Setite isn't really a viable option, just to push promo cards... and most people who care will already have their copy, and be unwilling to buy another copy just for a card they probably don't care about. Fish.

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let > me bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated > feedback and then ask for opinions from there. I talked with my playgroup last night, and the answers I give are a mixture of my answers, as well as answers from players who will probably not post individually to the newsgroup. Others from the group like TheLasombra and Greg Faulkner will likely post their own responses. > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell Hesha > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as > this is a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could > not get the card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a > cheap alternative to distribution of the card. Use VEKN Princes to distribute in addition to Inquest. You probably want to use Inquest to promote to non-players and ex-players and VEKN to promote to current players. VEKN Princes can then distribute at tournaments and organized play-sessions and such. Is <100 mailings acceptable? > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con > deck would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES > play? It's been my experience that each clan has the possibility for multiple strategies. Just pick one strategy for each clan that mesh well in a 4 players game using the 4 pre-con decks. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. We have a cam member in our playgroup, and he's been very excited about your plans for the future once he realized you're trying to steer VTES and VTM back to some parallel plotline. Our group will glady help playtest anything you come up with :-) VTES representation at Cam functions is also something our group is interested in helping with. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, > Giovanni, and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. > Then pick up Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later > expansion. > > Comments folks? This is my personal comment, not my playgroups. I would like to see Assamite and Giovanni, with Tzimisce and Toreador. Why Toreador? You probably want at least one vote pre-con deck, and Toreador also has decent combat ability (to survive against the other 3 combat clans). Not to mention some very cool in-clan cards to spice up the game. No new cards for Toreador though, focus on the other 3. While I think Tremere is a good choice, you would then have 4 clans that usually won't be voting...unless they come up with good political cards for Giovanni. I feel new players should still see a vote deck to know they exist and how they should be built. > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after > the expansion discussed above. How would this be packaged? Would the errata be included? Most of my playgroup is quite pleased with the plan you've laid out. If we see a new vamp in a few months, it'll be the first new card we've seen in how many years...? <g> --------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Neil Paananen wrote: > > To show the malkavians getting dementation back. How about a master that > > says, while this card is in play, malkavians cannot play cards requiring > > dominate. however, all malkavians can play cards requiring inferior > > dementation. this would be a good clan hoser or useful card. you could > > make it necessary to have some special requirement to pull the card out. > > A good clan hoser, yes - by virtue of it being too powerful. A Malkavian > deck, unless such a card had a burn clause (and the Malks have plenty of > stealth), would be entirely and utterly screwed by such. I disagree. There are plenty of Malk decks out there that don't use very much Dominate at all. All this becomes, then, is a clan+strategy hoser -- that is, someone has to be playing a particular strategy (bleed) with a particular clan (Malk) for including this card to be worthwhile. And it's not like there aren't other strategy hoser possibilities out there: perhaps they require multiple cards instead of just one, but they're possible. (Kindred Restructure/Elder Kindred Network/Kindred Coercion, anyone?) Fish.

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > Myself, in such a position, I'd be tempted to give her OBT POT dom > > for, rather than OBT DOM pot for, because it gives combat a better > > option, and bleed can do just as well with minor dominate. Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > However, according to her stats sheet, she's level 5 in Dominate and > only a level 3 in Potence. However, giving her +1 hand damage offsets > the minor potence, making her quite viable for a good combat deck. > > In Obfuscate and Celerity, the disciplines I suggested dropping, she's > only a level 3 but the other off-clan discipline of note, fortitude, > she's at level 4. > > If you want to make her a 7 capacity, > If you figure that a 13th generation vampire is a 1 cap, a 7th > generation vampire works out to be a 7 cap. Benefits, like political > titles, and penalties, like -1 stealth to bleed, offset that. She's a tough one. I don't think you can use the 13th gen = 1 cap example, as that would make the Inner Circle members and the 10 caps older than we, as Methuselahs. Take her sire, one of the Cardinals (don't want to ruin anything for anyone who hasn't read the novels). If you look at the other Cardinals in the card game, they're all 10 caps (I think). Her sire is supposedly one of the stronger Cardinals in WW's world, so he'd definitely be a 10 as well (or an 11 even). Lucita would then have to be a 9, being his childe. The Lasombra don't really need another 9 cap; a good 7 would be far better for them. But if that vampire were introduced, I would not want it to be Lucita. Just make a new 7 cap Lasombra, with Lucita as a 9 (or not added). > > maybe retain the flavour of one of her other disciplines, say, > > give her an option to pay for an additional strike (which counts > > as her source of additional strikes), once each combat. 1 blood > > would strike me as too cheap, but 2 as too much. > Given her standing with the Sabbat, you could restrict her from > gaining any Sabbat political titles and make the additional strike > free or, at most, cost 1 blood . Since the Lasombra are a political > clan, that restriction would actually mean something. However, you > don't want too much text on her. A little flavor is good, but too > much chokes the patron. Agreed. And I like the idea of her being a pest to her clan. Perhaps make her disciplines quite something, but have it so that your highest capacity Lasombra must pay 1 blood during your untap while Lucita is ready. > The other common suggestions are Hesha and Fatima. The write-ups on > them should be fairly easy. > > Hesha would make a good 6 cap with PRE SER OBF, or maybe a 5 cap with > PRE SER obf. For extra text I was thinking along of the lines of a > built-in hunting ground effect. Yes. Hesha would be a fine introduction. The Setites definitely need another vampire of that capacity. > Fatima would make a good 8 cap with OBF CEL QUI pot with 1 vote and no > restriction on diablerie. With the restriction lifted, she would make > a great promo card. That's a keen idea. She'd have to be a 9 cap though, being the childe of Thetmes. No prob. Just throw aus on her as well and you have it. Some nice thinking. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve Bucy wrote: > Steve Wieck wrote in message <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>... > >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's > what's > >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > >with, then I'll change my tune here. > > I think reprinting Sabbat first is the only way to go. Here is why: > > 1) There is already a HUGE demand for it. All the new players want it, most > of the veteran players want it, and even those that have lots of Sabbat > would most likely by more in search of certain cards or even just to support > the game. It's guaranteed to sell. That means WW is sure to make money. > > 2) It is perfect for someone starting. It was designed to be sand alone and > has all the cards needed for a newbie to make a viable deck. The only > problem with the original release of Sabbat was the lack of a complete rule > book and the strange 30 something booster pack. Give it a complete rulebook > and market it in decks and normal boosters with a decent assortment of vamps > and it will be stand alone. If you really think pre-con decks are the way to > go you could easily make pre-con Sabbat decks. > > 3) It is the cheapest and quickest way to get something on the market. Get > the V:tes name out there! Market it like your other products. The promo card > (if Lucita or another sabbat vamp) would go perfect with it. > I agree with this. One way to relaunch V:tes on the long term is to divide it into three stand alone games (camarilla, sabbat and independents). Each game could be sold as starters with a complete rules booklet, boosters and as pre constructed decks also with rules (I think this idea was mentioned by someone else). To make the first game it would not be good to start with the camarilla as there is so much jyhad-cards on the market. Independents need too much work (incorporating new clans and make some new cards for the already existing clans). The sabbat however is already stand alone. IMHO it needs a few more cards (both new and recycled from other sets) to flesh it out. If it was then packaged as starters, boosters and pre-cons at least I would buy a lot. To just to re-print it and package it as starters, boosters and pre-cons would also make me happy and I am sure would attract new players. Later on the same stand alone thing could be done for the independents. It could also be done for the camarilla when/if jyhad disappears from the market, which would be a 3:rd edition that could include cards recycled from AH and DS. TG

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 c34m...@my-deja.com wrote: > Another thing that would be really nice to have is some good, > attractive deck boxes. If the pre-constructed decks came in boxes that > comfortably held 102 cards (90 library and 12 crypt) then it would have > additional value to players. Yes! Yes! Yesyesyesyesyesyes! 102-card boxes! Yes! Starter boxes should also be able to fit 102 cards, not just preconstructed boxes. It is _extremely_ annoying to be unable to fit your deck into a nice slick-looking starter box, and show off just what deck it is you're carrying around. I've resorted to using a box meant for card condoms, which just isn't as impressive. Fish.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Fish Flowers wrote: > > Please, dear God, do not print a card like that; it takes clan hoser to > > the extreme. I realise I will get no sympathy, but this one card would > > make a Malk S/B deck roll over and die. > > ... that's a bad thing? Yes. S&B is a ground in concept into the game. Making it roll over and die is *not* an option. -- James Coupe

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Fish Flowers wrote: > I disagree. There are plenty of Malk decks out there that don't use very > much Dominate at all. Cool. There aren't many decks which used Harrod, either. Can I have my card which says: "If Harrod comes into the game, you may happily screw over your opponent and win, no questions asked" ? Just because something isn't the only way to happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that we should just be allowed to kill it when it does come up. Completely, completing screwing with another deck's strategy is not an option - that's why Thoughts Betrayed in its old form was so widely hated - because it killed almost every combat deck, dead, as well as allowing you a lot of offense yourself. Here, killing any Malk S&B deck dead is a Bad Thing. -- James Coupe

Fish Flowers wrote: > Yes! Yes! Yesyesyesyesyesyes! > 102-card boxes! Yes! > > Starter boxes should also be able to fit 102 cards, not just > preconstructed boxes. > > It is _extremely_ annoying to be unable to fit your deck into a nice > slick-looking starter box, and show off just what deck it is you're > carrying around. I've resorted to using a box meant for card condoms, > which just isn't as impressive. Many players in our area have ordered carrying cases that were designed for Redemption decks, but which work wonderfully for V:TES decks. It holds six 102-card constructed decks snugly in individual foam-cut compartments, with room for extras (two compartments that hold about twice the number of cards in a deck) plus a storage space for pool that "seals" when the case is closed. See http://www.bfree.on.ca/vmall/familytreasures/ccgcase.htm for more information. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | "A chat with you, and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | death loses its sting!" Graphics Specialist and V:TES Rulemonger | -- Blackadder

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. Sorry, I'm late in jumping into Round 2 here. I hope that I can get my views noted (and I hope that the below hasn't been said ad nauseum already)... :) > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: I'll have to go read the novels... :) I would humbly suggest that you print LOTS of the promos. Besides being a great way to do a tie-in (as you are suggesting), they are great to give away as gifts at tournaments (via a special request to your future tournament coordinating body :)). This is another small thing that WotC does do for us now... > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). a. There was no such promise to my knowledge. b. We need *cards* from the AH expansion in circulation, most critically in the form of AH Boosters, but also via this mechanism if you desire. So, please *reprint*! :) > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. Yes, it would. However, it would only do the former (getting new players) well, and the latter not too well (cards for veterens). This is what I mean: New Players: Yes, they would *love* to get preconstructed decks that are *competitive*, as has been very successfully done with Magic. A Good Thing(tm) for WW and for new players... Veterens: Yes, we would *love* cards to round out the Independents, as they need them *badly*. However, if the cards are not released in BOOSTERS (as well as Preconstructed Starters, this will be very price prohibitive to the veterans. We would have to buy tons of boxes of Starters to get enough of the new cards that we want. SUGGESTION: Release the new expansion as Preconstructed Decks (gets the newbees) and in Booster packs (makes the veterans *swoon*)... :) > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? YES, absolutely. That is the amazing thing about V:TES. While there are 3 *major* deck-types (and therefore Strategies), there are "N" number of ways to implement those Strategies, where "N" is *at least* the sum of the number of Clans and the number of Disciplines. It's a beautiful system, my good friend.. :) > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. Storyline tie-ins are A Good Thing(tm), especially as they will help new players (who play V:TM). Just ensure *please* that these storyline tie-ins don't unbalance something else. For example, if you release the Assamites from their curse via a Master Card, that card has to have a cost associated, such that it doesn't make them *too* powerful. Same goes for all the other cool, powerful minion cards that you will create for the Assamites... :) > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. From a marketing standpoint, you are picking the best two of the independant/Non-Camarilla clans, BY FAR. Everyone *loves* the idea of the Assamite (the cold, contract killers) and the Giovanni (the dead-loving, Underworld bosses). Frankly, these pre-constructs may do *better* than simple Camarilla Preconstructed Decks to entice V:TM players. Hey, what is a more interesting "story" or "concept"? One that revolves around the Ventrue or one that revolves around the Assamites? My vote goes with the Contract Killers over the Businessmen... :) > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. While you are on the right track with Preconstructed Decks for newbees (and hopefully, packaging a new expansion for us Veterans), I still firmly believe that reprinting SABBAT (and AH) is more important. The reasons benefit both WW, the Vets, and the Newbees: 1. *Immediate* revenue for WW!!! Sabbat is so scarce that it's getting as much as $300/box. See Ebay auction at this time for 1 box going for $255 (and there is still 7 days left in the auction)! Also, as you mentioned, there will be very little cost to do this, as the cards are there already! Not that you need to see it spelled out, but: "Low Cost" + "High Sales" = "Big Profit to WW" !! :) 2. Resupply of extremely important cards for Veterans and for Nuvo-Veterans: The True-Veterans of the game need the supply of Sabbat for Draft and Sealed Deck tournaments, as well as to round out their collections. The Nuvo-Veterans need the cards period, as they were playing the game and all of a sudden, there were no Sabbat cards! All of the Veterans would be buying these cards from you! 3. Solid release for Newbees: Sabbat is a solid release of this game. Even newbees (the ones that I have been introducing to the game) love these cards, the art, and the entire "Sabbat as an expansion" concept. They would buy these cards too! SO, I think that the reprint of Sabbat (and AH) is actually better for YOU (WW) and the game as a whole. Thank you once again, Steve, for asking our opinions about this stuff. You don't know how happy this makes us... :) Best, Stephen "The Evil One" Buonocore V:EKN Prince of New Jersey [ quoted text not captured ]

myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > She's a tough one. I don't think you can use the 13th gen = 1 cap > example, as that would make the Inner Circle members and the 10 caps > older than we, as Methuselahs. You're confusing generation with blood capacity. The two are not the same thing. Blood capacity reflects the amount of effort that it has taken to influence the vampire to work for you. That's why you add blood to an uncontrolled vampire during the Influence phase. Remember, blood on a vampire is not a representation of actual blood. > If you look at the other Cardinals in the card game, they're all 10 > caps (I think). No, the Toreador Cardinal is a 9 cap. However, you're missing the point. Cardinals are harder to influence and therefore require more resources to put into play. > Lucita would then have to be a 9, being his childe. Per previous statement, generation and lineage have only moderate influence on the capacity. Since Lucita has no political title, it is not as hard to influence her. As a 7th generation vampire, which is just above average, with no political titles it is very appropriate for her to be a 7 cap. > That's a keen idea. She'd have to be a 9 cap though, being the > childe of Thetmes...just throw aus on her as well and you have it. Again, being the childe of Thetmes has little to do with blood capacity and the Assamites really don't need another 9 cap. As for adding auspex, they could use some intercept ability but they need the potence (for IG) more. Noal McDonald National Jyhad League -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > She's a tough one. I don't think you can use the 13th gen = 1 cap > > example, as that would make the Inner Circle members and the 10 caps > > older than we, as Methuselahs. > > You're confusing generation with blood capacity. The two are not the > same thing. Blood capacity reflects the amount of effort that it has > taken to influence the vampire to work for you. That's why you add > blood to an uncontrolled vampire during the Influence phase. Blood Capacity also (in this card game) represents relative age (generation). A "younger" vampire is one whose blood capacity is smaller. > > If you look at the other Cardinals in the card game, they're all 10 > > caps (I think). > > No, the Toreador Cardinal is a 9 cap. However, you're missing the > point. Cardinals are harder to influence and therefore require more > resources to put into play. Older vampires require more resources to control. And, in general, Cardinals are older. But you do not look for titles to determine the age or controllability of a vampire - you look at the capacity. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp [ quoted text not captured ]

(steve said:) > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita I'd love any new vamp, but I must go with the Lasombra. But I agree with Bernie's recommendation that you print a promo vamp from a different clan as the pre-constructed deck's clans. And please send packs of the promo vamp to people running tournaments-- usually Princes. I'd go out and buy an Inquest, sure, so doing both is probably smart. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. Preconstructed Assamite decks will bring the combat twinkies out of the woodwork. I say bring 'em on. I would purchase a Giovanni deck for the allies and retainers, but build it carefully. A Giovanni deck ain't easy to construct. You might consider making both Lasombra and Tzimisce pre-constructed decks, then allow new players to seek out the remaining stock of Jyhad / V:tES cards to make Camarilla decks. Or, allow them to find existing players and trade for their enormous back stock. Re: reprinting Sabbat -- I think the pre-constructed decks (if they contain any new cards) would draw enough interest from veterans and newbies that it would show enough of a profit and stoke the market for a subsequent release of Sabbat. The existing players want new cards and Sabbat. Might as well draw in some new players with new cards, then hit all of us, new and old, with a Sabbat reprint, for maximum dollar value (muah-ha-ha-ha-ha). -yeah, here I am advocating marketing strategy to Steve Wieck. matt

myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > She's a tough one. I don't think you can use the 13th gen = 1 cap > > example, as that would make the Inner Circle members and the 10 caps > > older than we, as Methuselahs. Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > You're confusing generation with blood capacity. The two are not the > same thing. Blood capacity reflects the amount of effort that it has > taken to influence the vampire to work for you. That's why you add > blood to an uncontrolled vampire during the Influence phase. > Remember, blood on a vampire is not a representation of actual blood. Actually, I was going on the assumption (the incorrect one, it seems. heh) that you were relating capacity directly to generation, with the 13 gen = 1 cap equation. I was trying to go ahead on that basis, but I see what you meant now. Still: > > If you look at the other Cardinals in the card game, they're all 10 > > caps (I think). > > No, the Toreador Cardinal is a 9 cap. However, you're missing the > point. Cardinals are harder to influence and therefore require more > resources to put into play. But the age and generation of the vampire are definitely factors into how powerful they are as well. Looking at the other vampires, the 9 and 10 caps, we have to assume that they are probably old and of at most (lowest) 6th generation. 4-5th generation is considered Methuselah, which is what we as players are, so they'd be too powerful for us to control. > > Lucita would then have to be a 9, being his childe. > > Per previous statement, generation and lineage have only moderate > influence on the capacity. Since Lucita has no political title, it is > not as hard to influence her. As a 7th generation vampire, which is > just above average, with no political titles it is very appropriate > for her to be a 7 cap. I have to disagree. I think generation, lineage and age have quite a bit to do with influence on capacity. Political titles matter less I think. How would you explain the vampires like Keminitri, a 10 with no political influence? Or even a vampire like Lucretia, who is a cap 10 Primogen when her Justicar has a lower capacity than she does? (I actually am interested in your thoughts here; not just being a smartass) > > That's a keen idea. She'd have to be a 9 cap though, being the > > childe of Thetmes...just throw aus on her as well and you have it. > > Again, being the childe of Thetmes has little to do with blood > capacity and the Assamites really don't need another 9 cap. I agree. That was one of the reasons why I didn't pick Fatima. Make them a new cap 7 vamp. That I'm all for. But just don't make it Fatima. > As for adding auspex, they could use some intercept ability but they > need the potence (for IG) more. Well, and I think you'll agree, rather than giving them potence to be able to use IG, why not just a new card. Something like: Tracking Master Card requires Assamite While this card is in play, no minion may play S:CE cards in combat. Any vampire may take a directed action to destroy this card. That would give them the combat edge they needed, while also providing an easy way to destroy the card. Cost would be another factor. Just an idea though. Maybe even just have a master card that you can play onto a Contract already in play that does the same thing for an individual Assamite when in combat with the target of the Contract. The Tracking card could also be something used similarly by the Gangrel. Both of those clans need something to put fear into the other clans when they see them. I mean really, the only Gangrel decks that people fear are bleed-loop decks. Geh! Thanks for the input, Noal. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> writes: >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > >These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a >problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions >would never be reprinted? No such promise was ever made. Someone is confusing the "no reprint" list in Magic with Jyhad expansions. Or perhaps the WotC policy of reprinting card in white border format only. It would probably be good policy to make reprints destuingishable on the front so no one can claim you've interfered with the "collectability" of a "limited edition" printing. But chances are, you wanted to at least add a "Copyright White Wolf, 2000" notice, anyway. It goes without saying, of course, that no one would ever even *think* of changing the card *backs* of a CCG, right? :-P It certainly sounds like a reasonable thought to me. Still, newcomers will need a wider selection of cards than just precons in the long run. Fred

> Well, and I think you'll agree, rather than giving them potence to be > able to use IG, why not just a new card. Something like: > > Tracking > Master Card > requires Assamite > While this card is in play, no minion may play S:CE cards in combat. > Any vampire may take a directed action to destroy this card. Whoa! I left a vital phrase out. Should read "While this card is in play, no minion may play S:CE cards when in combat with an Assamite you control." Heheh... "Nobody ends combat, do you hear?!" [ quoted text not captured ]

"Steve Bucy" <tb...@lainet.com> writes: >1) As a established player I have no interest in any more reprints. The >Sabbat reprints are bad enough. I certainly don't want to buy dozens of >decks in the hope of getting some of the new cards instead of a bunch >reprints. This means many of the old players are not likely to buy as much >as they would with a totally new expansion, even if it's small. This will >cut sales. ...to old players. A CCG needs to be availabe to new players or sooner or later it dies off. To the contrary, White Wolf would be very well advised to see to it that new players can get into the game before worrying to much about selling new expansions. They can get to that later. First, let's make sure the game _has_ a future. This is in *everyone's* best interests! >2) This product will be forced to compete with all the $20 boxes of Jyhad >for newbie attention. If this newbie has any skill or experience with >collectable card games he will go with the cheapest way to get the most >cards. Why pay $10 or so for 90 cards when he can get 500 +, enough cards to >make multiple decks, for $20 or so. True; but once a newbie has all the Jyhad card they can eat, what next? This is the trouble right now - and I have a friend who's right in the midst of it: he bought some Jyhad, he's gotten hold of a little Dark Soveriegns but he can't get an Ancient Hearts or Sabbat. This has got to be somewhat demoralizing. >4) It will take more time to design, playtest, and tool up to print this >then to simply re-release sabbat. Personally I would rather see new cards, >however most of the players that have not been around long are screaming for >Sabbat. NOW. Something should be done to keep the game growing and alive so >the time can be taken to produce a really good expansion. This I do agree with. Fred

vte...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > She's a tough one. I don't think you can use the 13th gen = 1 cap > > > example, as that would make the Inner Circle members and the 10 caps > > > older than we, as Methuselahs. > > > > You're confusing generation with blood capacity. The two are not the > > same thing. Blood capacity reflects the amount of effort that it has > > taken to influence the vampire to work for you. That's why you add > > blood to an uncontrolled vampire during the Influence phase. > > Blood Capacity also (in this card game) represents relative age > (generation). But in V:TM, age and generation are two seperate concepts. Generation represents how far removed you are from the original vampire (Caine). It's kind of like the whole "six degrees of seperation" thing. If your sire was Gen X, you are Gen X+1. I think the max Gen is 15. If you are Gen 15, you cannot sire any vampires. I believe that, in V:TM game mechanics, this represents how much power you could ultimately attain, but not neccesarily how much power you have currently. Age is, well, how old you are. Obviously an older vamp, having been around for a while, has probably aquired more knowledge and power than a younger one. Is is quite possible for a younger vamp to be a higher Generation than an older vamp. I'm not sure how this translates into blood cap for V:TES vamp cards. -- Gary J. Weiner \ "We've got a blind date with Destiny...and webm...@hatrack.net \ it looks like she's ordered the lobster." http://www.hatrack.net \ -The Shoveler, "Mystery Men" "Hang Your Web With Us!"\

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > That's a keen idea. She'd have to be a 9 cap though, being the childe > of Thetmes. No prob. Just throw aus on her as well and you have it. Not necessarily. If Thetmes has gone up a generation since embracing her, he would have been 9, so she would have been 8. -- James Coupe

I am not going to bore you with your own writing. Great ideas. However from a marketing point view focusing on the new and average player, you have to go with Camerilla Clans and maybe some Sabbat for pre constructeds . The Independents need work, however new players are the main thing here. New players know and relate to the Camerilla Vampires. Get the fan base and then flesh out some of the smaller clans. You can also try to do a little of this in the boosters. Don't worry about re-releasing cards. With a stronger following the orginals of the rare cards will be worth more than they are now, even with a re-release. The more followers the more a card is worth. (Charizard $75.00 what the hell are people thinking) Be carful and don't try to be all things to all people, if you do you'll be nothing to nobody :) Stick to the basics. also please read my post on 3/10/99 Comments from an average player.

James Coupe wrote: > > [SNIP] > > What makes the card designs expensive? R&D or artwork? > [snip] > With artwork, would it be possible to use something that WW already uses - > like, say, using artwork from clan books or V:tM? Although, a lot of it > is in Black and White, save for the covers. > I think that in most cases over here, the artist continues to own the art. They license it to the company for either a certain period of time, or more commonly, for a single use. So WW might have to pay to re-use any art they have used for other purposes... [snip] Chris -- Tammy Martin 5'7" Alexander Shorb 2'10" Chris Shorb 5'11" Shameless plug: <http://www.graphicnovels.com/>

James Coupe wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Gary J. Weiner wrote: > > But in V:TM, age and generation are two seperate concepts. > > Yes, but only generation counts for things like Dominate - just like in > V:TES, where it's only the capacity which counts for older/younger in the > same contexts. Not completely true. Generation does count for how difficult some things you try to do with DOM or other diciplines are. But before you can attempt them at all, you need to have enough "dots" in that dicipline, which is a gauge of experience and is certainly related to age. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ironic isn't it - Players of the morally repugnant game (according to former V:TES brand manager) using the card cases of the only Bible-based CCG! Chris (and lets not get into discussion of whether the Bible is morally repugnant - go to alt.bible.d). [ quoted text not captured ] -- [ quoted text not captured ]

vte...@my-deja.com wrote: Using the Official WotC Title (tm) are we? Scared of that. *wry grin* > Blood Capacity also (in this card game) represents relative age > (generation). > A "younger" vampire is one whose blood capacity is smaller. Yes, a older vampire is typically more expensive to influence than a younger one. However, age in years has absolutely nothing to do with generation. If a 4th generation embraced a vampire the immediate result would be a very young 5th generation vampire that would not require a lot of resources to influence. But like I said, the generation of a vampire is not the only factor when determining blood capacity in VTES. For proof, you need not look any further than The Kindred Most Wanted book published in 1994. (Yes, I have a copy.) In it, Kemintiri and Dylan are both listed. Kemintiri is a 4th generation vampire and Dylan is a 6th generation. If generation was the only factor, Dylan would be a 8 cap vampire in VTES...not a 6 cap. > And, in general, Cardinals are older. But you do not look for > titles to determine the age or controllability of a vampire - you > look at the capacity. You obviously don't understand the argument I was making. Titles and age are apples and oranges. A titled vampire has a higher blood capacity in VTES when compared to another vampire with the same disciplines without a title. Therefore, a vampire's political title, or lack thereof, is a factor in determining blood capacity in VTES. Noal McDonald Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI National Jyahd League Rules Team (I have an official title too!) -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > Actually, I was going on the assumption (the incorrect one, it seems. > heh) that you were relating capacity directly to generation, with the 13 > gen = 1 cap equation. I was trying to go ahead on that basis, but I see > what you meant now. Still: Consider the thinnest Caitiff as, perhaps, 15th gen. 13th gen is the default for players in the game, but they would often fit in well as one of the 3 caps with two disciplines, I feel, rather than someone like Uriah Winter with a huge disadvantage, to boot. <snip - Tracking> > That would give them the combat edge they needed, Please, do not print exact card texts, until/unless WW say they won't mind using them. -- James Coupe

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Gary J. Weiner wrote: > But in V:TM, age and generation are two seperate concepts. Yes, but only generation counts for things like Dominate - just like in V:TES, where it's only the capacity which counts for older/younger in the same contexts. -- James Coupe

myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > But the age and generation of the vampire are definitely factors into > how powerful they are as well. Absolutely. I think I didn't communicate the translation from VTM to VTES as well as I should have. > Looking at the other vampires, the 9 and 10 caps, we have to assume > that they are probably old and of at most (lowest) 6th generation. You'd be incorrect. Dylan, a 6 cap !Ventrue is 6th generation. > 4-5th generation is considered Methuselah, which is what we as > players are, so they'd be too powerful for us to control. Also incorrect. See below. > How would you explain the vampires like Keminitri, a 10 with > no political influence? She's a 4th generation vampire per the "The Kindred Most Wanted" book. > Or even a vampire like Lucretia, who is a cap 10 Primogen when her > Justicar has a lower capacity than she does? The +1 stealth is a huge bonus. Actually, Primogen are often older in age and generation than Princes in VTM. Sometimes it's healthier not wearing the big bullseye on your chest. > Tracking > Master Card > requires Assamite > While this card is in play, no minion may play S:CE cards in combat. > Any vampire may take a directed action to destroy this card. I'd suggest tighter wording and require it to be tapped to be used. > I mean really, the only Gangrel decks that people fear are > bleed-loop decks. Geh! The no-repeat-action tournament rule put that strategy to bed. But I do have some very nasty Gangrel decks that put the fear of god into a player. The Dog Pack retainer was a big help and adding Freak Drive cards to my Gangrel combat deck took the sting out of using an action to get it in play. Using Gangrel Conspiracy with !Gangrel made certain that if a vampire went down, it stayed down. Noal [ quoted text not captured ]

Hi Steve - Steve Wieck wrote: > I am going to snip what you wrote and just summarize - 1. Promo card - yes. Inquest distrubution - yes, also consider Scrye, Top Deck (if they let you) Wizard, Knights of the Dinner Table, Carpe Noctem, Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, anything having to do w/Goth Culture. Other distribution - Give one away to everyone at GenCon and Origins, and other cons with attendance of 2k or more. V:EKN Princes and tournaments - yes. Re: Mailing distribution - I think very critical for overseas players. I am willing to volunteer my store to do it, if you like. E-mail me at thethir...@earthlink.net and we could talk more. No vote from me. Just make it small and relatively insignificant. Shouldn't be a *must have* vamp. 2. Preconstructed decks. Allow me to quote Carl Pilhatsch - ----- All the starters should be fixed, with no randomness at all in them. * The new set has to include random boosters as well * It would be hugely beneficial, if the cards which are taken from the basic set and previous expansions would only appear in the pre- constructed starters and the new cards both in the starters and in boosters. The boosters should ideally contain only new cards along with errata'ed cards (if any). This would please new and old players alike. * The pre-constructed starters need to include a GOOD rulebook. ----- End quote. Only have pre-cons and boosters. The pre-cons boxes should be as wide as Pokemon boxes so as to have a nice big rulebook, instead of the tiny pamphlet that is found in old V:TES. Of course, this goes against my desire as a retailer for smaller displays, so as to be able to maximize my shelf space. But I am alwasy willing to make exceptions for Jyhad/V:TES. An idea I haven't seen mentioned - why not 5 pre-cons. Just because Magic usually only has 4, 5 is the ideal number of people to play V:TES. So 5 would be a better number. You can have starter displays of 10 starters, 2 of each. If you went with 5, I would say Settites (corrupt, with some bleed), Assamite (rush), Lasombra (vote, some pummeling), Tremere (bruise/bleed), and Tzimisce (intercept combat). Giovanni are too similar to Lasombra in their abilities, but lack hte voting power of the latter. Save Giovanni and Ravnos for the next batch, along with Nosferatu/Toreador, Malk! and Gangrel!. 3. Reprinting the Sabbat as 19 card boosters would be good, at $3.49/pack, 36 pack displays. I would shy away from starters, even though it is meant to be a stand alone set. Or go for 5 deck displays with 75 cards @$10.99, with the nice big tasty rulebook. I some what agree with Steve Bucy and the Lasombra. I just don't know what the *actual* demand for Sabbat is. Yes I said I would buy $10k worth of it if re-released. But I wonder if released, you would have folks here on this NG buying 700-1000 boxes total (that amount is pfa [pulled from air {or a$$}]), and then would sit for a while. Also, people are calling for a redistribution of the rare cards so that they were more even. As a player I agree, but from a purely capitalist swine standpoint, that was one major reason the set sold so well. I'll take an extra 20 Surprise Influence if I get another Masochism. Ok, gotta go. Chris [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10003100950300.19757- 100...@harper.uchicago.edu>, Fish Flowers <awfl...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 ravnos...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > I think I will vote for Fatima. I would rather see Khalil but he > > wasn't a choice given. The best choice IMHO would be one for each > > book. I mean really, it not only promotes the books to those that > > havent read them but it promotes V:TES as well. > > Weeeellll... One problem with the assumption that "Clan books have promo > cards" is that there are already bunches of pre-existing Clan books, which > weren't shipped with promo cards in them, or coupons for promo cards. > Presumably a reprint of (say) Setite isn't really a viable option, just to > push promo cards... and most people who care will already have their copy, > and be unwilling to buy another copy just for a card they probably don't > care about. > > Fish. > > I in no way meant that they should put one IN each book. I meant one for each book. They can still put them in INQUEST. I would just like to see one promo card for each clan. Why should just one clan get the promo card? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8ac37c$a7k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > vte...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Using the Official WotC Title (tm) are we? Scared of that. > *wry grin* Sorry - snafu in changing Deja over to the White Wolf account. > > Blood Capacity also (in this card game) represents relative age > > (generation). > > A "younger" vampire is one whose blood capacity is smaller. > > Yes, a older vampire is typically more expensive to influence than a > younger one. However, age in years has absolutely nothing to do with Is *always* more expensive to influence/control in the card game. Capacity is the direct measure of age. Which was my argument above. > generation. If a 4th generation embraced a vampire the immediate result > would be a very young 5th generation vampire that would not require a > lot of resources to influence. OK. You misunderstand the argument. If an X-aged vampire embraces, the result is a 2 capacity vampire in the card game. Embracing (in the card game) isn't really useful for determining how to influence the resulting vampire, since it is already controlled. > But like I said, the generation of a vampire is not the only factor when > determining blood capacity in VTES. For proof, you need not look any It is not a factor at all. The inherent disciplines, titles, disadvantages, and "special abilities" are the only factors in determining the blood capacity. (Plus some apparently unknown criteria cf. Anvil and several Sabbat vampires). The resulting blood capacity "determines" (is a measure of) age (in the card game). > further than The Kindred Most Wanted book published in 1994. (Yes, I > have a copy.) In it, Kemintiri and Dylan are both listed. Kemintiri is > a 4th generation vampire and Dylan is a 6th generation. If generation > was the only factor, Dylan would be a 8 cap vampire in VTES...not a 6 > cap. It is not the only factor, since it is not a factor at all. > > And, in general, Cardinals are older. But you do not look for > > titles to determine the age or controllability of a vampire - you > > look at the capacity. > > You obviously don't understand the argument I was making. Titles and > age are apples and oranges. A titled vampire has a higher blood > capacity in VTES when compared to another vampire with the same > disciplines without a title. Therefore, a vampire's political title, or > lack thereof, is a factor in determining blood capacity in VTES. The argument as you wrote is previously was that a vampire without a title was easier to influence than a vampire with a title. Which is not necessarily the case (see Monique and Caitlin). The new argument you are now making is closer to the truth. The correct formulation, however, is (as I stated): Title affects age. ("Cardinals are older") Age (exclusivley) determines ease of inluence/control. > Noal McDonald > Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI > National Jyahd League Rules Team > > (I have an official title too!) I didn't realize the NJL was now associated with WotC or White Wolf. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep [ quoted text not captured ]

>Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo card the most: Hesha is the man. Hamlet Prince of Denmark [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Gary J. Weiner wrote: > Not completely true. Generation does count for how difficult some things > you try to do with DOM or other diciplines are. But before you can > attempt them at all, you need to have enough "dots" in that dicipline, > which is a gauge of experience and is certainly related to age. Not necessarily. It is very, very easy for a starting character to have 5 dots in Dominate, at 13th gen, being newly embraced (or within a short period thereof). Unless it's changed dramaticaly in 3rd - I own a copy but don't know it by heart - just allocate all three discipline dots to it, and spend 14 freebies on two new dots. (This assumes that your Storyteller allows you to, but I am pointing out that the WW system itself sees nothing wrong with the ability to start a character off with that.) Some characters will take an age to learn level 5 Dominate - mine, for instance, since I like the first couple of levels a lot, but have no need generally for the higher levels - but others can learn it very, very quickly - childe prodigies :) -- James Coupe

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb wrote: > All the starters should be fixed, with no randomness at all in them. > * The new set has to include random boosters as well Hmm... in that case, do we want some of the new cards for, say, the assamites to not end up in pre-cons, so that you can still get players buying the boosters to find other new cards? > Only have pre-cons and boosters. The pre-cons boxes should be as wide > as Pokemon boxes so as to have a nice big rulebook, instead of the > tiny pamphlet that is found in old V:TES. An A5 magazine type format would be good, I agree. The tiny rules books make it hard to flick back and forth, and they won't lie flat on the table, either. > An idea I haven't seen mentioned - why not 5 pre-cons. Just because > Magic usually only has 4, 5 is the ideal number of people to play > V:TES. So 5 would be a better number. You can have starter displays > of 10 starters, 2 of each. If you went with 5, I would say Settites > (corrupt, with some bleed), Assamite (rush), Lasombra (vote, some > pummeling), are the Lasombra really good for a vote deck for a newbie? >As a player I agree, but from a purely capitalist > swine standpoint, that was one major reason the set sold so well. I would have to agree - leaving the rare cards rare is a Good Thing, because it encourages people to buy more cards e.g. Mark Korshavn, if no-one else :) One wonders how many crates he'll be buying :) -- James Coupe

Noal: >>Hesha would make a good 6 cap with PRE SER OBF, or maybe a 5 cap with PRE SER obf. For extra text I was thinking along of the lines of a built-in hunting ground effect.<< Much as I want to see Hesha, I do think that this is a little overpowered compared with, say, Nepata who is *pre ser obf* for 4 or Dedefra, who is *SER obf nec* for 5 with +1 hand damage. With better Serpentis than the other disciplines, I would suggest *pre SER obf* for 5 with a special ability like the Hunting Ground effect (too much?) or perhaps something unusual with retainers (he is rated 5 there too) like "at the end of any turn in which Hesha employs a retainer, untap him". Kinda like the Leather Jacket of retainers (although there are by my count only 8 retainers he could employ). My thoughts, Madman -- Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Madman2001 wrote: > With better Serpentis than the other disciplines, I would suggest *pre > SER obf* for 5 with a special ability like the Hunting Ground effect > (too much?) If Hesha is the one who owns a blood bank, then it could be done like Amadeo - earns extra blood when hunting, which is faily innocuous, and would probably allow a full five points of stats, too - perhaps, at worst, making Hesha worth 5.5 capacity. > or perhaps something unusual with retainers (he is rated 5 > there too) like "at the end of any turn in which Hesha employs a > retainer, untap him". Seems fine. -- James Coupe

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Steve Wieck wrote: > Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo card the most: If the card is only a promo: Lucita If the card appears also in a pre-con deck: Hesha; Fatima if the Setites don't get a pre-con deck. > This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse (perhaps a > Master card like someone recommended) sounds good. > but should also involve the Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which > makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing to be releasing, but I don't intend > to axe them from the future of V:TES either. They need a fair bit of work, in the form of developing new cards to embellish them as a clan. I think you could safely table the Ravnos pre-con for now, work on new Ravnos/Chimerstry cards as well as an anti-Ravnos card, and in the next batch of pre-con decks release the new, improved Ravnos and place the counter-Ravnos card in one of the other decks. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or > even Sabbat clans. [ snip ] > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, > Giovanni, and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. > Then pick up Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later > expansion. If you like, this would be fine. I think a Setite deck would be pretty popular, actually. Whatever you choose, it might be good to have a variety of victory strategies: Assamite combat Giovanni bleed with combat and necromancy support Lasombra elder politics with stealth, bleed, and combat support Tzimisce, um, intercept and combat? Setite corruption theft, with political, bleed and stealth support Maybe Malkavian S&B for the Cams? No other candidates are heavy on the bleeds, and it would give something for the Tzimisce to block... > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after > the expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think > pre-cons are the way to go to get more people into the game the > easiest and that's what's needed most. Pre-con decks would better introduce new players; players seeking to broaden their collection will be well served by Sabbat. The only problem is that there are no Quietus or Necromancy (or Serpents) cards in the Sabbat, so the Assamite and Giovanni (and Setite) pre-con players won't be getting as much as the Sabbat and Camarilla pre-con players.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, davey! wrote: > Assamite combat > Giovanni bleed with combat and necromancy support > > Lasombra elder politics with stealth, bleed, and combat support > Tzimisce, um, intercept and combat? > > Setite corruption theft, with political, bleed and stealth support > > Maybe Malkavian S&B for the Cams? No other candidates are heavy on the > bleeds, and it would give something for the Tzimisce to block... However.... The Assamites can be given some stealth, with a few Computer Hacking bleeds, if necessary - Swallowed by the Night would be a good card to give them. The Lasombra can have a few Obtenebtration stealth cards similarly, and the Setites could be given a fairly hefty amount of pre/obf stealth bleed, if wanted - or stealth vote. With regards the Tzimisce, a different strategy could be put forward, if you don't want intercept combat, if new cards were made. Also, a few bleed cards are knocking around, with a few bits of stealth, if you don't want to make the deck mono-intercept/combat (which is usually a recipe for a deck that can't oust its prey very easily :( ). -- James Coupe

James Coupe wrote: [snip] > > If you went with 5, I would say Settites > > (corrupt, with some bleed), Assamite (rush), Lasombra (vote, some > > pummeling), > > are the Lasombra really good for a vote deck for a newbie? > Good question. Most of the best voters (Ventrue, Tor, Vent!, Brujah) do not need much more help. But voting is an integral strategy. Voting is also perhaps the toughest to pull off as a newbie, since it requires a very good handle on the metagame and tactics, which usually are only learned via experience. > > One wonders how many crates he'll be buying :) > Good question! Perhaps not so many, since he will be able to trade much more readily because people will have more cards.. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Gary J. Weiner wrote: > > Not completely true. Generation does count for how difficult some things > > you try to do with DOM or other diciplines are. But before you can > > attempt them at all, you need to have enough "dots" in that dicipline, > > which is a gauge of experience and is certainly related to age. > > Not necessarily. It is very, very easy for a starting character to have 5 > dots in Dominate, at 13th gen, being newly embraced (or within a short > period thereof). Unless it's changed dramaticaly in 3rd - I own a copy > but don't know it by heart - just allocate all three discipline dots to > it, and spend 14 freebies on two new dots. I don't think that starting PCs are supposed to be newly embraced. They are supposed to have been around for some time, that's why they have 3 dots of diciplines. A newly embraced vamp starts out with one dot. Unfortunately, I haven't played in ages and I can't find my V:TM book around anywhere. > (This assumes that your > Storyteller allows you to, but I am pointing out that the WW system itself > sees nothing wrong with the ability to start a character off with that.) Well, yes. It is my experience that the storyteller games rely very heavily on the storyteller to keep them from becoming a munchkin-fest. Any, as this relates to V:TES, I think that a newly created PC would be a 2 cap or 3 cap Vamp. I'd make your 5 dot dominate vamp a 2 cap with superior DOM and a nasty flaw (maybe 0 hand damage?) to relflect the fact that they didn't spend any freebies on beefing up their other stats. A truly newly embraced vamp should be a 1 cap vamp. I think the 15th Gen vamps (no matter their cap) shouldn't be vamp cards. They could be allies. I think that would create some interesting possibilities. -- Gary J. Weiner - webm...@hatrack.net http://www.hatrack.net HatRack Web Design & Hosting - Hang your web with us ----- "And so he says I don't like the cut of your jib. And I go I says, IT'S THE ONLY JIB I GOT, BABY!" - The Evil Midnite Bomber what bombs at Midnite

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita Vote:6 > Vykos Vote:10!!! > Fatima Vote:8 > Hesha Vote:7 > Victoria Ash Vote:7 > Jan Pieterzoon Vote:7 > Theo Bell Vote:8 > > One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires > are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... > > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. > > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? Don't like too much the precon decks stuff, but if at WW you'll have do to, then the above it's not bad. > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. Yes, it's definitively a good set, like the Guide "counterpart" in the Vampire tM, much better the Sabbat Guide than the Camarilla one (just expressing appreciations about that Sabbat Guide works). Anyway, the Sabbat set reprinting is very good. Please, just have it a good distribution in my country, Italy, where the "WOC" Sabbat boxes where rare as diamonds (triggering to Gehenna..?). Please do the same as well with of other future Vtes sets. Thank you. Aemilianus, Prince of Rome. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Gary Weiner wrote: > I don't think that starting PCs are supposed to be newly embraced. Sorry, that wasn't quite what I meant, but I couldn't think quite how to express it. A starting vampire PC can have 5 dots in Dominate though and be, say, 50 years old (i.e. 50 years after embrace), whereas another vampire may never ever learn Dominate, despite "living" for 500 years. > Any, as this relates to V:TES, I think that a newly created PC would be > a 2 cap or 3 cap Vamp. I'd make your 5 dot dominate vamp a 2 cap with > superior DOM and a nasty flaw (maybe 0 hand damage?) to relflect the > fact that they didn't spend any freebies on beefing up their other > stats. But a vampire who spends their freebies on backgrounds, retainers, knowledges etc., wouldn't lose any hand damage - why should this one? > I think the 15th Gen vamps (no matter their cap) shouldn't be vamp > cards. They could be allies. I think that would create some interesting > possibilities. But 15th gen vampires can hunt, can use disciplines, and so forth. Allies, as a rule, can't. And if you start doing the built in discipline thing, why bother? -- James Coupe

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, davey! wrote: > > > > Maybe Malkavian S&B for the Cams? No other candidates are heavy on the > > bleeds, and it would give something for the Tzimisce to block... > > However.... The Assamites can be given some stealth, with a few > Computer Hacking bleeds, if necessary - Maybe. But if it's a combat deck (as most people have suggested) it's most likely the Assamite wants to be blocked. > Swallowed by the Night would be a good card to give them. Agreed (since it's flexible.) > The Lasombra can have a few Obtenebtration stealth cards similarly, True, but I think the idea is that there will be a Tzimisce deck OR a Lasombra deck... > and the Setites could be given a fairly hefty amount of pre/obf > stealth bleed, if wanted - or stealth vote. I agree, and I'd rather see a Setite deck (or any deck) than a Malk deck, but if the plan is Giovanni/Assamite/Sabbat/Camarilla, a Malk deck should be considered as a complement the Tzimisce. If the Lasombra get picked, let's just hope the Cam clan is someone without dominate... > With regards the Tzimisce, a different strategy could be put forward, > if you don't want intercept combat, if new cards were made. This would be awesome! :) But what kind of work on new cards can we expect for these decks (comments from White Wolf?) > Also, a few bleed cards are knocking around, with a few bits of > stealth, if you don't want to make the deck mono-intercept/combat > (which is usually a recipe for a deck that can't oust its prey very > easily :( ). Usually I would agree, but I think intercept is ok for the pre-cons. It's likely that some people will play the game with only two people, and intercept is a good strategy for that

[ quoted text not captured ] IIRC, they must spend more blood to use disciplines, and have a smaller blood pool (their max amount of blood point). And they also have a tendency to sprout new disciplines. All in all, they are quite different from regular Cainites. They may even be somewhat resilient to sunlight (though I'm not sure of this one). Mat

James Coupe wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Gary Weiner wrote: > > > Any, as this relates to V:TES, I think that a newly created PC would be > > a 2 cap or 3 cap Vamp. I'd make your 5 dot dominate vamp a 2 cap with > > superior DOM and a nasty flaw (maybe 0 hand damage?) to relflect the > > fact that they didn't spend any freebies on beefing up their other > > stats. > > But a vampire who spends their freebies on backgrounds, retainers, > knowledges etc., wouldn't lose any hand damage - why should this one? Dunno. Flavor maybe. My idea being that the vamp concentrated on developing her dominate dicipline to the exclusion of all else and that it would be fun to reflect that on their V:TES card. Obviously there is not an exact correlation between the V:TM game mechanical representation of a vamp PC and the V:TES card for that vamp. For example, does 1 dot in a dicipline in the RPG count as an inferior dicipline symbol on the V:TES card? If so, a starting character could have 4 or 5 inferior diciplines, making her a 6 or 7 cap vamp, while another starting character could have one or two diciplines, making a two or three (possibly four) cap vamp. I think that starting vamp characters should generally considered to be two cap vamps, with some variation allowed. > > > I think the 15th Gen vamps (no matter their cap) shouldn't be vamp > > cards. They could be allies. I think that would create some interesting > > possibilities. > > But 15th gen vampires can hunt, can use disciplines, and so > forth. Allies, as a rule, can't. And if you start doing the built in > discipline thing, why bother? I haven't read "Time of Thin Blood", but 15th gen vamps have some interesting differences. They are somewhat immune to sunlight, use more blood to employ their diciplines , etc. This just spurred the idea that they might make interesting allies, instead of regular vamps. -- Gary J. Weiner \ "We've got a blind date with Destiny...and webm...@hatrack.net \ it looks like she's ordered the lobster." http://www.hatrack.net \ -The Shoveler, "Mystery Men" "Hang Your Web With Us!"\

i'd like to vote on the promo vampire. my favorite would be hesha. he is pretty cool and the setites definitely need a decent vampire. On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:07:58 -0500, "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me >bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and >then ask for opinions from there. > >1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as >soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo >card the most: > >Lucita >Vykos >Fatima >Hesha >Victoria Ash >Jan Pieterzoon >Theo Bell > >One vote only to the newsgroup please. If you don't know who these vampires >are then allow me to sell you on reading our clan novel series.... > >We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is >a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the >card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative >to distribution of the card. > >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > >These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a >problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions >would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of >project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this >size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the >V:TES fan base more). > >There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as >fully playable as others. > >My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards >for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might >accomplish both at once. > >Concerns are: >1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck >would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse >(perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either. >3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely >recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even >Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in >recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. >Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in >terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the >assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they >about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, >and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up >Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > >Comments folks? > > > >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game >with, then I'll change my tune here. > >Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. > >Thanks >Steve Wieck >White Wolf > > >

i'd like to see hesha as a promo card. he is pretty cool and with only 10 vampires, the setites definitely need an additional decent vampire.

In article <8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl>, steve...@white-wolf.com says... > >Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me >bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and >then ask for opinions from there. Thank you for the update. >1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as >soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo >card the most: > >Lucita >Vykos >Fatima >Hesha >Victoria Ash >Jan Pieterzoon >Theo Bell As a gameplayer, the promo vamp chosen does not matter (but I prefer a Non-Camarilla). >We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is >a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the >card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative >to distribution of the card. I understand how difficult it is to support a mass-mailing campaign. An insert in Inquest is a reasonable alternative. However, I would like to see additional copies of the promo card distributed at tournaments. This would give incentive for more tournament participation. It should be possible to set-up distribution at Conventions (possibly as prize support). >2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined >right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 >independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >(Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > >These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a >problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions >would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of >project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this >size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the >V:TES fan base more). > >There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as >fully playable as others. > >My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards >for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might >accomplish both at once. > >Concerns are: >1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck >would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? The 4 independant clans do play quite differently, but none of the strategies are unique. Assamites generally employ on rush strategy, focusing on long range combat. Giovanni generally employ on a bruise & bleed strategy. They also have some neat recycling tricks. Followers of Set often choose to employ a strategy of politics or stealth & bleed. They also corrupt vampires really well. Ravnos are a bag of tricks, which are fun to play but without focus. Most Ravnos players choose to employ an intercept combat strategy. Lasombra have a lot of strategies available: stealth and bleed, politics, or bruise & bleed. Tzimisce are much more successful at the intercept combat strategy than Ravnos. >2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse >(perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the >Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing >to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES >either. I fully support the attempt to mimic the WOD storyline. With proper development, you should be able to maintain the plot without unbalancing the game. The game currently consists of several "clan hoser" cards that make it difficult for another player to use that clan (most people despise these clan hosers). A good set of playtesters should be able to provide alternatives. >3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely >recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even >Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in >recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. >Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in >terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the >assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they >about?) I know it's a rhetorical question, but I suggest letting yor marketing department answer that one anyway. > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, >and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up >Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > >Comments folks? Of all the Sabbat clans, the Lasombra clan is already quite balanced. It could use a few more low-medium vampires, but it's strategies are already well developed. Furthermore, the Lasombra share 2 disciplines with Giovanni (potence and dominate). This is good if you want to ease the new player's learning curve, but this is bad if you want to represent four distinct strategies. A lot of people are suggesting that the four clans be: Assamites, Giovanni, Lasombra, and Tremere. I think selecting 3 clans that all share Dominate is a little redundant. I would rather see the Tzimisce represented as the Sabbat clan. My preferences for the Camarilla clan would be Tremere or Nosferatu. I'd still rather have The Followers of Set included instead of any Camarilla clans. >3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the >expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are >the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's >needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be >done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people >feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game >with, then I'll change my tune here. It's difficult to believe that the pre-cons are easier to develop. You will have to be retrieving cards from three or four sets just to construct the strategies. Nonetheless, I support the decision of making the Sabbat reprint secondary. The Sabbat cards will stay in demand. However, I don't think the cards will sell to new players without correcting the packaging problems. The Sabbat boosters were a poor attempt at setting up a "stand-alone" expansion. Perhaps the Sabbat reprint should provide starter decks (pre-con or no pre-con) and instruction manuals. Greg Faulkner

On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, davey! wrote: > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > > > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, davey! wrote: > > > > > > Maybe Malkavian S&B for the Cams? No other candidates are heavy on the > > > bleeds, and it would give something for the Tzimisce to block... > > > > However.... The Assamites can be given some stealth, with a few > > Computer Hacking bleeds, if necessary - > > Maybe. But if it's a combat deck (as most people have suggested) it's > most likely the Assamite wants to be blocked. Being able to pick your target is useful. I would also advocate away from making *any* deck entirely mono-function. True, an Assamite deck should have good combat abilities - but you need to make the players aware of other aspects of the game - like the need to bleed their prey. > > The Lasombra can have a few Obtenebtration stealth cards similarly, > > True, but I think the idea is that there will be a Tzimisce deck OR a > Lasombra deck... True, true. However, White Wolf's plans are not cast in stone. If they can see a good marketting opportunity, and a useful set of decks, and a viable option for themselves, I cannot see why such a generally flexible and canny company would not consider doing, as has been suggested, say 5 decks - Assamite, Giovanni, Lasombra, Tzimisce and Tremere, say - my personal favourite 5, if it came to it (assuming that they still find they cannot market the Setites). > > > and the Setites could be given a fairly hefty amount of pre/obf > > stealth bleed, if wanted - or stealth vote. > > I agree, and I'd rather see a Setite deck (or any deck) than a Malk deck, > but if the plan is Giovanni/Assamite/Sabbat/Camarilla, a Malk deck should > be considered as a complement the Tzimisce. I would *prefer* that pure stealth and bleed were not the first Malk deck a player came across. And the Malks need no new cards, whereas other clans could benefit from them - the Tremere being my perennial example, but I can see other clans who would find cards 'useful'. And if none of the decks are ludicrously heavy stealth, giving the Tzimisce good (but not heavy) intercept, and A.N Other Strategy would be a Good Thing (tm), IMO. > > Also, a few bleed cards are knocking around, with a few bits of > > stealth, if you don't want to make the deck mono-intercept/combat > > (which is usually a recipe for a deck that can't oust its prey very > > easily :( ). > > Usually I would agree, but I think intercept is ok for the pre-cons. > It's likely that some people will play the game with only two people, and > intercept is a good strategy for that A playable strategy, true. but my comments earlier in this post about mono-theme decks stands. Many players find that combat is inviable in tournament, or large group, play. I would be loathe to give a newbie a deck which did well in 1 on 1, but didn't do well in larger groups too - since they may come to the conclusion that the game just isn't worth playing, if all their cards suck when they sit down at a five player table. If they see that strategies that aren't intercept *are* working, they start to think, and plot, and scheme, and alter deck etc. etc. etc. - which is how the game should be played. -- James Coupe

On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Mat wrote: > IIRC, they must spend more blood to use disciplines, and have a smaller > blood pool (their max amount of blood point). Text as per Antoinette Du Champ, then - pay may to use X. > And they also have a > tendency to sprout new disciplines. Not really possible to implement in V:TES. > All in all, they are quite different > from regular Cainites. They can still hunt, can still be of a clan (though many will be dismissed as Caitiff, because of an embarrassed sire), and still do many vampiric things. They have merits and flaws compared to vampires, but they tend to be more vampire than human, IME. I do not, however, have much (well, any really) of the *recent* V:tM literature on the subject. -- James Coupe

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.000309...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000 carlos_...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Hm, Inquest is hard to get hold on here in Vienna, is the situation > > different in other European countries? > > Hard to get at all, not especially. But difficult to guarantee getting in > large quantities (because, say, 5 Jyhad players from one area are all > going to want to get a copy), I find, yes. Most places only buy a couple > of copies of any magazine like that, IME. I would like to have all players have the possibility to get hold of a promo vamp. I'm not so sure that Inquest (or any magazine) will reach all players all over the world. > > > Why not send the Promo cards along with the regular shipments to the > > retailers who sell White-Wolf products? Whenever a customer buys a White > > Wolf item, they get a Promo card along. :) > > It can be seen as a White Wolf cash cow, however. Ok, I see. It was not a well thought out suggestion from me. :( >(snipped) > >>(snipped) > > International Reply Coupons used to be the standard (I heard something > about them being replaced, though). > > However, one option would be to delegate the posting of cards to a trusted > third party who was willing to give up their time to do it. That way, WW > only have to post a few hundred promos to one person, rather than 1 to a > few hundred people. Agreed. WW would go best if they use 3 different methods of distributing the promos: 1. Put them in mags (Inquest, ... how many other world-wide mags are there at all?) 2. Have self adressed envelopes with international reply coupons being sent to WW. 3. Let the VEKN distribute the promos. The Princes can give them out at tournaments, or can give each member of their playgroup copies. I think that most players would want to have 4 copies. I think normally if you take 4 copies of a single vampire into your crypt, it's rather safe to have one in your starting uncontrolled region. > (snipped) > > > How large do you intend this set to be? Will there be all disciplines > > used by the intended clans in the set? Or only the clan-specific (i.e. > > Nec, Qui, Vic/Obt) ones? > > If you have the cards only in preconstructed boosters, you can have a set > of cards necessary for each in each one - so the Assamites get their > Disguised Weapons, Bum's Rushes, Blur and Blood Agony, but the Setites get > Lost in Crowds, Legal Manipulations and Form of the Serpent. (Or whatever > cards.) I think that would be the best solution. If the new players like more of the old stuff, they'd be required to buy basic set and *Sabbat*, which by the time the new expansion is released, should ideally be ready reprinted waiting to be sold to *both* newbies and veterans. :) > > > Absolutely right. I would have started with Camarilla, though, but it's > > definitely good that way. > > With the Camarilla, of course, whilst they're still hard to get in some > places, there is a *lot* of Jyhad out there. Unless you start making > fairly hefty changes, a lot of players don't need to buy new cards. And > if you want new players, that's a *very* hefty investment in advertising > and publicising it by White Wolf needed. > > Sabbat is hard to get everywhere. It can be pressed just as hard as the > Camarilla set could be (for advertising it) but the old players can buy it > also, because they need more of the cards. Agreed. But Sabbat would have to be altered in regards to distribution (i.e. smaller boosters, perhaps starters with rule-book) (snipped) > > > Here in our group, the veteran players have tons of Sabbat, they > > wouldn't be likely to buy heavy into it. > > > > But they would buy heavily into cards they already got from > Jyhad/V:TES? How little Jyhad/V:TES do you have? It sounds like not very > much. Most players have tons of Jyhad (I myself bought 15+ boxes of booster), but few VTES. I still only have one *full* set of VTES cards. I wouldn't mind buying a 3rd edition. *shrug* If Sabbat is re-released, I wouldn't mind too... There just isn't any Jyhad nor VTES left to buy here in Vienna. And if another shipment comes in, it's never in enough quantity, all boxes are already sold the minute they touch the shelves. :) Without Jyhad/VTES, new players won't touch the game, unless tutored by a veteran, cause without a rulebook you are hopelessly lost. Period. > > It's generally the case, in most other places from the impression I get on > here, that the rest of the world is mostly the other way round. I always tend to say Vienna is different, you know. :) The Tremere are doing strange things here, they won't let us get Starters (of either type) to spread the game appropriatly. What plans do they heck out? Carl

> > > Noal McDonald > > Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI > > National Jyahd League Rules Team > > > > (I have an official title too!) > > I didn't realize the NJL was now associated with WotC or White Wolf. *Grin* Have I told you that I like your style of humour? (Of course I have...) :) However, I agree that there is a difference between official organisations (like V:EKN) and unofficial ones (like NJL). And this should be clearly distinguishable(sp?). > -- > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: > http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. Carl Pilhatsch (VEKN membership director)

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > True, true. However, White Wolf's plans are not cast in stone. If they > can see a good marketting opportunity, and a useful set of decks, and a > viable option for themselves, I cannot see why such a generally flexible > and canny company would not consider doing, as has been suggested, say 5 > decks - Assamite, Giovanni, Lasombra, Tzimisce and Tremere, say - my > personal favourite 5, if it came to it (assuming that they still find they > cannot market the Setites). A thought occurs. Since 5 is the default number of players in a tournament, 5 decks would be a good thing. Hmm... I can see an interesting tournament possibility with constructed decks, though it would take a while, where each player has to play each deck once. Now, *that* might be a good marketting opportunity for WW. -- James Coupe

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Carl Pilhatsch wrote: > I would like to have all players have the possibility to get hold of a > promo vamp. I'm not so sure that Inquest (or any magazine) will reach > all players all over the world. No, it probably won't. However, distributing it via Insight *as well* would be a Good Thing - since it ups the profile of the game. > > It can be seen as a White Wolf cash cow, however. > > Ok, I see. It was not a well thought out suggestion from me. :( If it was done solely this way, no, it wouldn't be. Again, it becomes another possibility to use, as well as anything else. *snip - options 1 and 3, both of which seem sensible* > 2. Have self adressed envelopes with international reply coupons being > sent to WW. They have already suggested they would be unwilling to do this, which with a *relatively* small company, is understandable. However, if, say, there were a few people worldwide who *would* be willing to do this, it would be good - say, just off the top of my head (not attempting to make anyone do it), Robert Goudie in the US, Salem in Australia, myself or you within Europe, etc. > I think that most players would want to have 4 copies. I think normally > if you take 4 copies of a single vampire into your crypt, it's rather > safe to have one in your starting uncontrolled region. IMO, whatever the promo cards are, tehy should not be cards like Beast or Wynn, where their special is kick ass. I would much prefer the cards to be highly, highly playable (like Marianna Gilbert is - PRE cel is great), but not killer cards, or cards with great specials - such that they can be dropped into any deck revolving around that theme, but a deck without them won't be at a disadvantage. > I think that would be the best solution. If the new players like more of > the old stuff, they'd be required to buy basic set and *Sabbat*, Well, not necessarily. Let us just assume, for the sake of ease, that we only have three pre-constrcuted starters - and the clans and strategies I pick here are merely for the sake of ease. In one starter, there are a lot of cards useful for Rush decks - say, Bum's Rushes, Fake Outs, one or two Taste of Vitae and so forth - perhaps an Assamite deck. In another starter, there are, say, the Nosferatu playing Obfuscate-Animalism-Potence - drawing out the beast, swallowed by the night, undead strength, and with a bit of intercept from Raven Spy, and a few things like Army of Rats and Night Moves, too etc. Then in the *third* starter, there are the Lasombra, playing Obt-Dom stealth and bleed. Now, I have the Lasombra and think "Cool, potence". So if I buy the Assamite deck, I have a few more combat bits - Bum's Rush, Fake Out. If I buy the Nosferatu deck, I get some more Potence. Then I throw them together and make a Lasombra potence deck. Not the best possible example, but it could work. If you don't, say, give the Giovanni many dominate bleed cards, but leave that to the Lasombra, you can mix and match etc. etc. > Agreed. But Sabbat would have to be altered in regards to distribution > (i.e. smaller boosters, perhaps starters with rule-book) True, true. But WW have got to put a lot of effort into the repackagind and labelling anyway. > > But they would buy heavily into cards they already got from > > Jyhad/V:TES? How little Jyhad/V:TES do you have? It sounds like not > very > > much. > > Most players have tons of Jyhad (I myself bought 15+ boxes of booster), > but few VTES. I still only have one *full* set of VTES cards. Having cards in either very close to or more than 5 digits worth, I still don't have a full set of V:TES.... Though I do have a full set of Jyhad and Dark Sovereigns, and all the vampires. > Without Jyhad/VTES, new players won't touch the game, But if you rereleased Sabbat in a newbie friendly format - the Pokemon sized distribution people suggested, with box and instructions etc.... In that case, either V:TES or Sabbat would be workable, don't you think? -- James Coupe

James Coupe wrote: > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Carl Pilhatsch wrote: (snipped) > *snip - options 1 and 3, both of which seem sensible* > > 2. Have self adressed envelopes with international reply coupons being > > sent to WW. > > They have already suggested they would be unwilling to do this, which with > a *relatively* small company, is understandable. > > However, if, say, there were a few people worldwide who *would* be willing > to do this, it would be good - say, just off the top of my head (not > attempting to make anyone do it), Robert Goudie in the US, Salem in > Australia, myself or you within Europe, etc. This would be a Good Thing. For Europe I suggest yourself, as I'm involved in other important VEKN stuff, you know... :) > > I think that most players would want to have 4 copies. I think normally > > if you take 4 copies of a single vampire into your crypt, it's rather > > safe to have one in your starting uncontrolled region. > > IMO, whatever the promo cards are, tehy should not be cards like Beast or > Wynn, where their special is kick ass. I would much prefer the cards to > be highly, highly playable (like Marianna Gilbert is - PRE cel is great), > but not killer cards, or cards with great specials - such that they can be > dropped into any deck revolving around that theme, but a deck without them > won't be at a disadvantage. That's exactly what I'm thinking. However a cool special ability with flavour would be apreciated. If it's a high capacity vamp (8+) it would't be taken into every deck. > > I think that would be the best solution. If the new players like more of > > the old stuff, they'd be required to buy basic set and *Sabbat*, > > Well, not necessarily. > > Let us just assume, for the sake of ease, that we only have three > pre-constrcuted starters - and the clans and strategies I pick here are > merely for the sake of ease. > > In one starter, there are a lot of cards useful for Rush decks - say, > Bum's Rushes, Fake Outs, one or two Taste of Vitae and so forth - perhaps > an Assamite deck. In another starter, there are, say, the Nosferatu > playing Obfuscate-Animalism-Potence - drawing out the beast, swallowed by > the night, undead strength, and with a bit of intercept from Raven Spy, > and a few things like Army of Rats and Night Moves, too etc. Then in the > *third* starter, there are the Lasombra, playing Obt-Dom stealth and > bleed. > > Now, I have the Lasombra and think "Cool, potence". So if I buy the > Assamite deck, I have a few more combat bits - Bum's Rush, Fake Out. If I > buy the Nosferatu deck, I get some more Potence. Then I throw them > together and make a Lasombra potence deck. > > Not the best possible example, but it could work. If you don't, say, give > the Giovanni many dominate bleed cards, but leave that to the Lasombra, > you can mix and match etc. etc. Well, of course that is an easy way to expand decks. What I was thinking about were cards that are not going to find their way into the new set (e.g. Conquer the Beast for ANI) that would be found in VTES or Sabbat respectively. They'd buy it to have a greater selection. That would be a good thing IMO. > > Agreed. But Sabbat would have to be altered in regards to distribution > > (i.e. smaller boosters, perhaps starters with rule-book) > > True, true. But WW have got to put a lot of effort into the repackagind > and labelling anyway. They'd have to do it. They must invest money to be competitive and have reasonable results (i.e. profit). > > > But they would buy heavily into cards they already got from > > > Jyhad/V:TES? How little Jyhad/V:TES do you have? It sounds like not > > very > > > much. > > > > Most players have tons of Jyhad (I myself bought 15+ boxes of booster), > > but few VTES. I still only have one *full* set of VTES cards. > > Having cards in either very close to or more than 5 digits worth, I still > don't have a full set of V:TES.... Though I do have a full set of Jyhad > and Dark Sovereigns, and all the vampires. Well... I have DS and AH 4 times complete. :) But I'm really lacking VTES. :( > > Without Jyhad/VTES, new players won't touch the game, > > But if you rereleased Sabbat in a newbie friendly format - the Pokemon > sized distribution people suggested, with box and instructions etc.... In > that case, either V:TES or Sabbat would be workable, don't you think? Yes, I agree with you. Though I would have loved a 3rd edition being released, I have no doubts that Sabbat, if reworked, can do the same for new players. The key is making it "newbie-friendly" (big pre-const. starter, with big rulebooks, ...) while also being worthwile for veterans. If WW thinks Sabbat can do the trick, then by all means it should be done! :) Carl

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.00031...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > <snip - Tracking> > > That would give them the combat edge they needed, > > Please, do not print exact card texts, until/unless WW say they won't > mind using them. Oops. You're right. Got excited there. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > But the age and generation of the vampire are definitely factors > > into how powerful they are as well. > > Absolutely. I think I didn't communicate the translation from VTM to > VTES as well as I should have. Nor did I. I'm thinking we're saying the same thing with different words and from different perspectives. =) > > Looking at the other vampires, the 9 and 10 caps, we have to assume > > that they are probably old and of at most (lowest) 6th generation. > > You'd be incorrect. Dylan, a 6 cap !Ventrue is 6th generation. Well, you may have me on this one. But a lot of the translation from VtM to VTES is hard to follow sometimes. I'm not familiar with Dylan in VtM. Perhaps he was in torpor for a period or for some other reason did not develop his skills/disciplines? Is he very old? *shrug* > > 4-5th generation is considered Methuselah, which is what we as > > players are, so they'd be too powerful for us to control. > > Also incorrect. See below. > > > How would you explain the vampires like Keminitri, a 10 with > > no political influence? > > She's a 4th generation vampire per the "The Kindred Most Wanted" book. Well, here is one the arguments I have. She shouldn't be in the game, in my opinion. She's another Etrius. I don't think we should be able to control either. > > Or even a vampire like Lucretia, who is a cap 10 Primogen when her > > Justicar has a lower capacity than she does? > > The +1 stealth is a huge bonus. Yep. Here we're talking about VTES totally separate from VtM. The bonus given to her warrants the cost hike. I agree. > Actually, Primogen are often older in age and generation than Princes > in VTM. Sometimes it's healthier not wearing the big bullseye on your > chest. I agree. I was just pointing out that the political power of the vamps doesn't directly correlate to their capacity. It's hard to say sometimes. The Cardinals and Justicars in VtM are usually quite old, and of a low generation. Thus you have reason for the high capacities. But you could also have a younger vampire given that title, and it's the title that warrants the high capacity. Tricky with some of them. > > Tracking > I'd suggest tighter wording and require it to be tapped to be used. Yeah. I'll stop posting card texts though. Wasn't thinking there. The idea is what I'd like to see though. > > I mean really, the only Gangrel decks that people fear are > > bleed-loop decks. Geh! > > The no-repeat-action tournament rule put that strategy to bed. But I > do have some very nasty Gangrel decks that put the fear of god into a > player. The Dog Pack retainer was a big help and adding Freak Drive > cards to my Gangrel combat deck took the sting out of using an action > to get it in play. Using Gangrel Conspiracy with !Gangrel made > certain that if a vampire went down, it stayed down. Dog Pack helps, but like you say it's a pain to get into play. That and it's hard to get Dog Packs. I only have 2, and the action to bring them out is almost always blocked. A Master card would help with that. Sudden Reversals are out there, but they're not nearly as common as intercept. As to the !Gangrel, yessir. I have a protean/celerity deck that I use them in that is quite mean. That doesn't help the Gangrel though. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > That's a keen idea. She'd have to be a 9 cap though, being the > > childe of Thetmes. No prob. Just throw aus on her as well and you > > have it. > > Not necessarily. If Thetmes has gone up a generation since embracing > her, he would have been 9, so she would have been 8. Ahh.. very good point. Forgot about diablerie. Of course, he's an Assamite, and under the no diablerie curse (or was at time of printing). Still, there are other ways, I'm sure. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Noal McDonald > > Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI > > National Jyahd League Rules Team > > > > (I have an official title too!) > > I didn't realize the NJL was now associated with WotC or White Wolf. It doesn't have to be for me to claim an "official" title. Not to mention, I was poking a bit of fun and not being serious at all. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > I would *prefer* that pure stealth and bleed were not the first Malk > deck a player came across. And the Malks need no new cards, whereas > other clans could benefit from them - the Tremere being my perennial > example, but I can see other clans who would find cards 'useful'. I'm wondering what new cards you'd like to see for the Tremere. I think, as you do with the Malks, that the Tremere need no new cards. They would be fun to introduce again, just for the variety that Thaumaturgy adds, but get the feeling that you and some others here on the NG are wanting something for them. I'm curious. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm surprised you think the Tremere need no new cards - can you make a sufficiently tournament-viable deck out of them? (that actually uses THA combat?) Their disciplines are an excellent mix and their vampire selection is pretty good too, but Thaumaturgy suffers greatly from the need to gain a 2nd round of combat to be anything worth fearing. This makes S:CE even more effective against them, since if they are using Trap and don't have one in hand, you have the option of saving your S:CE or dodges until they DO play a Trap. At a minimum, they need three cards to be effective - Trap, Theft, Walk. This is a little hard on the poor vampire doing the combat, since he'll end up down 2 blood unless he started out not-full. So most Tremere decks toss in maneuvers - now you're at four cards and it starts to get iffy to have all four cards in your hand PLUS bleed or intercept cards. If you want to stop S:CE/dodge, you need DOM and Thoughts Betrayed, which cuts down the vampire selection, costs an extra two blood off the top, and means you need FIVE cards in hand - difficult at best. I'd personally like to see an AUS card that costs 1 blood, prevents dodges for the combat at inferior, and prevents S:CE for the combat at superior. This would help the Toreador, Tzimisce, and Tremere out enormously, all of whom have solid combat disciplines.. yet make crummy combat decks. (also note that it would force one to be aware of his opponent's deck by preventing one OR the other.) Wording could be sorted out, but think Fast Reaction and work from there. "Read Intentions" would be a great title for this card, except it's already in. =) -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > I'm surprised you think the Tremere need no new cards - can you make a > sufficiently tournament-viable deck out of them? (that actually uses > THA combat?) Using Fortitude, I can. Dawn Op, Skin of Night, Weather Control is a particularly nasty combo. You take 1 point of damage and they take 1 point of agg damage before maneuvers are ever declared. Beats IG and S:CE decks alike. In a For-Dom-Tha deck, it's not terribly hard to bleed them for an obscene amount and send them to torpor if they attempt to block. It's also easy to fit in enough damage prevention to deal with a dedicated IG deck. Of course, no IG = Burst of Sunlight/Skin of Night when they Bum's Rush you. > Their disciplines are an excellent mix and their vampire selection > is pretty good too, but Thaumaturgy suffers greatly from the need to > gain a 2nd round of combat to be anything worth fearing. Shotgun Ritual changed that. Adding that to Thoughts Betrayed and it doesn't matter how many maneuvers they have. Thaumaturgy typically doesn't care what range you're at. > This makes S:CE even more effective against them, since if they are > using Trap and don't have one in hand, you have the option of saving > your S:CE or dodges until they DO play a Trap. Depends on how many presses they pack in their deck. After all, Dead End Alley doesn't require a discipline and is replaced immediately. Great card for a Tremere deck. > At a minimum, they need three cards to be effective - Trap, Theft, > Walk. Think _outside_ the box. > If you want to stop S:CE/dodge, you need DOM and Thoughts Betrayed, > which cuts down the vampire selection, costs an extra two blood off > the top, and means you need FIVE cards in hand - difficult at best. Where do you get five cards? Shotgun, Thoughts Betrayed, Walk. Three cards, no maneuvers needed. Yeah, THA and DOM is required, but if you're building a deck for it, it's not that difficult to set up. I'll grant you that Tremere isn't the best combat clan, but it's not impossible. Either way, I'm generally a bigger of fan of the "whatever you do, you get drained of blood/Society of Leopold" strategy. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > Noal McDonald > > > Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI > > > National Jyahd League Rules Team > > > > > > (I have an official title too!) > > > > I didn't realize the NJL was now associated with WotC or White Wolf. > > It doesn't have to be for me to claim an "official" title. Not to > mention, I was poking a bit of fun and not being serious at all. Well, yeah. Likewise, myself. I found your statement particularly "fun" in light of the overly strict criteria for "officialness" you posted last week. (http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=593946574) Keep up the good work. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Carl Pilhatsch wrote: > If WW thinks Sabbat can do the trick, then by all means it should be done! :) Well, I'm partly thinking that the Sabbat seems to be highly popular among V:tM players - and so easier to market, to them. However, my experience would also suggest that the Setites would be a popular clan - so perhaps I am wrong. Ultimately, the decision rests with WW, of course - and they know what their own sales figures are. -- James Coupe

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > Ahh.. very good point. Forgot about diablerie. Of course, he's an > Assamite, and under the no diablerie curse (or was at time of printing). > Still, there are other ways, I'm sure. Yep. The Assamites use a blood magic to mimic diablerie, collecting the blood of their deceased person. However, it takes a lot of blood and, IIRC, only occurs at Alamut. -- James Coupe

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > I'm wondering what new cards you'd like to see for the Tremere. Cards to make them a viable clan. :( For pure rush, they fail, because of S:CE/Dodge. For intercept-combat, they fail, becasue of S:CE/Dodge. For bruise and bleed, they fail because of S:CE/Dodge. etc. etc. etc. Of all the clans who are supposed to be combat viable, they aren't. :( -- James Coupe

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > be sorted out, but think Fast Reaction and work from there. "Read > Intentions" would be a great title for this card, except it's already > in. =) Foresight, Forewarning, Psychic Block, etc. etc. etc. My favourite (silly) name is "Knowledge of Combat Yet to Come" (ackn. Charles Dickens) -- James Coupe

In article <8a91on$2o2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <mdu...@nextra.sk> wrote: > >> 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out >as >> soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the >promo >> card the most: >> >> Lucita >> Vykos >> Fatima >> Hesha >> Victoria Ash >> Jan Pieterzoon >> Theo Bell Hesha. I think he makes the best Vtes vamp, and the Assamites could really use a decent mid-cap. >> We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as I'd never heard of Inquest until I read this thread... Read into that what you may. >> 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm >inclined >> right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on >the 4 >> independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these >> (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with >boosters. >I suggest Assamites, Giovanni, Tzimisce and Tremere. I would be good >idea to include the errated cards in the decks (or at least some not-so- >common sabbat commons). I agree with this poster's suggestion. >>2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD >storyline. >Maybe, it would be worth to make entirely new type of cards - events. I think an additional rules change would be a poor idea. I think such story tie-ins can be done using the existing rule set. -- Robert Granat Lackey of the Schnitzel Industry

rag...@ugcs.caltech.edu () wrote: > Hesha. I think he makes the best Vtes vamp, and the Assamites could > really use a decent mid-cap. Uh...Hesha is a Setite, not an Assamite. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > Shotgun Ritual changed that. Adding that to Thoughts Betrayed and it > doesn't matter how many maneuvers they have. Woohoo! 4 blood! If you're spending that much, you cannot even begin to compete with the small combat decks, since you really need a vampire of at least 5 capacity, or using Ankara Citadel (which was expensive anyway). > > If you want to stop S:CE/dodge, you need DOM and Thoughts Betrayed, > > which cuts down the vampire selection, costs an extra two blood off > > the top, and means you need FIVE cards in hand - difficult at best. > > Where do you get five cards? > > Shotgun, Thoughts Betrayed, Walk. Three cards, no maneuvers needed. Fine. How are you going to repeat that, since you could only get 1 blood (tops, unless your the Reverend) from that with a Taste of Vitae? What you assert is a perfectly viable combo. But not a repeatable one, without a lot of blood gain, which all has to come from somewhere. -- James Coupe

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> Shotgun, Thoughts Betrayed, Walk. Three cards, no maneuvers needed. > > Fine. How are you going to repeat that, since you could only get 1 > blood (tops, unless your the Reverend) from that with a Taste of > Vitae? Amaranth. *grin* Yeah, I know...that'll _really_ limit the odds of me repeating it. You're right about it not being a sustainable strategy. Well, maybe with Slaughtering the Herd. Okay...maybe not. That's why I discussed For-Dom-Tha first. But even that makes a better bruise and bleed deck by far than a rush deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > with Slaughtering the Herd. Okay...maybe not. That's why I discussed > For-Dom-Tha first. But even that makes a better bruise and bleed deck > by far than a rush deck. Indeed. The Tremere should be superb at intercept combat, too. But aren't :( Whilst Thaumaturgy can be used in viable combat decks, it would be good to see Walk of Flame, Cauldron of Blood, Eldritch Glimmer etc. to become usable cards, as they must have been intended. -- James Coupe

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:12:27 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: >> I'm surprised you think the Tremere need no new cards - can you make a >> sufficiently tournament-viable deck out of them? (that actually uses >> THA combat?) > >Using Fortitude, I can. Dawn Op, Skin of Night, Weather Control is a >particularly nasty combo. You take 1 point of damage and they take 1 >point of agg damage before maneuvers are ever declared. Beats IG and >S:CE decks alike. That is not THA combat, that is Dawn Op combat. You are describing an extreme corner case. This also doesn't work well when IG decks come and rush you unless you've overloaded your Fortitude - and TS/IG/Blur decks tend to beat you silly. What I'm looking for is a combat deck that lets Tremere be Tremere - not one that relies on them having Fortitude scattered everywhere, with Bursts of Sunlight and WC being the only actual THA cards in use. The Brujah and Nosferatu seem to have no problem being themselves. The Gangrel can use Scorpion Sting or Dog Pack much more easily than the Tremere can use Thoughts Betrayed. >> Their disciplines are an excellent mix and their vampire selection >> is pretty good too, but Thaumaturgy suffers greatly from the need to >> gain a 2nd round of combat to be anything worth fearing. > >Shotgun Ritual changed that. Adding that to Thoughts Betrayed and it >doesn't matter how many maneuvers they have. Thaumaturgy typically >doesn't care what range you're at. Costing an additional 2 blood on top of that. Now you've spent 4 blood BEFORE doing any damage at all, and you'd better come up with something impressive to get the blood back on yourself. Walk of Flame isn't going to cut it - I don't care to spend 4 blood to ping one guy into torpor with 2 agg. >> This makes S:CE even more effective against them, since if they are >> using Trap and don't have one in hand, you have the option of saving >> your S:CE or dodges until they DO play a Trap. > >Depends on how many presses they pack in their deck. After all, Dead >End Alley doesn't require a discipline and is replaced immediately. >Great card for a Tremere deck. *chuckle* If you recall, I posted a deck here about three months ago that made extensive use of Dead-End Alley as a pile of weenie THA rushers. It suffers greatly v. S:CE, of course, but a lot less so v. Dodge. A better card overall is Apportation, but that is one of the reasons I push for Sabbat reprints - that card should've been in the base set, instead of Movement of the Mind. >> At a minimum, they need three cards to be effective - Trap, Theft, >> Walk. > >Think _outside_ the box. Theft, Alley, Walk. Still 3 cards. or TB, Shotgun, Walk for too much blood. Still 3 cards. Please don't spout bullshit about "think outside the box", by the way. It's one of the most overused, insulting, and misused phrases to come out of the 90's, and it makes me want to puke just to hear it, because it's INVARIABLY recited by someone who thinks his own pet way is something new and improved and that NOBODY ELSE could possibly be as smart as he is to figure it out. Check deja for "Somebody get an Ashtray". =P >> If you want to stop S:CE/dodge, you need DOM and Thoughts Betrayed, >> which cuts down the vampire selection, costs an extra two blood off >> the top, and means you need FIVE cards in hand - difficult at best. > >Where do you get five cards? Let's see, you snipped the paragraph about maneuvers, which is where I get the 4th card. TB, maneuver, Theft, Trap or Alley, Walk makes five and generally costs you 1 blood for the 2nd round punch you take. Shotgun, TB, Walk means you get punched for 1 - now you have spent FIVE BLOOD off your vampire to remove one blood from theirs and put them in torpor. Ulugh Beg can do this twice and then must hunt. (shudder) >Shotgun, Thoughts Betrayed, Walk. Three cards, no maneuvers needed. >Yeah, THA and DOM is required, but if you're building a deck for it, >it's not that difficult to set up. Spend four blood, get a vamp in torpor that can rescue itself next round. This looks like worthless combat to me. How about you? >I'll grant you that Tremere isn't the best combat clan, but it's not >impossible. Either way, I'm generally a bigger of fan of the "whatever >you do, you get drained of blood/Society of Leopold" strategy. Which isn't especially tourney-viable as it tends to fall over to light intercept and/or 2nd tradition, both of which are reasonably common these days. This is why I'd like to see the Tremere get some new cards. They were obviously designed to be a bruise-bleed clan, or an intercept-bruise clan. They can't do either, because making their combat work takes up so much of your deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:21:06 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Heh. If it was to be a THA card, it could be "Magickal Superglue", with artwork of a guy's feet stuck to the ground while someone winds up with a big kaboom-lookin' fireball. But that would be excessively silly. (Although Potence's skill-card artwork from the Sabbat qualifies, too.) [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > I'm wondering what new cards you'd like to see for the Tremere. > > Cards to make them a viable clan. :( Well, I wouldn't say they aren't viable. Definitely not as powerful as some of the other clans though. > For pure rush, they fail, because of S:CE/Dodge. True. I like to think of the Tremere, and the Tzimisce for that matter, as the watchers. They may not make many moves, but if you do and they catch you... *poof* But as you say, S:CE/Dodge foils this. They did/do have that little Weather Control + Dawn Operation + Skin of Night combo, but you have to make use of a non-clan discipline, and that's tricky. > For intercept-combat, they fail, becasue of S:CE/Dodge. They could use a little help here, but they do have Thoughts Betrayed. Just a single card, I know. > For bruise and bleed, they fail because of S:CE/Dodge. > > etc. etc. etc. > > Of all the clans who are supposed to be combat viable, they aren't. :( I guess I just don't think of them as a heavy combat clan. Mild combat, sure. They're brooders. I understand the desire to have them more combat viable though, since they do have all those neat combat cards. They need, as do the Assamites, a decent combat strike that qualifies as a hand strike. There's just no way that an Assamite, when reduced to hand strikes only, should become almost no combat threat at all. Less so for the Tremere, but I agree with you. They could use some combat help. That's what I was wanting to know. The Tremere decks I've seen have actually been more successful against heavy combat decks, because those decks don't have the S:CE/Dodge. They bleed or vote their prey down, while handling the rush tactics with Obedience. Rough card for weenie rush to handle. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > I'm surprised you think the Tremere need no new cards - can you make a > sufficiently tournament-viable deck out of them? (that actually uses > THA combat?) This is the crux of the argument. THA combat. I guess I just don't think of the Tremere as a combat clan. Well, not a heavy combat clan. Perhaps that's a product of them not being able to handle S:CE/Dodge though. Even so, that doesn't necessarily make them a non-viable tourney clan. They can shut down their predator; bleeder, bruiser or both. I would say they are no more in need of new cards than the Nosferatu. Sure the Nosferatu can kill in combat, but they're hurting in the political arena (where you'd think the Nossies would have hidden pull) and in the bleeding area. Yes, they can stealth by you for that bleed of one, or even two with a laptop/retainer/computer hacking, but when that (insert one of several clans) hits you for a 4-6 bleed with sufficient stealth, it makes the Nosferatu look pitiful. That's an extreme example, I know. > Their disciplines are an excellent mix and their vampire selection is > pretty good too, but Thaumaturgy suffers greatly from the need to gain > a 2nd round of combat to be anything worth fearing. This makes S:CE > even more effective against them, since if they are using Trap and > don't have one in hand, you have the option of saving your S:CE or > dodges until they DO play a Trap. True if you want to really burn someone with the Tremere. I have a friend that uses lots of Thefts. It's iffy as to whether you need to use that S:CE/Dodge on a little Theft, but then he has all that blood oozing from his vamps into his pool. Very annoying of him. Not troublesome enough to warrant the use of the S:CE/Dodge sometimes, as they're needed for the heavier hitters at the table (my group loves combat). I guess part of it is my play group. > At a minimum, they need three cards to be effective - Trap, Theft, > Walk. This is a little hard on the poor vampire doing the combat, > since he'll end up down 2 blood unless he started out not-full. So > most Tremere decks toss in maneuvers - now you're at four cards and it > starts to get iffy to have all four cards in your hand PLUS bleed or > intercept cards. If you want to stop S:CE/dodge, you need DOM and > Thoughts Betrayed, which cuts down the vampire selection, costs an > extra two blood off the top, and means you need FIVE cards in hand - > difficult at best. I'll give you that, and I see what you're saying. They need help to be a heavy combat clan. Agreed. > I'd personally like to see an AUS card that costs 1 blood, prevents > dodges for the combat at inferior, and prevents S:CE for the combat at > superior. This would help the Toreador, Tzimisce, and Tremere out > enormously, all of whom have solid combat disciplines.. yet make > crummy combat decks. (also note that it would force one to be aware > of his opponent's deck by preventing one OR the other.) Wording could > be sorted out, but think Fast Reaction and work from there. "Read > Intentions" would be a great title for this card, except it's already > in. =) I'd like to see that as well. The Tremere and Tzimisce are in that same boat of being one of those clans that can intercept and halt anything you're doing, but have a hard time of making you think twice about doing it again. [ quoted text not captured ]

lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:12:27 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> > wrote: > > >lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > >Using Fortitude, I can. Dawn Op, Skin of Night, Weather Control is a > >particularly nasty combo. You take 1 point of damage and they take 1 > >point of agg damage before maneuvers are ever declared. Beats IG and > >S:CE decks alike. > > That is not THA combat, that is Dawn Op combat. You are describing an > extreme corner case. This also doesn't work well when IG decks come > and rush you unless you've overloaded your Fortitude - and TS/IG/Blur > decks tend to beat you silly. True, it's not solely THA combat. And yes, it does require a discipline the Tremere don't naturally have. If they're to be a better combat clan, they do need something to help them make use of those combat cards they have. The Tremere do have ample defenses against the rush decks though. Obedience is just a nasty card. I think it's a good card, but I hate it. Frustrates me like nothing else. It does require the Tremere to be older to keep it going, but most rush decks use small vamps anyway. You just need that one vamp to deter all the would-be rushers. That's just a small thing though, and not really what we're discussing. I just wanted to spit venom about Obedience. > What I'm looking for is a combat deck that lets Tremere be Tremere - > not one that relies on them having Fortitude scattered everywhere, > with Bursts of Sunlight and WC being the only actual THA cards in use. > > The Brujah and Nosferatu seem to have no problem being themselves. > The Gangrel can use Scorpion Sting or Dog Pack much more easily than > the Tremere can use Thoughts Betrayed. I don't think the Nosferatu get to be themselves. As I said in another post (don't know which one in this can of worms I opened =), they aren't the political manipulators they could/should be. *deftly avoids talking about boxes* > Spend four blood, get a vamp in torpor that can rescue itself next > round. This looks like worthless combat to me. How about you? > > >I'll grant you that Tremere isn't the best combat clan, but it's not > >impossible. Either way, I'm generally a bigger of fan of the > >"whatever you do, you get drained of blood/Society of Leopold" > >strategy. > > Which isn't especially tourney-viable as it tends to fall over to > light intercept and/or 2nd tradition, both of which are reasonably > common these days. > > This is why I'd like to see the Tremere get some new cards. They were > obviously designed to be a bruise-bleed clan, or an intercept-bruise > clan. They can't do either, because making their combat work takes up > so much of your deck. I think more of an intercept-bruise, but right now they're just an annoyance: "Well, they deflected/obedienced us that round. We'll go again next round." when they could (should?) be a deterrent: "Ow, they sent 2 of my guys to torpor. Maybe I shouldn't go after them next round." Maybe they weren't meant to be the bleed-bruise type though. I mean with Auspex as the third. Take the Lasombra, who have their POT with DOM, then have OBT thrown in for stealth and additional combat. They seem more pro-active. Hmm... on the other hand that same OBT gives them intercept. Okay, shuttin' up. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <F124161F9A14C5AA.F3BB2EBF...@lp.airnews.net>, lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:21:06 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> > wrote: > > >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > >> be sorted out, but think Fast Reaction and work from there. "Read > >> Intentions" would be a great title for this card, except it's already > >> in. =) > > > >Foresight, Forewarning, Psychic Block, etc. etc. etc. > > > >My favourite (silly) name is "Knowledge of Combat Yet to > >Come" (ackn. Charles Dickens) > > Heh. If it was to be a THA card, it could be "Magickal Superglue", > with artwork of a guy's feet stuck to the ground while someone winds > up with a big kaboom-lookin' fireball. But that would be excessively > silly. (Although Potence's skill-card artwork from the Sabbat > qualifies, too.) How about a preconstructed deck for !malk/malk that is like that MtG Unglued? Lots of silly cards for a silly clan/s. -- die netzaddresse die Michael F. Tomkins ich vorher gab war falsch. m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au die addresse hier University of Canberra, Australia. ist die richtige... http://blitzen.canberra.edu.au/~bahkyp/

On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > But as you say, S:CE/Dodge foils this. They did/do have that little > Weather Control + Dawn Operation + Skin of Night combo, but you have to > make use of a non-clan discipline, and that's tricky. An unfortunately *highly* non-clan discipline - unlike, say, auspex for the Nosferatu, which occurs several times. :( > > Of all the clans who are supposed to be combat viable, they aren't. :( > > I guess I just don't think of them as a heavy combat clan. Heavy, no. But a warlock coming at you in V:tM can do just as much damage, if not more, than a Brujah punk. And they will do it. I would like to see an aspect of the game whereby the Tremere could be a viable combat clan. Not the best, no - but viable. > They need, as do the Assamites, a decent combat strike that qualifies as > a hand strike. The Khabar: Honor is okay, but a bit of a corner case. > There's just no way that an Assamite, when reduced to > hand strikes only, should become almost no combat threat at all. True... but they aren't a *brilliant* clan hand to hand, as I recall. > The Tremere decks I've seen have actually been more successful against > heavy combat decks, because those decks don't have the S:CE/Dodge. This is true. The Gangrel similarly, who find S:CE annoying, but can pling a Brujah for 1 (2 to get around Sideslip - a highly useful, if underplayed, card IMO) and make it aggravated. > Obedience. Rough card for weenie rush to handle. Justine and Atonement are worthy additions, too. -- James Coupe

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > True if you want to really burn someone with the Tremere. I have a > friend that uses lots of Thefts. It's iffy as to whether you need to > use that S:CE/Dodge on a little Theft, but then he has all that blood > oozing from his vamps into his pool. It's very difficult to torporise with a first round Tremere deck, though, if you mostly use Thefts - Soul Burn etc. aren't available in spades. -- James Coupe

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Michael F. Tomkins wrote: > How about a preconstructed deck for !malk/malk that is like that MtG > Unglued? Lots of silly cards for a silly clan/s. Unfortunately, we don't have the card base (many holes still to fix) or the player base to justify what is otherwise a nice idea. -- James Coupe

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > > They need, as do the Assamites, a decent combat strike that qualifies as > > a hand strike. > > The Khabar: Honor is okay, but a bit of a corner case. Sorry, just seen this bit again. I have no quarrels with the Tremere being crap if caught in an Immortal Grapple. That seems fair enough - since they can go to range with Apportation, etc. Also, it still gives the Brujah the edge. However, if they can get into a position they're comfortable with, they should be able to hit out. But a Brujah deck should be able to just grab them in the middle of their ritual and bash their brains out (i.e. Immortal Grapple preventing the playing of, say, Walk of Flame) - *if* it can get close. -- James Coupe

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Oh no. He doesn't try to send them to torpor. He uses lots of Thefts to keep his vamps healthy to afford the Celerity he added, and to keep a steady flow of blood into his pool from the vampires. Rather than hammer others into torpor, it's more of a victory by attrition deck. The individual strikes he uses are not damaging enough to warrant the S:CE/Dodge, but if you don't use them then maybe he'll toss an additional strike. Is it better to hold them for a "serious" strike? *shrug* [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > But as you say, S:CE/Dodge foils this. They did/do have that little > > Weather Control + Dawn Operation + Skin of Night combo, but you have > > to make use of a non-clan discipline, and that's tricky. > > An unfortunately *highly* non-clan discipline - unlike, say, auspex > for the Nosferatu, which occurs several times. :( Yes. Although Auspex isn't *that* common with the Nossies, it is complimentary to the Animalism that they already have, so they don't need a ton of it to make up for any deficiencies (hmm... it's late and no matter how I spell that it doesn't look correct). Fortitude is so foreign to the Tremere, you do need a ton of it to make it work. > > > Of all the clans who are supposed to be combat viable, they > > > aren't. :( > > > > I guess I just don't think of them as a heavy combat clan. > > Heavy, no. But a warlock coming at you in V:tM can do just as much > damage, if not more, than a Brujah punk. And they will do it. You're damn right they would! But then a Tzimisce would turn you into a puddle of goop and they can't do that in V:TES either. =) > I would like to see an aspect of the game whereby the Tremere could be > a viable combat clan. Not the best, no - but viable. I follow, and agree. > > They need, as do the Assamites, a decent combat strike that > > qualifies as a hand strike. > > The Khabar: Honor is okay, but a bit of a corner case. Yeah. I was thinking of something like a palm of blood or something for the Assamites. Don't know what it would do, but it would qualify as a hand strike. Tremere could have a ward or something that did damage to an attacker. > > There's just no way that an Assamite, when reduced to > > hand strikes only, should become almost no combat threat at all. > > True... but they aren't a *brilliant* clan hand to hand, as I recall. Well, they do have Celerity, but I think (and I may be wrong about this) that some of the Assamite powers in VtM are actual hand contact attacks. Those types could/should qualify as "hand strikes" in my opinion. > > The Tremere decks I've seen have actually been more successful > > against heavy combat decks, because those decks don't have the > > S:CE/Dodge. > > This is true. The Gangrel similarly, who find S:CE annoying, but can > pling a Brujah for 1 (2 to get around Sideslip - a highly useful, if > underplayed, card IMO) and make it aggravated. Mm-hmm. And less so, the Assamites. With a good amount of maneuvering (and they should have more than any IG deck will have) an Assamite deck will wreck a close range Potence deck, and a Gangrel combat deck, depending on the maneuvers it has. > > Obedience. Rough card for weenie rush to handle. > > Justine and Atonement are worthy additions, too. Do not speak her name. She vexes me. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > > They need, as do the Assamites, a decent combat strike that > > > qualifies as a hand strike. > > > > The Khabar: Honor is okay, but a bit of a corner case. > > Sorry, just seen this bit again. > > I have no quarrels with the Tremere being crap if caught in an > Immortal Grapple. That seems fair enough - since they can go to range > with Apportation, etc. Also, it still gives the Brujah the edge. > > However, if they can get into a position they're comfortable with, > they should be able to hit out. But a Brujah deck should be able to > just grab them in the middle of their ritual and bash their brains out > (i.e. Immortal Grapple preventing the playing of, say, Walk of Flame) > - *if* it can get close. I agree that it should wipe away any chance of using those cards. What about, say, an action or action modifier type card that would represent a ritual done in anticipation of conflict? Hmm... that would lead to an offense-only type of card. Perhaps the card would be something like a Rutor's hand that stays on the vampire, rather than something that only lasted for the duration of the action. I wouldn't want it to be permanent like Rutor's though. I don't want to talk too much about card details though. Just robbing myself of possible cards. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:41:08 GMT, myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: >lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: >> That is not THA combat, that is Dawn Op combat. You are describing an >> extreme corner case. This also doesn't work well when IG decks come >> and rush you unless you've overloaded your Fortitude - and TS/IG/Blur >> decks tend to beat you silly. > >True, it's not solely THA combat. And yes, it does require a discipline >the Tremere don't naturally have. If they're to be a better combat >clan, they do need something to help them make use of those combat >cards they have. But they were obviously SUPPOSED to be one of the nasty combat clans. And it's not even that it's "solely" THA combat - it's that it doesn't use any of the other gazillion combat cards that THA has. Using one or two of 10 cards doesn't say much for the discipline as a whole. >The Tremere do have ample defenses against the rush decks though. >Obedience is just a nasty card. I think it's a good card, but I hate No good if you are playing a combat deck, since you want to beat up things, not avoid combat =) >> What I'm looking for is a combat deck that lets Tremere be Tremere - >> not one that relies on them having Fortitude scattered everywhere, >> with Bursts of Sunlight and WC being the only actual THA cards in use. >> >> The Brujah and Nosferatu seem to have no problem being themselves. >> The Gangrel can use Scorpion Sting or Dog Pack much more easily than >> the Tremere can use Thoughts Betrayed. > >I don't think the Nosferatu get to be themselves. As I said in another >post (don't know which one in this can of worms I opened =), they aren't >the political manipulators they could/should be. Well, they can use their own disciplines to good effect - a POT/OBF deck works very well with Behind You for the maneuvers. Add ANI for untaps and any other toys you want. =) >> This is why I'd like to see the Tremere get some new cards. They were >> obviously designed to be a bruise-bleed clan, or an intercept-bruise >> clan. They can't do either, because making their combat work takes up >> so much of your deck. > >I think more of an intercept-bruise, but right now they're just an >annoyance: >"Well, they deflected/obedienced us that round. We'll go again next >round." Which any clan with minor Dominate (skill cards!) can be. =/ >when they could (should?) be a deterrent: >"Ow, they sent 2 of my guys to torpor. Maybe I shouldn't go after them >next round." THERE we go. =) I'd love to hear someone speak of the "big star" in the same way they speak of the "big fist". ("Hm, that's Hugo. He has a little fist and Presence? Oh, a big fist. Oh. I'm not blocking him, just so you know.") >Maybe they weren't meant to be the bleed-bruise type though. I mean >with Auspex as the third. Take the Lasombra, who have their POT with >DOM, then have OBT thrown in for stealth and additional combat. They >seem more pro-active. Hmm... on the other hand that same OBT gives them >intercept. Okay, shuttin' up. Bleed-bruise or intercept-bruise... they should be able to be ONE of them, and right now they make a crummy of either. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:15:39 GMT, myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: >lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > >> I'm surprised you think the Tremere need no new cards - can you make a >> sufficiently tournament-viable deck out of them? (that actually uses >> THA combat?) *snip* >Even so, that doesn't necessarily make them a non-viable tourney clan. >They can shut down their predator; bleeder, bruiser or both. I would A DOM/AUS deck can be made from the Malkavians, however, and they have a better selection. ;) I've never personally seen a -Tremere- deck in a tournament. I've seen the Dawn/Skin/WC variants, I've seen Matt's Ulugh Beg "Da Pimp, His Bitch, and some Hos" Ankara Citadel toy, but I've never really seen a good, basic Tremere deck. >say they are no more in need of new cards than the Nosferatu. Sure the >Nosferatu can kill in combat, but they're hurting in the political arena Take a look at the Nosferatu Law Firm - Selma, Chester, Nikolaus, and Sheldon. That particular block of 8 votes also has 4 disciplines in common. The Nossies may have some pull in politics, but they're never going to be able to go toe-to-toe on the voting block with the Tories or Ventrue. But they sure as hell can outvote the rest of 'those little peons', and they can hold even with the Ventrue by just beating the hell out of anyone who votes against them. =) >(where you'd think the Nossies would have hidden pull) and in the >bleeding area. Yes, they can stealth by you for that bleed of one, or >even two with a laptop/retainer/computer hacking, but when that (insert Spying Mission :P i can post the Assault Rifle/Spying Mission deck I made with them if you like =) >one of several clans) hits you for a 4-6 bleed with sufficient stealth, >it makes the Nosferatu look pitiful. That's an extreme example, I know. Quite extreme. When they Night Moves you at +6 stealth, Spying Mission it, then come next turn for a Computer Hack bleed of 4 with superior OBF... =) >> I'd personally like to see an AUS card that costs 1 blood, prevents >> dodges for the combat at inferior, and prevents S:CE for the combat at >> superior. This would help the Toreador, Tzimisce, and Tremere out >> enormously, all of whom have solid combat disciplines.. yet make >> crummy combat decks. (also note that it would force one to be aware >> of his opponent's deck by preventing one OR the other.) Wording could >> be sorted out, but think Fast Reaction and work from there. "Read >> Intentions" would be a great title for this card, except it's already >> in. =) > >I'd like to see that as well. The Tremere and Tzimisce are in that same >boat of being one of those clans that can intercept and halt anything >you're doing, but have a hard time of making you think twice about doing >it again. Interesting parallel to the V:TM world, too: they're both badasses in V:TM, i believe. In V:TES, they both have one *nasty* combat discipline, that they find difficult to use. They SHOULD be tougher than they are. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > > Quite extreme. When they Night Moves you at +6 stealth, Spying > Mission it, then come next turn for a Computer Hack bleed of 4 with > superior OBF... =) yeah, except that <insert your favorite Malk here> can bleed for 6 on 1 turn with comporable stealth, or for 5 with Bonding for even more. The Nossies will never be as good at bleeding as clans with Pre or Dom. Leave real bleeding to the professionals ;) -T -- S'io credesse che mia risposta fosse a persona che mai tornasse al mondo, questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse. Ma per ciò che giammai di questo fondo non tornò vivo alcun, s'i' odo il vero, senza tema d'infamia ti rispondo. T.S. Eliot- "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) writes: >Heh. If it was to be a THA card, it could be "Magickal Superglue", >with artwork of a guy's feet stuck to the ground while someone winds >up with a big kaboom-lookin' fireball. But that would be excessively >silly. (Although Potence's skill-card artwork from the Sabbat >qualifies, too.) Reminds me of one of their rituals that slows the target - more the faster they try to go.. what was its name? - Ron -

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:56:17 -0600, Tom Longwell <trlo...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote: >Derek Ray wrote: >> >> Quite extreme. When they Night Moves you at +6 stealth, Spying >> Mission it, then come next turn for a Computer Hack bleed of 4 with >> superior OBF... =) >yeah, except that <insert your favorite Malk here> can bleed for 6 on 1 >turn with comporable stealth, or for 5 with Bonding for even more. The >Nossies will never be as good at bleeding as clans with Pre or Dom. >Leave real bleeding to the professionals ;) As far as sheer bleed amount? no. But it's worth noting that the Night Moves/Spying Mission bleed style is not susceptible to hand jam the way Malkavian S/B is... if you don't attempt to block the Malks, they wedge up on stealth cards. It doesn't matter whether you attempt to block the Nossies or not, they get to play it all anyway =) [ quoted text not captured ]

lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:15:39 GMT, myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > *snip* > > >Even so, that doesn't necessarily make them a non-viable tourney > >clan. > >They can shut down their predator; bleeder, bruiser or both. I would > > A DOM/AUS deck can be made from the Malkavians, however, and they have > a better selection. ;) Oh sure, there are clans that can probably do it better. Just saying they can be viable. But not so much in combat with THA tactics, I admit. > I've never personally seen a -Tremere- deck in a tournament. I've seen > the Dawn/Skin/WC variants, I've seen Matt's Ulugh Beg "Da Pimp, His > Bitch, and some Hos" Ankara Citadel toy, but I've never really seen a > good, basic Tremere deck. That's a tough one. I don't know if I've seen a good, basic Gangrel deck. Maybe I have seen one, but it wasn't memorable. I know what you meant though. The decks aren't anything that couldn't be done just as well by other clans with the same disciplines. > >say they are no more in need of new cards than the Nosferatu. Sure > >the Nosferatu can kill in combat, but they're hurting in the > >political arena > > Take a look at the Nosferatu Law Firm - Selma, Chester, Nikolaus, and > Sheldon. That particular block of 8 votes also has 4 disciplines in > common. The Nossies may have some pull in politics, but they're never > going to be able to go toe-to-toe on the voting block with the Tories > or Ventrue. But they sure as hell can outvote the rest of 'those > little peons', and they can hold even with the Ventrue by just beating > the hell out of anyone who votes against them. =) Well, those are some big vamps. Sure most vamps with titles are big, but even a 2 cap Brujah with Presence has the capability to increase it's votes. The Nossies just don't have anything like that. There should be a Nosferatu information gathering network or something the give them similar power. True, they definitely shouldn't be up there with the Toreador and Ventrue, probably not the Lasombra either. But they should have a way to occassionally force something through, no matter who is- what the hell am I talking about? Cryptic Rider. Crap on a stick. Call a vote everyone will go for, then tack on Cryptic Rider. Quiet! =) > >(where you'd think the Nossies would have hidden pull) and in the > >bleeding area. Yes, they can stealth by you for that bleed of one, or > >even two with a laptop/retainer/computer hacking, but when that > > Spying Mission :P i can post the Assault Rifle/Spying Mission deck I > made with them if you like =) Spying Mission is okay, but it's slow (requires 2 turns) and you have to ensure that both bleed attempts get through (via stealth). That's not *that* big a hassle, but it does cut down on the other things you put in your deck. I think I've seen that deck you mention. Handy, but I guess it doesn't give me the Nosferatu feel (don't ask what that is, Legbiter ;) > >(insert one of several clans) hits you for a 4-6 bleed with > >sufficient stealth, it makes the Nosferatu look pitiful. That's an > >extreme example, I know. > > Quite extreme. Well, not too extreme. Quite extreme is those Toreador 8-10 bleeds with +2 or 3 stealth. Blech. > When they Night Moves you at +6 stealth, Spying > Mission it, then come next turn for a Computer Hack bleed of 4 with > superior OBF... =) True, true. I guess that's just too slow for me. Maybe. *shrug* > >> I'd personally like to see an AUS card that costs 1 blood, prevents > >> dodges for the combat at inferior, and prevents S:CE for the combat > >> at superior. This would help the Toreador, Tzimisce, and Tremere > >> out enormously, all of whom have solid combat disciplines.. yet > >> make crummy combat decks. (also note that it would force one to be > >> aware of his opponent's deck by preventing one OR the other.) > >> Wording could be sorted out, but think Fast Reaction and work from > >> there. "Read Intentions" would be a great title for this card, > >> except it's already in. =) > > > > I'd like to see that as well. The Tremere and Tzimisce are in that > > same boat of being one of those clans that can intercept and halt > > anything you're doing, but have a hard time of making you think > > twice about doing it again. > > Interesting parallel to the V:TM world, too: they're both badasses in > V:TM, i believe. Si. > In V:TES, they both have one *nasty* combat discipline, that they find > difficult to use. They SHOULD be tougher than they are. =) Agreed. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8ajim6$bes$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > rag...@ugcs.caltech.edu () wrote: >> Hesha. I think he makes the best Vtes vamp, and the Assamites could >> really use a decent mid-cap. >Uh...Hesha is a Setite, not an Assamite. Doh! I knew that, really. Brain fart, sorry.... Although now that I think about it, it may not be a good idea for the promo vamps to be essential (like a good mid-cap Setite would be). Hmmm... This is difficult. If you do want to market Vtes to get new players, maybe getting some VtM babe (it looks like Lucita has some sort of fan following, for example) as a vamp promo would be a good idea. Oy, this fence is hurting my butt! [ quoted text not captured ]

>>> I'm surprised you think the Tremere need no new cards - >>> can you make a sufficiently tournament-viable deck out of them? >>> (that actually uses THA combat?) >> >>Using Fortitude, I can. Dawn Op, Skin of Night, Weather Control is a >>particularly nasty combo. > > That is not THA combat, that is Dawn Op combat. It uses Thamaturgy in combat, therefore it is an example "THA combat". The fact that it uses Fortitude cards is largely irrelevant. If you'd like to specify "THA only" combat or "AUS THA DOM" combat then do so. > You are describing an extreme corner case. ...and I suppose that any other combo I come up with is also a "corner case"? VTES is a game of combos and I provided an effective use of THA to defeat S:CE decks. > This also doesn't work well when IG decks come and rush you > unless you've overloaded your Fortitude - and TS/IG/Blur decks > tend to beat you silly. Granted, but Potence rush decks are the exception, not the rule. > What I'm looking for is a combat deck that lets Tremere be > Tremere - not one that relies on them having Fortitude scattered > everywhere, with Bursts of Sunlight and WC being the only actual > THA cards in use. Often times a discipline provides only a few cards that are useful for a particular strategy. This is one of those cases. However, I've never thought of Tremere as a "run around and kick the ass of anything that moves" kind of clan. They tend to have a reputation of manipulating and threatening others rather than pounding the hell out of them. > The Brujah and Nosferatu seem to have no problem being themselves. Brujah, I'll grant you. However, I would like an example of an tournament winning deck that makes focuses on the Nosferatu's ability to gather information to use against their opponents. > The Gangrel can use Scorpion Sting or Dog Pack much more easily than > the Tremere can use Thoughts Betrayed. Scorpion Sting stops Dodges. How many people rely on Dodge in lieu of S:CE? None that I can think of. As for Dog Pack, it's a retainer that costs 1 pool. Not only do you have to take an action to use the retainer (which Freak Drive can admittedly take the sting out of...but costs 1 blood) but only _that_ vampire may use it and there are several cards that steal or destroy retainers. To top it off, I have given away literally milk crates filled with cards and I've only managed to acquire 2 copies. For stopping S:CE, Dog Pack falls _far_ short of "more easily than Thoughts Betrayed". > Costing an additional 2 blood on top of that. Now you've spent 4 > blood BEFORE doing any damage at all, and you'd better come up with > something impressive to get the blood back on yourself. Walk of Flame > isn't going to cut it - I don't care to spend 4 blood to ping one guy > into torpor with 2 agg. *shrug* Follow up with a Fifth Traditional Hospital. I'll granty you that Tremere isn't the best rush combat deck, but I honestly can't see that was ever intended. > *chuckle* If you recall, I posted a deck here about three months ago > that made extensive use of Dead-End Alley as a pile of weenie THA > rushers. It suffers greatly v. S:CE, of course, but a lot less so v. > Dodge. Using Dead-End Alley extensively is _very_ old school. Tremere chasing vampires down Dead-End Alleys on Hawgs is about as basic a Tremere deck as you're going to find. And as I said above, if a player is relying on Dodge for combat defense, they will soon see the folly of their ways. > A better card overall is Apportation ... that card should've been > in the base set, instead of Movement of the Mind. Agreed. Press only usable to end combat?!? *snort* Whatever. *tosses Movement of the Bowels into the trash* >>Think _outside_ the box. > > Theft, Alley, Walk. Still 3 cards. or TB, Shotgun, Walk for too much > blood. Still 3 cards. Please don't spout bullshit about "think > outside the box", by the way. It's one of the most overused, > insulting, and misused phrases to come out of the 90's, and it makes > me want to puke just to hear it, because it's INVARIABLY recited by > someone who thinks his own pet way is something new and improved and > that NOBODY ELSE could possibly be as smart as he is to figure it out. > Check deja for "Somebody get an Ashtray". =P Y'know, I truly enjoy pissing people off. I'm a Unix Admin. It's what I do for a living. Thanks for making me smile. However, you ain't all that. *poke* *grin* As for developing innovative decks, check out "Uriah Winter, the Trojan Horse" or "The Grind" sometime. I've made my share. However, I was certainly not claiming that the Dawn Op/Skin of Night/Weather Control combo was innovative in the slightest. I've seen that from time to time since Jyhad was still in print. Keep in mind that developing completely new strategies is a lot more difficult when new cards haven't been made in over three years. > Let's see, you snipped the paragraph about maneuvers, which is where I > get the 4th card. TB, maneuver, Theft, Trap or Alley, Walk makes five > and generally costs you 1 blood for the 2nd round punch you take. > Shotgun, TB, Walk means you get punched for 1 - now you have spent > FIVE BLOOD off your vampire to remove one blood from theirs and put > them in torpor. Ulugh Beg can do this twice and then must hunt. > (shudder) ...or go to the Fifth Traditional Hospital. I didn't say that the combo made for an effective rush combat deck. I simply stated that the maneuver wasn't needed. A statement that you also happened to snip. > Spend four blood, get a vamp in torpor that can rescue itself next > round. This looks like worthless combat to me. How about you? Hey look...it's Muaziz. *chomp* >> Either way, I'm generally a bigger of fan of the "whatever >> you do, you get drained of blood/Society of Leopold" strategy. > > Which isn't especially tourney-viable as it tends to fall over to > light intercept and/or 2nd tradition, both of which are reasonably > common these days. There's multiple ways to drain people dry of blood..esp. in combat. You intercept my Slaughtering the Herd? Okay. Thoughts Betrayed and I Theft of Vitae. I press and Theft of Vitae and press and...wash/repeat. > This is why I'd like to see the Tremere get some new cards. They were > obviously designed to be a bruise-bleed clan, or an intercept-bruise > clan. I've never seen a intercept-combat deck be consistently tournament viable. There's numerous ways to make actions unblockable. It's almost always better to take a pro-active strategy in a tournament. And bruise/bleed? With Fortitude, they do fine. I'm not arguing that they don't need new cards since they really need an off-clan discipline to make an effective bruise/bleed deck. I've already stated previously that Thamaturgy could really use a anti-S:CE card. It's just that I saw flaws in your reasoning. Finally, don't get upset. It's just a game. It's not Magic: The Crack Habit. Oh...and to answer your unspoke question, I _do_ have an answer for everything. *wry grin* Noal McDonald Anarch Troublemaker of Farmington Hills, MI -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:15:08 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >It uses Thamaturgy in combat, therefore it is an example "THA combat". >The fact that it uses Fortitude cards is largely irrelevant. If you'd >like to specify "THA only" combat or "AUS THA DOM" combat then do so. (shrug) I assumed people would understand that "dawn/skin/WC" has been sufficiently tossed around in the past that it wasn't what I was referring to. Next time, i'm coming up with an extra 'graf just to say that. >> You are describing an extreme corner case. > >...and I suppose that any other combo I come up with is also a "corner >case"? VTES is a game of combos and I provided an effective use of THA >to defeat S:CE decks. No, but it's a lot easier to get a pile of Thefts, Traps, and Walks than it is to get a pile of Dawn Ops and Weather Controls. =) >> This also doesn't work well when IG decks come and rush you >> unless you've overloaded your Fortitude - and TS/IG/Blur decks >> tend to beat you silly. > >Granted, but Potence rush decks are the exception, not the rule. *boggle* the only rush decks i've SEEN in tournaments are Potence-based, except for the multiple-DotB/Aid from Bats one. Wait, lemme think... no... no, they've all been POT. Any other combat decks were either intercept/pummel or bruise/bleed. >> What I'm looking for is a combat deck that lets Tremere be >> Tremere - not one that relies on them having Fortitude scattered >> everywhere, with Bursts of Sunlight and WC being the only actual >> THA cards in use. > >Often times a discipline provides only a few cards that are useful for a >particular strategy. This is one of those cases. However, I've never hmm.. POT, combat discipline. Most cards useful. The combat half of PRO - all cards useful, pretty much. CEL, combat support - most cards useful. THA, combat discipline - two cards useful? Bleh. >thought of Tremere as a "run around and kick the ass of anything that >moves" kind of clan. They tend to have a reputation of manipulating and >threatening others rather than pounding the hell out of them. Then why make THA 90% combat cards? The threat part works in V:TM because they really ARE badasses there. In V:TES, not many people are terribly impressed - so they need to have more of a threat potential. >> The Brujah and Nosferatu seem to have no problem being themselves. > >Brujah, I'll grant you. However, I would like an example of an >tournament winning deck that makes focuses on the Nosferatu's ability to >gather information to use against their opponents. *snort* Once they provide the Nosferatu with some CARDS that gather information that's useful... I meant more that the Nossies can use their stock 3 disciplines and it works reasonably well. >> The Gangrel can use Scorpion Sting or Dog Pack much more easily than >> the Tremere can use Thoughts Betrayed. > >Scorpion Sting stops Dodges. How many people rely on Dodge in lieu of >S:CE? None that I can think of. The Tremere are screwed almost as much by Dodge as they are by S:CE if you're using 2nd round combat. Just hang onto the Dodge until he tries to burn you with Walk or Burst... >As for Dog Pack, it's a retainer that costs 1 pool. Not only do you >have to take an action to use the retainer (which Freak Drive can >admittedly take the sting out of...but costs 1 blood) but only _that_ >vampire may use it and there are several cards that steal or destroy >retainers. To top it off, I have given away literally milk crates >filled with cards and I've only managed to acquire 2 copies. For >stopping S:CE, Dog Pack falls _far_ short of "more easily than Thoughts >Betrayed". So you get the retainer, Freak Drive, and Bum's Rush, then Ambush, then Haven, then... all with Scorpion Stings in hand so the poor bastards can't get away no matter WHAT. Restoration as needed to pay for some Freak Drives. TB may be more common, but that 2 blood is a pain. >> Costing an additional 2 blood on top of that. Now you've spent 4 >> blood BEFORE doing any damage at all, and you'd better come up with >> something impressive to get the blood back on yourself. Walk of Flame >> isn't going to cut it - I don't care to spend 4 blood to ping one guy >> into torpor with 2 agg. > >*shrug* Follow up with a Fifth Traditional Hospital. I'll granty you >that Tremere isn't the best rush combat deck, but I honestly can't see >that was ever intended. But it's not a real good intercept/combat or bruise/bleed either, is the problem. Although at least they have Justine to smack around weenies. >Using Dead-End Alley extensively is _very_ old school. Tremere chasing >vampires down Dead-End Alleys on Hawgs is about as basic a Tremere deck >as you're going to find. And as I said above, if a player is relying on >Dodge for combat defense, they will soon see the folly of their ways. my point, however, that yes, i HAVE considered it. The Biker Tremere from Hell are also quite entertaining, but fall over to DotB too easily :/ >> A better card overall is Apportation ... that card should've been >> in the base set, instead of Movement of the Mind. > >Agreed. Press only usable to end combat?!? *snort* Whatever. >*tosses Movement of the Bowels into the trash* Only thing I can think of is Trap/WC/Theft, with MTM to get out of your own Trap before it kills you, if you get screwed. But that's kinda dumb on the face of it really. >Y'know, I truly enjoy pissing people off. I'm a Unix Admin. It's what >I do for a living. Thanks for making me smile. However, you ain't all >that. *poke* *grin* (shrug) It's that particular phrase that does it. If you're a UNIX admin, you should be just as allergic to that phrase as I am, since it seems to be employed extensively by Marketing and/or HR. =) >> Let's see, you snipped the paragraph about maneuvers, which is where I >> get the 4th card. TB, maneuver, Theft, Trap or Alley, Walk makes five >> and generally costs you 1 blood for the 2nd round punch you take. >> Shotgun, TB, Walk means you get punched for 1 - now you have spent >> FIVE BLOOD off your vampire to remove one blood from theirs and put >> them in torpor. Ulugh Beg can do this twice and then must hunt. >> (shudder) > >...or go to the Fifth Traditional Hospital. I didn't say that the combo >made for an effective rush combat deck. I simply stated that the >maneuver wasn't needed. A statement that you also happened to snip. Horse Brutality requires a Prince or Justicar - usually a large vamp. Combat decks, rush OR intercept, do much better with smaller vamps, in general - Minion/5th begins to take up a good chunk of deck space. The "One Vampire Wall" type of deck is awful vulnerable to people figuring out ways to hose that one vamp (Hostile Takeover being the most effective, but there are plenty of others.) In this case, without the maneuver, you need a full 5-cap vamp to pull off the combo and not go to torpor itself. Yuck. >>> Either way, I'm generally a bigger of fan of the "whatever >>> you do, you get drained of blood/Society of Leopold" strategy. >> >> Which isn't especially tourney-viable as it tends to fall over to >> light intercept and/or 2nd tradition, both of which are reasonably >> common these days. > >There's multiple ways to drain people dry of blood..esp. in combat. >You intercept my Slaughtering the Herd? Okay. Thoughts Betrayed and I >Theft of Vitae. I press and Theft of Vitae and press and...wash/repeat. I don't normally see Cryptic Mission/SoL decks packing that much combat. Slaughtering the Herd looks neat, but works sort of slow since it basically just makes someone spend one extra blood per action, and it's only good on your predator, which doesn't help you oust anyone. Bleh. >> This is why I'd like to see the Tremere get some new cards. They were >> obviously designed to be a bruise-bleed clan, or an intercept-bruise >> clan. > >I've never seen a intercept-combat deck be consistently tournament >viable. There's numerous ways to make actions unblockable. It's almost >always better to take a pro-active strategy in a tournament. And >bruise/bleed? With Fortitude, they do fine. Yes, but most of the unblockables involve vampires going to torpor afterwards, which isn't ever THAT bad for an intercept deck that's got its shit together. It's almost never worth it to make something unblockable unless you can pull off the oust with it - and if your prey is making things unblockable, that's even better since you can always intercept the rescue action. =) >I'm not arguing that they don't need new cards since they really need an >off-clan discipline to make an effective bruise/bleed deck. I've >already stated previously that Thamaturgy could really use a anti-S:CE >card. It's just that I saw flaws in your reasoning. Auspex! =) Helps the Toreador/Tzimisce/Tremere, all in one. >Finally, don't get upset. It's just a game. It's not Magic: The Crack >Habit. Oh...and to answer your unspoke question, I _do_ have an answer >for everything. *wry grin* Nah. The only remotely upset at all is the stupid 'outside the box' phrase. People like to toss it around when they don't know what to do, and they want you to come up with an idea for them. [ quoted text not captured ]

myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > For intercept-combat, they fail, becasue of S:CE/Dodge. > > They could use a little help here, but they do have Thoughts Betrayed. > Just a single card, I know. Also, Rotschreck is pretty effective after intercept/Burst. --- Eric Pettersen pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)

Let's beat this dead horse again. Wanna solve the Tremere whimp factor? Change the rules of stealing blood is resolved in the damage resolution phase. Problem solved, period. NO new cards need to be "custom" made for them. We play this way, it's wrong but it works well. About the Nosferatu, Two cards that would be good for them: 1. A card with their clan symbol that gives them like +2 or +3 bleed. Make it a rare or uncommon. You know, Due to their vast knowledge of everything going on in there cities. I'm sick of reading about how they know more then all the other clans. A card like this would prove they did and maybe somebody would actually play them again. 2. A combat ends card (again, for Nossie's only) like Catatonic Fear that represents their scariness. Maybe Noss' above 5 capacity combat ends with +1 damage. Oh I forgot:'burp,' 'fart,' 'sigh,' 'grin' Jeff prince of Cleveland

Lord help us if ANYONE listens to what this guy has to say. We'll have Magic: the V:TES expansion. On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:40:29 -0500 (EST), Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: >Let's beat this dead horse again. Wanna solve the Tremere whimp factor? >Change the rules of stealing blood is resolved in the damage resolution >phase. Problem solved, period. NO new cards need to be "custom" made >for them. We play this way, it's wrong but it works well. Totally vague phrasing. I suspect I know what you're saying though, and that just blows the shit out of the game balance. > About the Nosferatu, Two cards that would be good for them: >1. A card with their clan symbol that gives them like +2 or +3 bleed. HONK! What, you want more stealth bleeders? Everyone put their Malk decks together, and the best one wins! Yeah! Moving right along. >Make it a rare or uncommon. You know, Due to their vast knowledge of Not relevant how rare it is, since Jyhad was designed so that rarity wouldn't matter in the gameplay. >everything going on in there cities. I'm sick of reading about how they >know more then all the other clans. A card like this would prove they >did and maybe somebody would actually play them again. No, it would prove that they could stealth-bleed too. Dumb. How about something that lets them look at people's hands, their own library, etc.? Tusk is a good beginning. They never followed through. >2. A combat ends card (again, for Nossie's only) like Catatonic Fear >that represents their scariness. Maybe Noss' above 5 capacity combat >ends with +1 damage. The Nosferatu have Potence. Who needs Combat Ends, unless you're going to turn them into a stealth/bleed clan? They're plenty scary to block if you build the deck right. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 14 Mar 2000 22:45:01 GMT, pe...@address.is.in.sig (Eric Pettersen) wrote: >myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: >> James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> > For intercept-combat, they fail, becasue of S:CE/Dodge. >> >> They could use a little help here, but they do have Thoughts Betrayed. >> Just a single card, I know. > >Also, Rotschreck is pretty effective after intercept/Burst. problem: you can only Rotshit once per turn. =/ Fun, but no good against a weenie horde. [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve Wieck <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:8JDx4.6176$We4.1...@news4.atl... > Okay. Thanks for all the input so far on V:TES's future direction. Let me > bring a little focus to the discussion based on the accumulated feedback and > then ask for opinions from there. > > 1. We're looking into doing a promo card. We'll try to punch this out as > soon as possible. Everyone vote for the who they want to see on the promo > card the most: > > Lucita > Vykos > Fatima > Hesha > Victoria Ash > Jan Pieterzoon > Theo Bell Tough choice. Victoria Ash, Jan Pieterzoon and Theo Bell are right out. There's more than enough good Torries, Ventrue, and Brujah. Which leaves Lucita, Vykos, Fatima, and Hesha. Hesha wouldn't be bad, since the Settites could use a good mid-range vamp, but then, not enough people play Settites and IMHO they need to be redone entirely. Of the three remaining, they're all fine. But let's consider them in detail anyway. I lean against Fatima, since I don't think the Assamites need another 8 pool minion, especially since their most-used minions are 7 pool (Parnassus), 9 pool (Thetmes), and 10 pool (Al-Ashrad). Similarly, I don't think the Tzimisce need another 8 pool minion either, especially since their 7 pool (Drago) is so damn good. Which leaves Lucita. Not that the Lasombra are my favourite clan, or that Obtenebration is my favourite discipline, and not that my very own PC fills pretty much the same ecological niche as Lucita in the game universe... > We'd likely insert the card in Inquest. We would NOT mail it out as this is > a massive pain in the ass, so if anyone feels like they could not get the > card through an Inquest copy, complain now and/or offer a cheap alternative > to distribution of the card. I don't read Inquest, and I never will. I laughed long and hard when someone from WOTC described Inquest as an "independent gaming magazine." As for an alternative distro, that's easy. Ship them to gaming stores with the next Vampire supplement, and have them give it away with every purchase. > 2. Culling the collective thoughts of the newsgroup (and list), I'm inclined > right now to look at first releasing pre-constructed decks based on the 4 > independent clans (Setite, Assamite, Giovanni, Ravnos) or 2 of these > (Assamite & Giovanni), plus 1 Sabbat and 1 Cam clan along with boosters. > > These would recycle some old cards from previous sets (AH). Is that a > problem - someone mentioned that promises were made that certain expansions > would never be reprinted? If we couldn't recycle it makes this type of > project very difficult since the expense of all new card designs for this > size of set would be prohibitive right out of the gate (until we grow the > V:TES fan base more). > > There would be enough new cards to fill out these clans to make them as > fully playable as others. > > My feeling is that preconstructed can get new players in and that new cards > for the independents seem to be most in demand by you veterans. This might > accomplish both at once. > > Concerns are: > 1. Do these 4 independent clans play differently that each pre-con deck > would have a unique strategy to show off the variety of V:TES play? Yes. Setite=Sneak+bleed Assamite=Combat with extra actions Giovanni=Bruise/bleed Ravnos=Combat w/o extra actions My one concern, however, is that none of these clans use Auspex. > 2. I am interested in doing some story tie in from V:TES to our WOD > storyline. This would involve the Assamites being freed from the curse > (perhaps a Master card like someone recommended) but should also involve the > Ravnos getting virtually wiped out, which makes a Ravnos deck a weird thing > to be releasing, but I don't intend to axe them from the future of V:TES > either. Well, I think the best thing to do with the Ravnos wipeout is to handwave most of it and say the card vampires were among the survivors. Or maybe you could have a Ravnos-hoser based on the events in ToTB. What about all Malks getting Dementation, BTW? > 3. From a marketing standpoint, the independents are not as widely > recognized/popular by the Vampire fan base as the Camarilla clans or even > Sabbat clans. Relaunching V:TES using clans which aren't the strongest in > recognition/popularity isn't the brightest marketing move we could make. > Also, the Setite and Ravnos are particularly more difficult to sum up in > terse marketing text to attract new players (hey who doesn't love the > assassins and necromancers, btu these snakes and gypsies, what are they > about?) > This makes me consider starting with precon decks of Assamite, Giovanni, > and then either Lasombraor Tzimisce and one Camarilla clan. Then pick up > Ravnos and Settite and round those clans out in a later expansion. > > Comments folks? I would have to say Tzimisce over Lasombra (in which case, go with Sascha Vykos as your promo). This gives you an Auspex and Animalism gang. The Lasombra play a lot like the Giovanni, and vice versa, simply because the two clans share two discplines. You basically want to cover as many discipline bases as possible with any initial release. As for the remaining Camarilla clan, I would recommend Ventrue, because it's nice to have a straight bleed deck around. > > > 3. Finally, my current thoughts are to do a Sabbat re-release after the > expansion discussed above. I would do it 2nd because I think pre-cons are > the way to go to get more people into the game the easiest and that's what's > needed most. However, Sabbat would essentially be a reprint so it can be > done faster and potentially cheaper than the new expansion. So, if people > feel that Sabbat is actually a good set to introduce people to the game > with, then I'll change my tune here. > > Any feedback to the newsgroup would be appreicated. So long as there are some Sabbat starters. Rob

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > Oh no. He doesn't try to send them to torpor. He uses lots of Thefts > to keep his vamps healthy to afford the Celerity he added, and to keep a > steady flow of blood into his pool from the vampires. But if you can't get rid of the vampires, it is difficult to actually get bleeds etc. passed to oust a player. :( -- James Coupe

On 14 Mar 2000, Eric Pettersen wrote: > Also, Rotschreck is pretty effective after intercept/Burst. True, true. But as a master card, you cannot load your deck with them due to master hand jam and, unlike IG, you lose the ability to play it on your own turn. All decks need to do one or two actions (well, almost all) - probably just that *last* point of bleed to get rid of them. And if you get blocked, well, you can't do anything. Damnit. -- James Coupe

On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: > Let's beat this dead horse again. Wanna solve the Tremere whimp factor? > Change the rules of stealing blood is resolved in the damage resolution > phase. Which would alter a few timing issues, but nothing critical. > Problem solved, period. I do not think you have identified the problem people are raising. Many people are complaining about the fact that, with the Tremere, you do not even make it past the S:CE step of Strike Resolution, let alone to Damage Resolution. And gaining blood in Damage Resolution rather than Strike Resolution is, well, very, very minor. Doesn't really change anything at all. Indeed, if nothing else it probably hampers them. > About the Nosferatu, Two cards that would be good for them: > 1. A card with their clan symbol that gives them like +2 or +3 bleed. A large amount for any card - compare with the Dominate bleeds, which are the best in the game. (Ignoring the now banned RtoI.) And if it's less than that well, just do what everyone else does and use a Laptop. Works better across clans, too, if you're doing a Nos/!Nos deck. > Make it a rare or uncommon. Perhaps for flavour, yes. However, I would posit that maybe you are suggesting this for its power? Rarity != power in V:TES. > You know, Due to their vast knowledge of > everything going on in there cities. I'm sick of reading about how they > know more then all the other clans. What they know, and what they can do, are different things. The Nossies often sell off their information to the highest bidder, rather than using it themselves. > A card like this would prove they > did and maybe somebody would actually play them again. > 2. A combat ends card (again, for Nossie's only) like Catatonic Fear > that represents their scariness. "Oooh, look - he's gross. Let's just hit him anyway." -- James Coupe

> >> This also doesn't work well when IG decks come and rush you > >> unless you've overloaded your Fortitude - and TS/IG/Blur decks > >> tend to beat you silly. > > > >Granted, but Potence rush decks are the exception, not the rule. > > *boggle* the only rush decks i've SEEN in tournaments are > Potence-based, I've seen quite a few Gangrel decks. One of them was mine. But my point wasn't that Potence decks are the exception to rush combat, but rather the exception to tournament decks. Typically, you won't see more than one or two of them...unless you're at a NJL tournament. For some reason, we see a lot of combat decks. But if your only weakness is not being able to stand up to a dedicated weenie IG deck you're still going to bring home quite a few victory points in most cases. >> As for Dog Pack, it's a retainer that costs 1 pool. Not only >> do you have to take an action to use the retainer (which Freak >> Drive can admittedly take the sting out of...but costs 1 blood) >> but only _that_ vampire may use it and there are several cards >> that steal or destroy retainers. To top it off, I have given >> away literally milk crates filled with cards and I've only >> managed to acquire 2 copies. For stopping S:CE, Dog Pack falls >> _far_ short of "more easily than Thoughts Betrayed". > > So you get the retainer, Freak Drive, and Bum's Rush, then Ambush, > then Haven, then... all with Scorpion Stings in hand so the poor > bastards can't get away no matter WHAT. Restoration as needed to pay > for some Freak Drives. TB may be more common, but that 2 blood is a > pain. It's getting that retainer that's the problem. Even if, by some miracle, you manage to get six copies, you still have to get them on the vampire...an action that's invariably blocked. With TB, there's no action to block. Yes, it costs 2 blood and requires a vampire with DOM, but a DOM THA vampire (not too hard to come by) can easily play Trap, Thoughts Betrayed, Theft of Vitae (getting the 2 blood back), Walking on Sunshine. (Sorry about the Katrina and the Waves reference...I'm in an odd mood this morning) >> Y'know, I truly enjoy pissing people off. I'm a Unix Admin. It's >> what I do for a living. Thanks for making me smile. However, you >> ain't all that. *poke* *grin* > > (shrug) It's that particular phrase that does it. If you're a UNIX > admin, you should be just as allergic to that phrase as I am, since it > seems to be employed extensively by Marketing and/or HR. =) Yeah, but I'm also a smart ass most of the time....but you should know that by now. You've been tooling around here for longer than I have. >>> Ulugh Beg can do this twice and then must hunt. >>> (shudder) >> >> ...or go to the Fifth Traditional Hospital. > Horse Brutality requires a Prince or Justicar Isn't Ulugh Beg a Justicar? > The "One Vampire Wall" type of deck is awful vulnerable to people > figuring out ways to hose that one vamp (Hostile Takeover being the > most effective, but there are plenty of others.) Very true. We get a lot of Pentex Subervsions in our neck of the woods. I tend to play with vampires of 6-7 cap and below for many reasons, that being one of them. > In this case, without the maneuver, you need a full 5-cap vamp > to pull off the combo and not go to torpor itself. Yuck. A 5 cap isn't hard to come by. *shrug* >>>> Either way, I'm generally a bigger of fan of the "whatever >>>> you do, you get drained of blood/Society of Leopold" strategy. >>> >>> Which isn't especially tourney-viable as it tends to fall over >>> to light intercept and/or 2nd tradition, both of which are >>> reasonably common these days. >> >> There's multiple ways to drain people dry of blood..esp. in >> combat. You intercept my Slaughtering the Herd? Okay. Thoughts >> Betrayed and I Theft of Vitae. I press and Theft of Vitae and >> press and...wash/repeat. > > I don't normally see Cryptic Mission/SoL decks packing that much > combat. I didn't say that I use mainly Cryptic Mission. Certainly, that's part of it, but I try to use strategies that wear down the entire table all at once while building myself up. In a drain/SoL strategy, I would start with a deck that used table wide effects like Smiling Jack and Bureaucratic Over load and follow up with with continuing effects like StH and Seeds of Corruption. > Slaughtering the Herd looks neat, but works sort of slow > since it basically just makes someone spend one extra blood per > action, and it's only good on your predator, which doesn't help you > oust anyone. Bleh. Well, it may help me keep from getting ousted by my predator. *grin* But that restriction would keep it from being a cornerstone of my strategy unless I was using a Salmon strategy. > Yes, but most of the unblockables involve vampires going to torpor > afterwards, Concoction of Vitality, Toreador Grand Ball, Horrific Countenance > Nah. The only remotely upset at all is the stupid 'outside the box' > phrase. People like to toss it around when they don't know what to > do, and they want you to come up with an idea for them. *shrug* I tossed it around to be a smart ass and push your buttons a bit. I guess it worked. *grin* Noal [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Oh, I agree. His is an odd deck though. He uses stealth (Bonding + Alacrity of all combos) to get the bleeds/votes in. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

I'm for Hesha. Milos Dammer, Prince of Bratislava [ quoted text not captured ]

Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: > Let's beat this dead horse again. Wanna solve the Tremere whimp > factor? > Change the rules of stealing blood is resolved in the damage > resolution phase. Problem solved, period. NO new cards need to be > "custom" made for them. We play this way, it's wrong but it works > well. I don't think that's the point of what they/we are arguing. I think we'd like something that hinders S:CE/Dodge so that the Thaumaturgy cards like Walk of Flame, Blood Cauldron, etc. become usable cards. These cards are still useless against S:CE, if using your suggestion. Even if it were so that stealing blood could burn a vampire, the Thaumaturgy second round cards are still useless. > About the Nosferatu, Two cards that would be good for them: > 1. A card with their clan symbol that gives them like +2 or +3 bleed. > Make it a rare or uncommon. You know, Due to their vast knowledge of > everything going on in there cities. I'm sick of reading about how > they know more then all the other clans. A card like this would prove > they did and maybe somebody would actually play them again. Oy cabrone! Way too powerful for a clan that doesn't need it. "I'm bleeding you for 5, and if you block it I'm going to burn 2 of your minions." They need, as someone posted in another reply, more neat things like Tusk's power. Tiberius' power. They need information gathering. Using the Advantage for the !Nos is a good example of the type of card I mean as well. It represents the Nosferatu ability to sell the information they've gleaned. > 2. A combat ends card (again, for Nossie's only) like Catatonic Fear > that represents their scariness. Maybe Noss' above 5 capacity combat > ends with +1 damage. Well, I don't think they really need help in combat. If you're looking to avoid melee combat, you can use dodges and maneuvers to keep your oppenent from hitting you while letting your Animalism do damage to your opponent. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:44:55 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >> So you get the retainer, Freak Drive, and Bum's Rush, then Ambush, >> then Haven, then... all with Scorpion Stings in hand so the poor >> bastards can't get away no matter WHAT. Restoration as needed to pay >> for some Freak Drives. TB may be more common, but that 2 blood is a >> pain. > >It's getting that retainer that's the problem. Even if, by some >miracle, you manage to get six copies, you still have to get them on the >vampire...an action that's invariably blocked. With TB, there's no Earth Control, since you have PRO on that vampire anyway? =) Or Form of Mist... depending on what you're looking to do OUTSIDE of combat in the deck. I tend to toss a few Form of Mists in most Pro decks, since even making sure a bleed of 1 gets through can be important. >action to block. Yes, it costs 2 blood and requires a vampire with DOM, >but a DOM THA vampire (not too hard to come by) can easily play Trap, Hm. DOM/THA shows me Reverend Blackwood (6); Bryan Van Duesen and Astrid Thomas (7); Kij Dansky, Justine, and Ian Forestal (8). If you want to be intercepty, only the 8-caps have AUS and can Eagle's Sight those pesky bleeders. Not tidy, but bruise and bleed might be workable with these guys if you tossed 8-10 Blood Dolls in the deck. =) Checking DOM/tha shows me a 5 cap, two 6's, two 7's, and some 8's. Interestingly, I get one Tremere, two Tremere Anti, one Malkavian, one Gangrel (?@#!), and one Ventrue Anti. So much for the clan deck. =) Checking dom/THA (the wrong way to go about it, IMO, since your dom guys can't use TB, your main card) shows me Sarah, Merrill, and Muaziz. Better for the clan deck, worse if you don't get a skill card early. >Thoughts Betrayed, Theft of Vitae (getting the 2 blood back), Walking on >Sunshine. (Sorry about the Katrina and the Waves reference...I'm in an >odd mood this morning) sick. SICK, i tell you. sick sick sick. Just say "no" to fat redheads. (oops.) Back on topic, you still end up down two blood at the end of it all though, since you get punched twice (once each round). =) Somewhat untidy, although your guys are big enough to do it a few times and get away with it. Worth noting that to get a prince with DOM/THA, you have to go up to the evil 9 and 10-caps... >> Horse Brutality requires a Prince or Justicar > >Isn't Ulugh Beg a Justicar? ...which was my point when I wrote that. =) Sure, if you wanna make the Ulugh deck, he can do it all and Freak Drive too. But trying to get the capacities down to manageable runs you away from the Princes. =/ >> The "One Vampire Wall" type of deck is awful vulnerable to people >> figuring out ways to hose that one vamp (Hostile Takeover being the >> most effective, but there are plenty of others.) > >Very true. We get a lot of Pentex Subervsions in our neck of the woods. >I tend to play with vampires of 6-7 cap and below for many reasons, that >being one of them. We don't see Pentex Subversions much, but people 'round here get awful creative when it comes time to Remove One Vampire. It comes from having so many combat decks floating around, i think - when your predator and prey gang up on your Big Goon, he often goes away =) >> In this case, without the maneuver, you need a full 5-cap vamp >> to pull off the combo and not go to torpor itself. Yuck. > >A 5 cap isn't hard to come by. *shrug* Yeah, but when he's empty after one combat and has to hunt five times to do it again? =) Emphasis was on "full" there. >I didn't say that I use mainly Cryptic Mission. Certainly, that's part >of it, but I try to use strategies that wear down the entire table all >at once while building myself up. In a drain/SoL strategy, I would >start with a deck that used table wide effects like Smiling Jack and >Bureaucratic Over load and follow up with with continuing effects like >StH and Seeds of Corruption. Heh. You'd be amazed at the table deals that get made to dispose of Smiling Jack. =) "OK, you have the stealth to get by, so you do that and i'll Rush your prey a couple times." Although I'm overdue to make a Jack/Anarch/Antediluvian deck, frankly - just waiting for the right sick, twisted motivation. I'm thinking a chi/ANI deck would do well... block lots, trap/apportation for defense, cat's guidance to stay untapped for all the actions to remove Jack, Veiled Sight for those little buggers who want to sneak it by at +3 or +4. Yeah. =) Oh, and Delaying Tactics for the Anarchs, although if you only drop one or two they don't go away quite as quickly. >Well, it may help me keep from getting ousted by my predator. *grin* >But that restriction would keep it from being a cornerstone of my >strategy unless I was using a Salmon strategy. swim upstream, gain 2 VP? >> Yes, but most of the unblockables involve vampires going to torpor >> afterwards, > >Concoction of Vitality, Toreador Grand Ball, Horrific Countenance as you mentioned above, i don't see ANYONE letting a Concoction action get through, certainly not an intercept deck. Toreador Grand Ball is neat, but goes away if anyone sees it as a big threat. Horrific is functional, but complicated to set up since you have to toss skill cards around onto big guys who can SPEND that four. Most unblockables generally involve Day Op or Daring the Dawn with Ventrue Fortitude, since they can bleed for a gazillion. And they tend to save the unblockable for the "oust" bleed (making it worthwhile to possibly lose a vampire), so you just stop all the earlier ones and never get close enough to be ousted =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Here's another suggestion for a promo vamp: El Diablo Verde!!! Rob

>> It's getting that retainer that's the problem. Even if, by >> some miracle, you manage to get six copies, you still have >> to get them on the vampire...an action that's invariably >> blocked. > > Earth Control, since you have PRO on that vampire anyway? True. But I don't usually put Earth Control or Form of Mist (as you mentioned) in my Gangrel rush decks since the +2 (+3 total) stealth it gives me is typically going to defeated by decks that bother to block actions at all. Esp. since intercept is usually one of those "go big or go home" issues. And if I don't need the stealth, I don't want it clogging my hand. >> Yes, it costs 2 blood and requires a vampire with DOM, >> but a DOM THA vampire (not too hard to come by) > > Hm. DOM/THA shows me Reverend Blackwood(6); Bryan Van Duesen > and Astrid Thomas(7); Kij Dansky, Justine, and Ian Forestal(8). A 6 cap, two 7 caps and two 8 caps? Hrm. Not bad. Discipline cards can help, but you'd have to put 6 Dominate cards in a deck to have a reasonable chance of getting them out. > Heh. You'd be amazed at the table deals that get made to > dispose of Smiling Jack. =) Of course, if they're plotting to gun down Smiling Jack, they're not concentrating on what their decks are supposed to do. >> Well, it may help me keep from getting ousted by my >> predator. *grin* But that restriction would keep it >> from being a cornerstone of my strategy unless I was >> using a Salmon strategy. > > swim upstream, gain 2 VP? Yep. *smile* > as you mentioned above, i don't see ANYONE letting a Concoction > action get through, certainly not an intercept deck. Not unless they were presented with another action that they felt they had to block. I've done that before...offering bait before taking the really important action. Usually has some success. > Toreador Grand Ball is neat, but goes away if anyone sees it as > a big threat. How so? Once in play, there's no way to get rid of it. > Horrific is functional, but complicated to set up since you > have to toss skill cards around onto big guys who can SPEND > that four. True. I only used it in a Setite Temptation deck where I put Protean on my predator's vampire, stole it for a turn and used it for a Horrific/RtI combo. Both the NJL and WotC errata shot that strategy down...and with good reason. Since then, I haven't found a need for it. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > > >> It's getting that retainer that's the problem. Even if, by > >> some miracle, you manage to get six copies, you still have > >> to get them on the vampire...an action that's invariably > >> blocked. > > > > Earth Control, since you have PRO on that vampire anyway? > > True. But I don't usually put Earth Control or Form of Mist (as you > mentioned) in my Gangrel rush decks since the +2 (+3 total) stealth it > gives me is typically going to defeated by decks that bother to block > actions at all. Esp. since intercept is usually one of those "go big or different groups, and all, but I find myself up against a lot of decks with a sports bike or a rumor mill, at the moment. -- James Coupe

*snips everything except the important irrelevant stuff* lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > Although I'm overdue to make a Jack/Anarch/Antediluvian deck, frankly > - just waiting for the right sick, twisted motivation. I'm thinking a > chi/ANI deck would do well... block lots, trap/apportation for > defense, cat's guidance to stay untapped for all the actions to remove > Jack, Veiled Sight for those little buggers who want to sneak it by at > +3 or +4. Yeah. =) > Oh, and Delaying Tactics for the Anarchs, although if you only drop > one or two they don't go away quite as quickly. I've been tossing this idea around as well. At first I thought of Aus/Cel. Auspex to keep Jack alive, and Celerity to keep my minions alive (maneuvering, dodging and ending combat). I'd need something for offense though, and actions to lay into my prey (so he dies first - don't want them dying before I'm their predator, after all) would require untaps as well, and that might prevent me from keeping Jack alive long enough. Then I thought about the Ani/Aus combo, using Animalism as you suggested, for intercept and for untap ability. Plus, I now get Army of Rats to help, albeit a small amount, take down my prey. I still have Auspex to intercept, but now I have difficulty if a true combat deck comes knocking. Now I'm thinking about Ani/Cel. Get the intercept of Animalism. The untaps. Then the ability to run in combat with Celerity. Problem there is the lack of smaller vampires with those two disciplines. So now I'll tool around with Ani/Chi. Now with these two, do we still have a problem with combat decks? The Apparition (I'm assuming that's what you meant) doesn't seem to me like it would handle Pot well. I guess I'm not looking to be decent in combat. My main concern is getting the damaging cards out on the table, then protecting them. I think running in combat (long range for IG/S:CE for anything else) would require the fewest cards, as I wouldn't want to lessen my ability to block. Of course, having all your minions burned can lessen that ability as well. =) Any more ideas on this deck type? p. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > > Toreador Grand Ball is neat, but goes away if anyone sees it as > > a big threat. > > How so? Once in play, there's no way to get rid of it. Card text: "This card may be burned by any minion as a (D) action ..." -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > So now I'll tool around with Ani/Chi. Now with these two, do we still > have a problem with combat decks? The Apparition (I'm assuming that's > what you meant) doesn't seem to me like it would handle Pot well. It depends on the Potence deck. This past weekend, I played a Brujah Anathema vote/rush deck that uses Trap/Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, Fire in the Blood (pile 'em on!)/Flash (if needed)/IG to overcome even the most dedicated Fortitude deck. In a combat against Bernie, playing a Ravnos with Meat Cleavers trap deck, I had 6 hand damage from pre-range cards, a Trap and IG going. He pulled out 3 Apparitions, saving his vampire's skin since it's stackable and it lasts the duration of combat. And if you're worried about Thamaturgy strikes, Apparition works where fortitude damage prevention fails. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Card text: "This card may be burned by any minion as a (D) action ..." Hrm. I missed that. Thanks. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > > Although I'm overdue to make a Jack/Anarch/Antediluvian deck [snip] > > I've been tossing this idea around as well. > > [snip] > > Now I'm thinking about Ani/Cel. Get the intercept of Animalism. The > untaps. Then the ability to run in combat with Celerity. Problem > there is the lack of smaller vampires with those two disciplines. > [snip] > Any more ideas on this deck type? How about Animalism/Protean? Protean gives manevers with Quick Meld and Form of the Ghost, dodge/s:ce with Form of Mist, and lots of other cool stuff, too much to list really :) Plus there's (relatively) lots of (realtively) little vampires with both disciplines. You could pride yourself on making a crypt that included Mirembe Kabbada. Just be sure to put Caitlin in first :) -davey!

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > > Although I'm overdue to make a Jack/Anarch/Antediluvian deck, frankly > > At first I thought of Aus/Cel. Auspex to keep Jack alive, and Celerity > > Then I thought about the Ani/Aus combo, using Animalism as you > > Now I'm thinking about Ani/Cel. Get the intercept of Animalism. The > > So now I'll tool around with Ani/Chi. Now with these two, do we still > > Any more ideas on this deck type? Tzimisce. Sample deck: http://home.uchicago.edu/~awflower/tzimisce.html It needs work (built it before I had access to Ancient Hearts cards, like _Parthenon_!), but Tzimisce are built to play the "intercept everything and be scary while you're doing it" game. Fish.

Fish Flowers <awfl...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote: > On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Then I thought about the Ani/Aus combo, using Animalism as you > > Any more ideas on this deck type? > > Tzimisce. Yes, I've thought about the Tzimsce. I love the clan in general, and it's combo of Auspex and Animalism, but see below. > Sample deck: > http://home.uchicago.edu/~awflower/tzimisce.html > > It needs work (built it before I had access to Ancient Hearts cards, > like _Parthenon_!), but Tzimisce are built to play the "intercept > everything and be scary while you're doing it" game. The Parthenon will definitely help that deck. A problem I can see with the deck (and just using Tzimisce) is that in trying to make them scary when they block, which requires a lot of cards for Vicissitude, it may be taking away from their ability to protect all the cards you have in play. With Army of Rats, Smiling Jack, Powerbases and The Rack, you'd need to be able to untap and intercept (if against stealth) all the time. That's kind of what I'm going for, and I think the addition of offensive combat cards lessens that ability. I think also that a concentrated Potence deck will be picking off our blockers. We may send them to torpor with us, but they're using weenies whereas we're using bigger vamps. I guess my idea won't get many victory points unless the other Methuselahs just happen to fall in order from the Jacks and Ant. Awakenings. Army of Rats is a help there, but it's not great. The table-wide pool/blood loss is good. The pool gain is pretty good. Now I just need to be able to intercept all attempts at removing any of those and be able to keep my vampires healthy while doing it. I may take a look again at Auspex/Animalism, but I don't think the Vicissitude will be of much help for the deck I wanted to make. Thanks for the input. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

davey! <dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote: > How about Animalism/Protean? Protean gives manevers with Quick Meld > and Form of the Ghost, dodge/s:ce with Form of Mist, and lots of other > cool stuff, too much to list really :) Plus there's (relatively) lots > of (realtively) little vampires with both disciplines. You could pride > yourself on making a crypt that included Mirembe Kabbada. Just be sure > to put Caitlin in first :) Ooh, I will try that. I don't know why I haven't yet. Thanks. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > It depends on the Potence deck. This past weekend, I played a Brujah > Anathema vote/rush deck that uses Trap/Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, > Fire in the Blood (pile 'em on!)/Flash (if needed)/IG to overcome even > the most dedicated Fortitude deck. In a combat against Bernie, playing > a Ravnos with Meat Cleavers trap deck, I had 6 hand damage from > pre-range cards, a Trap and IG going. He pulled out 3 Apparitions, > saving his vampire's skin since it's stackable and it lasts the > duration of combat. > > And if you're worried about Thamaturgy strikes, Apparition works where > fortitude damage prevention fails. Hmm.. you know, I never seem to think about stacking. That's a good point though. I'll have to see if I have the cards for it. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:56:23 GMT, myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: >Fish Flowers <awfl...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: >> > Then I thought about the Ani/Aus combo, using Animalism as you >> > Any more ideas on this deck type? >> >> Tzimisce. > >Yes, I've thought about the Tzimsce. I love the clan in general, and >it's combo of Auspex and Animalism, but see below. Consider also a variant: http://intj.home.mindspring.com/jpa/decks/derek_Holy%20Intercept,%20Batman.html This deck made it to the finals of the War Room tourney in Atlanta, and could be easily modified to be a Jack/Rack/Anarch defender by pulling out the Carrion Crows and Pulses to make room. It tends to live, since it has oodles of maneuvers... and if you want to torporize people, stack Murder of Crows on one vampire (Anton is nice =) and use HIM to intercept everything. In a Jack/Rack deck, you maybe don't want to hose EVERYONE, so you could pull some more of the Crows and intercept cards and use, say, Raven Spies/Sport Bikes/Winthrop. I leaned away from the permanents because I needed mine to be a bit faster and had plenty already, but it might work in a different deck. I also found that when I had Anton out, I was DISCARDING intercept cards left and right. built-in +1 intercept on a vampire is very strong. >> Sample deck: >> http://home.uchicago.edu/~awflower/tzimisce.html >> >> It needs work (built it before I had access to Ancient Hearts cards, >> like _Parthenon_!), but Tzimisce are built to play the "intercept >> everything and be scary while you're doing it" game. -- Derek [ quoted text not captured ]

lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > Consider also a variant: > > This deck made it to the finals of the War Room tourney in Atlanta, > and could be easily modified to be a Jack/Rack/Anarch defender by > pulling out the Carrion Crows and Pulses to make room. It tends to > live, since it has oodles of maneuvers... and if you want to torporize > people, stack Murder of Crows on one vampire (Anton is nice =) and use > HIM to intercept everything. In a Jack/Rack deck, you maybe don't > want to hose EVERYONE, so you could pull some more of the Crows and > intercept cards and use, say, Raven Spies/Sport Bikes/Winthrop. I > leaned away from the permanents because I needed mine to be a bit > faster and had plenty already, but it might work in a different deck. > > I also found that when I had Anton out, I was DISCARDING intercept > cards left and right. built-in +1 intercept on a vampire is very > strong. It's a good deck. I made a Rats, Cats and a Bunch of Bats deck a while ago, with some tips from the players on the NG. Very fun, and competetive in a tournament environment. However, most of my friends are combat fiends. Two of them love to play Assamites, in fact. I found the deck sorely lacking when the Assamites came to town. It was actually better for their minions when I went to long range. I think that, at least for this particular deck I'm creating, I need some S:CE in there as well. Celerity and Protean both give me maneuver and S:CE capability, but I'm leaning towards Protean because of it's better stealth contribution. As to the blocking side of the deck, I'm still hung between Animalism and Auspex. I'm kind of leaning away from permanent intercept in this deck, but I would have to use it if I went with Animalism. Auspex does provide the better intercept, but going with it instead leaves me without cards like Army of Rats and Tier of Souls, which would be handy in helping to oust my prey. I guess any way I look at it, even if I am able to hold all my damaging cards (Jack, Anarch, Ant. Awake) in play, once the table realizes that it's going to be a race to oust their respective preys. I'll have to think of a way to squeeze in some prey-specific pool damage. It may just be bleeding and then untapping to protect my damagers. I may just be making this too hard. After all, I'm pondering either Aus/Cel or Ani/Pro. Heh... those are natural combos. And here I was starting this mess off thinking about Ani/Cel. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Oy cabrone! Way too powerful for a clan that doesn't need it. "I'm >bleeding you for 5, and if you block it I'm going to burn 2 of your >minions." They need, as someone posted in another reply, more neat >things like Tusk's power. Tiberius' power. They need information >gathering. Using the Advantage for the !Nos is a good example of the >type of card I mean as well. It represents the Nosferatu ability to >sell the information they've gleaned. Yeah, I think that the Nosferatu are one of the clans that are best represented by their cards. As for their "information-gathering" part, a lot of the vampires have abilities related to crypts, decks, and hands: Grendel lets you look at the top card of your crypt. Tiberius lets you look at the next card in the prey's library. Tusk lets you look at the top card of your library. Harrod lets you look at the cards in your prey's inactive region. (!Nos) Kendrick lets you look at cards in your prey's hand and discard politicals. (!Nos) Yong-Sun lets you burn cards from the prey's crypt. For other "information-related" cards: Destructive Secrets helps simulate their black-mailing abilities, though the effect is a bit one-sided (since it only affects one minion). Kindred Intelligence is like an Effective Management, only it requires a minion (instead of master) action. Nosferatu Hosting lets you look at the inactive vampires of ANY Methusaleh. The Secret Library of Alexandria helps cycling by letting one draw extra cards. Although the Nos' don't have much bleed power, their Obfuscate helps a lot. Not too hard to bleed with Night Moves... (!Nos) Dirty Little Secrets helps deck your opponent after a bleed. With the Secret Library, even those bleeds for 1 have all sorts of interesting side effects. And as was noted by the previous poster, (!Nos) Using the Advantage is another example. Thus, overall, the Nosferatu have a large variety of cards that represent the information-gathering skills they have. When combined with the !Nos, they become even more formidable. Of course, I do admit that the value of their information isn't necessarily that useful. Although it may be useful (like the Glasses of Urza), more often than not, it may turn out to be a waste of deck space. As for the Tremere (my favorite clan), although I understand why they made Thaumaturgy so combat-intensive (since the Tremere, Brujah, and Gangrel were supposed to be the "enforcers" of the Cam), one of the greatest strengths about Thaumaturgy is its versatility, which isn't represented very well in this game at all! Halcyan 2

> (!Nos) Dirty Little Secrets helps deck your opponent after a bleed. With the > Secret Library, even those bleeds for 1 have all sorts of interesting side > effects. I love this card. I've been tweaking a deck recently that makes significant use of this it. It is a Dom/For deck that uses it, Clan Impersonation, Freak Drive, Dawn Op, Restoration and a ton of Dom bleed cards. So when the DLS is played, they are generally losing 4 or 5 cards at a time. It has light stealth with Bonding and uses Dawn Op as a combat deterrent. Dawn Op generally works but when it doesn't, I throw down the Kiss of Ra. The deck is pretty blood intensive, but there are a ton of Freak Drives in here to allow me to untap and Restore when necessary. It's done moderately well... I'm trying to tweak it out so it does better. Sorrow --- no hate no wars no ignorance no politics no pain no force no weapons no oppression no sorrow no chemicals no dust no leaders no violence no dust no leaders no leaders now it's time for the world to see a man with open eyes now it's time to realize we tell ourselves the best of lies

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: *snip* > Thus, overall, the Nosferatu have a large variety of cards that > represent the information-gathering skills they have. When combined > with the !Nos, they become even more formidable. > > Of course, I do admit that the value of their information isn't > necessarily that useful. Although it may be useful (like the Glasses > of Urza), more often than not, it may turn out to be a waste of deck > space. I agree. They have plenty of neat little tricks, but not many of them seem to end up as main points of effective decks. It's not so much that they need more cards like these; it's that they need cards like these to work better for them. > As for the Tremere (my favorite clan), Tzimisce for me, so I may have to take back that part about agreeing with you. =) > although I understand why they made Thaumaturgy so combat-intensive > (since the Tremere, Brujah, and Gangrel were supposed to be the > "enforcers" of the Cam), one of the greatest strengths about > Thaumaturgy is its versatility, which isn't represented very well in > this game at all! I agree again. Geh. =) They are probably second only to the Nosferatu in information hording, and that's not represented well in V:TES. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > They need, as do the Assamites, a decent combat strike that qualifies as > > a hand strike. > > The Khabar: Honor is okay, but a bit of a corner case. > > > There's just no way that an Assamite, when reduced to > > hand strikes only, should become almost no combat threat at all. > > True... but they aren't a *brilliant* clan hand to hand, as I recall. Actually, Assamites are the one clan you DON'T want touching you. Most of their Quietus powers require physical contact to work. Leech, Scorpion's touch, Dagon's Call, Erosion, Clot -- all require physical contact, and if they get it, you're screwed, with a capital F. They should definitely have several 'Strike: Hand. Opposing minion gets the shaft, big time' cards. On a related note, wouldn't it be sweet if Fleshcraft and Bonecraft were changed to work like that? Man, that would kick ass. Tzimisce should LIKE getting up-close and personal, darn it!