Preview #6: Trochomancy

Trochomancy Action Modifier nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed --> J grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com

Personally, I can see some funny uses of this... great for killing of Shambling Horde decks, and the ol' Anthelios Master recursion decks. The only question is, who gets to choose the cards that are removed from the game. From the sounds of the card, the Methusela who plays it does, which is the real nasty aspect of it. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Meh. For a clan with dom, this has 'silver bullet' written all over it.

> Meh. For a clan with dom, this has 'silver bullet' written all over it. Harbingers. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Looks good for the Harbingers of Skulls. Looks good against the Imbued.

Wow, didn't expect any news today, this time I wasn't the fastest one ! ;-) >> Trochomancy >> Action Modifier >> nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game >> to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash >> heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. >> aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards >> AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed > Looks good for the Harbingers of Skulls. Yes it does ! For a long time the Harbinger's weakness compared to the Giovanni was that they had no way to finish their prey easily without Dom. Now they have a way, even if it isn't the fastest one (Slaughterhouse has a new use...). Yes, not game-breaking but nice. Also nice in a deck including Matthias, will try that one anew now... > Looks good against the > Imbued. Against their cycling, sure. But as many cards will already be cycled... And then the bleed has to succeed, that's another problem. See, sometimes I'm even happy about necrocards ! ;-) -- Orpheus ---------------- Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.

On Sep 8, 5:04 pm, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote: > Wow, didn't expect any news today, this time I wasn't the fastest one ! ;-) > > >> Trochomancy > >> Action Modifier > >> nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game > >> to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash > >> heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. > >> aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards > >> AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed > > Looks good for the Harbingers of Skulls. > (snip) > > Looks good against the > > Imbued. > > Against their cycling, sure. But as many cards will already be cycled... And > then the bleed has to succeed, that's another problem. > I don't read that the bleed has to succeed... The bleed can even be redirected afterwards, it wouldn't change a thing about who will have his ash heap emptied (the target of the bleed at the time the card is played), am I right ? Francois

J <gra...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Personally, I can see some funny uses of this... great for killing of > Shambling Horde decks, and the ol' Anthelios Master recursion decks. > The only question is, who gets to choose the cards that are removed > from the game. From the sounds of the card, the Methusela who plays > it does, which is the real nasty aspect of it. The other real nasty aspect of this card (especially against imbued or other ash-heap-sensitive targets) is that you can play it after someone is successfully attempting to block. A: "Nedal the Careless attempts to bleed for 1." B: "Travis blocks". C: "Nedal plays Trochomancy.. ok, remove 13 cards from your ash heap, and your block succeeds."

On Sat, 8 Sep 2007, Jozxyqk wrote: > The other real nasty aspect of this card (especially against imbued or > other ash-heap-sensitive targets) is that you can play it after > someone is successfully attempting to block. > > A: "Nedal the Careless attempts to bleed for 1." > B: "Travis blocks". > C: "Nedal plays Trochomancy.. ok, remove 13 cards from your ash heap, > and your block succeeds." Yeah, that's kinda cool, but you're going to need Slaughterhouses or something. I don't think I've ever had 13 cards in my ash heap while playing Imbued. Everything goes into play. Matt Morgan

> (snip) >> > Looks good against the >> > Imbued. >> >> Against their cycling, sure. But as many cards will already be cycled... >> And >> then the bleed has to succeed, that's another problem. >> > > I don't read that the bleed has to succeed... That's not what I implied. I meant to say that a bleed deck has to succeed in bleeding in order to kill its prey. But yes, it can impair your prey anyway. > The bleed can even be redirected afterwards, it wouldn't change a > thing about who will have his ash heap emptied (the target of the > bleed at the time the card is played), am I right ? Looks right to me. --------- Orpheus, dead right.

>> The other real nasty aspect of this card (especially against imbued or >> other ash-heap-sensitive targets) is that you can play it after >> someone is successfully attempting to block. >> >> A: "Nedal the Careless attempts to bleed for 1." >> B: "Travis blocks". >> C: "Nedal plays Trochomancy.. ok, remove 13 cards from your ash heap, >> and your block succeeds." > > Yeah, that's kinda cool, but you're going to need Slaughterhouses or > something. I don't think I've ever had 13 cards in my ash heap while > playing Imbued. 7 could do the trick for Harbingers. > Everything goes into play. That's the real problem, isn't it ? How big is usually your ash heap at various moments in the game (say, after 3, 6 and 9 turns) ? [ quoted text not captured ]

http://www.webspinning.com.au/home/lambertj/public_html/t.man.html Divination by use of wheel tracks? I don't get it...! On Sep 8, 10:32 am, J <grai...@hotmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <2007090810...@eris.io.com>, Matthew T. Morgan [ quoted text not captured ] Well, it's not 13 once you get to aus/nec, it's only 7. Which is all of the Harbingers, except one - Mina Grotius. Obviously, not all vampires in a deck will be able to use it, if there are hangers on like Nedal. You only need a little bit of Slaughterhouse action because you should be able to get a situation where the Imbued has used up a couple of Convictions, and was aiming to recycle them next turn. Also, add in Revelations - I permanently get rid of a specific Conviction card from your hand, by being successful and then bleeding. Also: - Lupine Assault - prime the ash heap in a hurry, and it will set you up for other Methuselahs too - Border Skirmish. Ben Peal mentioned a deck on IRC a while back that used Border Skirmish for great annoyance value. - Lessons in the Steel - AUS/FOR (Harbingers!), discard a card of my choice. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Sep 8, 11:39 am, Screaming Vermillian <alexandernja...@gmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] This card would combo real nice with slaughter house. putting them in play actually has a purpose other than wantonly making your prey discard. It gives the harbingers access to ousting power to go along with their high defensive abilities. daddy like.

On Sep 8, 3:49 pm, Jeroen <joen_...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Meh. For a clan with dom, this has 'silver bullet' written all over it. It may be a silver bullet, but it's an extremely low opportunity cost silver bullet. You have to take a bleed action, not necessarily successfully, to use it. I'd be tempted to put two copies in any deck that had Necromancy on its Vampires.

On Sep 8, 5:36 pm, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote: > > (snip) > >> > Looks good against the > >> > Imbued. > > >> Against their cycling, sure. But as many cards will already be cycled... > >> And > >> then the bleed has to succeed, that's another problem. > > > I don't read that the bleed has to succeed... > > That's not what I implied. I meant to say that a bleed deck has to succeed > in bleeding in order to kill its prey. But yes, it can impair your prey > anyway. Oh well. Next time a fellow player is whining that conditionning is broken, I know what to answer now :) Francois

[ quoted text not captured ] From first glance this is probably one of my favourite cards in the set. All you need is to announce a bleed, and you can fuck recursion. Sweet! :) -- Regards, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Heh, Orpheus must still be in un-sleep. The first one he hasn't posted first, and a darn Necromancy card too! Oh, the irony... best - chris -- Super Fun Cards http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/ auct...@superfuncards.com

[ quoted text not captured ] Vamps who can use at AUS/NEC: Crypt: (13 cards, Min: 25, Max: 39, Avg: 7.84) ---------------------------------------------- 1 Agaitas for AUS NEC 6 Harbingers of Skulls 1 Kanimana Belghazi pro AUS DOM NEC 7 Nagaraja 1 Egothha obf AUS FOR NEC 7 Harbingers of Skulls 1 Bartholomew dom obt AUS MYT NEC8 Kiasyd 1 Unre dom ser thn AUS FOR NEC9 Harbingers of Skulls 1 Augustus Giovanni cel pre AUS DOM NEC POT11 Giovanni 1 Marino Reymundo Vasquez ani AUS DOM NEC THA9 Tremere Antitribu 1 Phagian for dom THA NEC AUS8 Harbingers of Skulls 1 Babalawo Alafin ani AUS FOR NEC 7 Harbingers of Skulls 1 Sennadurek dom AUS NEC 6 Nagaraja 1 Zygodat pot AUS NEC 6 Harbingers of Skulls 1 Troglodytia obf pot AUS FOR NEC THN10 Samedi 1 Yavu Matebo abo AUS DOM NEC 8 Nagaraja I would drop 2-3 in an Agaitas deck. Of course most of these vamps have dom or DOM, and don't really need a conditional bleed booster. If you can catch a moment when your Imbued prey has 7 cards in their ash, including some convictions, can be very nice indeed. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Kevin Walsh" <hja...@redbrick.dcu.ie> wrote in message news:1189268202.8...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I beg to differ : it isn't a good card for the Giovanni. OTOH they already have Dom, and the very good card that is Dis Pater. The opportunity cost for a deck without any way to cycle either your prey's library or to get your cards back into play is high ; for a clan having access to Slaughterhouses, Maabara and Necromancy, much less so. Trochomancy is made for the Harbingers, and it's nice that they finally have such a card. [ quoted text not captured ]

> You only need a little bit of Slaughterhouse action because you should > be able to get a situation where the Imbued has used up a couple of > Convictions, and was aiming to recycle them next turn. Also, add in > Revelations - Le Din Tho. Who accendientally has Aus. > I permanently get rid of a specific Conviction card from > your hand, by being successful and then bleeding. > > Also: > > - Lupine Assault - prime the ash heap in a hurry, and it will set you up > for other Methuselahs too Good with Slaughterhouses. > - Border Skirmish. Ben Peal mentioned a deck on IRC a while back that > used Border Skirmish for great annoyance value. There are better cards for our guys. > - Lessons in the Steel - AUS/FOR (Harbingers!), discard a card of my > choice. More akin to their disciplines, but still I'm not a fan. Anyway, there are options out there. And finally a real using for milling. Hope that's a common... [ quoted text not captured ]

>> That's not what I implied. I meant to say that a bleed deck has to >> succeed >> in bleeding in order to kill its prey. But yes, it can impair your prey >> anyway. > > Oh well. Next time a fellow player is whining that conditionning is > broken, I know what to answer now :) > > Francois "Yes, why" ? ;-)

> Heh, Orpheus must still be in un-sleep. The first one he hasn't posted > first, and a darn Necromancy card too! > > Oh, the irony... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG ! Chris, I hate you !! And WW too for posting 1 preview every day just for that one. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Vamps who can use at AUS/NEC: (snip list) Matthias has AUS / Nec and not Dom. The Harbingers don't have Dom either. I'd use those cards for either one or both of those. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, I didn't mean to say "THIS IS SOOPER ANTI-IMBYOOD TEK!" (especially since, as we've talked about before, Imbued aren't sky-fallingly broken in Boston). I just meant that the card has a sometimes-notable effect, for free, even when you're blocked. Against Imbued, Shambling Hordes, Twister decks, or any deck that does stuff with its ash heap.

"J" <gra...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:1189263198.2...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> Meh. For a clan with dom, this has 'silver bullet' written all over it. > > Harbingers. They are not a clan with dom....

[ quoted text not captured ] sure he have - it is his IN CLAN DISCIPLINE :P

> >> Meh. For a clan with dom, this has 'silver bullet' written all over it. > > > Harbingers. > > They are not a clan with dom.... That was my point exactly. Necromancy isn't the sole domain of Giovanni. [ quoted text not captured ]

"J" <gra...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:1189301625.9...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> >> Meh. For a clan with dom, this has 'silver bullet' written all over >> >> it. >> >> > Harbingers. >> >> They are not a clan with dom.... > > That was my point exactly. Necromancy isn't the sole domain of > Giovanni. I know. My point was that, for the giovanni, this has silver bullet written all over it. But I can see how my statement can be misread.

-- >> > The other real nasty aspect of this card (especially against imbued or >> > other ash-heap-sensitive targets) is that you can play it after >> > someone is successfully attempting to block. >> > >> > A: "Nedal the Careless attempts to bleed for 1." >> > B: "Travis blocks". >> > C: "Nedal plays Trochomancy.. ok, remove 13 cards from your ash heap, >> > and your block succeeds." > >> Yeah, that's kinda cool, but you're going to need Slaughterhouses or >> something. I don't think I've ever had 13 cards in my ash heap while >> playing Imbued. Everything goes into play. > > Well, I didn't mean to say "THIS IS SOOPER ANTI-IMBYOOD TEK!" > (especially since, as we've talked about before, Imbued aren't > sky-fallingly > broken in Boston). Ok, noted. > I just meant that the card has a sometimes-notable effect, for free, even > when you're blocked. Against Imbued, Shambling Hordes, Twister decks, or > any deck that does stuff with its ash heap. Sure. Now, about Hordes, I've given it a thought, and it would have to be carefully used : the Trochomancy card would be good, no doubt, but the Slaughterhouses less so, if you don't want to help the deck rather than hinder it ; of course, if you will more or less precisely what you're going to burn, it can be great ! [ quoted text not captured ]

J skrev: > Trochomancy > Action Modifier > nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game > to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash > heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. > aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards > AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed > > --> J > grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com > Question of clarification: Does 'target¨Metuselah's' ALWAYS refer to the target of the bleed, or can I target any ash-heap with this effect to get +1/+2 bleed? Sten -- More ramblings at http://yapvamp.blogspot.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:14:09 +0200, Sten Düring <ya...@netg.se> wrote: >J skrev: >> Trochomancy >> Action Modifier >> nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game >> to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash >> heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. >> aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards >> AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed > >Question of clarification: Does 'target¨Metuselah's' ALWAYS refer >to the target of the bleed, or can I target any ash-heap with >this effect to get +1/+2 bleed? As a Bleed is a (D) action (with a required target outside specific card text), and Trochomancy is an action modifier only playable during an action, I would have to assume* that target methuselah refers to the target of the action**, not a free standing target. If that was the intent, I would again assume* it would say "any Methuselah". * Yes, I know assumptions are the mother of all f***ups, but oh well. ** Target of the action at the time. If it were to be bounced after that, the cards would have already been lost, and the bleed gained. Morgan Vening - Accomplice to a lot of f***ups.

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct, except for the "have to" part on assume. This is no treacherous assumption path. This is clear. "the target Methuselah". See also Yong-Sun advanced, Revelation of Desire, and Weigh the Heart. And Dirty Little Secrets, Doctor Streck, and Major Boon.

LSJ skrev: > > Correct, except for the "have to" part on assume. This is no treacherous > assumption path. This is clear. "the target Methuselah". > > See also Yong-Sun advanced, Revelation of Desire, and Weigh the Heart. > > And Dirty Little Secrets, Doctor Streck, and Major Boon. Good, just as I assumed, but it doesn't hurt to have it in writing :) The single reason for my question is that, in general, any tampering with any ash-heap is NOT a directed action. Hmm, that DOES add yet another follow-up question (to which I assume the answer is: yes): A hypothetical (action)-card that limits your tampering with an ash- heap to tampering with your prey's ash-heap would still be an undirected action? [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I am pretty sure that if you got bounced before you played this card then you could target the ashheap of the new Methuselah that you are bleeding. This could be important if you are playing in a 3-way with a Twister/Imbued as your predator. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

J <gra...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Trochomancy > Action Modifier > nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game > to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash > heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. > aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards > AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed One more confirmation about this card (text indicates "yes"): Can you remove crypt cards from the ash heap with this card?

On 10 sep, 15:45, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Sure, why not? There's only 1 ash heap for all cards..

[ quoted text not captured ] > And Dirty Little Secrets, Doctor Streck, and Major Boon.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - This card also does NOT say "only usable on a bleed action". Therefore can you use this card on ANY D action? Vegas gNat

tigernat1 wrote: > This card also does NOT say "only usable on a bleed action". > Therefore can you use this card on ANY D action? No. It says +X bleed. See also Threats, &c.

[ quoted text not captured ] > Vegas gNat- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I suspect similar to how you could not use superior Bonding on a D action for the stealth you cannot use this card on any action other than a bleed. The original bonding did not have the current text "only usable on a bleed action" but was ruled as such. But hey, IANLSJ John P. Winnipeg John P.

On Sep 8, 3:32 pm, J <grai...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Trochomancy > Action Modifier > nec: Remove 13 cards in the target Methusela's ash heap from the game > to get +1 bleed. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash > heap. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed. > aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards > AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed This is a(nother) corner case card with specific usage: It can only be used in a bleed action. It can be used on prey or if bleed is deflected to another player. It targets only the ash heap: good for combating a recycle deck or shambling hordes deck. Maybe against an Imbued deck but i don't know. It grants a +1 bleed for a nec vampire even without dominate or presence. Honestly i don't plan to use it on any of my decks. Those slots are precious for useful cards. My 2 cents.

[ quoted text not captured ] You don't need alot of them. Just one or two. Remember that when you need them you can just use your necromancy to pull them back out of the ashheap. :) It's very good anti-twister tech for a twister deck. It's also very good anti-Anthelios tech. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Also i see this card as a possibly usefull deal card. Make a deal to be bounced to imbued player, and use to remove all their cards from ash heap, thus limiting re use of cards. Same if recursion deck on table

On Sep 11, 12:59 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > On Sep 11, 6:55 am, luis.pal...@gmail.com wrote: > > You don't need alot of them. Just one or two. Remember that when you > need them you can just use your necromancy to pull them back out of > the ashheap. :) Yes but since i have always too few slots for more interesting cards i really doubt i'll spend a couple of slots for these corner case cards (read below plz). > > It's very good anti-twister tech for a twister deck. > It's also very good anti-Anthelios tech. It's dependant on your game environment. For what i know here the main problem are the Imbued decks and the good players! :-) We rarely see an Anthelios and never seen a Twister deck.

Would this card have been better had it given stealth instead of bleed? > ?Trochomancy? > Action Modifier > nec: Remove 13 cards in your PREY'S ash heap from the game > to get +1 stealth. Not useable if there aren't enough cards in that ash > heap. > aus nec: As nec above, but remove only 7 cards > AUS NEC: As aus nec above, but for +2 bleed Vegas gNat

>> You don't need alot of them. Just one or two. Remember that when you >> need them you can just use your necromancy to pull them back out of >> the ashheap. :) > > Yes but since i have always too few slots for more interesting cards i > really doubt i'll spend a couple of slots for these corner case cards > (read below plz). I think you don't see who this card is for. I think the Giovanni really don't need it. The Harbingers, OTOH, have no bleed boosts modifier whatsoever available, and until now could only augment their bleeds through Pulse, equipments / retainers, or Force of Will. Now they have a bleed booster, and guess what, it's in perfect synergy with their main location ! That's it. The anti-recursion thing is a bonus. No one ever said it was a card to include in a regular Giovanni deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Would this card have been better had it given stealth instead of > bleed? No. Next question ?

>> I think you don't see who this card is for. I think the Giovanni really >> don't need it. The Harbingers, OTOH, have no bleed boosts modifier >> whatsoever available, and until now could only augment their bleeds >> through >> Pulse, equipments / retainers, or Force of Will. Now they have a bleed >> booster, and guess what, it's in perfect synergy with their main location >> ! >> >> That's it. The anti-recursion thing is a bonus. No one ever said it was a >> card to include in a regular Giovanni deck. > > So why are they printing this card in an independent set with the > Giovanni instead of holding onto it for a "bloodlines" set? Why did they print Asanbonsam Ghoul in LoB ? Would you rather wait 4 more years before some Bloodlines become as playable as they should be ? I think it was announced that there'd be cards for other clans too. Or maybe it's just the disciplineless. Anyway, It's nice to find new toys for your other guys. And of course, there are Giovanni with Aus, and all those with Nec can use it. It's just not a good card for them. It is good for the FoS. [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] Agreed. Also note that the card is free. If you happen to have a "star vampire" (Troglodytia ?!?) with NEC/AUS it´s good stuff. -- Johannes Walch

Don't you think it's a death card for draft with recursion?

> Don't you think it's a death card for draft with recursion? Wow, didn't think of it, but I guess so, yes !

IC-O...@yandex.ru wrote: > Don't you think it's a death card for draft with recursion? > Nice call Oddish! Speaking of Draft - what set will draft best with this set? How do you guys feel about KMW, or some other set? best - chris -- Super Fun Cards http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/ auct...@superfuncards.com

>> Don't you think it's a death card for draft with recursion? >> > > Nice call Oddish! > > Speaking of Draft - what set will draft best with this set? How do you > guys feel about KMW, or some other set? Why do you want to mix it ? It's a big set, so it should be self-reliable. Now, of course, if you had to mix it, it would be KMW, for obvious compatibility reasons. Or you could go for LoB but it would be much more complicated, I'd say (in terms of stapple cards, discipline compatibility etc). [ quoted text not captured ]