The Grandest Capitalist (LSJ)

If I have Julia Prima with a Capitalist archetype on her. She bleeds with The Grandest Trick, and is successful. Does she: (a) Revert to being a vampire when the action's over, and then gain one blood? (b) Try to gain one blood and fail (cause she's an ally), and then revert to vampire? Or (c) I am acting so I will order them as I see fit? Just wondering. -- Brian going on The Grandest Buying Spree, if this works

firstco...@aol.com wrote: > If I have Julia Prima with a Capitalist archetype on her. She bleeds > with The Grandest Trick, and is successful. Does she: > > (a) Revert to being a vampire when the action's over, and then gain one > blood? > (b) Try to gain one blood and fail (cause she's an ally), and then > revert to vampire? Or > (c) I am acting so I will order them as I see fit? (d) Is an ally when she successfully bleeds, so doesn't even try to gain one blood.

firstco...@aol.com wrote: > going on The Grandest Buying Spree, if this works It works, just use Perfectionist instead. But Julia cannot use her special during the action (I don't believe) so just use Bartholomew with a Pulse and add some Auspex skill cards since it only takes one each for Beatrice and Julia to get Pulses. Or, of course, Song of Pan (or both). Actually, with SoP maybe this would be a good deck idea for group 3/4 Kiasyd, since I haven't found them to be more useful than 2/3 yet.

Robert Scythe wrote: > firstco...@aol.com wrote: > > > going on The Grandest Buying Spree, if this works > > It works, just use Perfectionist instead. Actually, it might not work (but Perfectionist is still better)

Actually, with SoP maybe this would be a good deck idea for > group 3/4 Kiasyd, since I haven't found them to be more useful than 2/3 > yet. Just allow me to comment on this: "You haven't WHAT??" uuhm, hello? I'm quite baffled by this. Do you actually feel the group 2-3 Kiasyd make for equaly competitive decks as would the group 3-4? That's like, uh, really hard to understand for me. Out of the whole series, I thought these were the biggest improvement. And actually, I'm still surprised to *not*see Kiasyd decks popping up like mushrooms Myself, I liked the Kiasyd before, but absolutely adore them now. If I weren't already engaged in promoting !Ventrue for their sheer underdog-ness, I guess I'd be playing Kiasyd a lot these days.. /jo

[ quoted text not captured ] Now that's really hard for me to understand. By far the Bloodlines clan that was most improved was !Salubri. Can you really be saying the the group 2 Kiasyd are weak and unplayable? While I don't think the new Kiasyd are bad, I don't see them any more powerful or able than the original 5. Bartholomew is a bloodgain bouncing star, Julia Prima is a bleeder extraordinaire. Beatrice is a solid midcap. Marconius has votes, strength and the reducing cost special. Okay, I grant you, Kassiym Malikhair isn't that hot, though fairly solid disciplines for a 6 cap. Perhaps the biggest star in the new Kiasyd is Quincy, since his special so messes with the Imbued. And since he's group 3, he easily meshes in with the 'old schoool' Kiasyd. Omme is a mini-Marconius, and Pherydima's untap is pretty nifty. Roderick's equip is a bit iffy, at least for me, as I don't often play that much equipment with Kiasyd, though I don't deny it's potentially useful with the right deck. Though I do admit that Dame Hollerton outshines Beatrice. But to say they're vastly superior to the older Kiasyd? Nope, just don't buy it. Even with the new ones, I still play with the originals. I do like most of the new cards ... Song of Pan is great! Still not sure I have a use for the Redcap, though. Suppose it works well if you're looking to get into more fights with them. In fact, I found most of the new bloodline vamps to be not as good as the originals. The only ones I found to be on a truely equal footing are the Scarce clans, except for the Nagaraja, who I just find especially lacking. And the !Salubri are an exception to this, of course, suddenly leaping forward into a very playable and powerful bloodline. Chris, Thrall of Arika

> Wolflord wrote: > > Actually, with SoP maybe this would be a good deck idea for > > > group 3/4 Kiasyd, since I haven't found them to be more useful than 2/3 > > > yet. First, I don't get this comment at all. I don't see why that combo works differently with G2 or G4 Kiasyds, as both can use Song of Pan ? > > Just allow me to comment on this: > > "You haven't WHAT??" > > uuhm, hello? > > > > I'm quite baffled by this. > > Do you actually feel the group 2-3 Kiasyd make for equaly competitive > > decks as would the group 3-4? Totally agreed with U if we're talking total-tunnel. > > That's like, uh, really hard to understand for me. > > Out of the whole series, I thought these were the biggest improvement. This is arguable, but it sure was an improvment. > > And actually, I'm still surprised to *not*see Kiasyd decks popping up > > like mushrooms Yes. > > Myself, I liked the Kiasyd before, but absolutely adore them now. > > If I weren't already engaged in promoting !Ventrue for their sheer > > underdog-ness, I guess I'd be playing Kiasyd a lot these days.. > > > > /jo > > Now that's really hard for me to understand. > > By far the Bloodlines clan that was most improved was !Salubri. Agreed, because they were so shitty to begin with. But the Kiasyd were "nice" before, maybe just not as a whole clan : I included Julia and sometimes Kassiym Malikhair (was a very good midcap Dom / Obt for G2...) in Lasombra decks, and Bart + Beatrice in some weird necrauspex decks, but when I tried in competitions to make a real Kiasyd deck I had to face facts : they were just not good enough. Reasons detailed below. > Can you really be saying the the group 2 Kiasyd are weak and > unplayable? While I don't think the new Kiasyd are bad, I don't see > them any more powerful or able than the original 5. Bartholomew is a > bloodgain bouncing star, At least he looks like it. But he really isn't. Let's look at the options that allow us to actually gain pool and use him for bounce (before 3rd Ed) - first he has to be untapped at the end of your turn (Metro Underground, Mylan etc), already needs special setup) - Telepathic Misdirection will tap him, so he can't use his special ; meaning any bleed for more than 1 will render his special obsolete ; also, 2 other Kiasyd have inf Aus, so they will need skills / Sanguine ; such setup doesn't help with the flow of a s'n'b deck, trust me. - He has inf Dom so he'll also tap with Deflections, and see above about the necessary setup - the inf Dom also means that you'll have to pay 8 pool for a vamp who can't govern down, and probably not be governed down in time (only Marconius could do it, requires 3 turns to get out, see below) : the blood you think you gain with his special in fact equals to blood and time you don't gain with Governs, and that's very bad. Not to mention that his inf Obt in a s'n'b deck isn't what I'd call "good news"... So as I said I'll only play him in trick decks, but have to insist that he's not very competitive. > Julia Prima is a bleeder extraordinaire. On that I can only agree, obviously, and she's currently the only reason why I'd play G2 obt / dom s'n'b (along with fear of contest), but not in a full kyasid deck. Also, she isn't that good in a kyasid deck : she can't use superior Aura Absorption for stealth, Stone Travel against combat or Fae Contortion for stealth... No, really, she's only a great Lasombra... without access to Lasombra cards. :-? > Beatrice is a solid midcap. No she's not. She doesn't have Obt, meaning so S:CE for her. > Marconius has votes, strength and the > reducing cost special. He costs 9, if you want to play vote Lasombras are better, he's too big for a s'n'b deck, and although it's tempting to try fighting decks with him, it isn't, of course, very good. As for his special, it is only useful with Myt cards that cost blood : Basilisk's touch is very marginal, Steal the Mind is pure crap, and Redcap Wilder could be nice in trick decks but isn't really needed for good bleeds. So Marconius won't see the nightlight in most of my Kiasyd decks. > Okay, I grant you, Kassiym Malikhair isn't that > hot, though fairly solid disciplines for a 6 cap. lol. Well, he was pretty good in G2 !! OBT + MYT means he can play Stone Travel as well as Shroud of Absence, Fae Contortion + S:CE, and even just with Obt / Dom he was comparable to Lasombra 6-Cap ; not anymore, obviously. > Perhaps the biggest star in the new Kiasyd is Quincy, since his special > so messes with the Imbued. And since he's group 3, he easily meshes in > with the 'old schoool' Kiasyd. Agreed, but then he's also a very good friend of G4s so let's not mention him here. > Omme is a mini-Marconius, No. Ohme is a 7-cap bleeder with both stealth disciplines at sup and, barring Gratiano, 3 votes. The fact he pays one less blood for cards that are mostly free or uninteresting is a cornercase issue here. > and > Pherydima's untap is pretty nifty. Yes. But the more nifty part is that she already has inf Obt, as Bart, but at least she has DOM ! And although I'd prefer her without a Bishop title (for Anarchy) it's one more vote ; she was the only one in G4 with Obt / Nec but it looks like we're getting more (although I want even moooooore !!). > Roderick's equip is a bit iffy, at > least for me, as I don't often play that much equipment with Kiasyd, > though I don't deny it's potentially useful with the right deck. Agreed. Still, another 7-Cap, this time with DOM. > Though > I do admit that Dame Hollerton outshines Beatrice. By far. > But to say they're vastly superior to the older Kiasyd? Yes they are. They have much better discipline synergy, the average crypt is lower (G2 = 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 / 5 = 7, G4 = 5 + 7 + 7 + 8 / 4 = 6,75), the better spread of DOM means they will come out cheaper and faster ; the only two downsides are : only 5 G3-G4 as of now (but as some of the others were really not good it isn't that much of a downside) and the absence of crosstable effect without Julia (but then you have more votes so you can deal to some extent). On the whole, they are much, much more competitive. > Nope, just > don't buy it. Even with the new ones, I still play with the originals. Good for you. You have the right to like them. But please don't try telling us the G2, as a clan, were better than the G4 : they are good for the spirit in which they were, officially, conceived : as additions to other "main" clans. > I do like most of the new cards ... Song of Pan is great! Of course. > Still not > sure I have a use for the Redcap, though. Suppose it works well if > you're looking to get into more fights with them. Not worth it. Of course you're missing one of the best Myt cards : Fae Contortion !! > In fact, I found most of the new bloodline vamps to be not as good as > the originals. Too long to develop now for me, but too wide a statement to be true. Just as examples : Tupdogs and Blood Sisters offer totally new possibilities. For the rest, we'd have to compare vamp / on vamp ; trouble being that the G4 bloodlines currently hold one less vamp than G2, Gargoyles, Blood Brothers and Scarce clans excepted. > The only ones I found to be on a truely equal footing > are the Scarce clans, Salubri are good, Trujahs have some use although I'm still fan of some strategies available only to the previous ones. > except for the Nagaraja, who I just find > especially lacking. Always did, always will. This clan is the "scarcestest" ever, only Le Din Tho really exists ! ;-) > And the !Salubri are an exception to this, of > course, suddenly leaping forward into a very playable and powerful > bloodline. Yes, although it relies a lot in the new G3 vamp and the new cards, so now I've actually seen some good G2-G3 !Salubri decks too !! :-) -- Orpheus ----------------------- I'm dead serious ! Well, mostly dead...

Orpheus wrote: > > By far the Bloodlines clan that was most improved was !Salubri. > > Agreed, because they were so shitty to begin with. But the Kiasyd were > "nice" before, maybe just not as a whole clan : I included Julia and > sometimes Kassiym Malikhair (was a very good midcap Dom / Obt for G2...) in > Lasombra decks, and Bart + Beatrice in some weird necrauspex decks, but when > I tried in competitions to make a real Kiasyd deck I had to face facts : > they were just not good enough. Reasons detailed below. > I usually play Kiasyd with Lasbombra support myself, though I admit I still haven't focussed well enough on the various deck attempts to be truly competitive with them, but I usually see some good success with them ... though usually because it comes down to stealthy bleeds winning the game, rather than anything particular to do with Kiasyd. > > Can you really be saying the the group 2 Kiasyd are weak and > > unplayable? While I don't think the new Kiasyd are bad, I don't see > > them any more powerful or able than the original 5. Bartholomew is a > > bloodgain bouncing star, > > At least he looks like it. But he really isn't. Let's look at the options > that allow us to actually gain pool and use him for bounce (before 3rd Ed) > > - first he has to be untapped at the end of your turn (Metro Underground, > Mylan etc), already needs special setup) > > - Telepathic Misdirection will tap him, so he can't use his special ; > meaning any bleed for more than 1 will render his special obsolete ; also, 2 > other Kiasyd have inf Aus, so they will need skills / Sanguine ; such setup > doesn't help with the flow of a s'n'b deck, trust me. > > - He has inf Dom so he'll also tap with Deflections, and see above about the > necessary setup > > - the inf Dom also means that you'll have to pay 8 pool for a vamp who can't > govern down, and probably not be governed down in time (only Marconius could > do it, requires 3 turns to get out, see below) : the blood you think you > gain with his special in fact equals to blood and time you don't gain with > Governs, and that's very bad. > > Not to mention that his inf Obt in a s'n'b deck isn't what I'd call "good > news"... > No, you're right, for some reason I was thinking he has superior DOM. And I should have said poolgain, not bloodgain ... though I have had a couple of games with Bartholomew and the Rack/Blood Doll combo, which was pretty sweet. Also, the last time I used Kiasyd, I was playing Folderol more than bounce, so having him untapped and reducing all over the place was fun. Still, he's a favourite of mine. > So as I said I'll only play him in trick decks, but have to insist that he's > not very competitive. > > > Julia Prima is a bleeder extraordinaire. > > On that I can only agree, obviously, and she's currently the only reason why > I'd play G2 obt / dom s'n'b (along with fear of contest), but not in a full > kyasid deck. > > Also, she isn't that good in a kyasid deck : she can't use superior Aura > Absorption for stealth, Stone Travel against combat or Fae Contortion for > stealth... No, really, she's only a great Lasombra... without access to > Lasombra cards. :-? > I have to agree, she could really do with superior MYT, I usually pack a couple of Sanguine Instructions just for that case. But I can see her working very well in a Lasombra deck. I keep looking at Lasombra to do something with, but can never get down to a good deck idea beyond stealth bleed. And while I love tool-boxy decks, I can just never seem to get a good mix of things whenever I try Lasombra. > > Beatrice is a solid midcap. > > No she's not. She doesn't have Obt, meaning so S:CE for her. > > > Marconius has votes, strength and the > > reducing cost special. > > He costs 9, if you want to play vote Lasombras are better, he's too big for > a s'n'b deck, and although it's tempting to try fighting decks with him, it > isn't, of course, very good. > As for his special, it is only useful with Myt cards that cost blood : > Basilisk's touch is very marginal, Steal the Mind is pure crap, and Redcap > Wilder could be nice in trick decks but isn't really needed for good bleeds. > So Marconius won't see the nightlight in most of my Kiasyd decks. > > > Okay, I grant you, Kassiym Malikhair isn't that > > hot, though fairly solid disciplines for a 6 cap. > > lol. Well, he was pretty good in G2 !! OBT + MYT means he can play Stone > Travel as well as Shroud of Absence, Fae Contortion + S:CE, and even just > with Obt / Dom he was comparable to Lasombra 6-Cap ; not anymore, obviously. > His special just baffles me, really. I mean, just who is he supposed to be playing with? Royce? Mitchel the Headhunter? If he was in-clan like Ramona, I could see it being a much better ability. Oh well, there are a ton of specials out there that just never actually get used. But I do agree that he has solid disciplines for his clan. I may use him more in my next Kiasyd incarnation, now that the guantlet has sort of been thrown to make an effective G2 Kiasyd deck (though Quincy may sneak into it anyway :P ) > > Perhaps the biggest star in the new Kiasyd is Quincy, since his special > > so messes with the Imbued. And since he's group 3, he easily meshes in > > with the 'old schoool' Kiasyd. > > Agreed, but then he's also a very good friend of G4s so let's not mention > him here. > > > Omme is a mini-Marconius, > > No. Ohme is a 7-cap bleeder with both stealth disciplines at sup and, > barring Gratiano, 3 votes. The fact he pays one less blood for cards that > are mostly free or uninteresting is a cornercase issue here. > Yes, for some reason I had thought there was more cards than just the three that had a cost. It is very cornercase now that it's more clear to me. I have a habit of not looking at blood costs of cards until I play with them in hand, then go 'wow, that's expensive!' ... really not a good habit to have, I know ... happened the first time I played with Basilisk's Touch, and it hasn't graced a Kiasyd deck of mine since. :P > > and > > Pherydima's untap is pretty nifty. > > Yes. But the more nifty part is that she already has inf Obt, as Bart, but > at least she has DOM ! And although I'd prefer her without a Bishop title > (for Anarchy) it's one more vote ; she was the only one in G4 with Obt / Nec > but it looks like we're getting more (although I want even moooooore !!). > Yes, funny that you of all people would put down Bartholomew! More Necromancy is always good, I agree. And sacrilage of sacrilage, I had a bunch of Necromancy cards damaged beyond use a while back, so have to build back up ... and I so want to play a deck based around Necromancy. > > Roderick's equip is a bit iffy, at > > least for me, as I don't often play that much equipment with Kiasyd, > > though I don't deny it's potentially useful with the right deck. > > Agreed. Still, another 7-Cap, this time with DOM. > > > Though > > I do admit that Dame Hollerton outshines Beatrice. > > By far. > > > But to say they're vastly superior to the older Kiasyd? > > Yes they are. They have much better discipline synergy, the average crypt is > lower (G2 = 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 / 5 = 7, G4 = 5 + 7 + 7 + 8 / 4 = 6,75), the > better spread of DOM means they will come out cheaper and faster ; the only > two downsides are : only 5 G3-G4 as of now (but as some of the others were > really not good it isn't that much of a downside) and the absence of > crosstable effect without Julia (but then you have more votes so you can > deal to some extent). On the whole, they are much, much more competitive. > Hmm, still not sure I would say they are so much better, but then it depends on the deck construction too. The G4 ones do seem to mesh well together, and I admit that I like that they have access to more votes, though I'll probably still pack Poison Pill. But I do agree that their lack of a 5th group 4 does mean that they could become even better than they are now. I suppose part of the problem is that I didn't own enough of the new Kiasyd to make a deck based around them, at least not without a strong Lasombra presence to back them up. I recently bought some more LoB, and have been lucky enough to up my stock of the new Kiasyd, so I think I'll design a couple of decks and see which group I have more success with. I was also hoping for some 'oh wow' stuff with the new ones, and beyond Quincy, just didn't see it, so was a little disappointed that way. But I shall put aside my preconceptions and give the new ones a try. > > Nope, just > > don't buy it. Even with the new ones, I still play with the originals. > > Good for you. You have the right to like them. But please don't try telling > us the G2, as a clan, were better than the G4 : they are good for the spirit > in which they were, officially, conceived : as additions to other "main" > clans. > Oh, never meant to give that impression, I was just so taken aback by the apparent claim that the new ones were so vastly superior than the originals that I guess I got a little reactionary. You have opened my eyes a little to the new ones, and I can see greater synergy within the clan than the original 5. I suppose I just have a soft spot for Bartholomew and Julia :P > > I do like most of the new cards ... Song of Pan is great! > > Of course. > > > Still not > > sure I have a use for the Redcap, though. Suppose it works well if > > you're looking to get into more fights with them. > > Not worth it. > > Of course you're missing one of the best Myt cards : Fae Contortion !! > Well, the conversation was more on G2 Kiasyd compared to G4, more than a general discussion of them, but so totally agree! I so need more of that card ... but I immediately made a Kiasyd 'can't catch me' deck, stealthy, maneuvers and Fae Contortions to get out of most combat situations, and Folderol to foil small bleeds for edge/ousts. It's great foiling those lumbering grapplers :P I also really like Covincraft, though admit I haven't needed to use it for the votes yet, but just waiting for the day! > > In fact, I found most of the new bloodline vamps to be not as good as > > the originals. > > Too long to develop now for me, but too wide a statement to be true. Just as > examples : Tupdogs and Blood Sisters offer totally new possibilities. For > the rest, we'd have to compare vamp / on vamp ; trouble being that the G4 > bloodlines currently hold one less vamp than G2, Gargoyles, Blood Brothers > and Scarce clans excepted. > Do notice I said most, not all. And yes, it is a bit difficult to fully compare, considering that there are less G4 vamps for most clans compared to their G2 counterparts.Yes, there are some really nice new ones. Tupdogs are strong, I admit, though I doubt I'll ever actually use them myself (just not a fan of weenie decks). I have yet to make a Blood Brother deck, owing to the fact that I've only recently had enough of the Chicago Circle to even try to make a competitive deck, though would rather play with the Torrence Circle. Up to 7 of the Blood Sisters, so still a ways to go to even consider trying them out. I think the Salubri/!Salubri made off with the best, can't really say anything bad about Saulot, and his synergy with the !Salubri is extra good. Eurayle is pretty solid, though Mr. Noir is weak. I like Muricia, but the other Ahrimanes left me unimpressed. And I suppose the Harbingers didn't do too badly either. The Daughters aren't too bad, but found their intitial lack of MEL to be problematic. Plus I can't use Arika with them :P Though I've made a VTES online combat Daughter deck with the new ones, and it did better than I expected, so will look into them more. So need more Death of the Drums too. Gargoyles are hard to compare. Tupdog is great for the !Tremere, by far better than Pugfar. And with only 2 Camarilla ones, can't really compare them to the host of G2 ones. I found the Samedi suffered a lot, though you'll probably disagree with me as they got more NEC out of it. :P > > The only ones I found to be on a truely equal footing > > are the Scarce clans, > > Salubri are good, Trujahs have some use although I'm still fan of some > strategies available only to the previous ones. > > > except for the Nagaraja, who I just find > > especially lacking. > > Always did, always will. This clan is the "scarcestest" ever, only Le Din > Tho really exists ! ;-) > I'm still a fan of Kanimana myself too. And Raful isn't bad either, though no star, I agree. of the new ones, Prejudice is too conditional. Sennadurek is a good one, though basic dom isn't strong. And Yavu? I can't envision many action worth cancelling for the cost of 2 blood and at least 2 pool (to bring him back out) ... an unblocked PTO, I suppose, and maybe an ousting bleed if you're caught without bounce. > > And the !Salubri are an exception to this, of > > course, suddenly leaping forward into a very playable and powerful > > bloodline. > > Yes, although it relies a lot in the new G3 vamp and the new cards, so now > I've actually seen some good G2-G3 !Salubri decks too !! :-) > -- So far it's pretty much just been G3-G4 !Salubri (usually with Saulot) in our play group. I believe one player a while back tried G2 again for a weenie combat deck with a bunch of Brother in Arms, though never seemed to get anywhere. > Orpheus > ----------------------- > I'm dead serious ! Well, mostly dead... Chris, Thrall of Arika

(snip all the "Orpheus opened my eyes" part) ;-) > > Yes. But the more nifty part is that she already has inf Obt, as Bart, but > > at least she has DOM ! And although I'd prefer her without a Bishop title > > (for Anarchy) it's one more vote ; she was the only one in G4 with Obt / Nec > > but it looks like we're getting more (although I want even moooooore !!). > > > Yes, funny that you of all people would put down Bartholomew! lol. As I said, in the right decks he can be nice, if nothing else because there isn't much choice with those disciplines, really. > More > Necromancy is always good, I agree. And sacrilage of sacrilage, I had a > bunch of Necromancy cards damaged beyond use a while back, so have to > build back up ... and I so want to play a deck based around Necromancy. Please do, and let me know how it turned out ! > You have opened my eyes a little to the new ones, and I can see greater > synergy within the clan than the original 5. I suppose I just have a > soft spot for Bartholomew and Julia :P Oh, I can understand that ! ;-) Especially Julia... > > > In fact, I found most of the new bloodline vamps to be not as good as > > > the originals. > > > > Too long to develop now for me, but too wide a statement to be true. Just as > > examples : Tupdogs and Blood Sisters offer totally new possibilities. For > > the rest, we'd have to compare vamp / on vamp ; trouble being that the G4 > > bloodlines currently hold one less vamp than G2, Gargoyles, Blood Brothers > > and Scarce clans excepted. > > > Do notice I said most, not all. All right. > And yes, it is a bit difficult to fully > compare, considering that there are less G4 vamps for most clans > compared to their G2 counterparts.Yes, there are some really nice new > ones. Tupdogs are strong, I admit, though I doubt I'll ever actually > use them myself (just not a fan of weenie decks). They are quite costly compared to weenies : you need to get !Trems out too, and pay for new Tuppies every turn... I can foretell a synergy with the new !Trems, I'm gonna enjoy this... > I have yet to make a > Blood Brother deck, owing to the fact that I've only recently had > enough of the Chicago Circle to even try to make a competitive deck, > though would rather play with the Torrence Circle. I have 3 Truman and 1 Jerry for trade, if you're interested we can talk about it when you get your 3rd Ed vamps. :-) > Up to 7 of the Blood > Sisters, so still a ways to go to even consider trying them out. I > think the Salubri/!Salubri made off with the best, can't really say > anything bad about Saulot, and his synergy with the !Salubri is extra > good. Eurayle is pretty solid, though Mr. Noir is weak. Yes, but inexpensive, and there was already Miriam Benyona in G2. > I like Muricia, but the other Ahrimanes left me unimpressed. I totally think that the old ones were better, but the new ones allow for different combos with other clans. > And I > suppose the Harbingers didn't do too badly either. They're nice, and quite different. > The Daughters aren't > too bad, but found their intitial lack of MEL to be problematic. Plus I > can't use Arika with them :P > > Though I've made a VTES online combat Daughter deck with the new ones, > and it did better than I expected, so will look into them more. So need > more Death of the Drums too. lol. Daughter fight uh ? Curious to see that work in the very hostile environment of Jyhad online... > Gargoyles are hard to compare. Tupdog is great for the !Tremere, by far > better than Pugfar. Different, Pugfar stays and can therefore be equipped ; you can play a few Tupdogs in a Pugfar deck, too ! > And with only 2 Camarilla ones, can't really > compare them to the host of G2 ones. Agreed, I don't understand that part, although maybe they'll just put a new one out too... > I found the Samedi suffered a lot, though you'll probably disagree with > me as they got more NEC out of it. :P No, I don't disagree. The best "new combo" is with Pot, but the vamps are expensive... Well, Samedi don't win anyway, but we can still like them. > > > The only ones I found to be on a truely equal footing > > > are the Scarce clans, > > > > Salubri are good, Trujahs have some use although I'm still fan of some > > strategies available only to the previous ones. > > > > > except for the Nagaraja, who I just find > > > especially lacking. > > > > Always did, always will. This clan is the "scarcestest" ever, only Le Din > > Tho really exists ! ;-) > > > I'm still a fan of Kanimana myself too. In theory I like her, in the real world I see very few reasons to play her, outside my fabled Necrauspexdomanarchvote deck. :D > And Raful isn't bad either, She's great in Nec / Obf / Dom decks (including decks with just Domain of Evernight for Krassimir, if you don't use Pot). > though no star, I agree. of the new ones, Prejudice is too conditional. Yes. > Sennadurek is a good one, though basic dom isn't strong. And although Aus is rarely useful when you have Dom ; but I see him in a team-up with the Harbingers, if you use few For, and a few surprise Conditionnings for him and Phagian... > And Yavu? I > can't envision many action worth cancelling for the cost of 2 blood and > at least 2 pool (to bring him back out) ... an unblocked PTO, I > suppose, and maybe an ousting bleed if you're caught without bounce. Yes. > > > And the !Salubri are an exception to this, of > > > course, suddenly leaping forward into a very playable and powerful > > > bloodline. > > > > Yes, although it relies a lot in the new G3 vamp and the new cards, so now > > I've actually seen some good G2-G3 !Salubri decks too !! :-) > > -- > So far it's pretty much just been G3-G4 !Salubri (usually with Saulot) > in our play group. Do those decks work ? Isn't Saulot too expensive ? >I believe one player a while back tried G2 again for > a weenie combat deck with a bunch of Brother in Arms, though never > seemed to get anywhere. Glad we had this little talk, -- Orpheus ------------------- "- You got married ? - Yes. - Why ? - Why do people get married ? - Passive aggressive neurosis." Matt Murdock and Natasha Romanovna

Orpheus wrote: > (snip all the "Orpheus opened my eyes" part) ;-) > *laughs* Yes, you have put me on the true path now :P > > More > > Necromancy is always good, I agree. And sacrilage of sacrilage, I had a > > bunch of Necromancy cards damaged beyond use a while back, so have to > > build back up ... and I so want to play a deck based around Necromancy. > > Please do, and let me know how it turned out ! > Well, will probably be a while before any success is had. I end up far too toolboxy with Necromancy and end up going nowhere. One angle I was thinking of trying is a Giovanni/Wraith kind of deck, but still just an idea in my head. > > And yes, it is a bit difficult to fully > > compare, considering that there are less G4 vamps for most clans > > compared to their G2 counterparts.Yes, there are some really nice new > > ones. Tupdogs are strong, I admit, though I doubt I'll ever actually > > use them myself (just not a fan of weenie decks). > > They are quite costly compared to weenies : you need to get !Trems out too, > and pay for new Tuppies every turn... I can foretell a synergy with the new > !Trems, I'm gonna enjoy this... > Bit of a spoiler in my next paragraph, so skip if you don't want to know :P Yes, that is very true ... and they would work nicely with Uta now wouldn't they? Send in a Tupdog or two to soften up a big juicy target, then send Uta in for the kill. And just read her full text in the spoiler thread ... rush AND reduces Thaumaturgy costs??? Definitely won't want to go second round with her. I'm in love! There's two of her in the precon, so I'm guessing precon only ... so have to pick up at least 2 !Tremere decks :P > > I have yet to make a > > Blood Brother deck, owing to the fact that I've only recently had > > enough of the Chicago Circle to even try to make a competitive deck, > > though would rather play with the Torrence Circle. > > I have 3 Truman and 1 Jerry for trade, if you're interested we can talk > about it when you get your 3rd Ed vamps. :-) > Got enough Jerry, but a Truman or two ... > > I like Muricia, but the other Ahrimanes left me unimpressed. > > I totally think that the old ones were better, but the new ones allow for > different combos with other clans. > True enough, which is a good thing, really ... there's no point in just recycling vamps and ideas ... which of course always makes comparisons difficult. Everyone has their own style of play, and so favour certain abilities over others. So of course some vampires become more valued to one player than another. > > And I > > suppose the Harbingers didn't do too badly either. > > They're nice, and quite different. > Again, don't have enough to make a decent G4 deck, and only recently tried a G2 deck that works nicely when it works, but sputters and fails when it doesn't. Though it has Kanimana in it! :P > > The Daughters aren't > > too bad, but found their intitial lack of MEL to be problematic. Plus I > > can't use Arika with them :P > > > > Though I've made a VTES online combat Daughter deck with the new ones, > > and it did better than I expected, so will look into them more. So need > > more Death of the Drums too. > > lol. Daughter fight uh ? Curious to see that work in the very hostile > environment of Jyhad online... > Only played one game to completion, so hard to really say if it's effective or not. Basically Daughters with celerity guns grafted on. Sayshilla is the star of the deck, it seems. Send in another Daughter, if someone blocks, Siren's Lure to Sayshilla with a .44 and Celerity (either masters or Drum of Xipe Topec), maneuver, shoot, additional, shoot again or Death of the Drum. Also has intercept too! Who would have thought? Blocking Daughters??? Just didn't help that the one game that actually finished was a heavy stealth one, with prey, predator and grand-predator all stealthing. So even with some okay intercept, the stealth just outdid it. Thinking of trying to squeeze in some rush cards now. It suffers in needing some set-up time, but can roll pretty well once up and ready. Will have to see what happens if I do face some dedicated combat decks. Just too bad I can't build it for local group play (at least, not without a lot of proxies). > > Gargoyles are hard to compare. Tupdog is great for the !Tremere, by far > > better than Pugfar. > > Different, Pugfar stays and can therefore be equipped ; you can play a few > Tupdogs in a Pugfar deck, too ! > That is true, Tupdog doesn't really 'replace' Pugfar. But I'm more a Camarilla Gargoyle kind of player. > > And with only 2 Camarilla ones, can't really > > compare them to the host of G2 ones. > > Agreed, I don't understand that part, although maybe they'll just put a new > one out too... > I guess they just felt that the non-unique Tupdogs made up for it. Don't begrudge them that much, seeing as how there's little support for !Tremere in G2 through Gargoyles. > > I found the Samedi suffered a lot, though you'll probably disagree with > > me as they got more NEC out of it. :P > > No, I don't disagree. The best "new combo" is with Pot, but the vamps are > expensive... Well, Samedi don't win anyway, but we can still like them. > Yeah, another 'lost cause' clan that I keep trying with and just never succeeding. Just too bad I'm more of a 'solid' player rather than a master player ... if I were, I might see better luck with such decks, but I keep trying anyway. > > > > The only ones I found to be on a truely equal footing > > > > are the Scarce clans, > > > > > > Salubri are good, Trujahs have some use although I'm still fan of some > > > strategies available only to the previous ones. > > > > > > > except for the Nagaraja, who I just find > > > > especially lacking. > > > > > > Always did, always will. This clan is the "scarcestest" ever, only Le > Din > > > Tho really exists ! ;-) > > > > > I'm still a fan of Kanimana myself too. > > In theory I like her, in the real world I see very few reasons to play her, > outside my fabled Necrauspexdomanarchvote deck. :D > I just like having the hand size, really ... she usually plays a very defensive role when I use her, gaining hand size and deflecting for the most part. > > > > And the !Salubri are an exception to this, of > > > > course, suddenly leaping forward into a very playable and powerful > > > > bloodline. > > > > > > Yes, although it relies a lot in the new G3 vamp and the new cards, so > now > > > I've actually seen some good G2-G3 !Salubri decks too !! :-) > > > -- > > So far it's pretty much just been G3-G4 !Salubri (usually with Saulot) > > in our play group. > > Do those decks work ? Isn't Saulot too expensive ? > I don't think any have swept tables yet, but Saulot can be pretty effective, especially with his ability to move blood down. Spirit Marionette/Heidelburg seems to be the combo-du-jour. With the right focus, he's a monster in combat too. Also seen him in play with Eurayle to Renew him back up. > >I believe one player a while back tried G2 again for > > a weenie combat deck with a bunch of Brother in Arms, though never > > seemed to get anywhere. > > Glad we had this little talk, > > -- > Orpheus Me too, been enjoying our discussions immensely! Chris, Thrall of Arika

Orpheus wrote: > > Wolflord wrote: > > > Actually, with SoP maybe this would be a good deck idea for > > > > group 3/4 Kiasyd, since I haven't found them to be more useful than > 2/3 > > > > yet. > > First, I don't get this comment at all. I don't see why that combo works > differently with G2 or G4 Kiasyds, as both can use Song of Pan ? Well, as you point out later, G4 is better at straight stealth bleed and G2 has a few set backs: Marconius is one cap too large, Bart only has one in-clan superior and Bea lacks obt. > > > Just allow me to comment on this: > > > "You haven't WHAT??" > > > uuhm, hello? > > > > > > I'm quite baffled by this. > > > Do you actually feel the group 2-3 Kiasyd make for equaly competitive > > > decks as would the group 3-4? I'm sorry, when I stated that I didn't find them "more useful" I never anywhere stated 'less compettitive'. So here's your kudos: Kiasyd '06 are nearly as good as Malk '94. Impressed yet? I'm certainly not. I've played this game off and on since Sabbat came out and we all know S&B wins. Been there, done that. I believe Kiasyd allow just a bit more (and can always fall back on "I dominate bleed you at stealth"). >the Kiasyd were > "nice" before, maybe just not as a whole clan : I included Julia and > sometimes Kassiym Malikhair (was a very good midcap Dom / Obt for G2...) in > Lasombra decks, and Bart + Beatrice in some weird necrauspex decks, but when > I tried in competitions to make a real Kiasyd deck I had to face facts : > they were just not good enough. Reasons detailed below. Yes, let's go over those. > > Can you really be saying the the group 2 Kiasyd are weak and > > unplayable? While I don't think the new Kiasyd are bad, I don't see > > them any more powerful or able than the original 5. Bartholomew is a > > bloodgain bouncing star, > > At least he looks like it. But he really isn't. Let's look at the options > that allow us to actually gain pool and use him for bounce (before 3rd Ed) > > - first he has to be untapped at the end of your turn (Metro Underground, > Mylan etc), already needs special setup) No set up necessary. Metro Underground allows him to take an action but will not gain you pool. Mylan is great, but not completely necessary. > - Telepathic Misdirection will tap him, so he can't use his special ; > meaning any bleed for more than 1 will render his special obsolete ; also, 2 > other Kiasyd have inf Aus, so they will need skills / Sanguine ; such setup > doesn't help with the flow of a s'n'b deck, trust me. > - He has inf Dom so he'll also tap with Deflections, and see above about the > necessary setup This is one of those occasions where TC is more useful than TM, add in Covincraft/Folderol and the pool should gain. However, if the bleed is too big why wouldn't I tap him with a deflection? And even basic Obedience is worth it here. > - the inf Dom also means that you'll have to pay 8 pool for a vamp who can't > govern down, and probably not be governed down in time (only Marconius could > do it, requires 3 turns to get out, see below) : the blood you think you > gain with his special in fact equals to blood and time you don't gain with > Governs, and that's very bad. Disagree. You will not always have the Governs, but Bart can always react and stay untapped to help you get Julia or Marconius into play to do them. > Not to mention that his inf Obt in a s'n'b deck isn't what I'd call "good > news"... Yeah, but his MYT is, but that is not a point to argue since he doesn't act until necessary ( for me that's usually the oust, or a Leather Jacket :)). > So as I said I'll only play him in trick decks, but have to insist that he's > not very competitive. This is where I think you are not paying attention to a certain point. If you are goiing to just S&B than Mytherceria only adds a little more to what the Lasombra can already attain. MYT happens to be a pretty toolboxy discipline, as is OBT (and, of course, DOM), so using the Kiasyd to just S&B isn't really playing them to their more robust potential. Bartholomew adds even more to this with AUS and his special. Plus Julia and Beatrice also share aus which allows responsible bleed and the ability to use some of the reaction cards that only Bart can use at Superior (but not wasted otherwise). > > Julia Prima is a bleeder extraordinaire. > > On that I can only agree, obviously, and she's currently the only reason why > I'd play G2 obt / dom s'n'b (along with fear of contest), but not in a full > kyasid deck. > > Also, she isn't that good in a kyasid deck : she can't use superior Aura > Absorption for stealth, Stone Travel against combat or Fae Contortion for > stealth... No, really, she's only a great Lasombra... without access to > Lasombra cards. :-? Yes, that is a pain, and is the reason I dedicate a few slots to remedying that, Sang Inst, Spontaneous Power. But Hollerton suffers the same fate without the great bleed specials that I am willing to pay 2 more for. > > Beatrice is a solid midcap. > > No she's not. She doesn't have Obt, meaning so S:CE for her. MYT, however, is the combat discipline for the Kiasyd as well as the better stealth, so she is solid enough. Of course, if you're just S&B then the Dame will be better but I'd rather have MYT than OBT. > > Marconius has votes, strength and the > > reducing cost special. > > He costs 9, if you want to play vote Lasombras are better, he's too big for > a s'n'b deck, and although it's tempting to try fighting decks with him, it > isn't, of course, very good. > As for his special, it is only useful with Myt cards that cost blood : > Basilisk's touch is very marginal, Steal the Mind is pure crap, and Redcap > Wilder could be nice in trick decks but isn't really needed for good bleeds. > So Marconius won't see the nightlight in most of my Kiasyd decks. Ahh, Marconius, the weakest (yet strongest?) of G2 Kiasyd. He and Omme suffer from one of the most useless specials in the game (only Marco seems to be paying more for it). The only Kiasyd in the game with all in clan superiors so having him out kicks ass, but getting him out is annoying. The outferior Goblinism is cool though (which Pherydima shares) and he is the only one who can even pretend to use Basilisk's Touch effectively. Blehh, why make a card like that for a clan that has access to Entombment? It gets beyond Grapple? Then why make Fae Contortion? Again I say Blehh! (Snip Kassiym discusion since its coming up again!) > > Omme is a mini-Marconius, > > No. Ohme is a 7-cap bleeder with both stealth disciplines at sup and, > barring Gratiano, 3 votes. The fact he pays one less blood for cards that > are mostly free or uninteresting is a cornercase issue here. For that that matter, bar any other Priscus (since Gratiano simply states 'Your votes are mine!'). But the real import here is that Omme is not a mini-Marco but a more expensive Kassiym with a crappy out of clan disc. The Priscus title is very nice, but what the hell is the celerity going to do for a Kiasyd? Manuevers - don't need 'em Dodges - don't need ;'em Presses - don't need 'em Additional strikes - when I can pay just one more blood for permanent additionals (and a press at superior) with Black Meta? Flurry or Distraction for card flow - how about Pandora's Whisper Bleed for one at one stealth - please At the very least fortitude stops Kiss of Ra (very effective for me in a couple of games). What's worse is that Roderick celerity as well, for more synergy I guess. > > and > > Pherydima's untap is pretty nifty. It'd be niftyer if she was Bart. And I do not really see what she can do with NEC that Bart couldn't do better (especially with Forrestal as a tricky partner). > > But to say they're vastly superior to the older Kiasyd? > > Yes they are. They have much better discipline synergy, the average crypt is > lower (G2 = 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 / 5 = 7, G4 = 5 + 7 + 7 + 8 / 4 = 6,75), the > better spread of DOM means they will come out cheaper and faster ; the only > two downsides are : only 5 G3-G4 as of now (but as some of the others were > really not good it isn't that much of a downside) and the absence of > crosstable effect without Julia (but then you have more votes so you can > deal to some extent). On the whole, they are much, much more competitive. I have played a few versions of Kiasyd G2 decks in the very competitive Los Angeles environment and had consistent success. I also played them in 5 tournaments in which they made all but 1 final and won 2 storyline events. That was all before LOB, I am even more happy with the design improvements that have been added since. G2 more competitive? Maybe not. More useful, definitely. Hell, I even made the Pulse/Grandest Trick deck with G2/3 (after LOB came out), played it in 2 games and won them both, promptly taken apart afterwards. > > Nope, just > > don't buy it. Even with the new ones, I still play with the originals. > > Good for you. You have the right to like them. But please don't try telling > us the G2, as a clan, were better than the G4 : they are good for the spirit > in which they were, officially, conceived : as additions to other "main" > clans. This may be true, but I rarely played them as additions. However, yet again, I will concede to the fact that G4 have better stealth bleed synergies. > > I do like most of the new cards ... Song of Pan is great! > > Of course. > > > Still not > > sure I have a use for the Redcap, though. Suppose it works well if > > you're looking to get into more fights with them. > > Not worth it. Oh, definitely worth it. With the best unconditional ranged attack for no cost and the ability to fuck with clerity guns and Ivory Bow usage, lovely. Not condoning the Redcap though, don't really care that much for it. > Of course you're missing one of the best Myt cards : Fae Contortion !! Agreed!! Though it still seemed like a way to make more acceptable the fact that Trickery and Shadow Step are hard to get rares that you need in numbers. The 2 biggest weaknesses of Kiasyd are S:CE and Votes. Covincraft helps a bit (and I used them very well to fail a couple of important ones during a game). But you never actually know what a Kiasyd player is going to do with their deck. Well, except that at some point they will dominate bleed at stealth.

> Orpheus wrote: > > > Wolflord wrote: > > > > Actually, with SoP maybe this would be a good deck idea for > > > > > group 3/4 Kiasyd, since I haven't found them to be more useful than > > 2/3 > > > > > yet. > > > > First, I don't get this comment at all. I don't see why that combo works > > differently with G2 or G4 Kiasyds, as both can use Song of Pan ? > > Well, as you point out later, G4 is better at straight stealth bleed > and G2 has a few set backs: Marconius is one cap too large, Bart only > has one in-clan superior and Bea lacks obt. Still has nothing to do with "Song of Pan seems to be combo with G3-G4". Song of Pan is good for Kiasyd, not especially for a group or the other ; now, a group might be better at what it does than the other, it's a whole different thing. > > > > Just allow me to comment on this: > > > > "You haven't WHAT??" > > > > uuhm, hello? > > > > > > > > I'm quite baffled by this. > > > > Do you actually feel the group 2-3 Kiasyd make for equaly competitive > > > > decks as would the group 3-4? > > I'm sorry, when I stated that I didn't find them "more useful" I never > anywhere stated 'less compettitive'. So useful for what if not winning games ? > So here's your kudos: Kiasyd '06 > are nearly as good as Malk '94. Impressed yet? I'm certainly not. I've > played this game off and on since Sabbat came out and we all know S&B > wins. Been there, done that. I believe Kiasyd allow just a bit more > (and can always fall back on "I dominate bleed you at stealth"). In the current metagame, Kiasyd can survive combat better than any other non-combattant deck, which is waaaaaay better than Malks. So yes, they impress me much more. > >the Kiasyd were > > "nice" before, maybe just not as a whole clan : I included Julia and > > sometimes Kassiym Malikhair (was a very good midcap Dom / Obt for G2...) in > > Lasombra decks, and Bart + Beatrice in some weird necrauspex decks, but when > > I tried in competitions to make a real Kiasyd deck I had to face facts : > > they were just not good enough. Reasons detailed below. > > > Yes, let's go over those. Let's. > > > Can you really be saying the the group 2 Kiasyd are weak and > > > unplayable? While I don't think the new Kiasyd are bad, I don't see > > > them any more powerful or able than the original 5. Bartholomew is a > > > bloodgain bouncing star, > > > > At least he looks like it. But he really isn't. Let's look at the options > > that allow us to actually gain pool and use him for bounce (before 3rd Ed) > > > > - first he has to be untapped at the end of your turn (Metro Underground, > > Mylan etc), already needs special setup) > > No set up necessary. Metro Underground allows him to take an action but > will not gain you pool. Mylan is great, but not completely necessary. Because you don't plan to use him actively often. Which I can't even begin to accept for a vamp costing 8. If I want a vamp with superior Auspex just for reactions I'll include someone else (I won't win a pool but I will have paid 4-5 less, so...). > > - Telepathic Misdirection will tap him, so he can't use his special ; > > meaning any bleed for more than 1 will render his special obsolete ; also, 2 > > other Kiasyd have inf Aus, so they will need skills / Sanguine ; such setup > > doesn't help with the flow of a s'n'b deck, trust me. > > > - He has inf Dom so he'll also tap with Deflections, and see above about the > > necessary setup > > This is one of those occasions where TC is more useful than TM, add in > Covincraft/Folderol and the pool should gain. Agreed. But as you say I've "been there, done that" and the number of slots required compared to the efficiency pointed me to the obvious conclusion : it's not worth it. > However, if the bleed is > too big why wouldn't I tap him with a deflection? And even basic > Obedience is worth it here. Sure. So now we're talking, what, 20+ reactions ? It might be a deck where Bart will be a nice Main Guy, but a) we're not talking in a full-kiasyd deck and b) it doesn't work that well anyway compared to Dom and deflects. > > - the inf Dom also means that you'll have to pay 8 pool for a vamp who can't > > govern down, and probably not be governed down in time (only Marconius could > > do it, requires 3 turns to get out, see below) : the blood you think you > > gain with his special in fact equals to blood and time you don't gain with > > Governs, and that's very bad. > > Disagree. You will not always have the Governs, but Bart can always > react and stay untapped to help you get Julia or Marconius into play to > do them. > > > Not to mention that his inf Obt in a s'n'b deck isn't what I'd call "good > > news"... > > Yeah, but his MYT is, but that is not a point to argue since he doesn't > act until necessary ( for me that's usually the oust, or a Leather > Jacket :)). I can't conceive having a vamp that costs 8 and doesn't act, unless we're talking wall + fight of course. > > So as I said I'll only play him in trick decks, but have to insist that he's > > not very competitive. > > This is where I think you are not paying attention to a certain point. Paying attention to what ? You're doing the lesson ? I guess you rather meant that I didn't notice something, I don't know if english is your native language so I'll assume it wasn't meant to be offensive. > If you are goiing to just S&B than Mytherceria only adds a little more > to what the Lasombra can already attain. Stone Travel + Fae Contortion adds resilience to fight ; Aura Absorption and Covincraft add polyvalence ; Song of Pan add bleed power. Sounds like a lot more to me. > MYT happens to be a pretty > toolboxy discipline, as is OBT (and, of course, DOM), so using the > Kiasyd to just S&B isn't really playing them to their more robust > potential. It is playing them to their full bleeding potential, but you got me hooked, let's see... > Bartholomew adds even more to this with AUS and his special. More to WHAT ? Toolboxyness that doesn't win ? Difficulty of making a good crypt sharing the same disciplines ? You'll end up with how many Aus cards that some of your vamps can play and no one but him can play at Sup without a skill ? > Plus Julia and Beatrice also share aus which allows responsible bleed > and the ability to use some of the reaction cards that only Bart can > use at Superior (but not wasted otherwise). If you want to go the Revelations way, throw Bart out, play Julia + Talley, eventually gerard and some smaller guys. I've tried it, it isn't as good as a better crypt without Aus would be but it works to some extent ; Bart would be a waste in such a deck. > > > Julia Prima is a bleeder extraordinaire. > > > > On that I can only agree, obviously, and she's currently the only reason why > > I'd play G2 obt / dom s'n'b (along with fear of contest), but not in a full > > kyasid deck. > > > > Also, she isn't that good in a kyasid deck : she can't use superior Aura > > Absorption for stealth, Stone Travel against combat or Fae Contortion for > > stealth... No, really, she's only a great Lasombra... without access to > > Lasombra cards. :-? > > Yes, that is a pain, and is the reason I dedicate a few slots to > remedying that, Sang Inst, Spontaneous Power. But Hollerton suffers the > same fate without the great bleed specials that I am willing to pay 2 > more for. > > > > Beatrice is a solid midcap. > > > > No she's not. She doesn't have Obt, meaning so S:CE for her. > > MYT, however, is the combat discipline for the Kiasyd as well as the > better stealth, so she is solid enough. Of course, if you're just S&B > then the Dame will be better but I'd rather have MYT than OBT. Dame costs 5 !! No possible comparison. [ quoted text not captured ] Except that if the priscus is your opponent, you still counter his votes so it's good. But a priscus among your allies counters your votes (or you his), yes. > But the real import here is that Omme > is not a mini-Marco but a more expensive Kassiym with a crappy out of > clan disc. The Priscus title is very nice, but what the hell is the > celerity going to do for a Kiasyd? > > Manuevers - don't need 'em > Dodges - don't need ;'em > Presses - don't need 'em > Additional strikes - when I can pay just one more blood for permanent > additionals (and a press at superior) with Black Meta? > Flurry or Distraction for card flow - how about Pandora's Whisper > Bleed for one at one stealth - please > > At the very least fortitude stops Kiss of Ra (very effective for me in > a couple of games). What's worse is that Roderick celerity as well, for > more synergy I guess. Agreed. Anyway Kassyim was one of the best G2 Kikis, and Omme's title is a very good addition, I prefer him for 1 more point. > > > and > > > Pherydima's untap is pretty nifty. > > It'd be niftyer if she was Bart. And I do not really see what she can > do with NEC that Bart couldn't do better (especially with Forrestal as > a tricky partner). Except Anarch Necromancy, she can do it all as well, so I don't get your point. She's better than Bart discipline-wise, and I prefer her special. The Bishop title is more an insult than anything (1 vote and no Anarchy possible ? Bleah !). > > > But to say they're vastly superior to the older Kiasyd? > > > > Yes they are. They have much better discipline synergy, the average crypt is > > lower (G2 = 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 / 5 = 7, G4 = 5 + 7 + 7 + 8 / 4 = 6,75), the > > better spread of DOM means they will come out cheaper and faster ; the only > > two downsides are : only 5 G3-G4 as of now (but as some of the others were > > really not good it isn't that much of a downside) and the absence of > > crosstable effect without Julia (but then you have more votes so you can > > deal to some extent). On the whole, they are much, much more competitive. > > I have played a few versions of Kiasyd G2 decks in the very competitive > Los Angeles environment and had consistent success. I also played them > in 5 tournaments in which they made all but 1 final and won 2 storyline > events. That was all before LOB, I am even more happy with the design > improvements that have been added since. G2 more competitive? Maybe > not. More useful, definitely. Define useful ? > Hell, I even made the Pulse/Grandest > Trick deck with G2/3 (after LOB came out), played it in 2 games and won > them both, promptly taken apart afterwards. Nice. Certainly not the easiest-working deck ever. Oh, if you want my Grandest Tricks I have some for trade... ;-) > > > Nope, just > > > don't buy it. Even with the new ones, I still play with the originals. > > > > Good for you. You have the right to like them. But please don't try telling > > us the G2, as a clan, were better than the G4 : they are good for the spirit > > in which they were, officially, conceived : as additions to other "main" > > clans. > > This may be true, but I rarely played them as additions. However, yet > again, I will concede to the fact that G4 have better stealth bleed > synergies. I don't get your point. Nothing in your posts suggests any other way to play the kiasyds than s'n'b. The GT + Pulse deck you were talking about is just another variant on s'n'b with some unblockability. If you like the fighting, toolboxy aspects of the Kiasyds, you can also play them with G4 and will probably find that they have better synergy too !! > > > I do like most of the new cards ... Song of Pan is great! > > > > Of course. > > > > > Still not > > > sure I have a use for the Redcap, though. Suppose it works well if > > > you're looking to get into more fights with them. > > > > Not worth it. > > Oh, definitely worth it. With the best unconditional ranged attack for > no cost and the ability to fuck with clerity guns and Ivory Bow usage, > lovely. Not condoning the Redcap though, don't really care that much > for it. ?? Mate, either you're totally unclear when you make an argument, or I'm totally not on your wavelength ! How do the clan's abilities to strike at range relate to the Redcap's use ? He'll survive combat ? Great ! But you'll have to equip with him to meager effect. But a trick deck with looooots of him and some Signet of King Saul (+ Heidelberg) might be very funny indeed, just : it's cornercase. What I meant was that I wouldn't include a few of him in a "classical" s'n'b deck. > > Of course you're missing one of the best Myt cards : Fae Contortion !! > > Agreed!! Though it still seemed like a way to make more acceptable the > fact that Trickery and Shadow Step are hard to get rares that you need > in numbers. > > The 2 biggest weaknesses of Kiasyd are S:CE and Votes. Agreed, I'd love to make a voting deck with them. Well, I guess that what their Lasombra friends are here for, right ? > Covincraft helps > a bit (and I used them very well to fail a couple of important ones > during a game). But you never actually know what a Kiasyd player is > going to do with their deck. Well, except that at some point they will > dominate bleed at stealth. Stealth bleed, then. A few toolboxy cards won't change that. If you make them more combat-like it just probably won't be a very good deck compared to more efficient archetypes (although it might work to some extent, in no small part due to surprise). I'm sorry to say that nothing in your post suggests any strategy where G2s would be better than G4s as a clan (can't tell yet about Nec because I'm waiting to see how other vamps combine with Phery, but anyway the clan as a whole isn't concerned here ; and don't think I didn't try to play Dom / Nec / Obt / Myt / Aus / Whatever, eventually with Ian and Anarchy, but as you probably guessed... it wasn't very good !!). ;-) -- Orpheus ------------------------- "You'll regret being so damn abusive when the electric UFO gods transphase in from dimension ten to appoint me manager of the universe". The Drummer, in Planetary.

Orpheus wrote: > > Orpheus wrote: > > > > Wolflord wrote: > > > > > Actually, with SoP maybe this would be a good deck idea for > > > > > > group 3/4 Kiasyd, since I haven't found them to be more useful > than > > > 2/3 > > > > > > yet. > > > > > > First, I don't get this comment at all. I don't see why that combo works > > > differently with G2 or G4 Kiasyds, as both can use Song of Pan ? > > > > Well, as you point out later, G4 is better at straight stealth bleed > > and G2 has a few set backs: Marconius is one cap too large, Bart only > > has one in-clan superior and Bea lacks obt. > > Still has nothing to do with "Song of Pan seems to be combo with G3-G4". > Song of Pan is good for Kiasyd, not especially for a group or the other ; > now, a group might be better at what it does than the other, it's a whole > different thing. How is it a "whole different thing" when there is a negative attached to SoP? If you can get the job done then the negative does not effect you. You will not always have a Grandest Trick in hand (and the Imbued don't care) so stealth bleeding will overcome. > > No set up necessary. Metro Underground allows him to take an action but > > will not gain you pool. Mylan is great, but not completely necessary. > > Because you don't plan to use him actively often. Which I can't even begin > to accept for a vamp costing 8. If I want a vamp with superior Auspex just > for reactions I'll include someone else (I won't win a pool but I will have > paid 4-5 less, so...). Only 3 vamps in the game have AUS and cost 5 less. One cannot reliably bleed and none of them can use MYT/Kiasyd cards; of the ones that cost 4 less they still cannot play MYT/Kiasyd cards. If I am playing mostly or all Kiasyd this would seem an important detail (this conversation is about a comparison between groups of Kiasyd is it not?). Bartholomew can (and will) act, his special allows you to have more flexibility with reacting (as opposed to "I have a Blood Doll on this vamp so I'll hunt with him 'cause I need pool"). A lot of decks are based upon reacting, few can do both well. Kiasyd decks are an exception. > > > - Telepathic Misdirection will tap him, so he can't use his special ; > > > meaning any bleed for more than 1 will render his special obsolete ; > also, 2 > > > other Kiasyd have inf Aus, so they will need skills / Sanguine ; such > setup > > > doesn't help with the flow of a s'n'b deck, trust me. > > > > > - He has inf Dom so he'll also tap with Deflections, and see above about > the > > > necessary setup > > > > This is one of those occasions where TC is more useful than TM, add in > > Covincraft/Folderol and the pool should gain. > > Agreed. But as you say I've "been there, done that" and the number of slots > required compared to the efficiency pointed me to the obvious conclusion : > it's not worth it. Offense is better than defense, that's a given. Bart's special with Kiasyd/MYT cards assistance can be very "worth it", however. Passive block decks can be emulated by the Kiasyd as well as block combat decks. The toolboxness of cards like Aura Absorption, Fae Contortion, Absorb the Mind and Covincraft (even Darkling Trickery) are useful for both block/react and bleed at stealth/deal with combat. Malks are jealous. > > However, if the bleed is > > too big why wouldn't I tap him with a deflection? And even basic > > Obedience is worth it here. > > Sure. So now we're talking, what, 20+ reactions ? It might be a deck where > Bart will be a nice Main Guy, but a) we're not talking in a full-kiasyd deck > and b) it doesn't work that well anyway compared to Dom and deflects. Considering that S&B decks have at least twice as many modifiers (if not three times) then I do not see the problem. If you are bleeding for 1-4 and I am reducing it by 1-3 and gaining a pool a turn then you've got your work cut out for you. If I can see you play with a lot of stealth then I'll just let you choke on it, and if you bleed me for 5+ then I'll just happily tap and deflect. With the course that the game is headed (making combat more viable) I believe that the Kiasyd will shine even more since Obedience and 'fight back' are all a part of the Kiasyd itinerary (with Bartholomew as a standing member). > I can't conceive having a vamp that costs 8 and doesn't act, unless we're > talking wall + fight of course. Yes you can because he can also bleed you out with dominate at stealth, and require less focused cards to do so. > > > So as I said I'll only play him in trick decks, but have to insist that > he's > > > not very competitive. > > > > This is where I think you are not paying attention to a certain point. > > Paying attention to what ? You're doing the lesson ? I guess you rather > meant that I didn't notice something, I don't know if english is your native > language so I'll assume it wasn't meant to be offensive. If I meant to be offensive you'd know it. However, the lack of noticing a certain point or idea was perfectly stated in the sentence. If English is not your native language then I will concede to something more 'appropriate' (your command of the language belies this necessity, however). I do happen to be a teacher and an English major, but a horrible typist so do not judge me on my occasional typos and grammatical bumblings (damn no editing in Google Groups!) as they bug me more than anybody else. > > If you are goiing to just S&B than Mytherceria only adds a little more > > to what the Lasombra can already attain. > > Stone Travel + Fae Contortion adds resilience to fight ; Aura Absorption and > Covincraft add polyvalence ; Song of Pan add bleed power. Sounds like a lot > more to me. The Lasombra can use the first two plus Shroud of Absence (yes, yes FC is much better with MYT). Aura Absorption is truly only polyvalent if you can successfuly block, and if you are just stealth bleeding then Covincraft will not do that much for you. Song of Pan would be your only true argument, but it (and Covincraft) does not require mytherceria, which the statement above was stating. > > MYT happens to be a pretty > > toolboxy discipline, as is OBT (and, of course, DOM), so using the > > Kiasyd to just S&B isn't really playing them to their more robust > > potential. > > It is playing them to their full bleeding potential, but you got me hooked, > let's see... Arrgh! Do you do anything but stealth and bleed? It's great, it wins games, dominate is good, is there any reason to argue about anything when the answer is this clear? I really do enjoy the fact that White Wolf is trying to make combat more effective, but if S&B is all you can think of then you can just die to perma-rush. > > Bartholomew adds even more to this with AUS and his special. > > More to WHAT ? Toolboxyness that doesn't win ? Difficulty of making a good > crypt sharing the same disciplines ? You'll end up with how many Aus cards > that some of your vamps can play and no one but him can play at Sup without > a skill ? Not sure what to answer first (pretty drunk right now, but everybody who knows me knows that). As far as I can tell G2/3 share the same disciplines, even more so since out of clan aus is prevalent. A half a dozen TC's are impossible for you to imagine? Toolbox resilience/bleed can and does win games but more so with the Kiasyd since they are the royalty when it comes to cards with multi-uses. > > Plus Julia and Beatrice also share aus which allows responsible bleed > > and the ability to use some of the reaction cards that only Bart can > > use at Superior (but not wasted otherwise). > > If you want to go the Revelations way, throw Bart out, play Julia + Talley, > eventually gerard and some smaller guys. I've tried it, it isn't as good as > a better crypt without Aus would be but it works to some extent ; Bart would > be a waste in such a deck. What's with this statement? I agree; it isn't as good. Revelations at basic is all you need for the concept to work (3 of G2) though I have not bothered with it as of yet. > > > > Beatrice is a solid midcap. > > > > > > No she's not. She doesn't have Obt, meaning so S:CE for her. > > > > MYT, however, is the combat discipline for the Kiasyd as well as the > > better stealth, so she is solid enough. Of course, if you're just S&B > > then the Dame will be better but I'd rather have MYT than OBT. > > Dame costs 5 !! No possible comparison. No possible comparison to another 5 cap? How is this an argument? > > > > Omme is a mini-Marconius, > > > > > > No. Ohme is a 7-cap bleeder with both stealth disciplines at sup and, > > > barring Gratiano, 3 votes. The fact he pays one less blood for cards > that > > > are mostly free or uninteresting is a cornercase issue here. > > > > For that that matter, bar any other Priscus (since Gratiano simply > > states 'Your votes are mine!'). > > Except that if the priscus is your opponent, you still counter his votes so > it's good. But a priscus among your allies counters your votes (or you his), > yes. Of course, so what does Gratiano have to do with it? Again: barring ANY other Priscus Omme has 3 votes. The statement still holds true. Gratiano is just a bitch. > > But the real import here is that Omme > > is not a mini-Marco but a more expensive Kassiym with a crappy out of > > clan disc. The Priscus title is very nice, but what the hell is the > > celerity going to do for a Kiasyd? > > > > Manuevers - don't need 'em > > Dodges - don't need ;'em > > Presses - don't need 'em > > Additional strikes - when I can pay just one more blood for permanent > > additionals (and a press at superior) with Black Meta? > > Flurry or Distraction for card flow - how about Pandora's Whisper > > Bleed for one at one stealth - please > > > > At the very least fortitude stops Kiss of Ra (very effective for me in > > a couple of games). What's worse is that Roderick celerity as well, for > > more synergy I guess. > > Agreed. Anyway Kassyim was one of the best G2 Kikis, and Omme's title is a > very good addition, I prefer him for 1 more point. I would as well, but the argument for G2 still holds. Celerity is pretty much a useless out-of-clan for Kiasyd. > > > > and > > > > Pherydima's untap is pretty nifty. > > > > It'd be niftyer if she was Bart. And I do not really see what she can > > do with NEC that Bart couldn't do better (especially with Forrestal as > > a tricky partner). > > Except Anarch Necromancy, she can do it all as well, so I don't get your > point. She's better than Bart discipline-wise, and I prefer her special. The > Bishop title is more an insult than anything (1 vote and no Anarchy possible > ? Bleah !). Well, she does work better with the Giovanni but I do not see her as 'better' in any other way. Bart has access to Forestal, Le Dinh Tho, and anarchy. Her special is only good for reactions (which stealth bleed only bounces with) and Bartholomew seems to be 'better' at that (not bouncing but reacting). Metro Underground makes him better than her, whereas the only equivalent for her to equalize is Blood Doll, which doesn't cut the same. > > > > But to say they're vastly superior to the older Kiasyd? > > > > > > Yes they are. They have much better discipline synergy, the average > crypt is > > > lower (G2 = 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 / 5 = 7, G4 = 5 + 7 + 7 + 8 / 4 = 6,75), > the > > > better spread of DOM means they will come out cheaper and faster ; the > only > > > two downsides are : only 5 G3-G4 as of now (but as some of the others > were > > > really not good it isn't that much of a downside) and the absence of > > > crosstable effect without Julia (but then you have more votes so you can > > > deal to some extent). On the whole, they are much, much more > competitive. On paper this seems to be true, but I definitely enjoy the possibilities offered to me by G2 over G4. But, again, Kiasyd '06 may be more effective than Malk '94. > > I have played a few versions of Kiasyd G2 decks in the very competitive > > Los Angeles environment and had consistent success. I also played them > > in 5 tournaments in which they made all but 1 final and won 2 storyline > > events. That was all before LOB, I am even more happy with the design > > improvements that have been added since. G2 more competitive? Maybe > > not. More useful, definitely. > > Define useful ? Useful TO ME. Meaning I can create more interesting decks than just S&B, which they can always do when it comes down to it. > > Hell, I even made the Pulse/Grandest > > Trick deck with G2/3 (after LOB came out), played it in 2 games and won > > them both, promptly taken apart afterwards. > > Nice. Certainly not the easiest-working deck ever. Oh, if you want my > Grandest Tricks I have some for trade... ;-) Perhaps you missed the "promptly taken apart afterwards" part of that anecdote. I do have some Grandest Tricks that I'd be willing to trade to you if you are so inspired to need some ;) > > > > Nope, just > > > > don't buy it. Even with the new ones, I still play with the originals. > > > > > > Good for you. You have the right to like them. But please don't try > telling > > > us the G2, as a clan, were better than the G4 : they are good for the > spirit > > > in which they were, officially, conceived : as additions to other "main" > > > clans. > > > > This may be true, but I rarely played them as additions. However, yet > > again, I will concede to the fact that G4 have better stealth bleed > > synergies. > > I don't get your point. Nothing in your posts suggests any other way to play > the kiasyds than s'n'b. The GT + Pulse deck you were talking about is just > another variant on s'n'b with some unblockability. > > If you like the fighting, toolboxy aspects of the Kiasyds, you can also play > them with G4 and will probably find that they have better synergy too !! All this has been covered, I still believe G2 to have more advantages. Not to say that I won't look into a fighty G4, but it will require Thoughts Betrayed and that ain't cheap! > > > > I do like most of the new cards ... Song of Pan is great! > > > > > > Of course. > > > > > > > Still not > > > > sure I have a use for the Redcap, though. Suppose it works well if > > > > you're looking to get into more fights with them. > > > > > > Not worth it. > > > > Oh, definitely worth it. With the best unconditional ranged attack for > > no cost and the ability to fuck with clerity guns and Ivory Bow usage, > > lovely. Not condoning the Redcap though, don't really care that much > > for it. > > ?? Mate, either you're totally unclear when you make an argument, or I'm > totally not on your wavelength ! How do the clan's abilities to strike at > range relate to the Redcap's use ? He'll survive combat ? Great ! But you'll > have to equip with him to meager effect. How are we having an argument here? I merely stated that the Kiasyd can fight but the Wilder had nothing to do with the situation (and I'm not impressed with him yet, though I have not traded away the 4 I have). > But a trick deck with looooots of him and some Signet of King Saul (+ > Heidelberg) might be very funny indeed, just : it's cornercase. What I meant > was that I wouldn't include a few of him in a "classical" s'n'b deck. > > > > Of course you're missing one of the best Myt cards : Fae Contortion !! > > > > Agreed!! Though it still seemed like a way to make more acceptable the > > fact that Trickery and Shadow Step are hard to get rares that you need > > in numbers. > > > > The 2 biggest weaknesses of Kiasyd are S:CE and Votes. > > Agreed, I'd love to make a voting deck with them. Well, I guess that what > their Lasombra friends are here for, right ? Probably. I made a voting Kiasyd deck, that seemed okay on paper, entered it in a tournament and got my ass kicked (even after somebody Succubus Clubed all their shit to me before they got ousted!). G4 may have a better chance with that idea. > > Covincraft helps > > a bit (and I used them very well to fail a couple of important ones > > during a game). But you never actually know what a Kiasyd player is > > going to do with their deck. Well, except that at some point they will > > dominate bleed at stealth. > > Stealth bleed, then. A few toolboxy cards won't change that. If you make > them more combat-like it just probably won't be a very good deck compared to > more efficient archetypes (although it might work to some extent, in no > small part due to surprise). My definition of 'useful' has already transcended these suggestions. I believe that toolboxing any deck will be more necessary as this game evolves, and the Kiasyd have the best tools to endure. > I'm sorry to say that nothing in your post suggests any strategy where G2s > would be better than G4s as a clan (can't tell yet about Nec because I'm > waiting to see how other vamps combine with Phery, but anyway the clan as a > whole isn't concerned here ; and don't think I didn't try to play Dom / Nec > / Obt / Myt / Aus / Whatever, eventually with Ian and Anarchy, but as you > probably guessed... it wasn't very good !!). ;-) You, of all people, would have tried Pherydima out in a NEC situation if it seemed worth it. Sure, waiting may be a wise choice to cover potentials, but I can die tomorrow knowing that Bart was a better choice. Robert Scythe

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, does it work this way or not? Can you order it so that Julia can gain the blood after the action and grandest trick wears off?

[ quoted text not captured ] No. Perfectionist says "when this vampire..."