[6.2]
"If one attempt to block is unsuccessful, another attempt can be made.
If no more attempts are made, then the action is successful, and the
cost of the action is paid."
This sounds like "when you decline to block, the action is successful
and its cost is paid".
[6.2.2]
"Note that declining to block does not prevent a Methuselah from
playing reaction cards later during the action."
This sounds like "reactions (and implicitly action modifiers) can be
played after declining to block".
[6.2.2.2]
If a block fails (the acting minion's stealth exceeds the blocker's
intercept and the blocker's Methuselah cannot add or does not wish to
add more intercept), either another attempt is made (with the same or
a different minion) or the defending Methuselah declares that she will
not make any further attempts to block the action. Note that this
declaration is an event and so allows the acting Methuselah (and
others) to play more cards and effects.
This seems to restate [6.2.2], saying that once the defending
Methuselah declines to block, there is time to play more effects.
[6.2.3]
If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful),
then the cost of the action is paid, and the effects of the successful
action take place.
This again sounds like [6.2], saying "once all block attempts fail,
the cost of the action is paid and its effects occur".
[6.2] and [6.2.3] seem at first contradictory to [6.2.2] and
[6.2.2.2], because an action modifier usually doesn't do much when an
action is already successful. It looks like if you bleed, then once
they don't block, you must pay the blood. Conditioning is too late,
it's time for Freak Drive. And that's not how the game is currently
played.
Are the following correct?:
I call "Protect Thine Own." I have 1 blood. The action isn't
blocked, the referendum occurs. By now, I don't have the blood
anymore (paid the cost of PTO when all declined to block me) so I
can't play Awe to gain more than 1 vote.
I Kine Dominance bleed someone with Didi Meyers, who has 2 blood. By
[6.2] and [6.2.3] above, it seems like once my prey declines to block,
I pay the 2 cost. Although I may still play Bonding, Threats etc. by
[6.2.2] or [6.2.2.2], I cannot play Conditioning (to reduce my blood
to 1 and make the action fail) because I now have 0 blood (the cost of
Kine Dominance having been paid once the blockers declined).
This is all well and good, but what about Deflections played after the
cost is paid? It seems like [6.2] and [6.2.3] are misleading. If
I've been playing correctly, an action isn't declared successful until
long after it's gone unblocked.
What are [6.2] and [6.2.3] about, besides confusing newbies?
____________
Also, relatedly, the rulebook states in [6.2.2.2] that "this
declaration is an event and so allows the acting Methuselah (and
others) to play more cards and effects."
According to this, the defending Methuselah may make that declaration.
From a previous post, we know that the acting Methuselah may declare
the action blocked.
Who declares the action over, and that it's too late to play
modifiers?
--Brian
"Brian" <firstco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:80bafd85.02061...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Correct.
> I Kine Dominance bleed someone with Didi Meyers, who has 2 blood. By
> [6.2] and [6.2.3] above, it seems like once my prey declines to block,
> I pay the 2 cost. Although I may still play Bonding, Threats etc. by
> [6.2.2] or [6.2.2.2], I cannot play Conditioning (to reduce my blood
> to 1 and make the action fail) because I now have 0 blood (the cost of
> Kine Dominance having been paid once the blockers declined).
You could play Conditioning at any time during the action, but if you pay
for Conditioning before the action is declared successful and then can't pay
the cost of Kine Dominance the whole action fizzles.
> This is all well and good, but what about Deflections played after the
> cost is paid? It seems like [6.2] and [6.2.3] are misleading. If
> I've been playing correctly, an action isn't declared successful until
> long after it's gone unblocked.
I don't see anything misleading about either. [6.2] simply says that you can
try to block as many times as you like. If all block attempts fail then the
action is successful. The cost of the action is then paid. [6.2.3] Simply
says what happens when an action is successful, you pay the cost and the
effects take place.
> What are [6.2] and [6.2.3] about, besides confusing newbies?
> ____________
>
> Also, relatedly, the rulebook states in [6.2.2.2] that "this
> declaration is an event and so allows the acting Methuselah (and
> others) to play more cards and effects."
>
> According to this, the defending Methuselah may make that declaration.
Of course. [6.2.2.2] deals with the defending Meth's choice to decline to
attempt any further blocks, the acting Meth can hardly make that
declaration. It then goes on to state that this is an event and hence the
acting Meth may play further cards.
> From a previous post, we know that the acting Methuselah may declare
> the action blocked.
>
> Who declares the action over, and that it's too late to play
> modifiers?
The acting Meth always gets first option to play cards but as soon as
someone plays a card, someone else can play a card in response. It usually
goes, acting Meth then defending Meth, back and forth until both don't want
to play cards anymore, but that's not always the case. Everyone eligible
plays cards until no-one wants to play any cards anymore. The action begins
to resolve when no-one wants to play more cards and the action is over when
it has finished resolving ( pool has been removed, vampire is burned,
vampire gets Masochism etc ).
It almost sounds like, if you are bleeding someone, you must play your
bleeding modifiers before he decides to block. And that is certainly not how
the game is played out.
-Martin
Brian <firstco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:80bafd85.02061...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
news:ugdba1c...@news.supernews.com...
> The acting Meth always gets first option to play cards but as soon as
> someone plays a card, someone else can play a card in response. It usually
> goes, acting Meth then defending Meth, back and forth until both don't
want
> to play cards anymore, but that's not always the case. Everyone eligible
> plays cards until no-one wants to play any cards anymore.
If you mean what I think you do, that's not quite right.
By [1.6.1.6] "Sequencing" the acting Meth always goes first
when more than one player wants to play a card or effect.
So no one else can play any cards/effects until the acting
Meth has played all the effects she wants to. (The exception
is effects that need to be played as "interrupts", eg Direct
Intervention.)
If someone else *does* then play an effect, acting Meth again
gets the next opportunity to play more effects. Then, others
can "respond" to those again, and so on, until everyone's
tired of playing effects. :-)
Other than that, I think all your interpretations here were
right.
Josh
well ordered
Joshua Duffin wrote:
>
> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> news:ugdba1c...@news.supernews.com...
>
> > The acting Meth always gets first option to play cards but as soon as
> > someone plays a card, someone else can play a card in response. It usually
> > goes, acting Meth then defending Meth, back and forth until both don't
> want
> > to play cards anymore, but that's not always the case. Everyone eligible
> > plays cards until no-one wants to play any cards anymore.
>
> If you mean what I think you do, that's not quite right.
>
> By [1.6.1.6] "Sequencing" the acting Meth always goes first
> when more than one player wants to play a card or effect.
> So no one else can play any cards/effects until the acting
> Meth has played all the effects she wants to. (The exception
> is effects that need to be played as "interrupts", eg Direct
> Intervention.)
Correct. The "exception" is just an example of the acting
Methuselah not being able to use 1.6.1.6 to skip steps.
For instance, you can't play Fake Out without giving your
opponent the opportunity to play Drawing Out the Beast.
Likewise, you cannot play a second card without giving the
other players to play "as X is played" effects on the first.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ae8786$4seic$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> news:ugdba1c...@news.supernews.com...
>
> > The acting Meth always gets first option to play cards but as soon as
> > someone plays a card, someone else can play a card in response. It
usually
> > goes, acting Meth then defending Meth, back and forth until both don't
> want
> > to play cards anymore, but that's not always the case. Everyone eligible
> > plays cards until no-one wants to play any cards anymore.
>
> If you mean what I think you do, that's not quite right.
Yeah, I forgot to also add that the acting Meth can play as many cards as
(s)he likes before others can play cards, but of course there's also timing
windows for special cases like DI.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> Are the following correct?:
> I call "Protect Thine Own." I have 1 blood. The action isn't
> blocked, the referendum occurs. By now, I don't have the blood
> anymore (paid the cost of PTO when all declined to block me) so I
> can't play Awe to gain more than 1 vote.
>
> I Kine Dominance bleed someone with Didi Meyers, who has 2 blood. By
> [6.2] and [6.2.3] above, it seems like once my prey declines to block,
> I pay the 2 cost. Although I may still play Bonding, Threats etc. by
> [6.2.2] or [6.2.2.2], I cannot play Conditioning (to reduce my blood
> to 1 and make the action fail) because I now have 0 blood (the cost of
> Kine Dominance having been paid once the blockers declined).
I know I just posted these, but I was hoping for LSJ's input.
I believe the answer to the second question is obvious (nobody plays
Conditioning after the cost of Kine Dominance is played) but it seems
as though the rulebook indicates otherwise. Perhaps there is
something I missed?
More generally, more importantly, does anyone care about this sort of
post, consistancy/intelligibility of the rules? Or is this something
which is better left up to the rules team and LSJ?
I mean, I think it's interesting, but if I'm boring you guys or taxing
your patience, I'll stop. :(
[ quoted text not captured ]
Brian wrote:
>
> > Are the following correct?:
> > I call "Protect Thine Own." I have 1 blood. The action isn't
> > blocked, the referendum occurs. By now, I don't have the blood
> > anymore (paid the cost of PTO when all declined to block me) so I
> > can't play Awe to gain more than 1 vote.
> >
> > I Kine Dominance bleed someone with Didi Meyers, who has 2 blood. By
> > [6.2] and [6.2.3] above, it seems like once my prey declines to block,
> > I pay the 2 cost. Although I may still play Bonding, Threats etc. by
> > [6.2.2] or [6.2.2.2], I cannot play Conditioning (to reduce my blood
> > to 1 and make the action fail) because I now have 0 blood (the cost of
> > Kine Dominance having been paid once the blockers declined).
>
> I know I just posted these, but I was hoping for LSJ's input.
The rulebook is designed to teach a player how to play the game as well
as to be a reference. Therefore some of the sections are written with
the goal of understanding being weighted higher than the goal of
reference precision.
[6.2] doesn't say that no effects can be played between the time that
"no more blocks are made" and "the cost is paid". Likewise [6.2.3].
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D0A3457...@white-wolf.com>...
> Brian wrote:
> >
> > > Are the following correct?:
> > > I call "Protect Thine Own." I have 1 blood. The action isn't
> > > blocked, the referendum occurs. By now, I don't have the blood
> > > anymore (paid the cost of PTO when all declined to block me) so I
> > > can't play Awe to gain more than 1 vote.> The rulebook is designed to teach a player how to play the game as well> as to be a reference. Therefore some of the sections are written with
> the goal of understanding being weighted higher than the goal of
> reference precision.
That makes sense.
> [6.2] doesn't say that no effects can be played between the time that
> "no more blocks are made" and "the cost is paid". Likewise [6.2.3].
So, how does the Awe thing work? Can I actually call Protect Thine
Own, play Awe on it for all my blood, and then not pay the cost of
PTO, making it unsuccessful? Or, is the cost paid before the
referendum begins, instead of after the action?
Mostly clarified,
--Brian
On 16 Jun 2002 16:51:16 -0700, firstco...@aol.com (Brian) wrote:
>> [6.2] doesn't say that no effects can be played between the time that
>> "no more blocks are made" and "the cost is paid". Likewise [6.2.3].>So, how does the Awe thing work?
After the action is unblocked, ie successful, you pay the cost, if
any, of the action and then proceed to the referendum. You may then
pay any or all of your blood for the Awe.
> Can I actually call Protect Thine Own, play Awe on it for all my blood,
> and then not pay the cost of PTO, making it unsuccessful?
No.
You pay the cost of the action when it is unblocked, ie when it is
successful, ie before you begin the referendum.
> Or, is the cost paid before the
>referendum begins, instead of after the action?
This one.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com