(recap + Q) (LSJ) Winged Second

Winged Second [LoB:R] Cardtype: Reaction Discipline: Flight [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be. Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion entering combat. C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight. [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior. First part - Confirmations needed - Vampire C is not in combat, hence he cannot play non-strike combat cards, such as Carrion Crows, Disarm, or even any prevent card. - Vampire C is still a vampire not in the combat, so he can play Legacy of Power. - If A is a vampire, Vampire C isn't "opposite vampire" to vampire A, so Rötschreck cannot be played on C if A attempts to deal aggravated damage to C. For the same reason, Rötschreck cannot be played on Vampire A if C attempts to deal aggravated damage to A. - If someone strikes with Eye of the Unforgiving Haven, C will suffer 0 damage from this strike. - Vampire C cannot use strikes only usable at long range. - If Vampire C is Lorrie, she would only hit once. - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage due to that strike. - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. --- Second part - answers needed - If C's strike is a Mighty Grapple sup', is the press lost? - Can C use strikes "that are not usable during the first round" during the first round? during any round but the first? (even though I can't find any corresponding card) - Can C prevent 1 damage with a Guardian Angel? - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike? - If A's strike is a Dodge, B's strike is something (not very important), and C's strike is an Anesthetic Touch. Does combat stop immediately after resolving those strikes? I presume the reason to the answers to those question is pretty much the same each time (more or less "C isn't in combat, so having a press is useless / ..."). Maybe to be continued, I can't see anything else to add, right now. (thanks to Jozxyqk for pre-clearing things)

correction : > > - If Vampire C is Lorrie, she would only hit once. > should be "If Vampire C is a Brujah Antitribu with a Sword of Judgement, he can only strike once. (since Lorrie can't play Winged Second)

On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: > Winged Second [LoB:R] > Cardtype: Reaction > Discipline: Flight > [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat > with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this > minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a > strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution > (as if at close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage > prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion. > This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal > blood as a retainer could be. > > Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion > entering combat. > C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight. > [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine > vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has > received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior. > > First part - Confirmations needed > > - Vampire C is not in combat, hence he cannot play non-strike combat > cards, such as Carrion Crows, Disarm, or even any prevent card. Correct. (confirmed that C does not enter the combat here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/77188843abf5b28c?hl=en&) > - Vampire C is still a vampire not in the combat, so he can play > Legacy of Power. Correct. (same as above) > - If A is a vampire, Vampire C isn't "opposite vampire" to vampire A, > so Rötschreck cannot be played on C if A attempts to deal aggravated > damage to C. For the same reason, Rötschreck cannot be played on > Vampire A if C attempts to deal aggravated damage to A. Correct. C is not in the combat, and does not count for any effect that target a minion 'in combat' or 'the opposing minion'. > - If someone strikes with Eye of the Unforgiving Haven, C will suffer > 0 damage from this strike. Incorrect. Per card text "This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be." Eye of Unforgiving Heaven specifically damages all retainers. > - Vampire C cannot use strikes only usable at long range. This is explicit in the text: 'this minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike' - there are no hand or melee strikes only usable at long range (and only a Kerrie can be even used at long range.) > - If Vampire C is Lorrie, she would only hit once. Again, explicit by text: "this minion may make _A_ hand or melee weapon strike". > - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is > striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage > due to that strike. Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ. > - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not protect retainers per the rules.) > --- > > Second part - answers needed > > - If C's strike is a Mighty Grapple sup', is the press lost? Yes. > - Can C use strikes "that are not usable during the first round" > during the first round? during any round but the first? (even though I > can't find any corresponding card) I would think that their strike choice is restricted by the round, but LSJ will need to answer it. > - Can C prevent 1 damage with a Guardian Angel? No. They are not in combat and thus cannot prevent the damage (read it as '1 each combat that they are in'.) > - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike? No. Nothing on Winged Second says that the retainers of C have any effect on the combat (and thus an Owl Companion on C would not reveal their hand, Dog Packs wouldn't prevent S:CE, etc etc.) > - If A's strike is a Dodge, B's strike is something (not very > important), and C's strike is an Anesthetic Touch. Does combat stop > immediately after resolving those strikes? Interesting question. LSJ? > I presume the reason to the answers to those question is pretty much > the same each time (more or less "C isn't in combat, so having a press > is useless / ..."). > > Maybe to be continued, I can't see anything else to add, right now. > (thanks to Jozxyqk for pre-clearing things) -John Flournoy

John Flournoy wrote: > On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion >> entering combat. >> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight. >> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine >> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has >> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior. John's answers are correct except as amended below: [ quoted text not captured ] Perhaps. But not if the vampire is being targeted as a retainer, which seems to be the case, since that would mean the damage is unpreventable. [6.4.7] >> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. > > C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a > hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on > the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since > they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not > protect retainers per the rules.) > >> --- >> >> Second part - answers needed >> >> - If C's strike is a Mighty Grapple sup', is the press lost? > > Yes. > >> - Can C use strikes "that are not usable during the first round" >> during the first round? during any round but the first? (even though I >> can't find any corresponding card) > > I would think that their strike choice is restricted by the round, but > LSJ will need to answer it. Correct. >> - Can C prevent 1 damage with a Guardian Angel? > > No. They are not in combat and thus cannot prevent the damage (read it > as '1 each combat that they are in'.) > >> - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike? > > No. Nothing on Winged Second says that the retainers of C have any > effect on the combat (and thus an Owl Companion on C would not reveal > their hand, Dog Packs wouldn't prevent S:CE, etc etc.) > >> - If A's strike is a Dodge, B's strike is something (not very >> important), and C's strike is an Anesthetic Touch. Does combat stop >> immediately after resolving those strikes? > > Interesting question. LSJ? Yes, combat ends after resolving Anesthetic Touch at [obe] or [OBE]. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > - If someone strikes with Eye of the Unforgiving Heaven, C will suffer > > 0 damage from this strike. > > Incorrect. Per card text "This minion may be the target of effects > that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be." Eye of > Unforgiving Heaven specifically damages all retainers. Eye of Unforgiving Heaven inflicts 2 damage to demon retainers. Do you mean C is considered a "demon retainer" ? > > - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is > > striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage > > due to that strike. > > Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a > minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being > applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ. LJ specifies "opposing minion's strike". It is not mentioned on WS that A's strikes towards C are considerated as if A was C's opposing minion. > > > - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. > > C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a > hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on > the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since > they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not > protect retainers per the rules.) Same debate there has been long ago, Immortal Grapple vs Stutter Step. Since Stutter Step is a Dodge, it is not allowed as a strike, per WS's card text. > > Second part - answers needed > > - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike? > > No. Nothing on Winged Second says that the retainers of C have any > effect on the combat (and thus an Owl Companion on C would not reveal > their hand, Dog Packs wouldn't prevent S:CE, etc etc.) Owl Companion and Dog Pack mention "opposing minion". Ghoul Retainer doesn't.

On Aug 20, 1:29 pm, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. > > > C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a > > hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on > > the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since > > they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not > > protect retainers per the rules.) > > Same debate there has been long ago, Immortal Grapple vs Stutter Step. > Since Stutter Step is a Dodge, it is not allowed as a strike, per WS's > card text. Stutter-Step cannot be played if "only hand strikes (or only dodges) are allowed". Winged Second allows hand or melee weapon strikes, which is not "only hand strikes", so Stutter-Step is probably allowed. witness1

witness1 wrote: > On Aug 20, 1:29 pm, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. >>> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a >>> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on >>> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since >>> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not >>> protect retainers per the rules.) >> Same debate there has been long ago, Immortal Grapple vs Stutter Step. >> Since Stutter Step is a Dodge, it is not allowed as a strike, per WS's >> card text. Stutter-Step vs. Immortal Grapple debate resulted in: "strike: hand strike + dodge" is a hand strike and thus is allowed by Immortal Grapple's card text. That result is why the text on Stutter-Step's own card text was changed in subsequent printings to self-restrict if strikes are restricted to hand strikes. > Stutter-Step cannot be played if "only hand strikes (or only dodges) > are allowed". Winged Second allows hand or melee weapon strikes, which > is not "only hand strikes", so Stutter-Step is probably allowed. Winged Second may strike: Stutter-Step, yes.

LSJ wrote: > John Flournoy wrote: >> On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion >>> entering combat. >>> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight. >>> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine >>> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has >>> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior. >>> - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is >>> striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage >>> due to that strike. >> >> Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a >> minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being >> applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ. > > Perhaps. But not if the vampire is being targeted as a retainer, which > seems to be the case, since that would mean the damage is unpreventable. > [6.4.7] ... which seems to contradict text on Infection and Martyr's Resilience. ERRATA: The following sentences are to be removed from the rulebook: section 6.4.6: "Damage to retainers cannot be prevented.' section 6.4.7: "Such strikes cannot be dodged, and damage done to retainers cannot be prevented." Those sentences are intended to mean that the strike/damage targeting a retainer is not affected by the employer's dodge nor prevented by "prevent X damage (inflicted on myself)" effects played by the employer. That is, they are not intended to add anything themselves, but rather they merely clarify/reiterate the conditions given/implied by 6.4.5.Dodge and normal "prevent X damage" effects. The Winged Second can use Leather Jacket to prevent the strike damage. And so: >>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. >> >> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a >> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on >> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since >> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not >> protect retainers per the rules.) C's dodge will protect C (although it will not protect B, since B is not the dodging minion).

On Aug 20, 3:50 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > John Flournoy wrote: > >> On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion > >>> entering combat. > >>> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight. > >>> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine > >>> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has > >>> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior. > >>> - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is > >>> striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage > >>> due to that strike. > > >> Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a > >> minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being > >> applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ. > > > Perhaps. But not if the vampire is being targeted as a retainer, which > > seems to be the case, since that would mean the damage is unpreventable. > > [6.4.7] > > ... which seems to contradict text on Infection and Martyr's Resilience. Well, we've always been okay with card text contradicting rules text before... > ERRATA: > The following sentences are to be removed from the rulebook: > > section 6.4.6: > "Damage to retainers cannot be prevented.' > > section 6.4.7: > "Such strikes cannot be dodged, and damage done to retainers cannot be prevented." > > Those sentences are intended to mean that the strike/damage targeting a retainer > is not affected by the employer's dodge nor prevented by "prevent X damage > (inflicted on myself)" effects played by the employer. That is, they are not > intended to add anything themselves, but rather they merely clarify/reiterate > the conditions given/implied by 6.4.5.Dodge and normal "prevent X damage" effects. > > The Winged Second can use Leather Jacket to prevent the strike damage. > > And so: > > >>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step. > > >> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a > >> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on > >> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since > >> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not > >> protect retainers per the rules.) > > C's dodge will protect C (although it will not protect B, since B is not the > dodging minion). ...but this result makes sense. witness1

"witness1" <jwnew...@bellsouth.net> a écrit dans le message de news:1187640411.8...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > > ... which seems to contradict text on Infection and Martyr's Resilience. > > Well, we've always been okay with card text contradicting rules text > before... especially with the golden rule for cards " 1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence. " which already handles quite well Infection and Martyr's Resilience, so why go for a rather obscure change in the rulebook itself ? Why not instead add an online clarification on Leather Jacket or Winged Second, either on the ERC page or in the card texts, it'd be less of a hassle (and for the sake of brief and clear sentences in the rulebook, as they are at the moment). Stone

[ quoted text not captured ] Because neither Infection nor Maryr's Resilience makes the unpreventable damage preventable. See also Skin of Rock vs. Weather Control. "Less of a hassle" than "completely trivial change of making the rulebook fit player intuition to have the same net result as players already play"? That's hard to imagine.