Taking the Skin: Minion Question

Taking the Skin: Minion Type: Action Modifier/Combat Requires: Abombwe [abo] [REFLEX] Cancel a frenzy card played on this vampire as it is played. [abo] Skin. Play when this vampire burns a minion. Put this card on this vampire and untap him or her. This vampire may bleed an additional time this turn and gets +1 bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. Burn this card during your discard phase. A minion can have only one skin. Rarity: EK:R Ok. Here are two questions. 1. If I block a minion and burns it in combat. Does this card untap you, and make you able to bleed during another Meths minion phase? 2. If I have a retainer on me that I may burn. Is that enough to trigger TtS:M? Example: If I bleed and burn Masquer to give any minion +1 int. Can I play TtS:M. Or burn Ghoul Escort? Or may I use if if I burn the last blood on Crypt's Sons? Thinking to exploit this card if it is possible.

On Sep 18, 1:51 pm, Baaliprimogen <vegardki...@gmail.com> wrote: > 2. If I have a retainer on me that I may burn. Is that enough to > trigger TtS:M? Example: If I bleed and burn Masquer to give any minion > +1 int. Can I play TtS:M. Or burn Ghoul Escort? Or may I use if if I > burn the last blood on Crypt's Sons? Retainers aren't minions. -John Flournoy

On Sep 18, 2:51 pm, Baaliprimogen <vegardki...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ok. Here are two questions. > 1. If I block a minion and burns it in combat. Does this card untap > you, and make you able to bleed during another Meths minion phase? Yes to the first part, no to the second - it, itself, doesn't let you take an out-of-turn action. (However, if you had a Malk with Abombwe and an Enkil Cog, and Madness Network in play, that Malkavian could block, burn a minion, play Taking the Skin, untap, bleed with Madness Network, untap somehow, and bleed again with Enkil Cog.) > 2. If I have a retainer on me that I may burn. Is that enough to > trigger TtS:M? Example: If I bleed and burn Masquer to give any minion > +1 int. Can I play TtS:M. Or burn Ghoul Escort? Or may I use if if I > burn the last blood on Crypt's Sons? A retainer isn't a minion. No. > Thinking to exploit this card if it is possible. Good luck. :-) - D.J.

[ quoted text not captured ] Retainers are not minions. It would work w/ Keystone Kine (obf) Requires an anarch. [cel] and/or [nec] and/or [obf] (D) Bleed. If using [cel], he or she gains 1 blood. If using [nec], the bleed is at +1 bleed. If using [obf] and this action is successful, you may burn an ally controlled by your prey whose cost is not greater than the bleed amount. Matt

Thanks. 1. Thank you for clarifying. 2. Hum. I forgot about that. Well, other thing then. If I recruit a War Ghoul. Does it kick in? May I take a action, like Horseshoes, on my own ally?

On Sep 18, 12:59 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sep 18, 12:23 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] > > group 2-3 !gangrel w/ Absimiliard`s Army > > Deck Name: !Gangrel Anarch > Created By: > Description: Bleed and gain 2 blood; probably add bleed retainers > lap tops and Heidelberg > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 4, Max: 26, Avg: 3.91) > --------------------------------------------- > 1 Wren cel obf pro 4 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Maria Stone cel obf pro FOR 5 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Skryta Zyleta obf pot pro CEL 5 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Darrel Boyce CEL OBF PRO 6 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Harry Reese cel obf FOR PRO 6 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Soldat cel dom obf POT PRO7 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Zachary for pre CEL OBF PRO7 Gangrel > Antitribu > 1 Max Lowell cel obf 3 Gangrel > Antitribu > 4 Anarch Convert 1 Caitiff > > Library: (80 cards) > ------------------- > Master (17 cards) > 8 Capitalist > 4 Bay and Howl > 1 City Gangrel Connections > 1 Twisted Forest > 1 Anarch Railroad > 2 Seattle Committee > > Action (16 cards) > 16 Keystone Kine > > Action Modifier (26 cards) > 8 CrimethInc. > 8 Monkey Wrench > 3 Cloak the Gathering > 3 Domain of Evernight > 2 Faceless Night > 2 Lost in Crowds > > Combat (16 cards) > 8 Claws of the Dead > 4 Flesh of Marble > 4 Form of Mist > > Event (2 cards) > 1 Absimiliard`s Army > 1 Restricted Vitae > > Combo (3 cards) > 3 Swallowed by the Night > > This deck was last saved at 12:51:37 PM on 9/18/2009 What? no Tension? would Tension even work (if the ally is burned it is removed from the game)? Abs army requires 1 other Gehenna card...you are ONLY packing 1 other Gehenna card...bad odds my friend! No Fortschritt? Definitely add 1 Frontal Assault! What are you going to do after you bleed, gain a blood from Capitalist and untap with CrimethInc...suck your thumb? you are slipping Matt! :-) Vegas gNat

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, no, and no. Recruiting a War Ghoul isn't a D action, and a Horseshoes (or similar) directed at your own minion becomes undirected. There's no way to burn your own stuff while it's still under your control and have it trigger Red List trophies. - D.J.

[ quoted text not captured ] Lost sight of the question there, sorry. If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry for the confusion. - D.J.

DJ wrote: > Lost sight of the question there, sorry. > > If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War > Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry > for the confusion. You were right the first time. The rules regarding trophies are not limited to them; they simply explicate what it means to burn a minion. You count as having done so if it occurs in combat, or as the result of a directed action. Any other means of burning a minion triggers neither Trophies nor TtS:M. Also, could we all avoid posting deck lists in rules question threads? Jesse

On Sep 19, 5:22 pm, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > DJ wrote: > > If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War > > Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry > > for the confusion. > > You were right the first time. The rules regarding trophies are not > limited to them; they simply explicate what it means to burn a minion. > You count as having done so if it occurs in combat, or as the result > of a directed action. Any other means of burning a minion triggers > neither Trophies nor TtS:M. I'm not at all sure on that. I mean, if Monty Coven diablerizes a titled minion on your own team, he's taking an undirected action, but I can't see how that doesn't count as him burning a titled vampire for purposes of his special... LSJ? > Also, could we all avoid posting deck lists in rules question threads? This, however, I can definitely agree with... it makes later searches more problematic, too. - D.J.

D.J. wrote: > On Sep 19, 5:22 pm, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: >> DJ wrote: >>> If you mean "can I play Taking the Skin: Minion" when I recruit a War >>> Ghoul or Horseshoes my own ally, then I think Wedge is right. Sorry >>> for the confusion. >> You were right the first time. The rules regarding trophies are not >> limited to them; they simply explicate what it means to burn a minion. >> You count as having done so if it occurs in combat, or as the result >> of a directed action. Any other means of burning a minion triggers >> neither Trophies nor TtS:M. > > I'm not at all sure on that. I mean, if Monty Coven diablerizes a > titled minion on your own team, he's taking an undirected action, but > I can't see how that doesn't count as him burning a titled vampire for > purposes of his special... LSJ? Monty's special makes no mention of directed. Neither does Taking the Skin: Minion. Each of these would be satisfied with an undirected burn, like diablerizing a "teammate". Unlike Trophies, whose rules restrict which burnings the trophy will notice. And note that the minion recruiting a War Ghoul doesn't burn anything; xe merely puts the War Ghoul in play. The War Ghoul entering play burns an ally or retainer. But the War Ghoul isn't the acting minion on the action to recruit her, so she cannot play action modifiers. Similarly, if Brigitte Gebauer loses her last life after gifting bleed, that doesn't count as the acting minion burning her (nor the blocking minion burning her, for that matter).

LSJ wrote: > Unlike Trophies, whose rules restrict which burnings the trophy will notice. So what exactly is the definition of "burning a minion"? It seems hard to tell the difference between a minion actually being responsible for burning something, and burning something being an incidental effect that occurs during an action. The rule on trophies seemed like it was written to clarify this, but this ruling on Taking the Skin: Minion seems to convolute the question. What about burning a minion with Auto- De-Fe? What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey? How do we tell what counts and what doesn't? Jesse

cthulukitty wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > Unlike Trophies, whose rules restrict which burnings the trophy > will notice. > > So what exactly is the definition of "burning a minion"? That's not a term. It's a description. It defines itself. > It seems hard > to tell the difference between a minion actually being responsible for > burning something, and burning something being an incidental effect > that occurs during an action. The rule on trophies seemed like it was > written to clarify this, No. Just like the rule on diablerie was not written to clarify what it means to play a master: Discipine card. The rule on Trophies specifies when they can be awarded. That is what it was written to do. > but this ruling on Taking the Skin: Minion > seems to convolute the question. It doesn't. It simply follows card text. > What about burning a minion with Auto- > De-Fe? The target minion is burned. > What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in > play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey? Then Bey would burn. > How do we tell what counts and what > doesn't? Card text.

So, regarding Taking the Skin: Minion... On Sep 22, 12:46 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > cthulukitty wrote: > > What about burning a minion with Auto- > > De-Fe? > > The target minion is burned. ... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be played? (Not sure on this one.) > > What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in > > play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey? > > Then Bey would burn. But since the action just put a Gehenna event in play, causing Bey to burn himself, TtS:M cannot be played? (Parallel: War Ghoul.) > > How do we tell what counts and what > > doesn't? > > Card text. What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the burning? I'd have thought it would be clearer, based on whether the effect which caused the burning came from the minion or not, but based on the Julius ruling - that, say, if Julius were in combat with an Ex Nihilo'd vampire unable to do damage, and Julius set off his Bomb and blew himself up, it still counts as the Ex Nihilo'd vampire burning him despite the complete passivity of the Ex Nihilo'd vampire in the situation in question - I can't actually tell anymore what the standard is. Can we get a clear statement about what criteria cause the game state to regard Minion A as having burned Minion B? 'Cause "card text" alone leaves too many vague points; clarification on what card text should be communicating is needed. - D.J.

D.J. <dj...@comcast.net> wrote: > So, regarding Taking the Skin: Minion... > On Sep 22, 12:46�pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > cthulukitty wrote: > > > What about burning a minion with Auto- > > > De-Fe? > > > > The target minion is burned. > ... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action > itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be > played? (Not sure on this one.) Correct. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c160a3e36236e260

D.J. wrote: > So, regarding Taking the Skin: Minion... > > On Sep 22, 12:46 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> cthulukitty wrote: >>> What about burning a minion with Auto- >>> De-Fe? >> The target minion is burned. > > ... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action > itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be > played? (Not sure on this one.) Card text: "that vampire's controller burns that vampire". So Taking the Skin: Minion cannot be played. >>> What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in >>> play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey? >> Then Bey would burn. > > But since the action just put a Gehenna event in play, causing Bey to > burn himself, TtS:M cannot be played? (Parallel: War Ghoul.) Correct. >>> How do we tell what counts and what >>> doesn't? >> Card text. > > What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the > burning? Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is considered burned by the opposing minion. > I'd have thought it would be clearer, based on whether the > effect which caused the burning came from the minion or not, but based > on the Julius ruling - that, say, if Julius were in combat with an Ex > Nihilo'd vampire unable to do damage, and Julius set off his Bomb and > blew himself up, it still counts as the Ex Nihilo'd vampire burning > him despite the complete passivity of the Ex Nihilo'd vampire in the > situation in question - I can't actually tell anymore what the > standard is. Being in combat is not being completely passive. > Can we get a clear statement about what criteria cause > the game state to regard Minion A as having burned Minion B? 'Cause > "card text" alone leaves too many vague points; clarification on what > card text should be communicating is needed. If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to address those.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the > > burning? > Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is > considered burned by the opposing minion. > If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to > address those. So, here is a list of the ways in which Minion A can burn Minion B: 1) Minion A takes a (D) action (under the newest definition of (D) actions) that "burns" Minion B explicitly by card text or rule text (i.e. Diablerie). 2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius). 3) Minion B burns as a result of combat with Minion A, regardless of Minion A's activity in that combat. 4) Minion A (who is a vampire) blocks the "Leave Torpor" action of Minion B (who is a vampire) and chooses to diablerize. 5) Some non-action effect specifically says "(A minion) burns (another minion)". Am I missing anything?

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > 2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause > Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius). ...and by "or on empty Julius", I meant "or Shadow Twin on empty Julius", of course.

Jozxyqk wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>> What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the >>> burning? > >> Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is >> considered burned by the opposing minion. > >> If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to >> address those. > > So, here is a list of the ways in which Minion A can burn Minion B: > > 1) Minion A takes a (D) action (under the newest definition of (D) actions) that > "burns" Minion B explicitly by card text or rule text (i.e. Diablerie). 1) Minion a plays an effect which says "burn minion". Like diablerie (directed action, undirected action, Amaranth or any other diablerie). Or other "burn minion" effects, like Abomination, Akhenaten, Amam, Ambulance, Ankou, Cobra Fangs. Note that, as for determining directedness, effects of referendums are not counted here. In these cases, the minion's effect is to simply call the referendum. (See ruling Josh cited earlier) > 2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause > Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius). 2) Inflicting damage on a minion the handling of which burns the minion (via aggravated damage for vampires or loss of life for allies), or simply removing all the life from an ally (damage-related or not). > 3) Minion B burns as a result of combat with Minion A, regardless of Minion A's > activity in that combat. 3) Exactly. > 4) Minion A (who is a vampire) blocks the "Leave Torpor" action of Minion B (who > is a vampire) and chooses to diablerize. Sure. But I'd put this under 1) above. Same for a Banshee Ironwail bearer blocking an ally with one life. > 5) Some non-action effect specifically says "(A minion) burns (another minion)". Also covered by 1) if you don't bother restricting 1) to "action". :-)