[Deck] Am I Broken?

19 messages from 12 participants · 08 December 2002 – 11 December 2002
original thread on Google Groups

Rawlings family#

08 December 2002, 10:03

As promised, really quickly thrown together and not tested, but this is about the worst case of Rotschreck abuse that I could think of. The question is, is it, after some tweaking, worthy enough to win tournaments with? Thoughts? Oh, and if anyone thinks they have a worse Rotschreck deck concept, feel free to share. Deck Name: Broken! Created By: Derek Rawlings Description: Intercept your prey (with Eagle's Sight if necessary), use Rötschreck to cut down them down, then use deadly bleeds to off him. Grave rob with impunity. Repeat as needed. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 5.92) ---------------------------------------------- 1 Hannigan AUS dom THA 5, Tremere Antitribu 1 Merrill Molitor aus dom THA 5, Tremere 1 Aisling Sturbridge AUS dom THA 5, Tremere 1 Justine AUS DOM obf THA 8, Tremere, Primogen 1 Muaziz aus dom for THA 7, Tremere 1 Richard Tauber AUS tha 4, Tremere Antitribu 1 Blythe Candeleria aus THA 3, Tremere 1 Kij Dansky AUS DOM obt THA 8, Tremere Antitribu, Priscus 2 Reverend Blackwood DOM obf THA 6, Tremere Antitribu, Bishop 1 Kurt Strauss aus DOM tha 5, Tremere Antitribu 1 Lazarus AUS cel DOM pot THA 9, Tremere, Primogen Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (18 cards) 2 Blood Doll 1 Millicent Smith, Puritan Vampire Hunter 15 Rotschreck Action (18 cards) 4 Govern the Unaligned 10 Graverobbing 2 Pulse of the Canaille 2 Rutor's Hand Action Modifier (6 cards) 3 Conditioning 3 Foreshadowing Destruction Reaction (27 cards) 5 Deflection 8 Eagle's Sight 2 Enhanced Senses 2 My Enemy's Enemy 2 Precognition 2 Spirit's Touch 2 Telepathic Misdirection 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (19 cards) 15 Burst of Sunlight 4 Theft of Vitae Retainer (1 cards) 1 Mr. Winthrop Equipment (1 cards) 1 Sport Bike This deck was last saved at 1:01:37 AM on 08/12/2002

arden mcbathan#

08 December 2002, 15:31

Thomas Pichler#

08 December 2002, 15:35

Rawlings family wrote: > > As promised, really quickly thrown together and not tested, but this is > about the worst case of Rotschreck abuse that I could think of. The > question is, is it, after some tweaking, worthy enough to win > tournaments with? > > Thoughts? Oh, and if anyone thinks they have a worse Rotschreck deck > concept, feel free to share. > You're not going to kill a S&B prey. Not enough intercept to block +2 stealth forward D actions more than two or three times a game, and no real combat ability when you're actiong. I'm not sure it could actually kill a prey if having to defend against any predator but S&B. Doubt it. A deck with fewer Rötschrecks and more of a plan what else it does should be better 9 times out of 10, I figure. Thomas

Derek Ray#

08 December 2002, 16:43

In message <PVDI9.27953$77.25...@news2.telusplanet.net>, "Rawlings family" <raw...@telus.net> mumbled something about: >As promised, really quickly thrown together and not tested, but this is >about the worst case of Rotschreck abuse that I could think of. The >question is, is it, after some tweaking, worthy enough to win tournaments >with? Not really. Inherent flaws with Rotschreck (that the anti-Rotschreck people don't think of when they post the rants) cut this one off at the knees. It's nasty, I'm sure, but ... >Created By: Derek Rawlings >Description: Intercept your prey (with Eagle's Sight if necessary), use >Rötschreck to cut down them down, then use deadly bleeds to off him. Grave >rob with impunity. Repeat as needed. > >Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 5.92) >---------------------------------------------- Going with a group 2-3 combo here will give you more AUS/THA. >1 Hannigan AUS dom THA 5, Tremere Antitribu 2 copies of this guy. >1 Merrill Molitor aus dom THA 5, Tremere Sack him for Cohn Rose (for group 3 compatibility); same disciplines, but no special. >1 Aisling Sturbridge AUS dom THA 5, Tremere And 2 copies of her. >1 Justine AUS DOM obf THA 8, Tremere, Primogen Take her out to make room for a Hannigan. >1 Muaziz aus dom for THA 7, Tremere >1 Richard Tauber AUS tha 4, Tremere Antitribu >1 Blythe Candeleria aus THA 3, Tremere >1 Kij Dansky AUS DOM obt THA 8, Tremere Antitribu, Priscus >2 Reverend Blackwood DOM obf THA 6, Tremere Antitribu, Bishop This is your worst vamp, with no AUS and a special that is irrelevant since the damage never happens. Throw him out for 2 copies of Carna, easily your best vamp for a deck like this. >1 Kurt Strauss aus DOM tha 5, Tremere Antitribu >1 Lazarus AUS cel DOM pot THA 9, Tremere, Primogen And replace this vamp with the other Aisling. >Library: (90 cards) >------------------- >Master (18 cards) >2 Blood Doll >1 Millicent Smith, Puritan Vampire Hunter >15 Rotschreck Parthenon, Barrens, 2 Suddens, and 3 less Rotschrecks. >Action (18 cards) >4 Govern the Unaligned >10 Graverobbing First problem. Consider the timing of everything; you intercept your prey and then he rescues the vamp from torpor immediately, leaving you no opportunity to Grave Rob the poor guy. Second problem; you have no stealth on your Grave Robbing, so it won't succeed. I'd cut this down to 4-6. After the first time you Grave Rob your prey, the rest of the table will rescue his vamps for him (making him pay the cost) just so you don't sweep with someone else's vamps. >2 Pulse of the Canaille >2 Rutor's Hand > >Action Modifier (6 cards) >3 Conditioning >3 Foreshadowing Destruction (shrug) Look, bleed cards! Since I just peed all over the superior DOM vampires up above, I suggest using all Conditionings here. The ones you have left will likely be remaining untapped (only 4 Wakes?!), so you won't be able to use Carna to chuck around a bleed of 4. >Reaction (27 cards) >5 Deflection >8 Eagle's Sight >2 Enhanced Senses >2 My Enemy's Enemy >2 Precognition >2 Spirit's Touch >2 Telepathic Misdirection >4 Wake with Evening's Freshness You're intercept light here, meaning you REALLY need Carna. Since you have spare slots from above, I would add two more Eagle's Sight, two more Enhanced Senses, replace both Precognition with Spirit's Touch, and replace both Telepathic Misdirection with Spirit's Touch. You have to maneuver; if you are Grappled, you can't Rotschreck. This is going to be a problem for you anyway, because POT decks won't let you play Spirit's Touch, but there's one primary weakness right now. You are also Wake-light, which is worrisome. You should certainly swap the first 4 Wakes for Forced Awakening (since you're an intercept deck, you can expect to block), and maybe swap some of the Deflections for Forced Awakening as well (you ARE an intercept deck). >Combat (19 cards) >15 Burst of Sunlight >4 Theft of Vitae You have no defense for after you've played your first Rotschreck. This will cause immediate, tragic difficulty. The extra maneuvers I just gave you with Spirit's Touch will work well, but I suggest dropping down to 12 Burst and up to 8 Theft. >Retainer (1 cards) >1 Mr. Winthrop > >Equipment (1 cards) >1 Sport Bike Anyone worth their salt won't let you get either of these. Toss Mr. Winthrop; he's contestable and free. The Sport Bike, oddly enough, might be something your predator lets you have because of the 1 pool cost; and if you DO get it, you don't have to worry about someone contesting it away from you later (or Far Masterying it). Could someone win with this? Anything's possible. Is it enough to show Rotschreck as broken? No. If anything, it paints up the weaknesses in a big old limelight. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

Peter D Bakija#

08 December 2002, 17:06

Rawlings family wrote: > As promised, really quickly thrown together and not tested, but this is > about the worst case of Rotschreck abuse that I could think of. The > question is, is it, after some tweaking, worthy enough to win tournaments > with? I doubt it. It certainly looks pretty funny, and possibly even effective, but it has incredibly limited pool gain and it's ability to reliably torporize minions is limited to one per turn around the table, it doesn't have enough intercept (or untap) to realiably stop even moderate stealth, and it has limited forward momentum (6 bleed increase cards?). This deck will be really good at sending one minion to torpor once around the table, while getting savaged by bleeds or combat--what does this deck do against rush? It has no manuvers, it can't play Burst if Immortally Grappled. It has limited defense against heavy bleeds (5 Deflections and middling intercept). All in all, a possibly sometimes useful deck. I hardly see it dominating a tournament, let alone even winning much. How is this going to be any more effective than: A) a standard IG Rush deck (which can torporize 3-4 minions a turn). B) a standard Tremere intercept/burn deck (which can generally torporized more than 1 minion a turn). Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

Rawlings family#

08 December 2002, 22:08

I made this deck more as an example than anything else. Someone made the assertion that Rotschreck was broken, other people said it's not. This deck was intended (after some tweaking) to be the worst possible Rotschreck deck you could make. It was really to prove that even with the most vile Rotschreck creation you could make, it's still not going to be any more broken then say a rush deck, which can be many times more efficient (torp 2 or more vamps in a turn). Anyways, I think my point is proven. Derek

Peter D Bakija#

08 December 2002, 22:58

Rawlings family wrote: > I made this deck more as an example than anything else. Someone made the > assertion that Rotschreck was broken, other people said it's not. This deck > was intended (after some tweaking) to be the worst possible Rotschreck deck > you could make. Even then, I'm not seeing it. I think the most effective deck that is going to get use of Rotschreck is the Malkavian OOT Rush deck--that at least has some legs, but is fragile and difficult to pull off. > > It was really to prove that even with the most vile Rotschreck creation you > could make, it's still not going to be any more broken then say a rush deck, > which can be many times more efficient (torp 2 or more vamps in a turn). Clearly. If your point was to make a deck that might be kind of scary with Rotschreck, yet still isn't all that hot, the deck in question is a pretty good example. Again, the deck certainly looks entertaining, and might even do ok, but has huge gaping holes (if it sits next to an IG rush deck, it is complete meat. If it sits next to a standard S+B deck, it is complete meat. If it sits next to a weenie Pre deck, it is complete meat...) > > Anyways, I think my point is proven. I'm sure there is a more effective Rotschreck deck out there. And even then, it isn't going to be that handy :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

legbiter#

09 December 2002, 14:19

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<BA192AAE.A9B9%PD...@bigplanet.com>... > Rawlings family wrote: > > > I made this deck more as an example than anything else. Someone made the > > assertion that Rotschreck was broken, other people said it's not. This deck > > was intended (after some tweaking) to be the worst possible Rotschreck deck > > you could make. > > Even then, I'm not seeing it. I think the most effective deck that is going > to get use of Rotschreck is the Malkavian OOT Rush deck--that at least has > some legs, but is fragile and difficult to pull off. > > > > It was really to prove that even with the most vile Rotschreck creation you > > could make, it's still not going to be any more broken then say a rush deck, > > which can be many times more efficient (torp 2 or more vamps in a turn). > > Clearly. If your point was to make a deck that might be kind of scary with > Rotschreck, yet still isn't all that hot, the deck in question is a pretty > good example. Again, the deck certainly looks entertaining, and might even > do ok, but has huge gaping holes (if it sits next to an IG rush deck, it is > complete meat. If it sits next to a standard S+B deck, it is complete meat. > If it sits next to a weenie Pre deck, it is complete meat...) > > > > > Anyways, I think my point is proven. > > I'm sure there is a more effective Rotschreck deck out there. And even then, > it isn't going to be that handy :-) i think i was the first person to talk about the Malkavian OOT rush deck, AEONS ago, but i personally have never managed better than second in a tournament with one. Again AFAIK, only Matthew Green has actually WON a tournament with such a deck, and here it is, again. i think Matthew's deck very nicely reinforces the point made by several contributors above that BY ITSELF Rotshreck is a flashy trick card, and it's not going to win you a game without a LOT of backup. Deck Name: Sandwich of the month 2 Leather Jacket Sengir Dagger Ivory Bow Muddled Vamp Hunter 2 Graverobbing 4 Deflection Foreshadowing destruction 2 Conditioning 6 My enemy's enemy 2 Telepathic vote counting 3 Malkavian rider clause 2 Bums rush 3 Behind you 6 Lost in crowds 3 Forgotten Labyrinthe 2 Cloak the gathering 3 Flesh of marble 2 Bone Spur Body Flare 2 Dramatic Upheaval Kindred restructure 4 KRC 2 Con Ag Malkavian justicar Parity shift 3 WWEF 2 Forced awakening 2 Blood Doll Legendary vampire Dreams 2 Elysium 4 Rotschreck 5 Madness network 2 Protean 2 Vast Wealth Crypt [avg = 5.33]: Watenda Zoe Aleph 2 Victoria 2 Zebulon Ozmo 2 Gilbert Duane 2 Gregor Anderson

Jeff Kuta#

09 December 2002, 22:01

"Rawlings family" <raw...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<PVDI9.27953$77.25...@news2.telusplanet.net>... > As promised, really quickly thrown together and not tested, but this is > about the worst case of Rotschreck abuse that I could think of. The > question is, is it, after some tweaking, worthy enough to win tournaments > with? > > Deck Name: Broken! > Created By: Derek Rawlings > Description: Intercept your prey (with Eagle's Sight if necessary), use > Rötschreck to cut down them down, then use deadly bleeds to off him. Grave > rob with impunity. Repeat as needed. > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 5.92) > ---------------------------------------------- > 1 Hannigan AUS dom THA 5, Tremere Antitribu > 1 Merrill Molitor aus dom THA 5, Tremere > 1 Aisling Sturbridge AUS dom THA 5, Tremere > 1 Justine AUS DOM obf THA 8, Tremere, Primogen > 1 Muaziz aus dom for THA 7, Tremere > 1 Richard Tauber AUS tha 4, Tremere Antitribu > 1 Blythe Candeleria aus THA 3, Tremere > 1 Kij Dansky AUS DOM obt THA 8, Tremere Antitribu, Priscus > 2 Reverend Blackwood DOM obf THA 6, Tremere Antitribu, Bishop > 1 Kurt Strauss aus DOM tha 5, Tremere Antitribu > 1 Lazarus AUS cel DOM pot THA 9, Tremere, Primogen I don't like the crypt all that much. I'd go with: 1 Etrius 2 Anastazdi 2 Kij Dansky 3 Muaziz 2 Carna 2 Hannigan 2 Aisling > Library: (90 cards) > ------------------- > Master (18 cards) > 2 Blood Doll > 1 Millicent Smith, Puritan Vampire Hunter > 15 Rotschreck This is a bit excessive. I bet you could get similar results with 8-10 Rotschreck, which would still qualify as a Rotschreck deck IMO. Add some more blood management in place of the Rots. Also one Auspex master to be sure (for Muaziz). Perhaps an intercept location or two. Wassershloss Anif is also fun for this sort of deck. > Action (18 cards) > 4 Govern the Unaligned > 10 Graverobbing > 2 Pulse of the Canaille > 2 Rutor's Hand More Governs, less Graverobs. You don't need the Dom modifiers if you've already taken your prey's minions into torpor. Plus, with the bigger voting vampires, bloating can help tremendously. 1-2 Magic of the Smith might be nice and perhaps Far Mastery. Probably want a couple Nose of the Hound so you can bring the combat when necessary. > Action Modifier (6 cards) > 3 Conditioning > 3 Foreshadowing Destruction > > Reaction (27 cards) > 5 Deflection > 8 Eagle's Sight > 2 Enhanced Senses > 2 My Enemy's Enemy > 2 Precognition > 2 Spirit's Touch > 2 Telepathic Misdirection > 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness > > Combat (19 cards) > 15 Burst of Sunlight > 4 Theft of Vitae Too much intercept, not enough standard combat. You've made a "trick" deck which isn't going to win all that much, but a HEALTHY does of Rotschreck can really boost the power of Tremere intercept. Apportations, and Walk of Flames are all good here. Could even get fancy with Shotguns and Amaranths. I'd pull 3-5 Reactions and 7-8 Bursts. You won't need as much bounce because you want to fight. Only a supremely heavy stealth deck will get past you. If you pack enough permanent intercept you won't have to worry much. > Equipment (1 cards) > 1 Sport Bike You're missing the ever critical Ivory Bow in this deck. :) A Rowan Ring and/or Sengir Dagger might not be out of place either. I'll have to see how many Rotshrecks I have (I think only 4 or 5) before putting this monster together. Time to inspire some table hate. ;)

Joscha Duell#

10 December 2002, 10:47

To counter the IG I use Swallowed by the Night and Flamethrowers (until now only Improvised, but I fear that's too fragile). I like most the combination of Anatole with Eagle's Sight, +1 Intercept really rocks. But I guess, it is very difficult to win a (bigger) tournament with that deck-type. Cheers, Joscha

Chris, Waffle King of Milwaukee#

10 December 2002, 17:52

the deck i was using in the storylines tourney worked fairly well, but i think that was more because it wasnae really /dependent/ on the Rotschrecks. they were mainly in there to target a specific problem vampire so that i could pull off a good bleed or annoyance (Mind of Child) action. it was nice to be able to be sure that a particular blocker, or more specifically bouncer wasnae harassing me. if the vampire could prevent the flame.damage i'd coma, and if they were runners i could rotschreck. 'course they could always dodge, but we don't seem to see that too much up here. and peter is right when he says that IG eats this deck up. granted, i'd have manouvers...but they weren't (and couldn't be hoped to be) in my hand /every/ time i'd be rushed. another problem i had was the thau. card that doesnae allow weapon strikes and cannae be prevented (not that there was prevent in my deck), blood fury or rage or something. however, it should be noted that there's just a special feeling about seeing the face of a player who has grown complacent in his ability to S:CE. we have a player here who i swear his every other word is 'Majesty' (y'gotta say it with a knowing sneer, don'cha know?), and giving one of his big vamps (like Alexandria) a good smack with rotschreck is just a damn good time *evil grin* chris, waffle king of milwaukee Prince of Milwaukee ---Muddled Vampire Hunter would like to take a +1 stealth action to poke Menshaka really hard, repeatedly. He'll use the rush from the Eye. -Hazimel Ann Arbor Tourney

Darky#

11 December 2002, 00:00

<snip the useful bit> > ---Muddled Vampire Hunter would like to take a +1 stealth action to > poke Menshaka really hard, repeatedly. He'll use the rush from the > Eye. > -Hazimel Ann Arbor Tourney how was the eye put on an ally? :) -Bram Vink

Halcyan 2#

11 December 2002, 04:24

>> ---Muddled Vampire Hunter would like to take a +1 stealth action to >> poke Menshaka really hard, repeatedly. He'll use the rush from the >> Eye. >> -Hazimel Ann Arbor Tourney > >how was the eye put on an ally? :) Vampire with the Eye is in torpor. The Succubus Club is used to trade the Eye away to another Methusaleh who then places it on the Muddled Vampire Hunter. Another way for a specific ally to get it is that Tutu can steal the Eye with his special (provided the conditions exist). Halcyan 2

arden mcbathan#

11 December 2002, 14:13

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021210222452...@mb-fl.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] they don't since the eye states that it cannot be stolen or transferred. don't know if that rules out succubus club, as it is taken by anoter methuselah who then puts it on one of his minions... > Halcyan 2

LSJ#

11 December 2002, 14:38

[ quoted text not captured ] It does indeed rule out Succubus Club. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Chris, Waffle King of Milwaukee#

11 December 2002, 16:03

> > > >how was the eye put on an ally? :) > *chris wonders why this point hadnae occured to him and checks the storyline rules again* *chris turns a shaking mixture of red and bone white, indicating extreme and high level embarassment* oh my bleeding stars and garters...ready freaking /vampire/. oh cripes. *chris makes an apology and promptly dies of shame* chris, waffle king of milwaukee ---there's foolishness, damned foolishness, and then foolishness that goes quite around the bend and into blatant stupidity

Halcyan 2#

11 December 2002, 20:24

>> Vampire with the Eye is in torpor. The Succubus Club is used to trade the >Eye >> away to another Methusaleh who then places it on the Muddled Vampire >Hunter. >> >> Another way for a specific ally to get it is that Tutu can steal the Eye >with >> his special (provided the conditions exist). > >they don't since the eye states that it cannot be stolen or >transferred. don't know if that rules out succubus club, as it is >taken by anoter methuselah who then puts it on one of his minions... "While the bearer is *ready*, this equipment cannot be transferred, moved or stolen." (Emphasis mine). That's why I stated the vampire with the Eye was in torpor. Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2#

11 December 2002, 20:27

>> > Vampire with the Eye is in torpor. The Succubus Club is used to trade the >Eye >> > away to another Methusaleh who then places it on the Muddled Vampire >Hunter. >> > >> > Another way for a specific ally to get it is that Tutu can steal the Eye >with >> > his special (provided the conditions exist). >> >> they don't since the eye states that it cannot be stolen or >> transferred. don't know if that rules out succubus club, as it is >> taken by anoter methuselah who then puts it on one of his minions... > >It does indeed rule out Succubus Club. ??? Succubus Club [Jyhad, V:TES, CE] Cardtype: Master Master: unique location. During your untap phase, you may tap this card to trade with a Methuselah who agrees to trade. You may trade pool and cards from your hand and cards you control. The trade cannot result in either Methuselah have fewer cards in hand than his or her hand size. Any additional terms can be established, but none are enforced by the rules. Eye of Hazimel Type(s): Equipment Pool Cost: 3 Artist(s): Kieran Yanner Set(s): *Promotional Unique Equipment The minion with this equipment gets +1 bleed and +1 strength. This minion may enter combat with any minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action. If this minion is a vampire, he or she has superior Chimerstry and superior Potence, and combat cards cost this vampire one less blood to play. While the bearer is ready, this equipment cannot be transferred, moved or stolen. If this equipment is burned, this minion takes 5 unpreventable damage. During your untap phase, burn 1 pool or burn this equipment. Card text of Eye of Hazimel indicates it cannot be transferred, moved, or stolen *while the bearer is ready*. In my example, I specifically stated that the vampire with the Eye is in torpor, thus there is nothing to prohibit you from exhanging control of the Eye with the Succubus Club, right? Halcyan 2

LSJ#

11 December 2002, 20:31

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Card text of Eye of Hazimel indicates it cannot be transferred, moved, or > stolen *while the bearer is ready*. In my example, I specifically stated that > the vampire with the Eye is in torpor, thus there is nothing to prohibit you > from exhanging control of the Eye with the Succubus Club, right? Missed the torpor part, sorry. You are correct. Succubus Club would suffice in that case. [ quoted text not captured ]