yesterday, I played a Aid from Bats (sup) and wanted to taste. I played a
Taste of Vitae without first saying: "I press". According to my predator I
wasn't allowed to press. I was saying 'well, I haven't said:" I don't
press", so I just played my Taste too soon and we have to rewind to the
previous game state' Because he kept on whining I just let him have his
way, but I don't think it was right.
Yes, I made a mistake. But my mistake was not not pressing, but playing the
taste in the press step. right?
[ quoted text not captured ]
The most common way to handle this sort of mistake is not to rewind. You
made a mistake, deal with it. The steps of combat - unless you actually
name each and every phase and urge your opponent to play any cards they
want to - are pretty much obvious. Two non-combat decks often go
something like this:
Acting minion: you block. Hands for one.
Blocking minion: me too.
...instead of reciting the whole combat from "no Pre-Range" to "nothing
at the end of combat".
So, by playing Taste you declared through action that as far as you were
concerned, the round was ended.
Kind of like realizing during your minion phase that you forgot to play
a Master. Or untapping a minion who equipped with Leather Jacket and
then wanting to go back and discard, or influence. Or saying "no block"
when in fact you had a Wake in hand and could've blocked. Your mistake,
deal with it, next time you'll pay more attention.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Jeroen wrote:
>Yes, I made a mistake. But my mistake >was not not pressing, but
playing the
>taste in the press step. right?
Taste is played at the end of the round. As the rules work, you gotta
press, then when the round ends, you play Taste.
Granted, this is a very common mistake, especially as Taste didn't used
to work like that. In casual play, I'd figure that you just back up and
fix it (unless, like, you got the press by drawing into it off the
Taste). In actual play, though, once you Taste, there is no room to
press anymore, so be careful.
-Peter
Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Correct. You played the Taste illegally -- before you passed your opportunity
to press and then allowed your opponent the opportunity to press.
For instance, you cannot race to play Taste to prevent your opponent from
playing presses. Just as you would have to rewind in that case, you have
to rewind in this case as well.
--
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
[ quoted text not captured ]
Here's a can of worms I've spent plenty of time in. The officially
correct way to handle this is to rewind to the point of the mistake. In
this case, based on the information at hand, the mistake was that you
skipped the press step. Everybody should be in agreement on what phase
you are in at all times.
Not handling this in the official way ends up sanctioning an odd
variant of the game that where phases are skipped and opportunities to
play cards or react are lost. On the other hand, handling these
mistakes in the official way can allow a player who legitmately makes a
bad decision to remake their decision.
For example, if the truth was that you mentally went to the press step
and chose not to press and then played Taste and your Taste was DI'd
and then you "remembered" your press (aka "changed your mind") then
you've basically been allowed to benefit from your mistake. Overall,
you are probably better off handling the rewind in the official way.
There are already plenty of opportunities for cheating in this game and
there's no sense harming all of your games in the name of protecting
against cheats or just for the sake of punishing players who make these
procedural errors (and rewarding those who are better at following the
procedures).
Of course, the best way to take care of this is to play the stinking
cards in the right phases, announce card plays and actions fully and
completely, and quickly step through all of the combat phases.
-Robert
On 17 May 2005 09:58:08 -0700, "Robert Goudie" <rob...@vtesinla.org>
wrote:
>Of course, the best way to take care of this is to play the stinking
>cards in the right phases, announce card plays and actions fully and
>completely, and quickly step through all of the combat phases.
>-Robert
Unfortunately, some players think that this is a waste of time if both
players involved "know" that their combat will be "Hands for one" and
nothing else (and I'm not specifically talking about you, Daneel, this
happens just as often in my playgroup as well). This "I know how this
combat will be like" leads to many problems, even when one or both
players are right in their assumptions of what will be played -
there's till the "when" issue to deal with.
During our qualifier's finals last sunday, the winner kept "jumping"
stages to keep things quick. He knew that his prey had only Dodges for
combat defense (and he was right in this assumption) and rushed things
too much. A common situation he'd thrown himself in was this:
A: Rush with Beast.
B: No block.
A: Something pre-range?
B: Not.
A: OK, so I play Torn Signpost.
Since A was the acting minion the judge ruled that asking for B's
pre-range effects was equivalent to passing the chance to play
pre-range effects himself. As far as I remember, he was right. LSJ,
could you please confirm?
best,
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
"Fabio "Sooner" Macedo" <fabio_...@NOSPAMyahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:35ck81lsj9o40r5d5...@4ax.com...
> On 17 May 2005 09:58:08 -0700, "Robert Goudie" <rob...@vtesinla.org>
> wrote:
>>>Of course, the best way to take care of this is to play the stinking
>>cards in the right phases, announce card plays and actions fully and
>>completely, and quickly step through all of the combat phases.>> Unfortunately, some players think that this is a waste of time if both
> players involved "know" that their combat will be "Hands for one" and
> nothing else (and I'm not specifically talking about you, Daneel, this
> happens just as often in my playgroup as well). This "I know how this
> combat will be like" leads to many problems, even when one or both
> players are right in their assumptions of what will be played -
> there's till the "when" issue to deal with.
>
> During our qualifier's finals last sunday, the winner kept "jumping"
> stages to keep things quick. He knew that his prey had only Dodges for
> combat defense (and he was right in this assumption) and rushed things
> too much. A common situation he'd thrown himself in was this:
>
> A: Rush with Beast.
> B: No block.
> A: Something pre-range?
> B: Not.
> A: OK, so I play Torn Signpost.
>
> Since A was the acting minion the judge ruled that asking for B's
> pre-range effects was equivalent to passing the chance to play
> pre-range effects himself. As far as I remember, he was right. LSJ,
> could you please confirm?
I'd say the judge was right. In this case rewind isn't necessary
because, 1) Player A is skipping over only his own option and not
his opponent; and 2) In doing so, Player A would actually increase
the play advantage Robert was talking about because Player B only
would have to commit to something that Player A did not; which is
different from what LSJ was talking about where both players
options got skipped.
Anyway, what has this to do with players thinking that playing
correctly is a waste of time in some instances? I can see where
that would be arguable in many cases (as with the "hands for one"
thing) but what Player A is doing above doesn't save any time at all
as far as I can see. It's just plain wrong and saves no time either.
I've found this kind of thing happens because players don't
understand an important point about the rules and they start forming
bad habits about declaring options that need to be corrected.
Fred
Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Fabio "Sooner" Macedo" <fabio_...@NOSPAMyahoo.com.br> wrote in message>>A: Rush with Beast.
>>B: No block.
>>A: Something pre-range?
>>B: Not.
>>A: OK, so I play Torn Signpost.
>>
>>Since A was the acting minion the judge ruled that asking for B's
>>pre-range effects was equivalent to passing the chance to play
>>pre-range effects himself. As far as I remember, he was right. LSJ,
>>could you please confirm?>
> I'd say the judge was right. In this case rewind isn't necessary
> because, 1) Player A is skipping over only his own option and not
> his opponent;
Well, really, he isn't even skipping his own -- he's merely passing,
as required. "Any pre-range?" is equivalent to "I play no pre-range."
to most players' understanding. If he intended it otherwise (if
he misunderstands the rule -- that is, if this is only his first or
second game involving any real combat) then it may be a case of
getting things out of order and he should be corrected.
For an experienced judge/opponent, though, it is easy to tell
the difference.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
In casual play, we'd let you take it back without question (we play
loose here). If it became a problem, our corrections of your mistake
each time would be progressively louder. :)
In a tournament, the judge ought to rewind the state and give you your
press. The judge ought to also caution you for playing out of turn.
Official warnings and even game losses can be administered as
necessary.
Jeff
[ quoted text not captured ]
I agree, but sometimes people don't see it.
>I've found this kind of thing happens because players don't
>understand an important point about the rules and they start forming
>bad habits about declaring options that need to be corrected.
>Fred
"Bad habits" is key in here, surely.
best,
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
On Tue, 17 May 2005 19:02:30 GMT, LSJ <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:
>Frederick Scott wrote:>> "Fabio "Sooner" Macedo" <fabio_...@NOSPAMyahoo.com.br> wrote in message>>>A: Rush with Beast.
>>>B: No block.
>>>A: Something pre-range?
>>>B: Not.
>>>A: OK, so I play Torn Signpost.
>>>
>>>Since A was the acting minion the judge ruled that asking for B's
>>>pre-range effects was equivalent to passing the chance to play
>>>pre-range effects himself. As far as I remember, he was right. LSJ,
>>>could you please confirm?>>
>> I'd say the judge was right. In this case rewind isn't necessary
>> because, 1) Player A is skipping over only his own option and not
>> his opponent;>
>Well, really, he isn't even skipping his own -- he's merely passing,
>as required. "Any pre-range?" is equivalent to "I play no pre-range."
>to most players' understanding. If he intended it otherwise (if
>he misunderstands the rule -- that is, if this is only his first or
>second game involving any real combat) then it may be a case of
>getting things out of order and he should be corrected.
>
>For an experienced judge/opponent, though, it is easy to tell
>the difference.
In the aforementioned case, the player was not a newbie or something
like that, but he hasn't been playing for some time. Maybe more than a
year. But he won the qualifier, so he couldn't be *that* out of tune
to the game at the moment to the point of forgetting the proper steps
and sequencing of combat entirely ;).
Anyway, personally I find it better to rule that he passed the chance
so he will pay attention to the proper sequence next time - thus
encouraging to play properly. Since he commited the same "error" at
least three times, I concluded that it was somewhat of a rush to make
things quick for some reason. At least that was the impression I had
as his predator. The table also timed out, which just adds up to that
impression.
best,
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
No, with playing the taste, you announced (without words but obviously)
that you pass your press. It is the same like playing a master card
ends the untap phase and you cannot get pool from the edge anymore.
<x5m...@gmx.de> schreef in bericht
news:1116399750.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
no, see LSJ's answer. I was right.
It's not really the same: getting a pool from the edge is not mandatory,
going through the press step is.
Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
> no, see LSJ's answer. I was right.
>
> It's not really the same: getting a pool from the edge is not mandatory,
> going through the press step is.
That愀 why I usually try to "moderate" the combats my minions are
involved in. Like "No pre-range from me. You? No maneuver from me? You?
No pre-strike from me. You? I strike hands. You? ..." that avoids all
kind of sketchy situations and considerably speeds up game-play (for
this very reason I also try to do it when to other meths fight from time
to time).
--
johannes walch
[ quoted text not captured ]
It is all very good. Or not.
But be considerate about rushing people (no pun intended). The choice
between a Sewer Lid or Burning Wrath strike is not always a simple one.
In the range step you need to evaluate the entire table situation (if
you burn a minion can you predator survive.. that sort of thing) and you
can't explain what you are doing without giving you hand away.
Even if I explain that I need time to consider and people (usually) say
"sure" I have already given away information. As long as people aren't
stalling or something... give them the time they need.
Frede