LSJ: ashes/seeds/cards in play?

Ashes to Ashes: this is a combat card only? So you cannot play it when your vamp is burned due to a diablerie, sacrificial lamb, vulnerability, etc.? It would appear to be missing the reaction symbol that it should have like reform body does.... Seeds of Corruption: a ruling states that the blood is burned before the action. Does this mean that a vampire cannot act if he cannot burn that blood? If he can act, would the action fizzle if he hasn't paid that 2 blood +any additional costs by end of the action? If not, can he actually hunt at 0 blood, having no blood to burn at the beginning, and actually gain a blood from the hunt? Removing cards from play when ousted: what stays and what goes?

Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: > > Ashes to Ashes: this is a combat card only? So you cannot play it Yes (card text). > when your vamp is burned due to a diablerie, sacrificial lamb, > vulnerability, etc.? It would appear to be missing the reaction > symbol that it should have like reform body does.... It is missing all the symbols that it should not have. > Seeds of Corruption: a ruling states that the blood is burned before > the action. No. It says that the blood is burned when the action is attempted. > Does this mean that a vampire cannot act if he cannot > burn that blood? No. > If he can act, would the action fizzle if he hasn't > paid that 2 blood +any additional costs by end of the action? The action doesn't care about the 2 blood - the 2 blood is not a part of the cost of the action. > If not, > can he actually hunt at 0 blood, having no blood to burn at the > beginning, and actually gain a blood from the hunt? Yes. > Removing cards from play when ousted: what stays and what goes? Card the ousted Methuselah controls are burned. Other cards stay. [1.3] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <3c521177.529772647@news>, Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com writes: > >Ashes to Ashes: this is a combat card only? Correct. That's why it has a combat card symbol on it. > So you cannot play it >when your vamp is burned due to a diablerie, sacrificial lamb, >vulnerability, etc.? It would appear to be missing the reaction >symbol that it should have like reform body does.... Even with a reaction symbol on it (which it doesn't have and seems unlikely to have been intended to have or it would have been spotted by now), you couldn't play it against Vulnerability - there is nothing to react to. You need Rewind Time style text for that. >Seeds of Corruption: a ruling states that the blood is burned before >the action. Does this mean that a vampire cannot act if he cannot >burn that blood? No. It is simply an effect. The vampire burns it. So an empty vampire can hunt. They burn blood (which they ignore because they don't have), and then do the hunt action. > If he can act, would the action fizzle if he hasn't >paid that 2 blood +any additional costs by end of the action? It is not a payment of 2 blood; it is an effect. It will be burned. However, if a vampire were to, say, burn 2 blood, emptying themselves on a Govern the Unaligned action, and then the action would be successful but they can't pay for it, it fizzles, as usual. >If not, >can he actually hunt at 0 blood, having no blood to burn at the >beginning, and actually gain a blood from the hunt? Yes. >Removing cards from play when ousted: what stays and what goes? Any card you control is taken from play. By default, minion cards are controlled by the Methuselah who controls the minion they are on. (e.g. you control a Flamethrower on a minion you control) By default, master cards are controlled by the Methuselah who played them. So if you are ousted, the Haven Uncovered you control on your prey's vampire is taken with you. As is that cross-table Animalism master discipline you played. Any cards that other Methuselahs control which are in your play-region (such as an Animalism master discipline that they played cross-table on you) go into their ash-heaps. Any card that you have stolen from an opponent goes into their ash-heap. Any cards that are yours but another Methuselah controls stay with them until they die. See [1.3] "If you are ousted, all the cards you control are burned. Any of your opponents' cards you may control are placed in their respective owners' ash heaps (see Important Terms, sec. 1.1). Any of your cards that other players control remain until the controlling players are ousted." -- James Coupe "Never give in to them," she whispered. "No matter what PGP 0x5D623D5D EB they do or how important you feel it is to get their accep- D690ECD7A1FB457CA21 tance. Never kill part of yourself for them. Because other 3D7E668C3695D623D5D people will notice that part is missing before you do."

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:33:25 +0000, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > >See [1.3] > >"If you are ousted, all the cards you control are burned. Any of your >opponents' cards you may control are placed in their respective owners' >ash heaps (see Important Terms, sec. 1.1). Any of your cards that other >players control remain until the controlling players are ousted." > So my army of rats would go, but my cards (IE:blood clots) played on another meth's vampire stays? So essentially all your masters and minion cards in your play area go....minion cards played on other vamps stay, yes? T

Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:33:25 +0000, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> > >See [1.3] > > > >"If you are ousted, all the cards you control are burned. Any of your > >opponents' cards you may control are placed in their respective owners' > >ash heaps (see Important Terms, sec. 1.1). Any of your cards that other > >players control remain until the controlling players are ousted." > > So my army of rats would go, but my cards (IE:blood clots) played on > another meth's vampire stays? Cards controlled by other Methuselahs stay. Cards you control go. Cards you control on other Methuselah's minions go. > So essentially all your masters and minion cards in your play area > go....minion cards played on other vamps stay, yes? Barring any control exceptions given on card text, yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:54:45 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:33:25 +0000, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >> >See [1.3] >> > >> >"If you are ousted, all the cards you control are burned. Any of your >> >opponents' cards you may control are placed in their respective owners' >> >ash heaps (see Important Terms, sec. 1.1). Any of your cards that other >> >players control remain until the controlling players are ousted." >> >> So my army of rats would go, but my cards (IE:blood clots) played on >> another meth's vampire stays? > >Cards controlled by other Methuselahs stay. >Cards you control go. > >Cards you control on other Methuselah's minions go. > >> So essentially all your masters and minion cards in your play area >> go....minion cards played on other vamps stay, yes? > >Barring any control exceptions given on card text, yes. > So how do you determine that control when they are minion cards that affect other meths minions? Like blood clots above? T

>>Cards controlled by other Methuselahs stay. >>Cards you control go. >> >>Cards you control on other Methuselah's minions go. >> >>> So essentially all your masters and minion cards in your play area >>> go....minion cards played on other vamps stay, yes? >> >>Barring any control exceptions given on card text, yes. >> > > >So how do you determine that control when they are minion cards that >affect other meths minions? Like blood clots above? Doesn't matter. If Arika (I control her) plays a Masochism, the Masochism card goes on her and is controlled by me since it's a minion card. If you have Ur-Shulgi play a Blood Clots on Arika, the Blood Clots card (just like Masochism) is controlled by me since it's a minion card and it's on my vampire. In general, master cards are controlled by the person who played it and minion cards are controlled by the person who controls the minion they're on. Exceptions include if things are traded or stolen, or if there's explicit card text that says otherwise. Halcyan 2

Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:54:45 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > >Cards controlled by other Methuselahs stay. > >Cards you control go. > So how do you determine that control when they are minion cards that > affect other meths minions? Like blood clots above? Read sections 1.6.2, 1.6.3, and 1.4 of the rules. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Well thats more clear, thanks. Can you think of any such explicit card text exceptions? T

On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:53:40 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:54:45 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> >> >Cards controlled by other Methuselahs stay. >> >Cards you control go. > >> So how do you determine that control when they are minion cards that >> affect other meths minions? Like blood clots above? > >Read sections 1.6.2, 1.6.3, and 1.4 of the rules. > Er, thats drawing cards, requirements of playing cards, and the golden rule of ownership. In essence, the rulebook does not specify that minion cards you play on other meth's minions are now considered under thier 'control'. Might be a good one for the next rulebook. T

[ quoted text not captured ] Inferior Draba ('Put this card on a ready minion. You still control this card.') Superior Melange ('if you successfully block the acting minion, put this card on the acting minion; you still control this card') Phobia ('Put this card on any vampire; you still control this card.') Sensory Overload ('Put this card on a ready minion. You still control this card') Superior Shadow Twin ('...put this card on that minion. You still control this card.') Superior Sins of the Cauchemar ('Put this card on the acting vampmire. You still control this card.') Temptation ('Put this card on a ready vampire; you still control this card.') Note that Lunatic Eruption does not have a control-preserving clause, and indeed the burn action lacks the (D) reminder text (as the action would be undirected if attempted by a minion controlled by the Lunatic's controller). Interesting design decision there. Anarch Troublemaker, Millicent Smith, The Rack, Fragment of the Book of Nod, and The Coven all have explicit control-change clauses, but I don't think these are what you meant -- you were thinking of something like Curse of Nitocris, maybe, which is explicitly given to another Methuselah when played? Can't think of anything else, offhand, which is a master card played into someone else's play region and explicitly overrides the 'you control master cards you play' rule. gomi -- Blood, guts, guns, cuts Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts

<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3c56c233.177397950@news... [ quoted text not captured ] It's in the next rulebook. Maybe you're looking at an old rulebook? From the online rulebook: 1.6.2 (under Master Cards): "A master card in play is controlled by the Methuselah who played it by default, even if it is played on a card controlled by another Methuselah." 1.6.3 (Minion Cards): "By default, a minion card in play is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. If a minion card is just in play and not on another controlled card, then it is, by default, controlled by the Methuselah who played it." 1.4 (The Golden Rule for Cards): "Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence." I'm pretty sure these section numberings exactly match the Final Nights printed rulebook, and likely the Sabbat War one as well. Josh uh huh yeah yeah

Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: > >Read sections 1.6.2, 1.6.3, and 1.4 of the rules. > > > > Er, thats drawing cards, requirements of playing cards, and the golden > rule of ownership. No. You're confusing 1.6.2 with 1.6.1.2 (and similarly *.3). > In essence, the rulebook does not specify that minion cards you play > on other meth's minions are now considered under thier 'control'. > Might be a good one for the next rulebook. The current rulebook says this already. [1.6.3] [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:15:50 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote: >> >Read sections 1.6.2, 1.6.3, and 1.4 of the rules. >> > >> >> Er, thats drawing cards, requirements of playing cards, and the golden >> rule of ownership. > >No. You're confusing 1.6.2 with 1.6.1.2 (and similarly *.3). > >> In essence, the rulebook does not specify that minion cards you play >> on other meth's minions are now considered under thier 'control'. >> Might be a good one for the next rulebook. > >The current rulebook says this already. [1.6.3] > Oops sorry was confusing myself by applying another rule numbering system from another game. Thanks for the clarification. T

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a34hkh$15q1na$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... <SNIP> > From the online rulebook: > > 1.6.2 (under Master Cards): "A master card in play is > controlled by the Methuselah who played it by default, even > if it is played on a card controlled by another Methuselah." Wasn't there some kind of rule of thumb that said that if the card takes a D Action to get rid of then it goes when the Meth that plays it goes, but if it does not have an action against the Meth that played it (to get rid of the card) then it stays. Cards like Fame, The Damned, Fear of Mekhet, Gangrel Atavism, Aching Beauty, The Art of Pain or ANY of the Discipline Master Cards would all go away based on the rule stated above. Is that how it works? Thanks for any clarification! Mari "Oh bother," said The Borg, "We've assimmilated Pooh."

Mari wrote: > > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a34hkh$15q1na$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > > <SNIP> > > > From the online rulebook: > > > > 1.6.2 (under Master Cards): "A master card in play is > > controlled by the Methuselah who played it by default, even > > if it is played on a card controlled by another Methuselah." > > Wasn't there some kind of rule of thumb that said that if the card > takes a D Action to get rid of then it goes when the Meth that plays > it goes, but if it does not have an action against the Meth that > played it (to get rid of the card) then it stays. Cards like Fame, > The Damned, Fear of Mekhet, Gangrel Atavism, Aching Beauty, The Art of > Pain or ANY of the Discipline Master Cards would all go away based on > the rule stated above. > > Is that how it works? No. There's never been such a rule. Your examples don't match the fictional rule, either. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C593F1C...@white-wolf.com>... > Mari wrote: > > > > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a34hkh$15q1na$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > > > > <SNIP> > > > > > From the online rulebook: > > > > > > 1.6.2 (under Master Cards): "A master card in play is > > > controlled by the Methuselah who played it by default, even > > > if it is played on a card controlled by another Methuselah." > > > > Wasn't there some kind of rule of thumb that said that if the card > > takes a D Action to get rid of then it goes when the Meth that plays > > it goes, but if it does not have an action against the Meth that > > played it (to get rid of the card) then it stays. Cards like Fame, > > The Damned, Fear of Mekhet, Gangrel Atavism, Aching Beauty, The Art of > > Pain or ANY of the Discipline Master Cards would all go away based on > > the rule stated above. > > > > Is that how it works? > > No. There's never been such a rule. > Your examples don't match the fictional rule, either. OK I apologize if i am just not getting it here... If I play Feral Spirit on my prey's vampire and I get ousted, does the Feral Spirit go with me and the vampire turn back into a Gangrel or !Gangrel? If I play Gangrel Atavism on my Predator's Gangrel and I get ousted, does the Gangrel Atavism disappear and the -1 bleed go away? If i put a Presence Discipline card on my Grand-Prey's Vampire and I get ousted, does the Presence Skill card go with me and the vampire's skill in Presence and their capacity get reduced? Based on the rule quoted from the rulebook, the answer to all three of the questions above is a "yes". There are specific Master cards that get played on another Methuselah's vampire that require an action against the Methuselah that played it to get rid of it. (For example, Haven Uncovered or Oath of Loyalty) I can understand that if I played one of the D-Action burnable cards on another Methuselah's vampire and then get ousted they would go with me because there would be no one to direct the D action at. Same thing with Unique Masters (like Fame) - There is no specific card text about burning it with an action, but if I get ousted there would be no one to pay the cost to contest (since it is unique) so it would have to go with me when I get ousted. So I just want to know what Master Cards would stay and what goes with me when I get ousted? Thanks for your patience and clarification as I try to muddle my way through this. Mari "Oh bother," said The Borg, "We've assimmilated Pooh." CARD TEXT: Feral Spirit Type: Master Cost: 0 Card Text: Put this card on any Gangrel or Gangrel antitribu you control. This vampire is now an Ahrimane (and Sabbat). This vampire has Spiritus; if the vampire already had Spiritus, he or she now has superior Spiritus. This vampire is now Sterile. Gangrel Atavism Type: Master Cost: 0 Card Text: Put this card on a Gangrel. That vampire gets -1 bleed on each bleed action Presence Type: Master Cost: 0 Card Text: Discipline. Put this card on a vampire. This vampire has Presence. If the vampire already had Presence, he or she now has superior Presence. Capacity increases by 1: the vampire is one generation older. Cannot be played on a vampire with superior Presence. Haven Uncovered Type: Master Cost: 0 Card Text: Put this card on any ready vampire. Any minion not controlled by that vampire's controller may enter combat with that vampire as a +1 stealth (D) action. That vampire can burn this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. Oath of Loyalty Type: Master Cost: 0 Card Text: Put this card on an Assamite controlled by another Methuselah. That Assamite cannot attempt to bleed you. This card can be burned by another Assamite as a (D) action. Fame Type: Master Cost: 0 Card Text: Unique. Put this card on a ready vampire. If he or she goes into torpor, the vampire's controller burns 3 pool. Each Methuselah burns 1 pool during his or her untap phase if this vampire is in torpor.

On 1/31/2002 11:35:00 AM PST Mari posted: <SNIP> > If I play Feral Spirit on my prey's vampire and I get ousted, does the Feral > Spirit go with me and the vampire turn back into a Gangrel or !Gangrel? My example of Feral Spirit wouldn't work unless someone stole my vamp that had Feral Spirit on it. I forgot that it had to be on one of my Vamps. Disregard that example. Sorry! [ quoted text not captured ]

Mari wrote: > > > > 1.6.2 (under Master Cards): "A master card in play is > > > > controlled by the Methuselah who played it by default, even > > > > if it is played on a card controlled by another Methuselah." > OK I apologize if i am just not getting it here... If I play Feral > Spirit on my prey's vampire and I get ousted, does the Feral Spirit go > with me and the vampire turn back into a Gangrel or !Gangrel? If I Yes, except that FS can only be played on your vampires (card text). If the FS vampire is then stolen, however, you still control the master card. > play Gangrel Atavism on my Predator's Gangrel and I get ousted, does > the Gangrel Atavism disappear and the -1 bleed go away? If i put a Yes. > Presence Discipline card on my Grand-Prey's Vampire and I get ousted, > does the Presence Skill card go with me and the vampire's skill in > Presence and their capacity get reduced? Yes. > Based on the rule quoted from the rulebook, the answer to all three of > the questions above is a "yes". Right. > There are specific Master cards that get played on another > Methuselah's vampire that require an action against the Methuselah > that played it to get rid of it. (For example, Haven Uncovered or Oath > of Loyalty) I can understand that if I played one of the D-Action > burnable cards on another Methuselah's vampire and then get ousted > they would go with me because there would be no one to direct the D > action at. Same thing with Unique Masters (like Fame) - There is no They go away only because their controller (you) is ousted. > specific card text about burning it with an action, but if I get > ousted there would be no one to pay the cost to contest (since it is > unique) so it would have to go with me when I get ousted. All cards you control are burned when you are ousted. > So I just want to know what Master Cards would stay and what goes with > me when I get ousted? The cards you control go. The other cards stay (unless they're "on" cards that go). See 1.6.2 and 1.6.3 for a description of control. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <86a54eb0.02013...@posting.google.com>, Mari <tink...@geocities.com> writes: >OK I apologize if i am just not getting it here... If I play Feral >Spirit It is a master card; it is controlled by the person who played it, until card text alters this. >on my prey's vampire This is not possible. Feral Spirit must be played on a vampire you control. However, assuming you played Feral Spirit and then your prey got control of the vampire... >and I get ousted, does the Feral Spirit go >with me Yes. Nothing has changed the controlled status of the master card, so you still control it. >and the vampire turn back into a Gangrel or !Gangrel? I'm *slightly* unsure, but would say yes. The "put this card on the vampire" tends to imply that it is causative, rather than purely reminder, and follows the Discipline card template. >If I >play Gangrel Atavism on my Predator's Gangrel and I get ousted, does >the Gangrel Atavism disappear and the -1 bleed go away? Yes, because you still control it. >If i put a >Presence Discipline card on my Grand-Prey's Vampire and I get ousted, >does the Presence Skill card go with me and the vampire's skill in >Presence and their capacity get reduced? Yes. >There are specific Master cards that get played on another >Methuselah's vampire that require an action against the Methuselah >that played it to get rid of it. Correct. >(For example, Haven Uncovered or Oath >of Loyalty) I can understand that if I played one of the D-Action >burnable cards on another Methuselah's vampire and then get ousted >they would go with me because there would be no one to direct the D >action at. This is not true. This is entirely fictional and something that has never been part of the rules, and I have no idea where this notion has come from. However, the card would go with you because you control it. Master cards are controlled by the player until something changes this. Nothing has changed, so you are ousted and it goes with you. > Same thing with Unique Masters (like Fame) - There is no >specific card text about burning it with an action, but if I get >ousted there would be no one to pay the cost to contest (since it is >unique) so it would have to go with me when I get ousted. No, still not true. Such cards being burned are only handled by whether you control them or not. >So I just want to know what Master Cards would stay and what goes with >me when I get ousted? All master cards are controlled by you, unless card text changes this. When you go, everything in your play area (whether you control it or not) is burned. Everything else in other people's play areas goes if you control it. All master cards you have played will still be controlled by you, unless card text has changed this. (e.g. Malkavian Time Auction, Curse of Nitocris) What a card says or does it not relevant to whether it is burned when you are ousted; only if you control it or if it is in your play area. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<ErrFxESJ...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... <snip> > All master cards are controlled by you, unless card text changes this. > > When you go, everything in your play area (whether you control it or > not) is burned. Everything else in other people's play areas goes if > you control it. > > All master cards you have played will still be controlled by you, unless > card text has changed this. (e.g. Malkavian Time Auction, Curse of > Nitocris) > > > What a card says or does it not relevant to whether it is burned when > you are ousted; only if you control it or if it is in your play area. Say, for example, that I play a Blood Doll on one of my vampires and that vampire is Corrupted. I get ousted. The blood doll goes away but the vampire doesn't? Is there any difference in how this would be treated if it happened in a sanctioned tournament as opposed to a game being played strictly by the V:TES rule book rules? Thanks Jake

In message <5a5ad716.02013...@posting.google.com>, Jake Rake <nako...@yahoo.com> writes: >Say, for example, that I play a Blood Doll on one of my vampires and >that vampire is Corrupted. I get ousted. The blood doll goes away >but the vampire doesn't? The control of Blood Doll hasn't changed. The control of the minion cards on it (e.g. your Flak Jacket that you equipped) would have done. So it goes out with you. >Is there any difference in how this would be treated if it happened in >a sanctioned tournament as opposed to a game being played strictly by >the V:TES rule book rules? Nope. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:12:17 +0000, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <5a5ad716.02013...@posting.google.com>, Jake Rake ><nako...@yahoo.com> writes: >>Say, for example, that I play a Blood Doll on one of my vampires and >>that vampire is Corrupted. I get ousted. The blood doll goes away >>but the vampire doesn't? > >The control of Blood Doll hasn't changed. The control of the minion >cards on it (e.g. your Flak Jacket that you equipped) would have done. > >So it goes out with you. > >>Is there any difference in how this would be treated if it happened in >>a sanctioned tournament as opposed to a game being played strictly by >>the V:TES rule book rules? > >Nope. > Who gets to use the blood doll in the meantime? Controller of BD or the vamp? Or neither, because neither controls both cards together? T

<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3c5ae79b.513990339@news... > > {snip - Blood Dolled vamp gets stolen...} > > Who gets to use the blood doll in the meantime? Controller of BD or > the vamp? Or neither, because neither controls both cards together? > The Blood Doll is *controlled* by you. However, notice that Blood Doll says nothing about its controller. Blood Doll says, "the Methuselah controlling the vampire with this card may..."

<> Who gets to use the blood doll in the meantime? Controller of BD or > the vamp? Or neither, because neither controls both cards together? > According to the text on Blood Doll: Card Text: Put this card on a vampire you control. During his or her master phase, ***the Methuselah*** CONTROLLING *** the vampire*** with this card may move 1 blood from the vampire to his or her blood pool or from his or her blood pool to the vampire. So to answer your question, the controller of the vampire does. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp