Rotshreck vs First Strike

Please excuse if this has been asked before, but I've searched the newgroup and couldn't find a clear answer. If a reacting vampire is in the process of being burned or sent to torpor with a first strike, is he still able to choose an agg damage strike and save his skin with Rotshreck? -Kenneth

Kenneth wrote: > > Please excuse if this has been asked before, but I've searched the > newgroup and couldn't find a clear answer. > > If a reacting vampire is in the process of being burned or sent to > torpor with a first strike, is he still able to choose an agg damage > strike and save his skin with Rotshreck? > > -Kenneth I would say yes since Rotshreck is played when a vampire attempts to use agg damage. Combat ends immediately and there is no strike resolution at all. No first strike no combat ends ( except for the combat ends from ROtshreck). Rotshreck is a very versatile card especially when combined with Tzimisce who can intercept and have access to long range ( BotD) and short range (CM, BA) agg damage. Carsten

Carsten isselhorst wrote: > > > I would say yes since Rotshreck is played when a vampire attempts to use > agg damage. Combat ends immediately and there is no strike resolution at > all. > No first strike no combat ends ( except for the combat ends from > ROtshreck). Hm, your probably right but I was thinking since First Strike effects are resolved before normal strikes, only cancelled by S:CE or dodge (official rulebook 6.4.5). Maybe, as long as the opposing vampire doesn't use evasive strikes, he/she won't ever get a chance to choose offensive strikes, and consequently no Rotshreck? > Rotshreck is a very versatile card especially when combined with > Tzimisce who can intercept and have access to long range ( BotD) and > short range (CM, BA) agg damage. I'm aware of that, very aware, and exactly what I'm trying to avoid! -Kenneth

Kenneth wrote: > > Please excuse if this has been asked before, but I've searched the > newgroup and couldn't find a clear answer. > > If a reacting vampire is in the process of being burned or sent to > torpor with a first strike, is he still able to choose an agg damage > strike and save his skin with Rotshreck? 1) Both vampies choose their strikes during the choose strike phase, before either strike (even a First Strike or a Strike: Combat Ends) resolves. 2) Rotscrehck is played when the strike is chosen (again, before either strike resolves). -- LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> Rotshreck is a very versatile card especially when combined with > Tzimisce who can intercept and have access to long range ( BotD) and > short range (CM, BA) agg damage. In the case of Rotshreck all the Tzimisce need is BotD. They won't take the damage at close range due to the Rotshreck ending combat. Just realized that you still want to pack some agg hand damage for when you get grappled. 6 BotD and 6 CM and 8 Rotshreck should put the fear of God into their Preditor and Prey. Pack some Eagles Sight to block D actions not directed against you and the manditory intercept and wakes. There is lots of other sneeky tricks they can do too, like Milicent and Jack. A good Tzimisce deck is really tough to handle.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:32:03 -0500, LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Kenneth wrote: >> >> Please excuse if this has been asked before, but I've searched the >> newgroup and couldn't find a clear answer. >> >> If a reacting vampire is in the process of being burned or sent to >> torpor with a first strike, is he still able to choose an agg damage >> strike and save his skin with Rotshreck? > >1) Both vampies choose their strikes during the choose strike phase, >before either strike (even a First Strike or a Strike: Combat Ends) >resolves. > >2) Rotscrehck is played when the strike is chosen (again, before either >strike resolves). > Yet another reason why FS is largely a waste of time. FS/agg should send the opposing minion to torpor before his agg/rot combo. T

>Yet another reason why FS is largely a waste of time. FS/agg should >send the opposing minion to torpor before his agg/rot combo. Would you care to provide some reasoning and logic to why this way is best? Or are you going to go on yet another of your "they just completely messed up the way I play" and "my way is better" ramblings? Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > >Yet another reason why FS is largely a waste of time. FS/agg should > >send the opposing minion to torpor before his agg/rot combo. > > Would you care to provide some reasoning and logic to why this way is best? I don't know how logical it is, but I'll take a go on elobarating on why I agree with Talonz51. First of all I find it highly unreasonable that FS doesn't beat S:CE and dodge. I know this has been discussed before so I won't repeat that discussion. I accept the fact that these evasive strikes beat FS, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Playing lots of Assamite decks, this could have been the best strategy they have in getting around the constant problem of minions sneaking out of combat, most other combat clans have counter measures, but these highly skilled assassins are missing their contracted marks by simple dodges. I know we have Psyche! and now Shadow Feint. Psyche! ususally comes after a fizzled strike, a strike usually costing blood (not that great), and aren't the requirements and cost a bit high for SF when you compare to a Scorpion Sting. If nothing else give these killers a decent anti-dodge card. As for Rotshreck, correct me if I'm wrong, once played there is no way of avoiding it's effect. Sudden Reversals from an ally if your lucky, or possibly a Direct Intervention to stop that agg strike card, also from a friendly helper, but what about vamps like Basilia and Thetmes. These guys can do pretty much what they please when blocking and playing Rotshreck. Again I might be way off here, but I thought one of the the main ideas in VTES was that no card should be unstoppable, and I think rot is pretty close to that! I see no reason why a FS that burns or sends to torpor or even a S:CE shouldn't stop this fear of blood. The way I see it both of these strikes can easily be interpreted as resolving before the intercepting minion even attempts his strike. The least one should require from an intercepting vampire is that he succeeds in the attempt to strike agg before playing Rotshreck, a strike which of course can be dodged or prevented in other ways. This is ok, the agg damage has been attempted, unsuccesful in inflicting damage, but Rotshreck could be played, no problem. They way it is now though is that say Basilia gets hit with a FS Taste of Death she can respond with a hand strike at long range (a little fuzzy with the long range attempt, I know, but it doesn't kill my FS argument), saving her ass and still send whoever into torpor. Where's the logic in that? The way I see it she was in torpor possibly burnt before she knew what hit her, isn't that the whole point with first strikes? -Kenneth

"Kenneth" <kenneth.meland@ifm.uib.no> wrote in message news:3CA199D4.13B0DAE5@ifm.uib.no... > First of all I find it highly unreasonable that FS doesn't beat S:CE and > dodge. I know this has been discussed before so I won't repeat that Of course, you *are* bringing it up again. > discussion. I accept the fact that these evasive strikes beat FS, but > that doesn't mean I have to like it. Playing lots of Assamite decks, > this could have been the best strategy they have in getting around the > constant problem of minions sneaking out of combat, most other combat Once again, what else don't the Assamites beat? They don't need to beat S:CE, because they can beat virtually everything else. The only time they're really screwed is against Drawing out the Beast/Scorpion Sting/Claws. Aside from that, they can pretty much out do any other standard combat deck, and deal with most prevention. > clans have counter measures, but these highly skilled assassins are > missing their contracted marks by simple dodges. I know we have Psyche! If you're getting screwed by dodges, why are you not using additional strikes? Assamite: "I strike hands at long range." non-Assamite: "Umm...I dodge anyway." Assamite: "Fine. I Blur, and strike with Blood Sweat twice." non-Assamite: "Crap." > and now Shadow Feint. Psyche! ususally comes after a fizzled strike, a > strike usually costing blood (not that great), and aren't the So use the ones that don't cost blood. Or make sure to get a Path of Blood in play. Or play with Taste of Vitae, so that sooner or later, you'll be getting all that blood back. > requirements and cost a bit high for SF when you compare to a Scorpion > Sting. If nothing else give these killers a decent anti-dodge card. Whatever for? They already have one. Blur. > As for Rotshreck, correct me if I'm wrong, once played there is no way > of avoiding it's effect. Sudden Reversals from an ally if your lucky, or Pretty much correct. > possibly a Direct Intervention to stop that agg strike card, also from a > friendly helper, but what about vamps like Basilia and Thetmes. These > guys can do pretty much what they please when blocking and playing If you can successfully block with Basilia or Thetmes, and then play Rotschreck, more power to you. Personally, I'd be more inclined to take, oh, an action with them than have them sit around and block. > Rotshreck. Again I might be way off here, but I thought one of the the > main ideas in VTES was that no card should be unstoppable, and I think > rot is pretty close to that! I see no reason why a FS that burns or It's hard to counter if: a) you are being blocked b) your opponent uses an aggravated strike that is effective at the current range So either don't get blocked, or maneuver to long range so that only Breath of the Dragon/Flamethrower is going to get you. And again, yeah, it sends your vampire to torpor, but unless that was your absolute last acting minion, there's no reason you can't just simply rescue the poor sucker. What's the big deal? So you're out a couple of actions. Not to mention, you can only be hit with one per turn. If the Tzimisce could play 3 per turn, yes, that would be bad. As is, though, only one of your minions is "certainly" going to torpor. Again, big deal. > sends to torpor or even a S:CE shouldn't stop this fear of blood. The > way I see it both of these strikes can easily be interpreted as > resolving before the intercepting minion even attempts his strike. The The way I see it, both of the strikes are chosen at the same time, which is when Rotschreck kicks in. Funnily enough, that's pretty much the official interpretation too. I'm not sure why you're arguing for S:CE to be more powerful in one paragraph, and less powerful in another... [snip] > Rotshreck could be played, no problem. They way it is now though is that > say Basilia gets hit with a FS Taste of Death she can respond with a > hand strike at long range (a little fuzzy with the long range attempt, I > know, but it doesn't kill my FS argument), saving her ass and still send > whoever into torpor. Where's the logic in that? The way I see it she was There isn't any logic in that. And you can't do that. The strike must be effective at the current range for Rotschreck to be usable. First Strike resolves after all strikes are chosen, but before all other non-dodge, non-S:CE strikes. Except other strikes made with First Strike. Rotschreck "interrupts" right after strikes are chosen, before any strike resolution (including S:CE). I fail to see what is so hard to understand about this. In general, masters (and especially OoT masters) resolve when played. Sudden Reversal and Direct Intervention resolve immediately, why not Rotschreck? Xian

Kenneth <kenneth.meland@ifm.uib.no> wrote: > First of all I find it highly unreasonable that FS doesn't beat S:CE and > dodge. I know this has been discussed before so I won't repeat that > discussion. I will. The only reason that people think First Strike should resolve before S:CE and dodge is because of its name. The reason that First Strike resolves before S:CE and dodge is game balance. In VTES, there is a recurring theme that defense is cheaper in resources and more effective than offense. Were it otherwise, a VTES game would be a sprint rather than a marathon. As it is, First Strike is not designed to beat defenses. It's designed to beat other offenses. In a combat heavy meta-game, First Stike is actually very useful. Regards, Noal McDonald VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit

Split replies due to entirely different subject matter. Kenneth wrote: > They way it is now though is that > say Basilia gets hit with a FS Taste of Death she can respond with a > hand strike at long range (a little fuzzy with the long range attempt, I > know, but it doesn't kill my FS argument), saving her ass and still send > whoever into torpor. Before ranting about something, you would do well to understand it. An aggravated hand strike cannot attempt to inflict damage at long range, therefore Rotschreck cannot be used. Also note that Rotschreck can only be played once per table turn, which is a significant limiting factor. Regards, Noal McDonald VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit

Hey, R�tschrek can't be used if the agg. damage would not be take effect - such as aggravated hand damage at long range. This is official errata (as far as I know). On the other hand, since R�tschrek is a "pychological" effect, I see no problem in it taking effect first, although it still is a very powerful card. However, the same could be claimed of Cardinal Sin: Failure of Mission, or Kiss of Ra, or other Send-to-torpor effects. My opinion only Rod

dharzhak@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) wrote: > The reason that First Strike resolves before S:CE and dodge is game > balance. er...that should be "S:CE and dodge resolves before First Strike". I need to stop making posts before noon. :-P Regards, Noal