another thought on 'fixing' the Assamites

The other day, I was talking about the benefits and weak points of certain clans and disciplines to one of my friends, and trying to explain why some are considered too strong or too weak. (Most of that info I got from this newsgroup, not personal experience though.) I got to thinking about the Assamites and why they're considered too weak. As far as I understand, they have 2 major drawbacks: -they are blood cursed - no diablerie -quitus is too expensive The first problem, the blood curse, can be 'cured' by playing Tajdid. Many people have been asking about a Path card for making Qui less expensive to fix the second problem. Then I got to thinking, what if we'd 'fix' Qui by modifying the blood curse, and have players choose between the two problems? Here's the ideas I came up with: 1. addition to the blood curse rule: blood cursed vampires pay one less for qui cards (but never less then zero) Reasoning behind the idea: -Game balance wise: in fear of overpowering the Assamites instead of fixing them, this would make people have a choice: if you play Tajdid so you can diablerize, you need to pay 'extra' for Qui. You can't have both, but you can choose what strategy to go for. -Back story wise: because they were limited in their options by the blood curse, the Assamite clan (internally, as a 'family') spent lots of their time perfecting their main strength, their qui abilities. The Assamite Antitribu quit the 'main clan' and didn't receive this 'training', so: no curse, but no reduced cost either. The Laibon Assamites (in VTES that is, IIRC these are actually Shango) don't really use quietus anyway, that's just what it got 'changed' to in VTES, so no curse but no bonus either. -Game balance wise 2: I think the above is good balance wise also, because the Sabbat and Laibons have access to sect-bound cards, so again there's a trade-off: pay less for qui or play 'special' cards, your pick. I think such an addition to an existing rule (even if not this particular one) would be better than a Path (or other) card, since you don't force players to always use (and having to own) that card. Plus, you 'fix' a clan's options from the word go, instead of forcing the player to wait until he gets the Path into play. It also still gives the Assamites, as a clan, more playability over 'wannabees' like Ian Forrestal or non-Assamites with Quietus discipline cards on them, just like a Path would. 2. Like idea 1, but replace "qui cards" with "combat cards" (probably too strong). This is not just 'fixing' qui, but even more turning the Assamites into the lean, mean fighting machines they're supposed to be. 3. Like idea 1, but replace "pay one less" with "may burn one blood to pay for 2 cost" (essentially meaning, "pay half, rounding up"). This way, you're really only 'fixing' the expensive cards, with the 'fix' becoming stronger as card cost increases. Again, a trade-off: not overpowering the cheap cards, but giving the expensive ones a big boost. Perhaps all of this is no good, I'm too inexperienced myself to tell. Also, apologies if this has been discussed (and dismissed) before. Teeka

The path of blood, which lets assamite pay their quietus cards 1 less blood already exists.

> The other day, I was talking about the benefits and weak points of > certain clans and disciplines to one of my friends, and trying to > explain why some are considered too strong or too weak. > (Most of that info I got from this newsgroup, not personal experience > though.) > I got to thinking about the Assamites and why they're considered too > weak. As far as I understand, they have 2 major drawbacks: > -they are blood cursed - no diablerie This is neither a particularly big problem nor is it here to stay, as all the new Assamites (G3 and on I believe) are not blood-cursed. > -quitus is too expensive You could conceive that as a problem, but it really isn't so bad. Besides, Celerity and Obfuscate are for the most part free and there's, you know, Taste of Vitae. I mean, I'd instantly agree Quitus sucks as a discipline but it's not the cost that makes it suck. They're just too damned conditional. There's just too many quitus cards thay say "only usable if....". > The first problem, the blood curse, can be 'cured' by playing Tajdid. Yes.... sure.... > Many people have been asking about a Path card for making Qui less > expensive to fix the second problem. Path of Blood? It's been in print for a while... Like, say, since Ancient Hearts. <snip silly and complicated idea> The problem is neither with quitus nor the Blood Curse. It's with the fact that Assamites have NO ousting discipline, NO defensive discipline and NO bloating mechanics. All they do is send vampires to torpor and that doesn't win you games. And they're not even that good at sending vampires to torpor to add insult to injury. Meanwhile while they're going upstream to prevent their pool from going to zero their prey just thanks them and ousts his prey, making the problem six pool bigger. Added to that of course are the rather underwhelming contracts, clandestine contract costing pool (who made that up anyway?) and most of their clan unique cards requiring an entirely different deck strategy. WW has been trying to make pure combat a more viable ousting strategy, but so far it still relies on a bleed discipline to back it up (ie Brujah have presence), playing weenies or a single-star deck surrounded with dominate nitwits. The only consistently succesfull deck featuring an Assamite is the Fatima Assault rifle deck and that's only because she has Fortitude. Oh, the Tariq decks are pretty nice as well but guess what... Fortitude and Auspex... Neither deck plays a single quitus card too :-)

On 17 aug, 14:15, "Izaak" <.> wrote: > > Many people have been asking about a Path card for making Qui less > > expensive to fix the second problem. > > Path of Blood? It's been in print for a while... Like, say, since Ancient > Hearts. > Yeah, should've re-phrased that. Meant "a card to make qui better". Stupid me. 8-( Makes the first idea obsolete as well... > <snip silly and complicated idea> > Ok. Just thinking aloud.. > The problem is neither with quitus nor the Blood Curse. It's with the fact > that Assamites have NO ousting discipline, NO defensive discipline and NO > bloating mechanics. > Ah. I guess I totally misunderstood the complaints/problems about the clan. Never mind then. > Neither deck plays a single quitus card too :-) Still a shame then... How's about "you gain 3 pool every time a blood cursed vampire sends another vampire to torpor"? .... .... ...you know what, never mind. I'm gonna re-read all the threads about the clan and try to figure out why the hell I thought what I thought was the problem... -Teeka probably didn't get enough sleep lately...

In article <1187348497....@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, Teeka <teeka_...@hotmail.com> wrote: > -they are blood cursed - no diablerie Well, not really that big of a deal--they have plenty of vampires who aren't blood cursed, you can Tajdid them, and you can get around diablerie if you really want by burning folks. > -quitus is too expensive Well, that is certainly an issue, but not really the issue that is the problem. It is that quietus is too expensive while being too hard to make effective due to the Assamites not really having a good way to circumvent S:CE. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html

On Aug 17, 8:15 am, "Izaak" <.> wrote: > The problem is neither with quitus nor the Blood Curse. It's with the fact > that Assamites have NO ousting discipline, Mostly true. > NO defensive discipline Also mostly true, but they do have a "defensive sect" if you want it (Black Hand). > and NO > bloating mechanics. Here's where I think you are off a bit. Provisions of Silsila can support decent bloat if you actually own enough of them. Khabar: Glory is probably their best card in recent sets, and I've had pretty good success running 4 - 6 in most Assamite decks. Bleeders, rushers, blockers... doesn't matter. I think just about every assamite deck needs 4 - 6 K:G, and 4 Web o' Nerds is almost as manditory. > Added to that of course are the > rather underwhelming contracts, clandestine contract costing pool (who made > that up anyway?) It was designed in the Era of Suckage, when Scott was getting his feet wet designing new cards and leaned pretty hard towards the "don't break the game" end of the spectrum. > WW has been trying to make pure combat a more viable ousting strategy, but > so far it still relies on a bleed discipline to back it up I think there's also always been a healthy fear that if you make combat too good the whole game will collapse, so it keeps inching up by painful degrees. Weenie combat decks also keep it down, I think, because what is good for midcaps is great for nerds. >The only consistently succesfull deck featuring an Assamite is the > Fatima Assault rifle deck and that's only because she has Fortitude. Oh, the > Tariq decks are pretty nice as well but guess what... Fortitude and > Auspex... > > Neither deck plays a single quitus card too :-) Selective Silence is worth playing in Fatima. Draught of the Soul is a staple card for Tariq. -- David Cherryholmes

On Aug 17, 4:01 am, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote: > The other day, I was talking about the benefits and weak points of > certain clans and disciplines to one of my friends, and trying to > explain why some are considered too strong or too weak. > (Most of that info I got from this newsgroup, not personal experience > though.) > I got to thinking about the Assamites and why they're considered too > weak. As far as I understand, they have 2 major drawbacks: > -they are blood cursed - no diablerie > -quietus is too expensive The other big drawback is that Quietus doesn't really do much. It's a pretty good combat discipline, but it rarely helps you win the game directly. Black Sunrise can help keep you alive, but that's not saying much. Combined with Celerity (also doesn't help you win) and Obfuscate (helps if you can push bleeds/votes through), there's not a lot to look forward to within the clan. > The first problem, the blood curse, can be 'cured' by playing Tajdid. But Tajdid can be SR'd or Washed and you can't afford a ton of MPA slots to make it consistently worthwhile. Coupled with a limited number of titles, this is a significant issue and will always be, but it is minor compared to the other points. > 2. Like idea 1, but replace "qui cards" with "combat cards" (probably > too strong). This is not just 'fixing' qui, but even more turning the > Assamites into the lean, mean fighting machines they're supposed to > be. > > 3. Like idea 1, but replace "pay one less" with "may burn one blood to > pay for 2 cost" (essentially meaning, "pay half, rounding up"). This > way, you're really only 'fixing' the expensive cards, with the 'fix' > becoming stronger as card cost increases. Again, a trade-off: not > overpowering the cheap cards, but giving the expensive ones a big > boost. > > Perhaps all of this is no good, I'm too inexperienced myself to tell. > Also, apologies if this has been discussed (and dismissed) before. > > Teeka While The Path of Blood (card) exists, it's still just not that good. One rarely sees *any* Paths played, because of all the drawbacks associated with them. Heck, get rid of Uniqueness of Paths and you'd start seeing them played more often, though some benefit more than others. I like your idea of tying the Blood Curse to a Quietus cost reduction, but I think that would be just a tad too powerful, and not because of the state of cards now. It's because Quietus cards will probably keep improving into the future. I am looking forward to the new set and have high hopes for it. Once Assamite clannies can dissect the new cards, we'll know the true state of the clan. I was just looking back at some Quietus cards and noticed a couple major restrictions which could be lifted on two cards to make them playable. Dagon's Call qui:Strike: make a hand strike (at strength damage) and the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round this combat. [A minion may only take 1 damage from Dagon's Calls during the press step each round.] (This change allows for playing multiples of them at QUI to get the +1 damage per strike so you can use many in a deck.) Scorpion's Sting qui: Strike: make a hand or melee weapon strike and put this card on the opposing minion. The minion with this card gets -1 strength (this does not affect the current strike resolution step). Any vampire may burn this card as a +1 stealth action. [Delete: A minion may have only one Scorpion's Touch.] QUI: As above, and the minion with this card burns 1 blood or life during his or her untap phase. [A minion may only burn 1 blood or life due to Scorpion's Sting during their untap phase.] (Again, these changes allow multiple Scorpion's Stings to be played against a minion in a combat, but they don't quite stack. It's as if there were multiple Army of Rats in play vs a minion's blood/life.)] Oh well, these changes will never happen due to reluctance to create errata for low-power cards, even though Swarm is better really. Still, I'm keeping the faith. Just one more month and we'll know for sure. :) Jeff

bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1187359237.7...@a39g2000hsc.googlegroups.com: > On Aug 17, 8:15 am, "Izaak" <.> wrote: >> Added to that of course are the >> rather underwhelming contracts, clandestine contract costing pool >> (who made that up anyway?) > > It was designed in the Era of Suckage, when Scott was getting his feet > wet designing new cards and leaned pretty hard towards the "don't > break the game" end of the spectrum. > In his defense, Scott had "help" in designing the Assamite cards for FN... DaveZ

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 04:01:37 -0700, Teeka <teeka_...@hotmail.com> wrote: >I got to thinking about the Assamites and why they're considered too >weak. As far as I understand, they have 2 major drawbacks: >-they are blood cursed - no diablerie Blood curse isn't a big problem. It's not that other independent clans are masters of diablerie. >-quitus is too expensive Well.. yes and no. Quietus is only too expensive comparing to what it does. And it does very little. It's mostly combat discipline but it's not trumping combat. It's very slow and requiers many resources (cards). I will gladly pay one or two bloods for quietus card but it must be worth it. And almost no card is worth it now. What I want from quietus is definitely versatility which it lacks now. It gives you only one good not combat card (Black Sunrise) and one decent (Deed the Heart's Desire). It doesn't offer Assamites any worthy actions or mechanics to oust anybody (I mean any mechanics, not necessarily bleed). >3. Like idea 1, but replace "pay one less" with "may burn one blood to >pay for 2 cost" (essentially meaning, "pay half, rounding up"). This >way, you're really only 'fixing' the expensive cards, with the 'fix' >becoming stronger as card cost increases. Again, a trade-off: not >overpowering the cheap cards, but giving the expensive ones a big >boost. It affects only two cards, Vascular Explosion and Immaculate Vitae. Maybe someone would use Vascular Explosion for one blood, but I'm sure as hell nobody would use Immaculate Vitae. It's not worth it even for free.;) Y.

I'm an avid Assamite Player. Many in the Assamite(PoB era) and Michigan playgroup know me. I have various types of Assamite decks. Be it the Ur power bleed that no one can block. To my locally infamous Long Range Killer deck. I personally try to build a deck for as many concepts for the Assamites as possible. They have quite a few. Initially blood costs were an issue. However, I have since figured out various means to circumvent the blood cost. With the use of either Paths, Succulent Vitae, Tastes, arch-types, and other types of blood gaining ways. Each of course designed to work with a certain deck in mind. The only real problem I have ever had with Assamites is a viable way to defend S&B. While there may be several Assamites with either Aus or Dom, few have them and even fewer have Superior of either. Bolting on those disciplines isn't usually an option even with Deviki, unless you are already using the ones that have them and one or two support vamps. At one time I used Succubus Club as a means of extorting pool from Methuselahs. Or even offered up my services as an assassin. That seemed to help real well. As I've never had a problem torping or burning vampires with Assamites. Unfortunaely that option isn't available anymore. Any other deck arch-type I can typically deal with. There is enough anti vote tech available, that I'm not all that worried about votes. Not even PTO anymore. Assamites are capable combatants to dunk weenie after weenie. The only down side to dealing with weenies is being able to keep up. As far as Wall decks, except for my Ur power bleeder, please block me. And if I'm dealing with another combat deck, it's simply a matter of who's got the combat to trump the other or will we be both going down. The only thing that consistantly works with Assamites is if you cheese them out with something like the Ur power bleeder or a weenie\midcap Glory\Hack attack. But you run the risk of getting table hate with either, just like any other deck of its kind. I feel dirty every time I play my Ur deck. Eventhough I have fun playing it because it is Assamites, it's not very satisfying. Not much effort is needed to actually play the deck or any cheese deck for that matter. A friend of mine who frequently plays Baali cheese jokingly said that he got up from the table and when he returned had ousted 2 Methuselahs with one of his Baali decks. And the only reason those decks are more consistant than your typical Assamite deck, is because they do direct pool damage via bleeds. While the Assamites do have several bleed cards only Glory is all that viable due to its built in untap. Truth of Blood requires you to build a deck suited to it with appropriate vampires. Not impossible as I have 2 rather different decks that use it. Then there is Songs of the Distant Vitae. It's great that it's a bleed action at stealth, however the bonus to the bleed requires that you cause your prey to have at least one vamp Hunt. Now, while that isn't exactly difficult for Assamites to cause, with the unpreventable damage they have available. It requires too much work. Overall, since the Assamites are supposed to be the combat monsters of the game. I would like to see them acquire something that helps them in that effect. Fame, Tension, Dragonbound, and even Path of Lilith, just isn't enough. Sure there is the relatively new perpetual care vote card. But that adds an aspect to your deck. Not only do you need to torp your prey's vamps but you need to have the votes to get it to pass. I'd kill for a Succubus Club type card, so I can go back to selling my services or extorting protection pool. I'd also sell family members for a Quietus bounce card. Though, I don't expect to ever see either.

Reclaim that blood, puppies. Assamite specific master, not only removing the bloodcurse, but also giving Assamites a permanent "get out of bloodhunt" card. Yeah, bitches. They'd be all about gorging on your entrails after that. It still wouldn't "fix" the sucking of Quietus. But it'd sure as hell make games people more wary of them. Nothing like sitting next to a rabid combatwombat, bent on making you squeal.

On Aug 17, 10:56 am, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: > In his defense, Scott had "help" in designing the Assamite cards for FN... Sure, although from talking to Todd I think there was a general "tone it down" process. But that's just from a few snatches of conversation a while ago, so if I'm wrong about that it's my fault, not Todd's. And anyway, that wasn't intended as a slam against LSJ. I appreciate the fact that he came at expanding this game cautiously. -- David Cherryholmes

On Aug 17, 1:18 pm, Jyhad <jy...@storageannex.com> wrote: > The only real problem I have ever had with Assamites is a viable way > to defend S&B. I think rather than looking for bounce, continuing to focus on bloat might be a good way to shore them up in this area. And if they were sort of bloat-oriented, it might make fielding more than 2 - 3 vampires feasible. Many people have offered the opinion that midcap rush "just isn't viable", which is close to saying most Assamite decks aren't viable. Something big and bloaty (and preferably one that has the Minion Tap effect folded in, as Masters are very tight for a rush deck) might do the trick, and that would take away some of the pressure to bolt bounce onto everything that moves. P.S. I used to feel that it was OK that Assamites didn't have access to pre-emptive anti-S:CE tech. I no longer feel that is the case. "It is *just* combat" is an excellent buffer against going too far. And Psyche! has features of its own that will continue to make it attractive, competing for that space. -- David Cherryholmes

[ quoted text not captured ] I've tried doing the bloat thing with Assamites. Using Khabar Loyalty, entrenching and restore. The problem with that deck, is it had no forward momentum. Even with the contracts and rushes. As all I could do was bloat most of the time to survive the bleeders that were 'round. And all that did was delay things. Although, if I had no bleeder to worry 'bout I was able to bloat really well and managed to get out quite a few minions. But, I was just bleeding for one and it simply became a numbers game for me. To have more than my prey and pred. Overall, I found it rather ineffective. As for mid-cap rush. That's like saying weenie potence decks aren't viable. I've got a fairly capable mid-cap rush deck. Although, it's not just mid-caps in the deck. And it still suffers from the same issues of any rush deck. Specifically the bleeders at stealth. Now, there is an alternative to bounce. While I'd prefer bounce, I don't really expect quietus to actually get one. Even though they have a seduction like card. What quietus could get is a bleed fails reaction. However, unlike the dom level of the Mole, it wouldn't be restricted by being used only on younger minions. The other option to bounce\bleed fails would be to have a card that allows you to extort protection pool, like you could when Succubus Club was legal. With regards to a pre-emptive SCE card. It would be nice to have. As that would give the Assamites another look in combat. Since most that play SCE aren't really worried about Assamites, even though we have access to psyche and hidden lurker. Most don't usually block Assamites, so that really just leaves psyche. Which has an upside in the fact that it starts a new combat, allowing you to set range each and every round, theoretically. However, the oppenent can still SCE so many don't fear assamite combat like they should. Especially considering that most that play SCE stack a relatively large amount of them. It's kinda like bounce from what I've seen recently. Players have been stacking round 8-12 bounce and from 12-15 SCE. Only Jalal and Akram can deal with that much SCE. And since Akram isn't an Assamite, he can't use contracts much less Khabar Loyalty to Jalal. While they are a formidable tag team. It's difficult to work the pair together due to pool management.

Jyhad wrote: > Now, there is an alternative to bounce. While I'd prefer bounce, I > don't really expect quietus to actually get one. Even though they have > a seduction like card. What quietus could get is a bleed fails > reaction. However, unlike the dom level of the Mole, it wouldn't be > restricted by being used only on younger minions. The other option to > bounce\bleed fails would be to have a card that allows you to extort > protection pool, like you could when Succubus Club was legal. Along those lines, why not something like the Ruins of Charizel, but for Assamites, and based on torping minions, not infernal cost? Something like: Fear of the Repercussions Unique Master. Requires: Assamite During combat, when an Assamite you control puts a vampire with a contract in torpor, put 1 counter on this card. During combat, when an Asaamite you control burns a minion with a contract, put counters equal to the capacity of the vampire or cost of that ally on this card. When you are being bled, you may burn X counters off this card to reduce the bleed by X. -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

Why not just modify their contract. Contract Master: contract. Put this card on any ready minion and choose an Assamite in play. That Assamite may enter combat with that minion as a +1 stealth (D) action unless they are controlled by the same Methuselah. The Methusela of the minion with this card burns 2 pool if this minion is burnt. Add that line to all their contracts. Or modify it to give the owner of the Assamite 2 pool instead? --> J grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com

[ quoted text not captured ] There is no need to add the line to the contract. Simply make it a reaction\action mod similiar to Provisions. For example: Blood Tithing Action Mod\Reaction This card can be played as an action modifier or a reaction card. Usable by a tapped vampire. Only usable after a combat involving this Assamite and an opposing minion with a contract naming this Assamite. Only usable if the opposing minion is not ready and this Assamite is ready. The Methuselah of the minion that is no longer ready gives two pool to the opposing Methuselah. This is a very loose basis from the RPG. Where Assamites used to Tithe a portion of thier kills to their Elders. Which started because the childer of a particular Assamite took his sarcasm at face value. For those interested in knowing it is in the revised clanbook.

> There is no need to add the line to the contract. Simply make it a > reaction\action mod similiar to Provisions. Making it necessary to add yet another card to an already clunky and card intensive archetype. No, i think most people would just like to have a contract that didn't suck.

2 eurocents *kling* What I'd like to see happen to Assamites is to get personal paths like Trujahs have, Quietus is really expensive discipline to use and some of the clan members are quite crappy defending the Path of Blood. Still wouldn't be broken, if you want to have many Assamites with personal paths, they'd take _a lot_ deckspace. Assamites don't need that much help anymore, they are good in what they do* (kill other vamps) -to compare 'smites with ...for example Giovanni? 'smites have way more options in deckbuilding (thinking of out-of-clan discs etc. here). *vote with clans that like to vote and bleed with clans that bleed well thinblood/Jarkko

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't see a problem with Contracts as they stand now. Although, I think the Clandestine Contract is a bit expensive. The minimum cap to use the card I think is more than enough. They can be used on any type of minion ally and vampire alike. And the only way you are likely going to see the master card fail is if it is Suddened or Washed. Where as if the action is blocked, you still get what you initially wanted by taking the action. The only thing to stop it would be a DI or other action fails reaction from the target Methuselah.

Izaak wrote: > The problem is neither with quitus nor the Blood Curse. It's with the fact > that Assamites have NO ousting discipline, NO defensive discipline and NO > bloating mechanics. I agree on the first two (no ousting discipline, no defensive discipline), but I disagree on the third. Alamut + Con Boon is ok. Amaravati breed-boon is awesome. However, these approaches are not satisfactory to an Assamite fan, as they have nothing to do with combat (and also don't use Cel or Qui). As far as I can tell, Provision of the Silsila + Minion tap is also unsatisfactory. There are two things that I think need to happen with the Assamites: Quietus needs to be made useful and the Assamites need a plan. As I've been snarkily saying for the past few years now, you could could give every vampire in the game a level of Quietus for free and the game wouldn't change. You could reduce the cost of every Quietus card by one and it still wouldn't matter. Quietus simply does not do anything. It does not make your prey lose pool. It does not protect your pool. It does not help get your actions to suceed. It is of minimal (at best) use in combat. Right now, the Assamites' only path to victory is a star player deck, mainly Tariq or Amaravati. I would prefer to see a blueprint for the _clan's_ path to victory, rather than that of individual vampires. While I don't claim to know the full canon of the Assamites, one theme I keep reading about is being contract killers. That seems to be something that could be built around for the card game: get hired to take someone out and get paid when you suceed. There are elements of it already, but it's largely in name only, or the pieces are too separate to be made efficient enough for use. Rather than have separate contract (Contract, Clandestine Contract) and payment (Provision, Draught) cards, why not include the payment with the contract? For example, you could have a contract that gives you 2 pool if the chosen Assamite torporizes or burns the target minion. You could have a permanent master card that allows other players to pay blood or pool to give one of your Assamites a contract- type ability, and you get paid that blood or pool if successful. While blood is the "canonical" payment for the Assamites, other forms of payment could be used, as well (equipment, pool loss on your prey, political benefits, etc.).. In order to get this plan to succeed, new Quietus cards could be made. We know they could use their own version of Immortal Grapple, and we know that it wouldn't hurt the game for them to have it. Quietus could also be given strike cards that are worth a damn., and we know that it wouldn't hurt the game if the Assamites had them. You could also structure these cards and this plan such that - gasp - it'd be good for mid-caps and higher, and less effective (or not effective) for the small ones to do it. Bring out Assamite. Put contract on minion. Hit the minion. Get paid. Payment in pool can help you not get ousted or help you bring out more guys who can bleed or hit other minions. Payment in prey's pool loss helps you oust your prey. Payment in political favors helps you gain pool or make your prey lose pool. You don't need bounce. You don't need bleed reduction. You don't need intercept. You do it in the way that Assamites do things. Hell, it'd be nice to see a new archetype. Fight 'n bloat, anyone? - Ben Peal

[ quoted text not captured ] True, true ..... most other clans have been from the begining or have become very good adaptations of thier rpg rolles. the assamites lack the fact that OTHER people hire them. they lack the fact that they are (in a way) a fanatical religious sect (thier belifes in harquim). they lack beeing the greaterst killers in the WoD. most people will be more afraid of ravnos combat or even malks with flamethrowers. the assamites need a "fix". But they need it done right. no need to just look throug other disiplins for cards that would make assamites good. cause if we just give them govern deflection and conditioning for qui your still playing malk94 just with assams ... where would be the point in that (i know no one proposed exactly that its just an example). let the proud assamites who were the judges of all kindred have thier identety given back to them. we need cards that allow you to finaly play an assamite deck that actually feels assamite ! greatings from germany - seba

benp...@gmail.com wrote: > As far as I can tell, > Provision of the Silsila + Minion tap is also unsatisfactory. I've found one deck, Thetmes plus dominate nerds, that really seems to work it well. Cloak, Mask, Conditioning, Grave Rob. Masters are ridiculously focused on Taps and Contracts; weenie dominate gives you early deflection, which gives you time to bring up a 10 cap the hard way. The taps will play off the graverob or the provisions, so if one angle isn't working the other one might. > There are two things that I think need to happen with the Assamites: > Quietus needs to be made useful and the Assamites need a plan. As > I've been snarkily saying for the past few years now, you could could > give every vampire in the game a level of Quietus for free and the > game wouldn't change. You could reduce the cost of every Quietus card > by one and it still wouldn't matter. Quietus simply does not do > anything. It does not make your prey lose pool. It does not protect > your pool. It does not help get your actions to suceed. It is of > minimal (at best) use in combat. Block fails/no reaction is not negligible, but it's counter to what most of the Assamite decks will be trying to do. It's niche, but there are a few decks where it becomes an available power card. > Right now, the Assamites' only path to victory is a star player > deck, mainly Tariq or Amaravati. I would prefer to see a blueprint > for the _clan's_ path to victory, rather than that of individual > vampires. While I don't claim to know the full canon of the > Assamites, one theme I keep reading about is being contract killers. > That seems to be something that could be built around for the card > game: get hired to take someone out and get paid when you suceed. Pool gain. > There are elements of it already, but it's largely in name only, or > the pieces are too separate to be made efficient enough for use. > Rather than have separate contract (Contract, Clandestine Contract) > and payment (Provision, Draught) cards, why not include the payment > with the contract? For example, you could have a contract that gives > you 2 pool if the chosen Assamite torporizes or burns the target > minion. You could have a permanent master card that allows other > players to pay blood or pool to give one of your Assamites a contract- > type ability, and you get paid that blood or pool if successful. > While blood is the "canonical" payment for the Assamites, other forms > of payment could be used, as well (equipment, pool loss on your prey, > political benefits, etc.).. All excellent ideas, and I'd just add that pool is the great abstractor for wealth and resources. > In order to get this plan to succeed, new Quietus cards could be > made. We know they could use their own version of Immortal Grapple, > and we know that it wouldn't hurt the game for them to have it. > Quietus could also be given strike cards that are worth a damn., and > we know that it wouldn't hurt the game if the Assamites had them. You > could also structure these cards and this plan such that - gasp - it'd > be good for mid-caps and higher, and less effective (or not effective) > for the small ones to do it. > > Bring out Assamite. Put contract on minion. Hit the minion. Get > paid. Payment in pool can help you not get ousted or help you bring > out more guys who can bleed or hit other minions. Payment in prey's > pool loss helps you oust your prey. Payment in political favors helps > you gain pool or make your prey lose pool. You don't need bounce. > You don't need bleed reduction. You don't need intercept. You do it > in the way that Assamites do things. > > Hell, it'd be nice to see a new archetype. Fight 'n bloat, anyone? Bloat, with no other real defense backing it up, is going to be mostly ablative. I think that gives you a good buffer against game imbalance. It also opens up possibilities of mid-cap viability that I like thinking about. Would a "gain pool equal to the capacity of the contracted and dunked vampire" card be completely broken? Their best contract card costs a pool -- overcostedly -- as it is, so you can just lop one off the math right away. Leave the disciplines basically as they are now and that still leaves them with no defense, so staying at 10+ leaves them less inclined to reflexively back-oust, out of lunge range, but still within 2 turns of being ousted themselves. That's a situation that encourages forward motion at three points of the triangle, which isn't a bad nudge, either. -- David Cherryholmes

On Aug 19, 6:49 pm, bluedevil <david.cherryhol...@gmail.com> wrote: > I've found one deck, Thetmes plus dominate nerds, that really seems to > work it well. Agreed with all the points you make in your post. I just wanted to point out, though, that this deck type you're describing here is a star deck, and Ben was specifically saying it'd be better if the Assamites could be build competitive non-star decks. John Eno

In message <1187563798....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> writes: >Would a "gain pool equal to the capacity of the contracted and dunked >vampire" card be completely broken? Not necessarily, but... Your closest parallel is Anathema, which requires a Prince or Justicar. It's a political action, so you need to pass the vote. By being a vote, it requires a second strand to the deck - you need to be good enough at votes, and good enough at combat. Again, because it's a vote, you need a successful action, which can be blocked. If, somehow, your opponent can fend you off for a combat or three, the pool might go to someone else - say, your grand-prey (if it's your prey the Anathema is on). Of course, you don't actually have to dunk the vampire - zero is okay. I think most people regard bruise+vote as a difficult archetype, but Anathema itself isn't a bad card. So you'd want something comparable, which isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world. A Quietus action which does this at superior, perhaps? >Their best contract card costs a >pool -- overcostedly -- as it is, so you can just lop one off the math >right away. Leave the disciplines basically as they are now and that >still leaves them with no defense, so staying at 10+ leaves them less >inclined to reflexively back-oust, out of lunge range, but still >within 2 turns of being ousted themselves. That's a situation that >encourages forward motion at three points of the triangle, which isn't >a bad nudge, either. The obvious thing to do here is probably a dual-discipline card involving Quietus. (Dual-discipline cards for Obf/Cel would be accessible to the !Gangrel, which might or might not be appropriate.) Or alternatively a clan card. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] We already have a system that rewards Vampires who put minions in torpor or burns them: Trophies. Why dont we just say that a minion with a contract who is not ready after a combat with the Vampire who played teh contract receives a Trophy in play or one from the library. So we can combine two lesser mechanics "Assamites and Trophies" and make something better out of it. We dont have to introduce new cards and only a small fix in the rules would apply for the change. Just some thoughts for 2 cents. Erol

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1187563798....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> writes: >>Would a "gain pool equal to the capacity of the contracted and dunked >>vampire" card be completely broken? > > Not necessarily, but... > > Your closest parallel is Anathema, which requires a Prince or Justicar. ok, so now i want to go build a teggy anathema deck.... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Aug 20, 11:25 am, eRol <errikos.oenguen_nospam_@_nospam_web.de> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Aaaah, you mean a minion who dunked another minion via a contract gains a trophy, right? Cos if its the dunked minion, then that really makes very little sense to me. :) If it is the minion doing the dunking getting the trophy, then this is a great idea. Perhaps even include an assamite only trophy that gives you a free untap, with a "a vamp may only have one" clause included. here are a few things that I think would make Qui much better: 1) A reaction type contract, only usable against a D action, that immediately creates combat, before the action is succesful, similar in effect to Yawp court. This would give awesome Bleed Defense, and take the sting out of the fact that mid to large Assamites are the only really good ones. 2) A truly pre-emptive anti S:CE card, allowing them "Real" combat :) (I am obviously meaning IG style combat here) 0.02 cents

Blooded Sand wrote: [..snip..] >> We already have a system that rewards Vampires who put minions in torpor >> or burns them: Trophies. Why dont we just say that a minion with a >> contract who is not ready after a combat with the Vampire who played teh >> contract receives a Trophy in play or one from the library. So we can >> combine two lesser mechanics "Assamites and Trophies" and make something >> better out of it. We dont have to introduce new cards and only a small >> fix in the rules would apply for the change. >> >> Just some thoughts for 2 cents. >> >> Erol > > Aaaah, you mean a minion who dunked another minion via a contract > gains a trophy, right? Yeah I did mean that! Sometimes writing english doenst come as easy as talking. :) Erol [..snip..]

Provision\Tap isn't very reliable. Even when you don't use the Thetmes star deck that takes the most use out of it. I have a Fatima deck that uses it, while she is the star, I have other Assamites with Fort \Qui as well as the Samedi(sadly he can't use the Provisions). The reason I say it isn't reliable is the fact that you have to survive the combat. I play in a relatively high combat meta. And even though, I use a Fatima deck that uses fort as a means to prevent, I still have trouble getting the combo off. Either I have no contracts and all the provisions and taps I could want, or all the taps and provisions with no contracts. Despite having high amounts of each in the deck. I'm currently engaged in a JOL game where I'm playing that very deck. Unfortunately, I now have a weenie stealth bleeder behind me. And my draw has been even worse. I've had the tap, the contracts, no provision and no combat. Also, I'd like to point out, that I've made the very suggestions everyone is now talking about. Some earlier in this thread and some in other posts on this forum and others. As I mentioned with use of the Succubus Club as a means of extortion or being "hired" for contracts. A similiar card would go a good deal in bloating. I know it worked magic for me. During the Hazimel SL, when it was still legal I used it to great effect in an Assamite Rush Deck. My infamous Long Range Killah. At least locally and via the PoB. I managed to extort a nice sum of pool from various contracts as well as extort my prey for 8 pool. Which left him at 3 so I could bleed him out. I was torpin everyone, my preds blood brothers, my preys ravnos, some cross table tremere, and Ventrue. *Smirks* Of course the second round I was gang banged. But I didn't blame them, had the game not timed out I would have swept easily. The key was having demonstrated the ability and showing reliability as well in the endeavor. After that it was just a matter of intimidation. I did end up winning the SL as well. It came down to the Blood Brothers, played by a former Prince of Lansing and myself. In case you are wondering the BB deck was a hit for 1 prevent everything you do and disarm combat with a very nice bloat mechanic that annoyed the hell out of me. I put down so many BBs that night, I cycled my entire deck. Now, if you create a new contract that has a bonus, you'll make the former wallpaper. As it stands, we would be better off if they simply made cards similiar to Provisions and Succubus Club. With not only contract restrictions but Assamite restrictions as well. That way you don't get Hektor who can be a boss already, even more powerful. Take for example my prior post, of the suggested card, Blood Tithing, which is based off of the expense that it took to hire Assamites. They didn't come cheap. And a portion was designated to the clan as a whole. Not only is there that, there is also a path of Assamite Sorcery, or rather more specifically a level of a certain path that is called Strike the True Flesh. In the RPG it gives an auto hit. However, no bonuses. Something like that can easily be translated to the CCG. I know I've posted it in the PoB, sadly it is no longer available. It can be balanced out easily by not allowing Additional Strikes. There are many examples from the RPG that could be translated to the CCG to improve the Assamites. Not just in the ways we mention here. One of Haqim's Laws was already translated into a card as well several other things like the Khabars, which there are more of as well. In fact, there is even other artifacts in Assamite lore. Special Arrows, I forget the name atm. And in the RPG there are multiple Ancestors Talismans, 3 total. One owned by each of the Caste leaders. In theory you could make one of the Talismans an EQ that counters SCE in the same way as a Dog Pack. I wrote up cards for each of these things in the PoB. I think, I recall what I wrote for the Warrior Talisman. Thetme's Blessing(Warrior Talisman) Cost 1pool? Unquie EQ. Require Assamite An Assamite may only have one Talisman. This assamite may not have any other equipment. Opposing Minions can not end combat as a strike. I'd prefer it be free, but I didn't want anyone to go ape over the fact that it was free. But with the fact that it prevents the user from having other EQ, it restricts the Assamites into a more hands on approach. Encouraging the use of Blood Sweats and other quietus strikes. If you notice, it doesn't stop dodge either. However, that shouldn't be an issue for Assamites. I can give many more examples of this if you like. Assamites are a passion for me. I assume it is the Arab in me.

Really Tasty Vitae Combat Requires: Quietus Only usable if this vampire is named for a contract on the opposing minion. [qui] Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor. This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount of damage dealt to the opposing minion this round of combat. A vampire may play only one Really Tasty Vitae each round. [QUI] As above, but move up to 2 of those blood counters to your pool instead of this vampire. Slightly better than taste of vitae at basic (damage dealt instead of blood lost, so works even if you over-do the damage, or do agg) tempered by the contract restriction. Then at superior mirrors voter cap. genius! -- Salem

On Aug 20, 8:06 am, Salem <salem_christ....@hotmail.com> wrote: > Slightly better than taste of vitae at basic (damage dealt instead of > blood lost, so works even if you over-do the damage, or do agg) tempered > by the contract restriction. Then at superior mirrors voter cap. For the most part, anyone running VC also has access to bounce. What I think we're kicking around here is giving enough bloat that bounce isn't necessary, and reducing some of the backwards churn an Assamite rush deck almost always introduces to the table. -- David Cherryholmes

> 1) A reaction type contract, only usable against a D action, that > immediately creates combat, before the action is succesful, similar in > effect to Yawp court. This would give awesome Bleed Defense, and take > the sting out of the fact that mid to large Assamites are the only > really good ones. > > 2) A truly pre-emptive anti S:CE card, allowing them "Real" combat :) > (I am obviously meaning IG style combat here) 3) Some (at least 1) good close combat... Talons of Blood Combat, 1 blood (qui) Make a hand strike at strength +1 damage. This damage cannot be prevented. (QUI) As above with first strike. Talons of Death Combat, 1 blood (qui) This vampires hand strikes inflict aggravated damage for the rest of this round. (QUI) As above, and this Vampires hand strikes may not be dodged. Life Leach Combat (qui) Make a Hand Strike at Strength +1. This vampire gains 1 blood if this strike is not prevented. (QUI) As above, but at Strength +2. Blood of the Dragon Combat, 1 blood (qui) Prevent 1 damage. (QUI) As above, and if this vampire sustains at least 2 points of damage and the range is close, opposing minion suffers 1 point of aggravated damage. Tainted Blood Combat Play before strike declaration, only useable at close range. (qui) Opposing minions next combat card played costs an additional blood or life. (QUI) All combat cards played by opposing minion during this combat cost an additional blood or life. Burning Blood Mist Combat, 1 blood Play before range is chosen in the first round of combat. Only one Blood Mist may be played each combat. (qui) Opposing Minion and all his retainers suffer 1 point of damage during strike resolution if the range is close. Damage not preventable. (QUI) As above, but this vampire may burn 2X blood to increase the damage by X. or some such crap as that... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Aug 20, 2:09 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Your closest parallel is Anathema, which requires a Prince or Justicar. And which will likely have a whole lot of other power cards occurring alongside it, like bounce, 2nd trad, and Parity Shift. One thing that stands out wrt to Assamites is a real lack of *any* defenses. I think this warrants some really top-tier bloat (or you could just arrange to bolt bounce onto yet another discipline, but that doesn't feel very satisfying to me). -- David Cherryholmes

David Cherryholmes skrev: > Block fails/no reaction is not negligible, but it's counter to what > most of the Assamite decks will be trying to do. It's niche, but > there are a few decks where it becomes an available power card. The problem being that it requires a larger vampire, which at present is a problem for the Assamites. If something can be done to make larger vamps for Assamites more viable, then yeah, Deed the Heart's Desire becomes an attractive card. > Would a "gain pool equal to the capacity of the contracted and dunked > vampire" card be completely broken? Their best contract card costs a > pool -- overcostedly -- as it is, so you can just lop one off the math > right away. Leave the disciplines basically as they are now and that > still leaves them with no defense, so staying at 10+ leaves them less > inclined to reflexively back-oust, out of lunge range, but still > within 2 turns of being ousted themselves. That's a situation that > encourages forward motion at three points of the triangle, which isn't > a bad nudge, either. I don't think it would be broken for the Assamites, since they're lacking in both defense and offense. The pool gained becomes either ablative armor or a vampire who bleeds for one. You could easily dial it down during the playtest process (gain X-2 pool, etc) if the pool gained is too much. For most other clans I'd be concerned about it, but for the Assamites it seems fine. James Coupe brought up the analogy of Anathema, which is a card that is too card-intensive to be effective as you're combining one card-intensive strategy (vote) with another one (fight). A less card-intensive version of Anathema could be made and wouldn't unbalance the game, and I don't see why it couldn't be the card you describe. - Ben Peal

On Aug 17, 7:01 am, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I got to thinking about the Assamites and why they're considered too > weak. As far as I understand, they have 2 major drawbacks: > -they are blood cursed - no diablerie > -quitus is too expensive > > Teeka I have never understood why DEM and OBT have "Strike: Go to torpor" cards and QUI doesn't. And why the heck isn't there a qui/obf combo card that has uber stealth? You can't hear OR see me. Bite it.

[ quoted text not captured ] Bite big chunks in fact... I really like the anathema type contract, but that card would have to burn after target vamp gets dunked. Else rinse repeat can become hideously bloaty... Nah, strike that, it's gotta stay!!! And if some uber new contract does see the dark of night, please remember to make the old original a trifle? cos else its gonna get wallpapered...

Blooded Sand skrev: > I really like the anathema type contract, but that card would have > to burn after target vamp gets dunked. Else rinse repeat can become > hideously bloaty... David Cherryholmes' suggestion was a card like Provision of the Silsila, only giving you pool instead of blood based on the vampire's capacity. My suggestion was a contract giving you some amount of pool if the Assamite sent the target minion to torpor. And yeah, that contract should burn afterwards. :) Possible text: Priority Contract Assamite Action card Contract. Unique. Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4 +1 stealth action (D) Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah and put this card on that minion. This Assamite is chosen for this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth action. If the vampire with this card leaves the ready region after combat with this Assamite or after a successful (D) action by this Assamite, this card is burned and the controller of this Assamite gains X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of the vampire with this card. > And if some uber new contract does see the dark of night, please > remember to make the old original a trifle? cos else its gonna get > wallpapered... I prefer that cards be wallpapered instead of being given errata. Just make new cards that are better and move on. :) - Ben Peal

On Aug 17, 4:01 am, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote: > The other day, I was talking about the benefits and weak points of > certain clans and disciplines to one of my friends, and trying to > explain why some are considered too strong or too weak. > (Most of that info I got from this newsgroup, not personal experience > though.) > I got to thinking about the Assamites and why they're considered too > weak. As far as I understand, they have 2 major drawbacks: > -they are blood cursed - no diablerie > -quitus is too expensive I think the only real solution is to take the Ventrue and change their clan symbol to that of the Assamites. The Assamites will then no longer suck. -Robert

I skrev: > Possible text: > > Priority Contract > Assamite > Action card > Contract. Unique. > Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4 > +1 stealth action > (D) Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another > Methuselah and put this card on that minion. This Assamite is chosen > for this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire > with this card as a +1 stealth action. If the vampire with this card > leaves the ready region after combat with this Assamite or after a > successful (D) action by this Assamite, this card is burned and the > controller of this Assamite gains X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of > the vampire with this card. There probably needs to be some provision in place for preventing rescue + Priority Contract re-dunking in the same turn. Perhaps "Only one Priority Contract may be played per turn" or the pool award needs to be less and/more restrictive. Maybe an award of a fixed amount of pool (3 or 4?) and the target vampire must be of capacity above 3. Hmmm...it still leaves a problem with dealing with a target weenie deck...but you get the idea. I also forgot to replace an instance of "minion" with "vampire". - Ben

[ quoted text not captured ] also it doesn't seem to work if they become un-ready _in_ combat. Only if it happens after. ;) I guess we'd see a lot of Assamites playing Catatonic Fear... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Aug 20, 5:41 pm, Salem <salem_christ....@hotmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Catatonic Fear Type: Combat Requires: Presence Cost: 1 blood [pre] Strike: combat ends. [PRE] As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close. I assume you refer to the superior, so we'd really only see Tegyrius and Aziz playing it. Of course we all know Ben meant "If the opposing vampire is not ready after a combat with this Assamite,..."

[ quoted text not captured ] If I may self-reply, Silent Stalker Action 1 blood +1 stealth [obf][qui] Enter combat with a minion controlled by another methuselah. Minions without [aus] cannot attempt to block this action. [OBF][QUI] As above, and minions without [AUS] cannot attempt to block. If this action is successful, the opposing vampire may not strike in the first round of combat.

On Aug 19, 5:12 pm, benp...@gmail.com wrote: > Izaak wrote: > While I don't claim to know the full canon of the > Assamites, one theme I keep reading about is being contract killers. > That seems to be something that could be built around for the card > game: get hired to take someone out and get paid when you suceed. > There are elements of it already, but it's largely in name only, or > the pieces are too separate to be made efficient enough for use. > Rather than have separate contract (Contract, Clandestine Contract) > and payment (Provision, Draught) cards, why not include the payment > with the contract? For example, you could have a contract that gives > you 2 pool if the chosen Assamite torporizes or burns the target > minion. You could have a permanent master card that allows other > players to pay blood or pool to give one of your Assamites a contract- > type ability, and you get paid that blood or pool if successful. > While blood is the "canonical" payment for the Assamites, other forms > of payment could be used, as well (equipment, pool loss on your prey, > political benefits, etc.).. Flexible Contract Master Put this card on a ready minion and choose a ready Assamite <yada yada contract stuff>. Any methuselah may use a master phase action and give you 1 pool to move this card to any ready minion. Put them on your prey, use the rush. Then convince your grandpredator to pay you pool to move them to his prey's (your predator's) minions. Then watch your predator squirm and maybe (just maybe) pay you pool to move the contract somewhere else. On a later turn, assuming you don't have a better master to play, you can move it yourself. Could be changed to only be moveable if the target is unready or whatever. But rather than fight the tendency to backoust, why not get paid for it? witness1

In message <1187637485.7...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ben...@gmail.com writes: > Contract. Unique. > Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4 > +1 stealth action > (D) Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another >Methuselah and put this card on that minion. This Assamite is chosen >for this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire >with this card as a +1 stealth action. If the vampire with this card >leaves the ready region after combat with this Assamite or after a >successful (D) action by this Assamite, this card is burned and the >controller of this Assamite gains X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of >the vampire with this card. This seems a *bit* too quick for 9 pool to come from nowhere. Contract. Unique. Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4. (D) Put this card on a ready vampire you do not control, and enter combat with that vampire. Tap this card. This Assamite is chosen for this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If this card is untapped when the vampire with this card leaves the ready region during or immediately after a combat with this Assamite, and this Assamite is still ready, gain X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of the vampire with this card. It's still a contract, you can still use it for all the contract-y things you might want (or which might be invented in Lords of the Night), but you have to wait a turn to get 9 pool. If you draw it and need to kill someone *right now*, you still can, though. Or if you don't want to tempt fate with a PTO, Banishment, Secure Haven, or whatever. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Aug 21, 10:57 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <1187637485.794400.118...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > benp...@gmail.com writes: > > Contract. Unique. > > Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4 > > +1 stealth action > > (D) Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another > >Methuselah and put this card on that minion. This Assamite is chosen > >for this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire > >with this card as a +1 stealth action. If the vampire with this card > >leaves the ready region after combat with this Assamite or after a > >successful (D) action by this Assamite, this card is burned and the > >controller of this Assamite gains X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of > >the vampire with this card. > > This seems a *bit* too quick for 9 pool to come from nowhere. > > Contract. Unique. > Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4. > (D) Put this card on a ready vampire you do not control, and enter > combat with that vampire. Tap this card. This Assamite is chosen for > this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire with > this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If this card is untapped when the > vampire with this card leaves the ready region during or immediately > after a combat with this Assamite, and this Assamite is still ready, > gain X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of the vampire with this card. and add at the end [... and tap this card.] That way you can only get the reward only once per turn. -- -bur

On Aug 21, 4:57 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > This seems a *bit* too quick for 9 pool to come from nowhere. At most, if you dunk an IC, and we all know how easy that is. And I'd add that IC's can sure *do* 9 pool to you quickly enough. But sure, the first concern with something like this is not to provide too much pool. I just think that the "too much" line is probably safely a lot higher than people think. Playtesting would tell. -- David Cherryholmes

bluedevil schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] Absolutely right. Arika can burn Thetmes with a single card (PTO). So when Thetmes dunks Leandro he can at least recover the 10 pool he was paid for. Assuming Leandro doesn´t play Obedience. :) Johannes Walch

What an excellent summary of the "Assamite problem", Ben. I have read it three times in a row and must agree on every point. I would have highlighted a bit more how having you offense based on strike cards that cost blood doesn´t mix at all with Psyche as a counter to S:CE, but perhaps that is allready clear to the readers. Sadly, LotN will not make the Assamites much better. They still have no general plan :/ Johannes ben...@gmail.com schrieb: > Izaak wrote: >> The problem is neither with quitus nor the Blood Curse. It's with the fact >> that Assamites have NO ousting discipline, NO defensive discipline and NO >> bloating mechanics. > > I agree on the first two (no ousting discipline, no defensive > discipline), but I disagree on the third. Alamut + Con Boon is ok. > Amaravati breed-boon is awesome. However, these approaches are not > satisfactory to an Assamite fan, as they have nothing to do with > combat (and also don't use Cel or Qui). As far as I can tell, > Provision of the Silsila + Minion tap is also unsatisfactory. > > There are two things that I think need to happen with the Assamites: > Quietus needs to be made useful and the Assamites need a plan. As > I've been snarkily saying for the past few years now, you could could > give every vampire in the game a level of Quietus for free and the > game wouldn't change. You could reduce the cost of every Quietus card > by one and it still wouldn't matter. Quietus simply does not do > anything. It does not make your prey lose pool. It does not protect > your pool. It does not help get your actions to suceed. It is of > minimal (at best) use in combat. > > Right now, the Assamites' only path to victory is a star player > deck, mainly Tariq or Amaravati. I would prefer to see a blueprint > for the _clan's_ path to victory, rather than that of individual > vampires. While I don't claim to know the full canon of the > Assamites, one theme I keep reading about is being contract killers. > That seems to be something that could be built around for the card > game: get hired to take someone out and get paid when you suceed. > There are elements of it already, but it's largely in name only, or > the pieces are too separate to be made efficient enough for use. > Rather than have separate contract (Contract, Clandestine Contract) > and payment (Provision, Draught) cards, why not include the payment > with the contract? For example, you could have a contract that gives > you 2 pool if the chosen Assamite torporizes or burns the target > minion. You could have a permanent master card that allows other > players to pay blood or pool to give one of your Assamites a contract- > type ability, and you get paid that blood or pool if successful. > While blood is the "canonical" payment for the Assamites, other forms > of payment could be used, as well (equipment, pool loss on your prey, > political benefits, etc.).. > [ quoted text not captured ]

On 21 aug, 14:33, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote: > Sadly, LotN will not make the Assamites much better. They still have no > general plan :/ > > Johannes > Can't be sure of that yet, right? Maybe LSJ's laughing out loud reading all of this, cause he already designed all cards we want for LotN, who knows? After all, all cards will be new. Or did I miss the spoiler? -Teeka always hopeful for the best, until fate kicks him square in the nuts

On Aug 20, 3:23 pm, Robert Goudie <robe...@vtesinla.org> wrote: > I think the only real solution is to take the Ventrue and change their > clan symbol to that of the Assamites. The Assamites will then no > longer suck. I think they have some great clan cards, and access to Black Hand stuff is great sect-wise. The problem is Quietus. -- David Cherryholmes

On Aug 21, 4:51 pm, bluedevil <david.cherryhol...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think they have some great clan cards, and access to Black Hand > stuff is great sect-wise. The problem is Quietus. > While it is very difficult to seperate Assamites from Quietus (being a clan-specific discipline), I would largely agree with this statement. I've found the Black hand angle to make them reasonably playable, but Quietus is still largely useless in my books. Quietus should definitely branch off into more than just another combat discipline. Not to say that Quietus combat couldn't use a little help. They should have more funky action modifiers, reaction cards etc. - especially ones that deal with secrets and shady business. An example or three (take em with a pinch of salt): Backalley Deal Quietus Action + 1 stealth action [qui] Search your library for a piece of non-unique equipment and equip this acting minion with it. (Pay cost as normal) Shuffle your library afterwards. [QUI] As above, and if the equipment is a weapon, reduce the cost by 1 pool (but not below 0). Deathly Silence Quietus Combo [qui] Action Modifier - + 1 stealth. If this action is blocked, the acting vampire gets an optional manuever in the resulting combat. [QUI] Reaction - Only usable during a referendum. Usable by a tapped vampire. Any vampire voting in the referendum must burn 1 blood immediately, or they now abstain from the vote (this may change a minion's votes). Contract Killer Quietus Action 1 blood + 1 Stealth Action Unique. Put this card in play on the acting vampire. Burn this card if the acting vampire goes to torpor. [qui] Tap this card after a combat involving this vampire and an opposing minion with a contract naming this vampire. This vampire gains 1 blood when this card is tapped. [QUI] As above, and this vampire untaps. And as for the contracts, how about this improvement using a mechanic I thought the Assamites really deserved. Predator Master 1 Pool Unique When an Assamite burns a minion with a contract naming that Assamite in combat or as a (D) action (including diablerie), burn this card and search your library, hand, or ash-heap for a Trophy card and place it on the acting Assamite. The controller of any trophies may choose to move a trophy they control to the acting Assamite.

Teeka <teeka_...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1187706004.939874.316570 @d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: [ quoted text not captured ] Johannes could be referring to two things 1) this conversation is occuring way too late to have any influence on the content of Lords of the Night, or 2) he playtested LotN, and it doesn't have what is asked for here. We won't ask Johannes to clarify, as 1 is obvious and 2 he couldn't/shouldn't confirm, anyways... DZ

[ quoted text not captured ] If it were 2, he'd be violating the NDA already, so it must be 1.

On 21 Sie, 20:50, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > atomweaver wrote: > > Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1187706004.939874.316570 [ quoted text not captured ] either way quetus is terrible :/ as some people said before - the problem lies in quietu - assmite cards are quite good (contract needs tweaks - like flexible contract or trifle hand contract) i hope designers of LoN give quietus some good stuff - it is not funny if discipline your every vampire paid points is worthless

On Aug 21, 2:09 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > Predator > Master > 1 Pool > Unique > When an Assamite burns a minion with a contract naming that Assamite > in combat or as a (D) action (including diablerie), burn this card and > search your library, hand, or ash-heap for a Trophy card and place it > on the acting Assamite. The controller of any trophies may choose to > move a trophy they control to the acting Assamite. I was thinking something something similar to this at work today, only it tapped to give a Pool reward. Pick a formula that works, be it X - 2 or X/2 round up or whatever (X = capacity of burned vampire). That, and a QUI card that cancels the opposing minions strike, playable after they choose it, and allows them to choose a new one. That would be reactionary anti S:CE, but much more versatile for combat pwnage, as it could cancel a dodge or a flamethrower strike, too.

In message <1187690139.1...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, I. M. Bur <bura...@gmail.com> writes: >> This seems a *bit* too quick for 9 pool to come from nowhere. >> >> Contract. Unique. >> Requires an Assamite with capacity above 4. >> (D) Put this card on a ready vampire you do not control, and enter >> combat with that vampire. Tap this card. This Assamite is chosen for >> this contract. This Assamite may enter combat with the vampire with >> this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If this card is untapped when the >> vampire with this card leaves the ready region during or immediately >> after a combat with this Assamite, and this Assamite is still ready, >> gain X-2 pool, where X is the capacity of the vampire with this card. > >and add at the end [... and tap this card.] That way you can only get >the reward only once per turn. Actually, I'd prefer it were burned. Or something like that. Ben's original did that. Otherwise you can get into "fun" rescue, dunk again situations. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <1187697477....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> writes: >On Aug 21, 4:57 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > >> This seems a *bit* too quick for 9 pool to come from nowhere. > >At most, if you dunk an IC, and we all know how easy that is. And I'd >add that IC's can sure *do* 9 pool to you quickly enough. This is true. But what other card can give 9 pool straight away in one action? Parity Shift can manage that big a swing (-5, +5) but can't manage an actual 9 point gain. It's just a bit larger than anything else can manage, pretty much. >But sure, the first concern with something like this is not to provide >too much pool. I just think that the "too much" line is probably >safely a lot higher than people think. Playtesting would tell. I'm less concerned about the sheer amount of pool than the rapidity with which it turns up. That is, once you get beyond a few (1-3?) pool, I start getting a bit antsy about it on an action that happens right now. Parity Shift is, of course, towards the top of the power curve here, but also requires you to have less pool than the target to start with. While hardly impossible to abuse, it does provide a somewhat different dynamic. Additionally, a rapid 5-9 pool gain *and* Provision of the Silsila on top might be considered a bit too good. Now, of course, the Assamites do need improvements, but some sorts of improvements can make long-term support harder. It's harder to design other alternatives without them being wallpaper. It's harder to design other pieces of tech without thinking "But what if they get used with that really blood powerful card we created last year?" And so on. I'd rather see the Assamites improved using multiple opportunities provided by various good cards, rather than one tactical nuke that, while effective, has a small problem with a dust cloud making it hard to do much else. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1187697477....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, > bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> writes: >> On Aug 21, 4:57 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >> >>> This seems a *bit* too quick for 9 pool to come from nowhere. >> At most, if you dunk an IC, and we all know how easy that is. And I'd >> add that IC's can sure *do* 9 pool to you quickly enough. > > This is true. But what other card can give 9 pool straight away in one > action? Parity Shift can manage that big a swing (-5, +5) but can't > manage an actual 9 point gain. It's just a bit larger than anything > else can manage, pretty much. Consanguineous Boon, Autarkis Persecution, Political Stranglehold, Tribute to the Master, Minion Tap... all conditional, but then so is everything in this game. i'm not afraid of power cards for Assamites or Quietus. frankly, they need it. > >> But sure, the first concern with something like this is not to provide >> too much pool. I just think that the "too much" line is probably >> safely a lot higher than people think. Playtesting would tell. > > I'm less concerned about the sheer amount of pool than the rapidity with > which it turns up. That is, once you get beyond a few (1-3?) pool, I > start getting a bit antsy about it on an action that happens right now. > > Parity Shift is, of course, towards the top of the power curve here, but > also requires you to have less pool than the target to start with. > While hardly impossible to abuse, it does provide a somewhat different > dynamic. > > Additionally, a rapid 5-9 pool gain *and* Provision of the Silsila on > top might be considered a bit too good. just slightly stronger than a Voter Cap at that point, for 2 separate cards. and i'd naturally expect a Minion Tap soon after for both. except combat often is more risky and variable on tables. nah, not really afraid of it being too good. we already have strong stuff in the game close enough in power, except in 1 card. > > Now, of course, the Assamites do need improvements, but some sorts of > improvements can make long-term support harder. It's harder to design > other alternatives without them being wallpaper. It's harder to design > other pieces of tech without thinking "But what if they get used with > that really blood powerful card we created last year?" And so on. I'd > rather see the Assamites improved using multiple opportunities provided > by various good cards, rather than one tactical nuke that, while > effective, has a small problem with a dust cloud making it hard to do > much else. > fair enough. you prefer the incremental approach. sadly, after 10+ expansions since WotC, that incremental approach is glacially slow. in fact, considering the issues of bounce and how skewed the game is towards it, i would say the incremental approach has been failing this game of late. honestly i think the time for 'real revolution' is overdue; it's OK if old techniques are viable, but not OK if they still hold a stranglehold on the top 10 tourney concepts after all these years. but that's just my opinion... :)

On Aug 22, 2:06 pm, Azel <opaop...@comcast.net> wrote: > fair enough. you prefer the incremental approach. sadly, after 10+ > expansions since WotC, that incremental approach is glacially slow. in > fact, considering the issues of bounce and how skewed the game is > towards it, i would say the incremental approach has been failing this > game of late. honestly i think the time for 'real revolution' is > overdue; it's OK if old techniques are viable, but not OK if they still > hold a stranglehold on the top 10 tourney concepts after all these > years. but that's just my opinion... :) Well I have to say I'm with James here - incremental is both safer and much better in the long run. I have developed for a couple of online games and have on several occasions gone too far and created a mess to later clean up. Once you've made a change you piss off a lot of people if you have to try and undo it. Once you start making big changes then more big changes will be asked for and it's pretty easy to lose control. It really is going to be best to avoid this happening in the first place by making many small changes to edge clans / strategies up the power curve rather than giving them a shove. The design team seem pretty onto it to me, let's have a little faith here :-) Simon

I like a lot of the ideas that have been suggested already. Here are some card ideas inspired by this thread: Payment Up Front Master Req. Assamite Contract. Gain 1 Pool. Choose a ready Assamite for this contract and put this card on a minion controlled by another Methuselah. When the minion is no longer ready, burn this contract and gain 2 pool. Infamy Master 3 pool cost Contract. Other Methuselahs may choose to pay some or all of the cost of this card. Put this card on a minion controlled by another Methuselah. Move an Assamite vampire from your uncontrolled region to your ready region and move 5 blood to him from the blood bank. When the minion is no longer ready, or when the Assamite has no blood, burn this contract, remove all blood from the Assamite and move him back to your uncontrolled region. Silent Footsteps Modifier [obf][qui] +2 stealth, only usable during a (D) action. [OBF][QUI] +3 stealth, only usable during a (D) action. Bad Dates Reaction [qui] Only usable after a successful, non directed action. The acting minion burns 1 blood. You may put a quietus card from your hand on the acting minion, waiving its blood or pool cost. [QUI] As above, and you may also put a quietus card from your ash heap on the acting minion, waiving its blood or pool cost. Tainted Herd Action 1 blood cost [qui] (D) Put a quietus card from your ash heap on each minion controlled by your predator or your prey, waiving all blood or pool costs. [QUI] (D) As above, and each of his minions burn 1 blood. Poison Strike Combat 1 blood cost [qui] Strike: hand damage. The opposing vampire burns 2 blood. [QUI] Strike: hand damage, and put this card on the opposing vampire. The next time the vampire with this card untaps, burn this card and burn up to 5 blood from him. Alamut Training Combat Req. Assamite Before determining range, choose up to three combat cards from your ash heap and add them to your hand, then discard down to your hand size. Remove this card from the game. You may only play 1 Alamut Training each combat. Terrorist Connections Reaction Req. Assamite +2 intercept, only usable if the acting minion is not an independent vampire, or if this Assamite is chosen for a contract on the acting minion. If this Assamite successfully blocks, before combat, he may equip a weapon from your hand or ash heap. Rigged Bomb Action Req. Assamite (D) Burn a location, and a minion controlled by the same Methuselah takes 3 unpreventable damage. Cheers, Dai

atomweaver schrieb: > Teeka <teeka_...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1187706004.939874.316570 > @d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >> On 21 aug, 14:33, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote: >>> Sadly, LotN will not make the Assamites much better. They still have > no >>> general plan :/ >>> >>> Johannes >>> >> Can't be sure of that yet, right? Maybe LSJ's laughing out loud >> reading all of this, cause he already designed all cards we want for >> LotN, who knows? After all, all cards will be new. Or did I miss the >> spoiler? >> >> -Teeka >> always hopeful for the best, until fate kicks him square in the nuts >> > > Johannes could be referring to two things > > 1) this conversation is occuring way too late to have any influence on > the content of Lords of the Night, or Something like this, yeah. It´s too late to influence LotN and also the changes introduced by a new set to a clan have never been in such a drastic fashion like it was proposed here so I just assume that the Assamites will receive G4/5 vampires and a few new and nice cards but nothing earthshaking. Also the preview press didn´t indicate anything different. > 2) he playtested LotN, and it doesn't have what is asked for here. I have never playtested anything so far. Johannes Walch

The Name Forgotten schrieb: > Quietus should definitely branch off into more than just another > combat discipline. Not to say that Quietus combat couldn't use a > little help. They should have more funky action modifiers, reaction > cards etc. - especially ones that deal with secrets and shady > business. If Foul Blood was errata´ed to cost 0 blood it would actually be a very playable card. It´s allready good in some situations but then one could really consider to include it in a deck. -- Johannes Walch

[ quoted text not captured ] nah, fixing things is pretty easy with banning. it's short, sweet, and exact. it's really not a bad thing. i think of it as a toss up between banning power cards from failed experiments to ignoring whole sets as uncompetitive wastes of space. you have to realize that huge changes have routinely been introduced to this game in terms of mechanics and setup. but there hasn't been an adequate challenge in terms of power. that's the distinct difference. the inclusion of Bloodlines (let alone Laibon), anarch, 3-ways, double discipline, imbued, 11 new disciplines, like 15 new clans, new trophy mechanic, events, trifles, blah, blah, blah, has all already been added. that's not incremental building in terms of the game mechanics, terms, etc. -- that's a completely new wing with a basement, conservatory, and a gazebo. what i'm asking for is something *worthwhile*. really, there's no real reason there should be cards like Esteem, Tortured Confession, etc. coming down the pipes. someone should've just been like the designated driver and said, "no, give me the keys. i can't let you do this. i'm off to put in something good, even if it's a reprint." some things are just obviously bad. and that's the issue; ***there needs to be a real assessment on function and strategy not mechanics and presentation.*** (funny this also tangentially echoes ben peal's point) we've more than enough mechanics and presentation to last us; it's certainly more than just about any other CCG i've come across. what we need is a real assessment of strong effects and strategies to push the game forward. some mechanics need serious fleshing out and improvement -- the only way that happens is if you improve function through an overall strategy. my assertion is that the current strategy is far to reserved and has been so for far too many expansions now. that's all. besides, i think banning is easier to deal with than whole mechanics and sets being wallpapered because they are grossly underpowered. an experiment got out of hand *piff* card is no longer valid -- that's easy. far cheaper and less annoying than finding out the new set you just spent buying 2-5 boxes is essentially chaff with a few chase rares compared to the old cards you've been playing with for the past 10+ years. a chunk of what you get is gonna get tossed on the heap anyway; i just vote for more progressive experimentation with emergency surgical repairs compared to reserved stagnation with elaborate and unnecessary preventatives. basically, i can take the shot over the medicine/therapy/waiting/etc.

On Aug 23, 12:38 pm, Azel <opaop...@comcast.net> wrote: > you have to realize that huge changes have routinely been introduced to > this game in terms of mechanics and setup. but there hasn't been an > adequate challenge in terms of power. that's the distinct difference. > > the inclusion of Bloodlines (let alone Laibon), anarch, 3-ways, double > discipline, imbued, 11 new disciplines, like 15 new clans, new trophy > mechanic, events, trifles, blah, blah, blah, has all already been added. > that's not incremental building in terms of the game mechanics, terms, > etc. -- that's a completely new wing with a basement, conservatory, and > a gazebo. what i'm asking for is something *worthwhile*. Sure those have all been major changes to the game. However I would say that most of the major changes listed above have started off slightly under-powered in terms of strength relative to existing cards. I'm sure this is a deliberate design decision and one that I support 100%. I'm not saying don't add major new mechanics, I'm saying it's better to err on the side of under powered than over and adjust in subsequent releases as required. > really, there's no real reason there should be cards like Esteem, > Tortured Confession, etc. coming down the pipes. someone should've just > been like the designated driver and said, "no, give me the keys. i can't > let you do this. i'm off to put in something good, even if it's a > reprint." some things are just obviously bad. and that's the issue; > ***there needs to be a real assessment on function and strategy not > mechanics and presentation.*** (funny this also tangentially echoes ben > peal's point) Different issue but yes I would agree, some of the re-print choices are a little bit interesting at times. I'm though sure that it's quite a difficult job to assess what does and doesn't need re-printing each set to accomodate new and old players. While I would certainly prefer that when I buy a box of X I get a reasonable number of the new cards for set X, but that's a different issue. > we've more than enough mechanics and presentation to last us; it's > certainly more than just about any other CCG i've come across. what we > need is a real assessment of strong effects and strategies to push the > game forward. some mechanics need serious fleshing out and improvement > -- the only way that happens is if you improve function through an > overall strategy. my assertion is that the current strategy is far to > reserved and has been so for far too many expansions now. that's all. Well we've had a lot of new mechanics all of which I've seen played at tournament level except anarchs. I do agree that some mechanics need a bit of fleshing out but, in general terms, they're all playable. Again my view is that aiming for balance when released and erring on the side of under-powered is safer strategy than trying to push out the power curve. The presentation / layout changes are annoying but that's more down to a change in ownership of the game than anything I think. Fingers crossed we don't get any more changes there. Cheers Simon

Everyone's talking on the library cards. But, what about the Vampires themselves? I'd like to see some cohesive out of clan disciplines with what's already available to the G4 and maybe something else exclusive to the G5s. I'd like to have a new Star Assamite, like Tariq, Fatimah, Thetmes, etc etc etc...... Maybe another rusher. Perhaps we'll even see an Assamite that pays less for Quietus. I think it would be amusing to see an Assamite that isn't blood cursed with a built in Amaranth special. The reason, I bring this up. Is the set does include new Vampires.

Shade schrieb: > However I would say that most of the major changes listed above have > started off slightly under-powered in terms of strength relative to > existing cards. I'm sure this is a deliberate design decision and one > that I support 100%. > > I'm not saying don't add major new mechanics, I'm saying it's better > to err on the side of under powered than over and adjust in subsequent > releases as required. [snip] > Well we've had a lot of new mechanics all of which I've seen played at > tournament level except anarchs. I do agree that some mechanics need > a bit of fleshing out but, in general terms, they're all playable. > Again my view is that aiming for balance when released and erring on > the side of under-powered is safer strategy than trying to push out > the power curve. They are not slightly underpowered, they are *grossly* underpowered. Anarchs and Trophies don´t see the tournament scene at all. Black Hand is a little here and there (but only since SoC, and even then ..). Laibon decks are still very scarce and except for No Secrets or PRE/Vote I haven´t seen anything even Tier 2. I don´t support this, since if WW will print more underpowered expansions the game will not continue to sell and might die sooner or later (I fear that might be sooner as one thinks). You think you are on the safe side and can enjoy the game you like so much since no "evil-overpowered" cards are introduced, but in the long run it will kill the game business-wise. -- Johannes Walch

In message <46CD5CD5...@vekn.de>, Johannes Walch <johanne...@vekn.de> writes: >They are not slightly underpowered, they are *grossly* underpowered. >Anarchs and Trophies don´t see the tournament scene at all. Black Hand >is a little here and there (but only since SoC, and even then ..). >Laibon decks are still very scarce and except for No Secrets or >PRE/Vote I haven´t seen anything even Tier 2. The Laibon decks being scarce isn't that surprising, given that they're (mostly) normal clans with very few members. Anarchs do see some play, but they don't lend themselves well to that many clans or deck-styles. Trophies, most of them are pretty underwhelming. But they were only, what, less than 10 library cards, so that's not actually a huge problem. >I don´t support this, since if WW will print more underpowered >expansions the game will not continue to sell and might die sooner or >later (I fear that might be sooner as one thinks). You think you are on >the safe side and can enjoy the game you like so much since no "evil- >overpowered" cards are introduced, but in the long run it will kill the >game business-wise. I'm not suggesting that anyone's planning on making evil, overpowered cards. However, I prefer having a range of very solid cards than one killer cards because: - the afore-mentioned problems with possible evil overpoweredness - the afore-mentioned difficulty of creating alternatives in the same area, because they've been outclassed, or they may combo too well - variety. It would be nice to see three or four good deck archetypes for some clans, and not have them all have to use that one killer card because that's the only way to be competitive. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:12:57 -0700, <ben...@gmail.com> wrote: > Right now, the Assamites' only path to victory is a star player > deck, mainly Tariq or Amaravati. I would prefer to see a blueprint > for the _clan's_ path to victory, rather than that of individual > vampires. While I don't claim to know the full canon of the > Assamites, one theme I keep reading about is being contract killers. > That seems to be something that could be built around for the card > game: get hired to take someone out and get paid when you suceed. > There are elements of it already, but it's largely in name only, or > the pieces are too separate to be made efficient enough for use. > Rather than have separate contract (Contract, Clandestine Contract) > and payment (Provision, Draught) cards, why not include the payment > with the contract? For example, you could have a contract that gives > you 2 pool if the chosen Assamite torporizes or burns the target > minion. You could have a permanent master card that allows other > players to pay blood or pool to give one of your Assamites a contract- > type ability, and you get paid that blood or pool if successful. > While blood is the "canonical" payment for the Assamites, other forms > of payment could be used, as well (equipment, pool loss on your prey, > political benefits, etc.).. If we keep the Contract card as a benchmark, this isn't going to happen. Contract should become Trifle, and then new Contracts could be introduced according to the above ideas. More expensive contracts might do more, but require more significant investment. Having a powerful set of Contract options might actually be enough to set the 'Smites straight, with no need for additional game mechanics. E.G. (also drawing from some of the other ideas mentioned) Persona Non Grata Contract <choose Assamite, enter combat as (D) action> The minion with this card is Red List. If they are in torpor, the Assamite chosen for this contract can burn them as a (D) action. Prestigous Client 1 Pool Contract <choose Assamite, enter combat as (D) action> If chosen Assamite sends target to torpor, gain 2 Pool; if burns target, gain 4 pool. Mark of the Century 2 Pool Unique Contract <choose Assamite, enter combat as (D) action> If target is sent to torpor or burned, they are burned instead, and you gain pool equal to their capacity. Support cards: Draw with Honor Combat Only usable in combat with the target. Before range equip this 'Smite with an equipment from your hand or ash heap. Pay cost. All in a Night's Work Action Modifier/Reaction Only usable after a combat with the target. Untap this 'Smite. Personal Profile Combat 1 pool Play before range, in combat with the target. You may cancel the effect of one strike the opponent makes until the end of the action. Opponent must select a different strike if possible. Otherwise they cannot strike. ...these are just wild ideas meant to illustrate how I think the Contract mechanic can be upgraded. These are just sketchy ideas, not actual card suggestions. I'm sure that with playtesting a commitment to turn the contract mechanic into a powerful archetype would bear some very sweet fruits. -- Regards, Daneel

On Aug 23, 10:09 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote: > They are not slightly underpowered, they are *grossly* underpowered. > Anarchs and Trophies don´t see the tournament scene at all. Black Hand > is a little here and there (but only since SoC, and even then ..). > Laibon decks are still very scarce and except for No Secrets or PRE/Vote > I haven´t seen anything even Tier 2. I agree Anarchs aren't the best yeah. That's quite a while ago now though. The Laibon clans are really just combinations of other clans in terms of disciplines so I see the vampires in them get used but not clan specific decks. For example AUS / CEL is already played by the Toreador so the Osebo are pretty similar to the Toreador if you want to take that angle. Sure I would like to have them be able to do a few more things on their own over and above the No Secrets, Tsunda Breed / Vote decks, but those are two new concepts that came up out of that set. > I don´t support this, since if WW will print more underpowered > expansions the game will not continue to sell and might die sooner or > later (I fear that might be sooner as one thinks). You think you are on > the safe side and can enjoy the game you like so much since no > "evil-overpowered" cards are introduced, but in the long run it will > kill the game business-wise. I'm not saying don't print powerful cards. I'm saying aim for balanced cards and if problem areas need fixing then introduce multiple good cards not one or two power cards to address it for similar reasons that James mentions. Also there are loads of creative minds that play the game, they'll come up with numerous ways to use the cards that the designers didn't consider to come up with strong combos. I have no basis for theorising why people do and don't buy cards other than I like the game therefore I buy cards :-) Still I agree that underpowered expansions eg Anarchs aren't that good for the game. I just don't think that any of the recent sets (note I only just got a couple of boxes of SoC) have been like that and I'm looking forward to seeing what the next set brings. Simon

In article <1187929531.4...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Shade <sha...@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree Anarchs aren't the best yeah. That's quite a while ago now > though. The Anarchs are deeply hindered by the need to become an Anarch, which, even in the best of situations, drags a good deck into the land of mediocre--if you have a lot of "Go Anarch" cards, your deck is, like, 10% useless after the first 4 cards or so, and if you don't draw some early, you either don't work or you Go Anarch the hard way, and then the dead draws in your deck increase. If you don't have a lot of Go Anarch tech in your deck, you are then planning on wasting actions and blood just so you can play your deck. I think the Anarch expansion/mechanic could be *vastly* improved simply by introducing a bunch of vampires in an upcoming expansion that are inherrently Anarch. > The Laibon clans are really just combinations of other clans in terms > of disciplines so I see the vampires in them get used but not clan > specific decks. The Laibon are fine, they just don't have enough vampires per clan. There are certainly some very solid, winning strategies for the various Laibon clans, but not many, due to the small number of available vampires. Add 4 or 5 more good vampires to each Laibon clan, and you got some very solid clans. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html "Find hungry samurai." -The Old Man

On Aug 24, 8:50 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > The Anarchs are deeply hindered by the need to become an Anarch, which, > even in the best of situations, drags a good deck into the land of > mediocre--if you have a lot of "Go Anarch" cards, your deck is, like, > 10% useless after the first 4 cards or so, and if you don't draw some > early, you either don't work or you Go Anarch the hard way, and then the > dead draws in your deck increase. If you don't have a lot of Go Anarch > tech in your deck, you are then planning on wasting actions and blood > just so you can play your deck. Powerbase: LA helps with this a lot. It's not hard to triple up on it since it's giving you extra discard phases anyway, and then your dead cards all turn into super untap. > I think the Anarch expansion/mechanic could be *vastly* improved simply > by introducing a bunch of vampires in an upcoming expansion that are > inherrently Anarch. But, agreed. -- David Cherryholmes

In article <1187960554....@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> wrote: > Powerbase: LA helps with this a lot. It's not hard to triple up on it > since it's giving you extra discard phases anyway, and then your dead > cards all turn into super untap. Oh, sure--it certainly helps, but it is the kind of help that is "Well, the deck has a giant albatross around its neck, and this kinda makes the albatros a little bit lighter...". Heck, the most successful Anarch deck I ever built had two PB:LA *and* two Secret Library of Alexandria for flushing the extra Go Anarch cards I packed the deck with. The deck was ok. But suffered from having, like, 6x Go Anarch, 6x Garlicks Legacy, 2x PB:LA and 2x Secret Library (and then all the doubles of the Fee Stakes). Which was more than 20% of the deck to become Anarch and then help get rid of the cards that make me Anarch after I don't need them anymore. Which could have been just 20% more of my deck being, ya know, good. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 24 Aug, 15:25, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > In article <1187960554.441980.86...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > bluedevil <david.cherryhol...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Powerbase: LA helps with this a lot. It's not hard to triple up on it > > since it's giving you extra discard phases anyway, and then your dead > > cards all turn into super untap. > > Oh, sure--it certainly helps, but it is the kind of help that is "Well, > the deck has a giant albatross around its neck, and this kinda makes the > albatros a little bit lighter...". Heck, the most successful Anarch deck > I ever built had two PB:LA *and* two Secret Library of Alexandria for > flushing the extra Go Anarch cards I packed the deck with. The deck was > ok. But suffered from having, like, 6x Go Anarch, 6x Garlicks Legacy, 2x > PB:LA and 2x Secret Library (and then all the doubles of the Fee > Stakes). Which was more than 20% of the deck to become Anarch and then > help get rid of the cards that make me Anarch after I don't need them > anymore. > > Which could have been just 20% more of my deck being, ya know, good. > > Peter D Bakija Agreed re: Albatross. The only deck idea I have seen where that is not a problem is a anthelios deck, where the extra galric legacies were used to feed the red star. But thats the exception that proves the rule.

[ quoted text not captured ] Playing in L. A., I saw some really reslient Laibon decks. I would put them about as powerful as the Sabbat. They bloat well between all their hunting bonuses, Guruhi are the Land, Mbare Market, etc... Anarchs have a good niche in the metagame. With Anarch Revolt they naturally hate Imbued. For me an Anarch deck is like a specialized weenie/ mid-cap combat deck. The Red List/ Trophy deck is another combat specialization deck, and also has advantages vs. Imbued. I don't want to defend every design decision but I'm glad to see Red List/ Trophies in the game. I wonder what type of cards you would design, how do you make something even more over the top than Lost in the Crowds/ Enhanced Senses/ Conditioning, which actually adds to the game instead of pointless power creep? Oh and here are some more Assamite/ Quietus card ideas: Death Time combat 1 blood cost Play as this minion is entering combat. [qui][cel] The opposing minion cannot play non-strike combat cards during the first round of combat. [QUI][CEL] The opposing minion cannot play more than one combat card during the first round of combat. Death Manifest combat [qui][cel] Gain 1 additional strike. [QUI][CEL] As above, and before your additional strike, you may change the range of combat from long to short, or from short to long. Cheers, Dai

[ quoted text not captured ] This, I l,ike. Really really like. Could be great, co it can give you use of thin blood in a combat deck that spits blood! Nice one.... > > Cheers, > > Dai

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:43:17 -0700, Dai <kakit...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >I wonder what type of cards you would design, how do you make >something even more over the top than Lost in the Crowds/ Enhanced >Senses/ Conditioning, which actually adds to the game instead of >pointless power creep? Well.. I don't think it is Johannes intention. I think his intention is to print power cards for archetypes which are already considered weak (S&B is not weak). And Assamites combat is considered weak. Take Yoruba Shrine for example. It is really powerful card. Semi-DI on (D) actions which remains constantly on the table (and some other nice effects on top of it). If it wasn't only for Assamites it could have been the nightmare card for the game. But it is not. It doesn't break the game for sure. Nobody complains. It is just a small boost for the clan which is considered rather weak. Like Ben said, Assamites need plan to oust anybody. Today they have none except some tricks with specific vampires. So printing some powerful cards for combat archetype for them really isn't so dangerous. It reminds the talk about the card that sets the range for Assamites. For years people have been worrying it would'd made them too powerful in combat because of ToD and BS. Well.. KMW brought Selective Silence in the end. And the game is still fine. Actually I'm not sure this card appears even in TWD archive. In short, we (I mean those who try to play Assamites and there are some as this thead shows) don't need more Purifications but more Yoruba Shrines. The first ones make us disappointed and we don't care about the clan and maybe the game in the end. The second ones make us play this game more.;) >Oh and here are some more Assamite/ Quietus card ideas: Actually I like both cards.:) Y.

On Aug 25, 4:45 am, Yosar <yo...@gazeta.pl> wrote: > On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:43:17 -0700, Dai <kakitada...@hotmail.com> [ quoted text not captured ] I see Assamite combat as gun combat. Guns, blurs, psyches. And to me that is totally effective combat already. Story-wise it makes sense: they've had assassin training, they're like green beret, the proper use of quietus is to complement gun/ weapon combat, not supplant it. The exception being the wizards with THA. If quietus makes Assamites the best gun combat in the game, I feel like it's done it's job. Of course I don't feel like it's there yet, but cards like Selective Silence, Wave of Lethargy, Taste of Death etc... are a good step. I don't really understand this "obsession" with lobbying for an Immortal Grapple-esque card, when Psyche is perfectly suitable. Grapple shouldn't really do what it does at inferior anyway, the two abilities on it should be switched (inferior the press, superior the hand-strikes restriction). For me the greater problem of Assamites is hitting a deck that can hit back, i.e. another gun combat, Crows, grapples, rotschreck, etc... The lack is greater on the defensive end, which is where I see that first card I came up with would help out. I see Psyche as exactly the type of card you'd want if your goal is to torporize a vampire with a minimal amount of actions. The other major weakness I see in Assamites is they tend to larger thugs but have no inherent active untap (a reactive untap in Black Sunrise, but no stealth). Cheers, Dai

On Aug 25, 9:43 pm, Dai <kakitada...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I see Assamite combat as gun combat. Guns, blurs, psyches. And to me > that is totally effective combat already. Story-wise it makes sense: > they've had assassin training, they're like green beret, the proper > use of quietus is to complement gun/ weapon combat, not supplant it. Hello? You are saying that the best use of the clan's siganture discipline, is as support to Guns and Cel, and you are able with no irony to say you do not see the problem with Qui as it stands at the moment? You being serious? > The exception being the wizards with THA. If quietus makes Assamites > the best gun combat in the game, I feel like it's done it's job. Of > course I don't feel like it's there yet, but cards like Selective > Silence, Wave of Lethargy, Taste of Death etc... are a good step. > I don't really understand this "obsession" with lobbying for an > Immortal Grapple-esque card, when Psyche is perfectly suitable. -snip IG comparison- Psyche is in no way a PRE-EMPTIVE anti-S:CE. That's the whole point. Assamites have perfectly sufficient anti-hitback, its called Disease. Problem is, all your superb set up cards are foiled by one single S:CE card. And you had to pay for all of them. So having to now play them again (resources wasted) and pay blood for them again (more resources wasted) cos my S:CE reply is Psyche, this makes sense to you as sufficient anti S:CE? Really? > I see Psyche as exactly the type of card you'd want if your goal is to > torporize a vampire with a minimal amount of actions. If you are using a gun, and not Qui.... > The other major weakness I see in Assamites is they tend to larger > thugs but have no inherent active untap (a reactive untap in Black > Sunrise, but no stealth). Um, wtf? One of the three inclan discs is OBF? So where do they have no stealth? > Cheers, > > Dai Maybe try to play an Assamite Qui based combat deck, then tell me how exactly Psyche is sufficient. And by that I do not mean guns. I am not even gonna get into the whole "Story is they are like green berets" and so they use guns. Most efficient close combat assassination weapon? A knife mate, ask any SO operative.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:01:18 -0000, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> wrote: > Maybe try to play an Assamite Qui based combat deck, then tell me how > exactly Psyche is sufficient. And by that I do not mean guns. I think that if you are serious about using Psyche! as anti-S:CE technique, you need to increase the count of all the cards you'll waste if opponent S:CEs. If you rush with the Smites this will probably be Flash and Blood Sweat, in like amounts, as the Psyche! you include. Which will introduce the "too many combat cards" syndrome for your deck. Maybe we could change the rules to allow Assamite decks to have 120 cards? :) -- Regards, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Sorry. I really did mean intercept, not stealth. Why would you not use equipment (guns, Kali's Fang, garotte, whatev), if you have celerity? POT combat not having any synergy with equipment is one of it's major weaknesses. I don't see any significant advantage in not using equipment, and I don't see what you are giving up by using equipment in Assamites. This is really glass half full, glass half empty here. Quietus has multiple answers to grapple combat that another gun deck would love to contemplate (Scorpion Touch, Dragon's Call, Disease, Thin Blood). It also has answers to damage prevention and burn ability that other gun decks would envy (well, there is Dragon's Breath Rounds). Quietus makes Assamites well rounded combatants. So really I don't understand the statement that Assamite combat is not respectable because only really specific cases (Nergal, Merged Petaniqua, Cailean, Emmelich, Saulot, Marthe Dizier, Dragos, probably some other I'm missing) do you find combat that is definitively better. Cheers, Dai

On Aug 25, 8:15 pm, Dai <kakitada...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Why would you not use equipment (guns, Kali's Fang, garotte, whatev), > if you have celerity? POT combat not having any synergy with equipment > is one of it's major weaknesses. I don't see any significant advantage > in not using equipment, and I don't see what you are giving up by > using equipment in Assamites. Pot combat has transient effects that reduce the need for equipment that enhances damage at either range. Pot combat has excellent synergy with bikes and jackets. Equipment is needed in Assamite decks, agreed. > > This is really glass half full, glass half empty here. Quietus has > multiple answers to grapple combat that another gun deck would love to > contemplate (Scorpion Touch, Dragon's Call, Disease, Thin Blood). Answers? ok - Question: You're grappled and just got punched for 5, what do you do? Answer: Uh.. hands for 1 and you'll have to burn this card next turn while I try to get out of torpor? How about you burn two blood for my one and then Taste of Vitae it back? Glass knocked over and vitae spilling onto the floor. If I'm playing a Qui/Cel gun deck, I don't have any hand strikes in there, anyway. I have Selective Silence and Psyche!s, so if I get caught, I'm hosed. There's not enough room in a combat deck to carry 5-6 prayer cards, and not enough room in your hand to hold onto them just in case. We're not talking about the 53-card combat decks here - we're talking about decks that actually try to oust their prey. Ousting tech takes up the space. > It also has answers to damage prevention and burn ability that other gun > decks would envy (well, there is Dragon's Breath Rounds). Quietus > makes Assamites well rounded combatants. It has Selective SIlence and Taste of Death, which is great against non-dodge, prevent, S:CE, or ranged hitback. CEL + Equipment makes Assamites decent combatants. It also makes any other clan with CEL just as decent. QUI has a good strike card, a good set range card, and a good untap reaction in Black Sunrise. In my year of writing the Assamite Newsletter, I tested these cards. I built decks around them, tweaked the decks, took them to casual games and tournaments. The only QUI cards I found to be worth playing are Black Sunrise, Selective Silence (when appropriate), and Tatse of Death. Honorable mentions to Truth of Blood and Draught of the Soul when it's a Tariq deck. Everything else that is plenty cool is too expensive or too easily countered. I am of the mind that every Assamite/QUI combat deck could be done more efficiently with equipment or Potence. Period. They are, believe it or not, more effective bleeders and maybe even voters than they are assassins. Sad. >So really I don't understand > the statement that Assamite combat is not respectable because only > really specific cases (Nergal, Merged Petaniqua, Cailean, Emmelich, > Saulot, Marthe Dizier, Dragos, probably some other I'm missing) do you > find combat that is definitively better. > Play Assamites EXCLUSIVELY for a year and get back to us. > Cheers, > > Dai *clink* I'll drink to that!

On Aug 25, 11:57 pm, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote: > On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:01:18 -0000, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> [ quoted text not captured ] I am SO not serious about Psyche being a good anti S:CE for smites..... But you would have to be psychic to pick that up! :) Heh. Daneel, sorry if I came across grumpy, but having to dredge up all the same answers to the "But they have Psyche" statement is really annoying. Especially as this person seems to think that Assamites should be happy that they can use guns. And not Qui. Sheesh!

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:43:59 -0700, Dai <kakit...@hotmail.com> wrote: >I see Assamite combat as gun combat. Guns, blurs, psyches. And to me >that is totally effective combat already. Story-wise it makes sense: >they've had assassin training, they're like green beret, the proper >use of quietus is to complement gun/ weapon combat, not supplant it. But Quietus doesn't help in the gun combat also. The only card which you could probably use is ToD. And even this is not especially effective. It's better to have additional strikes and make more damage to play ToV. So you could put 2-3 ToD if you will really find place in the deck. Or better just put Ivory Bow and forget ToD. So what does it make Assamites better gun fighters than Toreadors, Brujahs, Osebo or !Gangrels? Nothing. Even more. Those clans (except Osebo of course) have their counterparts in the form of anti-clans so they have much better selection of vampires to make a reasonable CEL crypt. Assamites don't even have this. And Toreadors and Osebo have bounce. If you wanna play CEL guns with Assamites your crypt must be in the range 5-8 capacity. If you want CEL QUI (there's completly no point to play SS, WoL or ToD without superior) it's even higher. So you will probably play most of the games with 2 vampires (plus cost of weapons). It's not the CEL gun combat , it's almost star deck. >The exception being the wizards with THA. If quietus makes Assamites >the best gun combat in the game, I feel like it's done it's job. Of >course I don't feel like it's there yet, but cards like Selective >Silence, Wave of Lethargy, Taste of Death etc... are a good step. Wave of Lethargy? One blood for what? Potence kills you (IG + TS, no strike cards, press from IG won't cost him blood), Animalism kills you (CC, DotB and Retainers don't care if it is close or long range) and combat ends just doesn't care. Poor man's Terror Frenzy. And you don't see so many Terror Frenzys in the Animalism decks even. Selective Silence? What's the use of SS if you have guns with maneuvers and Pursuits? If you're really worried about DotB you put Sire's Index Finger or Blade of Enoch (or both). I have BH Assamites Wall gun combat deck. The only Quietus card I have in it is Black Sunrise. Hardly combat card that helps Assamites gun combat. ToD is not worth it usually. Better put more Psyche!s and additional strikes so you have the chance to torpor anyone when you really must and not to be turned down by another s:CE and then die next turn. >I don't really understand this "obsession" with lobbying for an >Immortal Grapple-esque card, when Psyche is perfectly suitable. >Grapple shouldn't really do what it does at inferior anyway, the two >abilities on it should be switched (inferior the press, superior the >hand-strikes restriction). But it is not switched. And hardly breaks the game. You say Psyche! is enough. I say there are 12 vampires in the group 3-4 for Assamites, only 8 of them has Celerity, and just 5 of them has superior, 4 of them doesn't even have any form of Celerity, 3 has not so good inferior. Everybody has at least qui (and 8 of them has QUI). This is the reallity. Not RPG material. You want me to play combat guns? With what? You want me to base my fight against most common combat (s:CE) on the third rate discipline? Yes, it's third, 11 Assamites in the group 3-4 has Obfuscate. It just looks like Ben said, give every vampire in the game level of Quietus and the game will still be the same. And I don't even lobby for the pre-emptive anti-s:CE. I lobby for the good Quietus card. >I see Psyche as exactly the type of card you'd want if your goal is to >torporize a vampire with a minimal amount of actions. I'm not sure how Psyche! has any influence over number of actions to torpor opponent. But I'm fairly sure that IG has much better effect on this number. You just need one, and you never know how much Psyche!s you need. Sometimes even 2 could be not enough. So you waste your action. With IG you don't waste any action. >The other major weakness I see in Assamites is they tend to larger >thugs but have no inherent active untap (a reactive untap in Black >Sunrise, but no stealth). Heh.. I guess you meant intercept. They have stealth. And yes, some form of the untap would be helpful, especialy if it would be related to the combat. Y.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:19:44 -0000, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 25, 11:57 pm, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Ok, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here, I also have a soft spot for the 'Smites (missing the PoB) and think that we should be able to play them as slick killers without needing to use guns with them. Sure, if you use guns, Psyche! is a good anti-SCE card, because the manoeuvre and the initial strike are built in, so you don't waste any resources on them. But if you want to play something even as simple as Flash + Blood Sweat, Psyche! suddenly becomes overly expensive at 3 cards and 1 blood down the drain for each S:CE your opponent pulls. I'm all for a 'Smite-specific pre-range anti-S:CE card. And a whole new level of power to the contracts. And some 'Smites who have bonuses to combat, contracts or quietus. And... I want to see true fear on my opponents' faces when I influence out Parnassus at a tournament table. And not the "ouch, this guy is going to almost completely wreck my game before dying horribly" kind of fear. The "OMG he is playing a Tier 1 combat deck and is going to hand my ass while sweeping the table" kind of fear. -- Regards, Daneel

On Aug 26, 2:53 pm, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote: > Ok, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here, I also have a soft spot > for the 'Smites (missing the PoB) and think that we should be able to > play them as slick killers without needing to use guns with them. > Daneel All bow in reverence at the memory of lost Alamut... :( And I agree. I want a state where I influence out an Assamite, and the instinctive reaction is "Oh S@#T!!!!" not OMG......... There are ways of currently making them very efficient at ousting, but none of those (cept star decks) include combat. What the hell is the point of having an assassin clan if they cannot frikkin assassinate anyone? Explain that one to me???

I get the "Oh, S***" reaction right now with assamites. That's thanks to the diversity I have with Assamite Combat. While I don't play Gun decks with Assamite. I play just about everything else. As such they never know what to expect. Which in itself a good thing. However, this reaction only happens in my Meta, due to the high combat. Anywhere else, I get eyed as an easy VP due to the fact that Assamites generally can't defend against bleed without going backwards. Or I have to deal with various SCEs decks. Which then requires me to waste cards, unless I'm playing something where I have to fake not having anything with a wave at long. Hope they don't SCE just to be safe, then dunk them with ToD or whatever is necessary. A pre-emptive SCE would solve this. To appease all the people worried that it will disrupt the game, just make it a chase rare for Assamites like Draught of the Soul, Yoruba Shrine, Silence of Death and others. The majority of cards posted, I'm not very fond of. As many of them turn older cards that are used here and there into wallpaper. And a few of them, I just thought were silly. Reaction Reduce a bleed against you by 1. If the acting minion is a vampire with capacity less than 6 or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3. Not usable if the acting minion is an Assamite or wraith or has flight. Now, look at that text. It's not bad, but still it's wallpaper if it were to ever exist. Because Assamites are better off grafting some bounce discipline than to using something like that in conjuction with CoTe or any other reduce. Especially considering that it's really only useful against 5 caps and less as well as Allies. Then add to it the three restrictions. Baali get Flight often. So, it's useless against them. It's rather useless against old school malks, because even if you do reduce it by 3, odds are you're still getting bled hard. Aside from a weenie hack deck, this card would be pointless. As for Wraiths, I've never seen anyone bleed with them. So, that restriction means little to nothing. Overall, the Assamites would be better off with either a Bounce or bleed fails reaction. Unless of course, they have a means to bloat really well. And at this time, they don't. MT\Provision, barely works and nearly requires you build a Star Deck to get full advantage of it. Which in itself has a lot of problems if your Star becomes unusable.

Planned Assault Action card Target Methuselah may cancel this card, this Methuselah gain 2 pool from the blood bank if so. qui: +2 Stealth. Enter combat with another minion. QUI: As above. For the duration of action this minion pay 1 blood less for Quitus cards.

[ quoted text not captured ] Intresting, but isn't this the greatest way of gaining 2 pool per action? you can limit the rush to prey/predator to prevent a poolgain exploit. Or limit the amount that can be played (per turn) Or the text can be rewriten to give a greater backdraw for canceling the card. Like make the targeted Methuselah pay 1 pool to cancel.

[ quoted text not captured ] or simply controler of the vampire must pay 2 pool and you gain the 2 pool :)

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:23:23 -0700, Oortje <interne...@hotmail.com> wrote: >On 29 aug, 10:52, the.papasm...@gmail.com wrote: >> Planned Assault >> Action card >> Target Methuselah may cancel this card, this Methuselah gain 2 pool >> from the blood bank if so. >> qui: +2 Stealth. Enter combat with another minion. >> QUI: As above. For the duration of action this minion pay 1 blood less >> for Quitus cards. > >Intresting, but isn't this the greatest way of gaining 2 pool per >action? >you can limit the rush to prey/predator to prevent a poolgain exploit. >Or limit the amount that can be played (per turn) Actually no. It's not the greatest way to gain 2 pool, Art Scam or even Voter Captivation is much better. This card is quite tricky. You definitely don't want to include it as your only rush action. You don't want to include it even in a big quantities. Because if people start to cancel it (and why not, it doesn't cost them anything, particularly prey) you may gain 2 pool but you jamm on your combat cards and your deck practically doesn't work. So you have no chance to oust your prey actually. Combat deck just needs to successfully rush. >Or the text can be rewriten to give a greater backdraw for canceling >the card. Like make the targeted Methuselah pay 1 pool to cancel. Now this would make this card almost wallpaper. It would be like the bleed for 1. Does anybody block combat deck which bleeds for 1? I highly doubt. Unless it's another combat deck with combat that trumps yours. Y.

On Aug 29, 2:24 pm, Yosar <yo...@gazeta.pl> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:23:23 -0700, Oortje > [ quoted text not captured ] Cancelling the action card would leave your dude untapped, having taken no action. He could then take whatever action he wanted, including playing another copy of this card. So yes, it'd be kinda like a bleed of one. That you could repeat ad absurdum in a single turn, and then follow up with an actual bleed (or bum's rush). Speaking entirely hypothetically of course. witness1

Jyhad wrote: > Overall, the Assamites would be better off with either a Bounce or > bleed fails reaction. "Strategy X, but with bounce" doesn't strike me as particularly interesting. Fight-Bloat would be very different archetype to add to the game, and is much more in flavor. > Unless of course, they have a means to bloat really well. And at this time, they don't. If you're a fight deck, sure. However, Amaravati breed-boon is highly effective for bloat. Still, it's another star player deck and it isn't what the Assamite fans are looking for. - Ben Peal

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:35:06 -0700, witness1 <jwnew...@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> >Or the text can be rewriten to give a greater backdraw for canceling >> >the card. Like make the targeted Methuselah pay 1 pool to cancel. >> >> Now this would make this card almost wallpaper. It would be like the >> bleed for 1. Does anybody block combat deck which bleeds for 1? I >> highly doubt. Unless it's another combat deck with combat that trumps >> yours. > >Cancelling the action card would leave your dude untapped, having >taken no action. He could then take whatever action he wanted, >including playing another copy of this card. So yes, it'd be kinda >like a bleed of one. That you could repeat ad absurdum in a single >turn, and then follow up with an actual bleed (or bum's rush). But still there is no point in having big quantities of a such card in combat deck. The card would have built-in DI on itself. And we all know how unpopular DI is ....heh. And hardly anybody was ever ousted by repeatedly using DI from Anthelios.;) Y.

[ quoted text not captured ] If only Bruise and bloat with assamites will be possible .... But back to the topic: Assamites need: -better quietus cards -re-write first strike rule(strike faster than combat ends) -better quietus cards -more vampires -better quietus cards -better blood management Leech Action +1 stealth hunt action.If this hunt is successful, the acting vampire untaps. qui:move 1 blood to this vampire from the blood bank. QUI:as above, and put the card on the vampire. The vampire may burn this card to untap. A vampire can have only 1 Leech.

On Aug 29, 6:56 pm, Yosar <yo...@gazeta.pl> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:35:06 -0700, witness1 > [ quoted text not captured ] No point in playing stackable undeflectable Command the Beasts, or no point in playing a rush card at +2 stealth? witness1

[ quoted text not captured ] If this rush card can be canceled by just 1 pool, yes, no point. Because you play combat deck. If you don't play combat deck people will not cancel this card. If you play they will cancel card and jamm you on your combat cards. So, yes, there is no point in playing such a card in big quantities. You must have other rush actions that actually let you enter combat. And combat cards really takes much space of the deck (Quietus combat particularly) so you have not so many slots for other cards like this one. Y.

ArcheronNightStalker wrote: > If only Bruise and bloat with assamites will be possible .... If we ask reaaaaallllly nicely. :) > But back to the topic: Assamites need: > -better quietus cards Yup. > -re-write first strike rule(strike faster than combat ends) The first strike rule has been just fine for more than a decade. I'd rather it be left alone and a Grapple-style Quietus or Obf-Cel (so the City Gangrel get something) card be made. > -better quietus cards > -more vampires The Assamites have _plenty_ of vampires. Those vampires need something to do - in the form of good Quietus cards and a blueprint for victory. > -better quietus cards > -better blood management Blood management isn't a problem for them. - Ben Peal

On Aug 30, 9:15 am, benp...@gmail.com wrote: > The first strike rule has been just fine for more than a decade. > I'd rather it be left alone and a Grapple-style Quietus or Obf-Cel (so > the City Gangrel get something) card be made. I don't have strong feelings either way about whether it should be a card or a tweak to FS. But I will say that calling FS "just fine for more than a decade" is odd. Unless by just fine you mean "almost completely unused because it sucks so much." > Blood management isn't a problem for them. Agreed. -- David Cherryholmes

[ quoted text not captured ] Please may the powers that be take note of this balanced card. It is in no way broken. Print this crd and I will sending blessings to all your first born.. Really!!! Thetmes on 5 blood, hunts with Leech, plays succulent vitae, gains 2 blood, untaps. Thetmes on 7 rushes vamp A, pulverises. Burns Leech to untap. Thetmes has 5 blood due to hitback. Thetmes huints with Leech, plays succulent...... Dear lord in heaven print this damn card, it will make Tariq eats the world look like kiddies eating ice cream!!!!!!!!!!! Did I say please?

On Aug 30, 4:10 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 30, 1:10 am, AcheronNightStal...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On 29 Sie, 23:36, benp...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Jyhad wrote: > > > > Overall, the Assamites would be better off with either a Bounce or > > > > bleed fails reaction. > > > > "Strategy X, but with bounce" doesn't strike me as particularly > > > interesting. Fight-Bloat would be very different archetype to add to > > > the game, and is much more in flavor. > > > > > Unless of course, they have a means to bloat really well. And at this time, they don't. > > > > If you're a fight deck, sure. However, Amaravati breed-boon is > > > highly effective for bloat. Still, it's another star player deck and > > > it isn't what the Assamite fans are looking for. > > > > - Ben Peal > > > If only Bruise and bloat with assamites will be possible .... > > > But back to the topic: Assamites need: > > -better quietus cards > > -re-write first strike rule(strike faster than combat ends) > > -better quietus cards > > -more vampires > > -better quietus cards > > -better blood management > > > Leech > > Action > > +1 stealth hunt action.If this hunt is successful, the acting vampire > > untaps. > > qui:move 1 blood to this vampire from the blood bank. > > QUI:as above, and put the card on the vampire. The vampire may burn > > this card to untap. A vampire can have only 1 Leech. > > Please may the powers that be take note of this balanced card. It is > in no way broken. Print this crd and I will sending blessings to all > your first born.. Really!!! > > Thetmes on 5 blood, hunts with Leech, plays succulent vitae, gains 2 > blood, untaps. Thetmes on 7 rushes vamp A, pulverises. Burns Leech to > untap. Thetmes has 5 blood due to hitback. Thetmes huints with Leech, > plays succulent...... Then realizes he can't play the same action card (Leech) this turn? witness1

[ quoted text not captured ] > Dear lord in heaven print this damn card, it will make Tariq eats the > world look like kiddies eating ice cream!!!!!!!!!!! > > Did I say please? Thetmes would not be able to use "Leech" more than once per turn. Cannot repeat action card under NRA. John P.

On Aug 29, 4:10 pm, AcheronNightStal...@gmail.com wrote: > Leech > Action > +1 stealth hunt action.If this hunt is successful, the acting vampire > untaps. > qui:move 1 blood to this vampire from the blood bank. > QUI:as above, and put the card on the vampire. The vampire may burn > this card to untap. A vampire can have only 1 Leech. This card seems really familiar...oh yeah, Zillah's Tears. A really hyped, super-uber Zillah's Tears....but the same mechanic. Vegas gNat