LSJ: Domain Challenge vs Forced March?

Hi all, This question came up last night in our game. Can you play Forced March inferior to untap the acting vampire before the referendum of Domain Challenge counts tapped minions? I've found the below ruling for Domain Challenge I read it as you can. I've also found rulings stating that you can't play Freak Drive since it happens at the end of the action. Forced March inferior however happens when thes action is successful, which would imply to me when all the block attempts are unsucessful (rulebook 6.3.2). After reading the rule book, the cards and the Domain Challenge Rulling I would say that you can use Forced March to untap and not have the acting minion counted as tapped for the referendum. Am I correct? Domain Challenge: Tapped minions are counted after the referendum is completed. [RTR 19941109] Forced March [KMW:C/PAn2] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Celerity & Fortitude A vampire can play only one Forced March each turn. [cel][for] Only usable when an action is successful. This vampire untaps. [CEL][FOR] +1 stealth, and at the end of the action, the acting vampire may burn 1 blood to untap if the action is successful. Name: Domain Challenge [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:C/PV2, Anarchs:PAB] Cardtype: Political Action Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each tapped minion he or she controls.

bernard....@gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, > > This question came up last night in our game. Can you play Forced March > inferior to untap the acting vampire before the referendum of Domain > Challenge counts tapped minions? > > I've found the below ruling for Domain Challenge I read it as you can. > I've also found rulings stating that you can't play Freak Drive since > it happens at the end of the action. Forced March inferior however > happens when thes action is successful, which would imply to me when > all the block attempts are unsucessful (rulebook 6.3.2). > > After reading the rule book, the cards and the Domain Challenge Rulling > I would say that you can use Forced March to untap and not have the > acting minion counted as tapped for the referendum. Am I correct? what would happen if then someone played Delaying Tactics during the referendum? The action is no longer successful. So you need to wait until after the referendum to know the action is successful. Note: the referendum can fail and the action still be successful. -- salem http://users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/vtes/ (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

Salem wrote: > bernard....@gmail.com wrote: > > This question came up last night in our game. Can you play Forced March > > inferior to untap the acting vampire before the referendum of Domain > > Challenge counts tapped minions? *SNIP* > what would happen if then someone played Delaying Tactics during the > referendum? > > The action is no longer successful. > > So you need to wait until after the referendum to know the action is > successful. > > Note: the referendum can fail and the action still be successful. What if one has played Pulse of the Canaille (inf) and looked at all Methuselah's hands, seeing that no one has Delaying Tactics. In addition one sees (knows) that no one has a chance to cycle their hand or draw extra cards (their hand didn't contain vote cards that they could discard during the referendum, no DI's, no one has untapped Barrens/Dreams etc. in play...)? Similarly, in a two-player situation one can have Revelations in play (there are also some special abilities etc. which allow "peeping" of other people's cards in hand, like Fleurdumal's etc., allowing one to know the what they are in certain situations involving more than two players). I suppose this is may have been adressed before, I only searched "Forced March LSJ and something about Domain of Evernight which has similar wording as FM [inf] at TEM [sup]. I would assume that information available to only one methuselah can't be used as a basis to make a reliable statement that an action IS succesful. Judge could confirm this information in a tournament, however... Similar, perhaps more important, question: Can one play FM [inf] (or Domain of Evernight [sup]) after a succesful Bum's Rush (or other action), but before the action is concluded (during combat, for example)? Thanks, (and apologies for the complicated sentence structures/grammatical errors), Heikki P.

bernard....@gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, > > This question came up last night in our game. Can you play Forced March > inferior to untap the acting vampire before the referendum of Domain > Challenge counts tapped minions? No. Forced March is played after resolution (when the action is successful).

Salem wrote: > bernard....@gmail.com wrote: > what would happen if then someone played Delaying Tactics during the > referendum? > The action is no longer successful. The *referendum* is not successful (canceled). > Note: the referendum can fail and the action still be successful. Exactly. That's the case with Delaying Tactics: if someone played it, it means there was a referendum to be cancelled, so the action was successful and elligible for Forced March play. In any case, applying the results of the referendum is part of the resolution of the action, and Forced March/Freak Drive are played after that. Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo wrote: > Salem wrote: >> bernard....@gmail.com wrote: >> what would happen if then someone played Delaying Tactics during the >> referendum? >> The action is no longer successful. > > The *referendum* is not successful (canceled). good catch. I assumed from the fact that you untap the acting vampire and put the action card back into your hand that the action was not considered successful, but card text does not support my interpretation. Hmmm. Do you get the edge, then, if Sargon calls a vote and it's Delaying Tactics-ed? Intuitively, I think 'no'. But again, that's because I still can't get my head past the action not _really_ being successful until after the referendum is finished. [ quoted text not captured ]

Salem wrote: > Hmmm. Do you get the edge, then, if Sargon calls a vote and it's > Delaying Tactics-ed? Yes.

[ quoted text not captured ] hmmm. this sounds like it may have been answered before. ah, yup. well, sort of: ************* From: LSJ - view profile Date: Sat, Dec 22 2001 4:55 am Jozxyqk wrote: > If Sargon performs a Political action, when does he get the edge? > Before or after the referendum? After. And you get it even if the referendum fails. -- LSJ (vtes...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ *************** Thanks LSJ. Sorry for not googling earlier. [ quoted text not captured ]