Shackles of Enkindu question (2003)

Ok, here's the question... I made a gangrel temptation deck... (Sadly, it works well... I hate temptations... Too powerful IMHO...) If the Gangrel that equips the shackles, puts it on a vampire... can he take it back? That is if I tempted the vamp, and gain control of him, and take an action to re-equip it... He does 'Control' it... Or once it's used to shackle a minion, it'll forever be 2 blood-burner? How about if I Heidelberg Castle it back to the gangrel that equiped it?

Kulaid wrote: > I made a gangrel temptation deck... (Sadly, it works well... I hate > temptations... Too powerful IMHO...) With allt he Gangrel with Serpentis? There is, umm, Mirembe Kabada and, umm, yeah, I got nothing. Temptation is certainly handy in a FoS deck that spends a lot of time and effort stealing vampires, but as it stands, Temptation has zero stealth and works very slowly--on even a mid capacity vampire who can keep some blood, (5?) you'll get control of that vampire one time in 9 turns. And what are you going to do with the vampire you steal if it doesn't have your disciplines already? Sure, I could see Temptation being handy occasionally, but too powerful, I'm not really seeing it. Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<BA3B8946.B298%PD...@bigplanet.com>... > Kulaid wrote: > > > I made a gangrel temptation deck... (Sadly, it works well... I hate > > temptations... Too powerful IMHO...) > > With allt he Gangrel with Serpentis? There is, umm, Mirembe Kabada and, umm, > yeah, I got nothing. > > Temptation is certainly handy in a FoS deck that spends a lot of time and > effort stealing vampires, but as it stands, Temptation has zero stealth and protean gives quite some stealth ofcourse, that could handle that quite well... and > works very slowly--on even a mid capacity vampire who can keep some blood, > (5?) you'll get control of that vampire one time in 9 turns. ??? That is apart from the already mentioned Heidelburg ofcourse... And what are > you going to do with the vampire you steal if it doesn't have your > disciplines already? > Uhm, they are already your bloodsupply, and then they can bleed (COmputerhack), diablerize, go for the rack, Montreal, Network, Jack or anything else usefull > Sure, I could see Temptation being handy occasionally, but too powerful, I'm > not really seeing it. > That is another point, and i agree with you here, powerfull, but not too powerfull... W

Kulaid wrote: > > Ok, here's the question... > > I made a gangrel temptation deck... (Sadly, it works well... I hate > temptations... Too powerful IMHO...) > > If the Gangrel that equips the shackles, puts it on a vampire... can > he take it back? Yes. He would then be Shackled himself (and not in a position to Shackle an opponent in combat). http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38F34347.D08C5F96%40white-wolf.com > That is if I tempted the vamp, and gain control of > him, and take an action to re-equip it... He does 'Control' it... > Or once it's used to shackle a minion, it'll forever be 2 > blood-burner? Yes. > How about if I Heidelberg Castle it back to the gangrel > that equiped it? Still Shackled. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Wouter Kuyper wrote: > and protean gives quite some stealth of course, that could handle that > quite well... Sure--but there aren't any Gangrel with Serpentis. Merembe Kabada. That is it. Well, you could count Ian Forrestal, who has everything at inferior. Decks that rely on discipline cards to give your vampires even the basic version of a discipline so your deck can go generally aren't that effective. While this has nothing to do with the general effectiveness of Temptation, I'm deeply confused by the reference to a "good Gangrel Teptation" deck. > ??? That is apart from the already mentioned Heidelburg ofcourse... Heidelburg is certainly useful with this sort of thing, but still, you are getting the vampire in question not that often. Sure, if you Temptation a 1 point Caitif, he'll be yours every turn, but it is a 1 point Caitif. > Uhm, they are already your bloodsupply, and then they can bleed > (COmputerhack), diablerize, go for the rack, Montreal, Network, Jack > or anything else usefull Hardly a huge deal in the long run--if you Temptation a mid size vampire, you'll often spend an action on a vampire that you could do somthing really useful with ('cause they already have the appropriate disciplines) so that in 4 or 5 turns, you can steal them for a turn and take an action to bleed for 1 or steal The Rack. Sure, sometimes, useful. Hardly overpowered. Now a Tremere Serpentis/Thaumaturgy Cryptic Mission/Temptation deck! Now *that* is an idea... [ quoted text not captured ]

. Peal's Law: Even if Shackles of Enkidu worked the way you think it does, it still isn't good. - Ben Peal, Prince of Boston fu...@mindstorm.com

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<BA3B8946.B298%PD...@bigplanet.com>... > Temptation has zero stealth and > works very slowly...And what are > you going to do with the vampire you steal if it doesn't have your > disciplines already? So Peter, can I get your opinion on this deck? http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=66de602a9fe40677&rnum=1

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<BA3C721F.B2B0%PD...@bigplanet.com>... > Wouter Kuyper wrote: > > > and protean gives quite some stealth of course, that could handle that > > quite well... > > Sure--but there aren't any Gangrel with Serpentis. Merembe Kabada. That is > it. Well, you could count Ian Forrestal, who has everything at inferior. > Decks that rely on discipline cards to give your vampires even the basic > version of a discipline so your deck can go generally aren't that effective. > While this has nothing to do with the general effectiveness of Temptation, > I'm deeply confused by the reference to a "good Gangrel Teptation" deck. I am not saying it is easy...but i do remember i saw a deck somewhere that did this kind of things...I read it on the web, so you should be able to find it... I think its name was Mirembe rides again...or something like that... > > > ??? That is apart from the already mentioned Heidelburg ofcourse... > > Heidelburg is certainly useful with this sort of thing, but still, you are > getting the vampire in question not that often. Sure, if you Temptation a 1 > point Caitif, he'll be yours every turn, but it is a 1 point Caitif. > > > Uhm, they are already your bloodsupply, and then they can bleed > > (COmputerhack), diablerize, go for the rack, Montreal, Network, Jack > > or anything else usefull > > Hardly a huge deal in the long run--if you Temptation a mid size vampire, > you'll often spend an action on a vampire that you could do somthing really > useful with ('cause they already have the appropriate disciplines) so that > in 4 or 5 turns, you can steal them for a turn and take an action to bleed > for 1 or steal The Rack. Sure, sometimes, useful. Hardly overpowered. I would never play temptations without Heidelburg, that means that you would be getting at least one vamp each turn, once built up. And i agree that bleeding for 1 isn't that effective, but with computerhacking it becomes interesting in the long run,...if you use them on your prey, he's got one blocker less as well... but still, not overpowered indeed, no argument on that, but very useful. > > Now a Tremere Serpentis/Thaumaturgy Cryptic Mission/Temptation deck! Now > *that* is an idea... I did look into that sometime ago...It didn't attract me that much...but it might be possible... You would loose the bloodsupply angle with Heidelburg though... I am currently taking a look at Matthias in combination with Temptation...Vitaeblock is funny... W

Emmit Svenson wrote: > So Peter, can I get your opinion on this deck? >>Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 10, Max: 23, Avg: 4.00) ---------------------------------------------- 2 Lalitha ser 2, Followers of Set 2 Khalil Anvari pre ser 3, Followers of Set 2 Celine Chevalier obf ser 3, Followers of Set 1 Nepata obf pre ser 4, Followers of Set 1 Sir Marriot D'Urban aus obf PRE ser 5, Followers of Set 1 Dedefra nec obf SER 5, Followers of Set 3 Agaitas AUS for NEC 6, Harbingers of Skulls Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (18 cards) 2 Barrens, The 6 Effective Management 1 Elder Library 1 Fragment of the Book of Nod 2 Information Highway 3 Opium Den 3 Path of Typhon, The>> Why no Khobar Towers and/or Heidelburg Castle? Bothof those are key in getting the most use out of stolen vampires. I'd consider using 2 of each, personally. >>Action (26 cards) 20 Corruption 3 Form of Corruption 3 Temptation>> I'd also probably try to get more corruption in there. >>Action Modifier (6 cards) 6 Venenation>> Kind of an interesting combo action--you might just be better off with more stealth, however. >>Reaction (17 cards) 9 Telepathic Counter 4 Telepathic Misdirection 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness>> Sketchy. You only have 4 vampires with ausepex (and only 3 with AUS). If something happens to Agitas, these cards are pretty much total dead weight. >>Combat (7 cards) 7 Concealed Weapon Equipment (7 cards) 4 Deer Rifle 3 Saturday-Night Special Combo (9 cards) 9 Form of the Serpent>> Reasonable combat defense. Probably stillkind of weak against determined, persistent rush, but it might keep you alive long enough to do well. Looks like a reasonable Corruption deck. It looks like it'll have trouble against consistient +2 intercept (i.e. someone with some Ravens), persistent Rush, and long ranged combat. And a fast bleeding predator. [ quoted text not captured ]

Wouter Kuyper wrote: > I am not saying it is easy...but i do remember i saw a deck somewhere > that did this kind of things...I read it on the web, so you should be > able to find it... > I think its name was Mirembe rides again...or something like that... Yeah, I think I remeber that one. It was kinda funny. My point here, however, is that the original poster (whose name I can't remember--I don't think it was you, Wouter) was claiming that Temptation was too powerful, and using as an example, a Gangrel Temptation deck, which I find difficult to fathom as being even good, let alone an example of how Temptation can be too powerful. And I keep hoping he'll come back and, like, post the deck or something. > I would never play temptations without Heidelburg, that means that you > would be getting at least one vamp each turn, once built up. > And i agree that bleeding for 1 isn't that effective, but with > computerhacking it becomes interesting in the long run,...if you use > them on your prey, he's got one blocker less as well... > but still, not overpowered indeed, no argument on that, but very > useful. Oh, sure--Heidelburg is clearly a key to this sort of thing--temptation them, steal them, heidelburg all their blood off; if they can't fill them up with, like, a 4th or something, you get them every turn (but the original owner still gets to use them too). But as you point out, good. Not super good. > I did look into that sometime ago...It didn't attract me that > much...but it might be possible... > You would loose the bloodsupply angle with Heidelburg though... Yeah, I'm not *really* seeing it as a good idea, especially as the vampire selection is very thin (3 Settites with Tha and Ian Forrestal who can play both cards neccessary) Maybe some sort of combo with the large FoS/Tha vampires, and then lots of little Tremere. Not real good or anything, but possible. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <BA3DC3A7.B2EA%PD...@bigplanet.com>, Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> writes: >Emmit Svenson wrote: >> So Peter, can I get your opinion on this deck? >>>Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 10, Max: 23, Avg: 4.00) >---------------------------------------------- >2 Lalitha ser 2, Followers of Set >2 Khalil Anvari pre ser 3, Followers of Set >2 Celine Chevalier obf ser 3, Followers of Set >1 Nepata obf pre ser 4, Followers of Set >1 Sir Marriot D'Urban aus obf PRE ser 5, Followers of Set >1 Dedefra nec obf SER 5, Followers of Set >3 Agaitas AUS for NEC 6, Harbingers of Skulls With a fair amount of ser, though regrettably little SER, we might be able to address: >>>Reaction (17 cards) >9 Telepathic Counter >4 Telepathic Misdirection >4 Wake with Evening's Freshness>> > >Sketchy. You only have 4 vampires with ausepex (and only 3 with AUS). If >something happens to Agitas, these cards are pretty much total dead weight. by swapping some (all?) of the Telepathic Counters for Ecstasy... >Looks like a reasonable Corruption deck. It looks like it'll have trouble >against [...] a fast bleeding predator. fixing this to a limited extent. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<BA3DC5A9.B2EB%PD...@bigplanet.com>... > Wouter Kuyper wrote: > > > I am not saying it is easy...but i do remember i saw a deck somewhere > > that did this kind of things...I read it on the web, so you should be > > able to find it... > > I think its name was Mirembe rides again...or something like that... > > Yeah, I think I remeber that one. It was kinda funny. My point here, > however, is that the original poster (whose name I can't remember--I don't > think it was you, Wouter) No, it wasn't me,..i haven't checked, but i think it was Wes...I think it was tournament winning, so that also sortof answers your questions about its possibilty to be good... was claiming that Temptation was too powerful, and > using as an example, a Gangrel Temptation deck, which I find difficult to > fathom as being even good, let alone an example of how Temptation can be too > powerful. And I keep hoping he'll come back and, like, post the deck or > something. > -snip a bit where we agree- > Yeah, I'm not *really* seeing it as a good idea, especially as the vampire > selection is very thin (3 Settites with Tha and Ian Forrestal who can play > both cards neccessary) Maybe some sort of combo with the large FoS/Tha > vampires, and then lots of little Tremere. Not real good or anything, but > possible. Yeah, i would probably go for the weenie angle, with two different weenies... 1) the obf-ser weenies+ 2) the tha-weenies I never really tried any deck with vamps for so different actions, would it work? W

Wouter Kuyper wrote: > No, it wasn't me,..i haven't checked, but i think it was Wes...I think > it was tournament winning, so that also sortof answers your questions > about its possibilty to be good... Not the original post in this here thread--wasn't Wes. Was some guy I'd never seen before, and was the same guy who started the "cards that are too strong and should be fixed" thread, but apparently, he has since disappeared. I'm not buying that a Gangrel/Serpentis/Temptation deck can win anything, let alone enough games to win a tournament, till I see one. > Yeah, i would probably go for the weenie angle, with two different > weenies... > 1) the obf-ser weenies+ > 2) the tha-weenies > > I never really tried any deck with vamps for so different actions, > would it work? I'm not thinking so. Too many ways for the deck to fall apart. Might be tryable, however. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:BA3F5999.B350%PD...@bigplanet.com... > Wouter Kuyper wrote: > > > No, it wasn't me,..i haven't checked, but i think it was Wes...I think > > it was tournament winning, so that also sortof answers your questions > > about its possibilty to be good... > > Not the original post in this here thread--wasn't Wes. Was some guy I'd > never seen before, and was the same guy who started the "cards that are too > strong and should be fixed" thread, but apparently, he has since > disappeared. > > I'm not buying that a Gangrel/Serpentis/Temptation deck can win anything, > let alone enough games to win a tournament, till I see one. There are only actually two Temptations in the tournament-winning version of Jay Kristoff's "Mirembe Rides Again" but it is certainly a Gangrel/Serpentis deck... http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=encV8.9201%24Lp5.2485894%40twister.colu mbus.rr.com Incidentally, Nehsi is Mirembe's secret older brother. 9-cap, sure, but also has PRO SER (and OBF PRE for aus, 2 votes, and a maneuver each combat). Amisa is the ignored middle child - 8, pro SER OBF pre, 2 votes. > > Yeah, i would probably go for the weenie angle, with two different > > weenies... > > 1) the obf-ser weenies+ > > 2) the tha-weenies > > > > I never really tried any deck with vamps for so different actions, > > would it work? > > I'm not thinking so. Too many ways for the deck to fall apart. Might be > tryable, however. Sounds like fun to me! Almost as good as Cryptic Mission/Foul Blood! :-) Josh foul blood!

Joshua Duffin wrote: > There are only actually two Temptations in the tournament-winning > version of Jay Kristoff's "Mirembe Rides Again" but it is certainly > a Gangrel/Serpentis deck... I suppose, but only by virtue of it having 8 total Serpentis cards in the deck--mostly it is a 22 Earth Meld deck. While the deck in question certainly seems good, it hardly is an illustration for how Temptation is too powerful, and how a Gangrel/Temptation deck is an example of such (as per the original post in this thread). [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:BA40A6BA.B3AE%PD...@bigplanet.com... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > > There are only actually two Temptations in the tournament-winning > > version of Jay Kristoff's "Mirembe Rides Again" but it is certainly > > a Gangrel/Serpentis deck... > > I suppose, but only by virtue of it having 8 total Serpentis cards in the > deck--mostly it is a 22 Earth Meld deck. > > While the deck in question certainly seems good, it hardly is an > illustration for how Temptation is too powerful, and how a > Gangrel/Temptation deck is an example of such (as per the original post in > this thread). Well, uh, no. It's not. Probably because Temptation isn't too powerful. It is strong, and one of Serpentis's best cards I'd say (up with Form of Corruption), and useful in multiples. But no, not too powerful, and I haven't seen any Gangrel/Temptation decks that would indicate that it is. :-) Josh today's tom paine she gets high on you

Joshua Duffin wrote: > Well, uh, no. It's not. Probably because Temptation isn't too > powerful. It is strong, and one of Serpentis's best cards I'd > say (up with Form of Corruption), and useful in multiples. But > no, not too powerful, and I haven't seen any Gangrel/Temptation > decks that would indicate that it is. :-) Which is what I keep hoping for, but the guy who brought up the concept has jumped ship. Sad, really. [ quoted text not captured ]