"Voter cap" for other disciplines?

Why are there no action modifiers other than Voter Captivation with an "Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire"-effect? Voice of the wild Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Animalism Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. [ani] Put this card on the acting vampire as an animal retainer with 1 life. This vampire gets +1 bleed when bleeding your prey. [ANI] Put this card in play under your control as an animal ally with 1 strength and 1 bleed. Mad cacklings Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Dementation Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. [dem] Burn 2 blood from a vampire that voted against the referendum. [DEM] Burn 2 blood from any vampire. Always remember, never forget Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Quitus Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. [qui] Put this card on the acting vampire. Burn this card to enter combat with a vampire which voted against the referendum as a D action. [QUI] Put this card on the vampire. Burn this card to enter combat with any vampire as a D action. Whispers from the past Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Necromancy Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. Remove this card from the game when it is played. [nec] If the action is successful, move one card played by this vampire during this action from your ash heap to your hand. Discard down to your hand size. [NEC] If the action is successful, move one card from your ash heap to your hand. Discard down to your hand size. Puzzling performance Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Chimerstry Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. [chi] Tap a ready vampire. [CHI] Put this card on any vampire. Tap that vampire; he or she does not untap as normal during his or her controller's untap phase. Burn this card during your next untap phase. Premonitions Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Auspex Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. [aus] Put this card on this vampire. You may burn this card when a bleed against you is successful to reduce the bleed by 2. [AUS] Put this card on this vampire. You may burn this card when a bleed against you is successful to reduce the bleed by 3. Discrediting words Cardtype: Action Modifier Clan: Ventrue antitribu Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. Put this card on any vampire. That vampire has -1 vote.

Ashur wrote: > Why are there no action modifiers other than Voter Captivation with an > "Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire"-effect? Cryptic Rider

[ quoted text not captured ] OK, you got a solid point there. But do you get mine? Why not more cards like this, for all disciplines? (I don´t mean they have to be as good as Voter Cap)

[ quoted text not captured ] So you think we need Voter Caps for all disciplines, but Grapple-likes only for disciplines that already have them ? I'd be curious to see the reasonning behind that. Orpheus

[ quoted text not captured ] The reasoning is that the "Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire"-effect (or prerequisite or what it should be called) is an entirely different thing than the "Opposing vampire cannot S:CE"-effect. Is that hard to understand? (Also, the effects I suggested was not gain blood/pool as the original Voter Cap.)

[ quoted text not captured ] I thought you were talking about Voter Cap duplicates. My bad. Roger, Roger.

[ quoted text not captured ] Because a "flavor of the month"-driven design philosophy does not necessarily serve the purpose of creating diverse and generally balanced strategies that are interesting to explore for the players. More often it just creates cosmetic differences.

[ quoted text not captured ] Eh? What are you talking about? By the same logic we would not have cards like Public Trust etc, because there already was a Legal Manipulations. Do all cards have to be "super innovative"? (And I think getting a small ally when the vote passes is very different from getting a bunch of blood/pool, but maybe that is just me.)

On 1 loka, 22:09, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1 Okt, 20:16, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Because a "flavor of the month"-driven design philosophy does not > > necessarily serve the purpose of creating diverse and generally > > balanced strategies that are interesting to explore for the players. > > More often it just creates cosmetic differences. > > Eh? What are you talking about? Design philosophy. > By the same logic we would not have > cards like Public Trust etc, because there already was a Legal > Manipulations. Do all cards have to be "super innovative"? Who says we *should* have Public Trust? Sure, sets need fillers but I would prefer the primary motivation behind new cards to be the creation of something new and differrent. > (And I > think getting a small ally when the vote passes is very different from > getting a bunch of blood/pool, but maybe that is just me.) My answer was to the question "why not more cards like this, for all disciplines?" I addressed the thinking behind your cards, not the cards themselves.

[ quoted text not captured ] I think that a good way to think about this kind of thing is to say: What phases of the game are opportunities for card design? Maybe the 'after resolving a successful referendum' is such an area. I'd like to see much more done with the ash heap as a resource, fr.ex. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

Orpheus wrote: > I thought you were talking about Voter Cap duplicates. My bad. > Roger, Roger. You just see Episode I or something? ;)

suoli wrote: > On 1 loka, 22:09, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 1 Okt, 20:16, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Because a "flavor of the month"-driven design philosophy does not >>> necessarily serve the purpose of creating diverse and generally >>> balanced strategies that are interesting to explore for the players. >>> More often it just creates cosmetic differences. >> >> Eh? What are you talking about? > > Design philosophy. > >> By the same logic we would not have >> cards like Public Trust etc, because there already was a Legal >> Manipulations. Do all cards have to be "super innovative"? > > Who says we *should* have Public Trust? Sure, sets need fillers > but I would prefer the primary motivation behind new cards to be > the creation of something new and differrent. So you don't want the disciplines to retain their essential flavor? <confused> [ quoted text not captured ]

On 2 loka, 01:16, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > suoli wrote: > > On 1 loka, 22:09, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 1 Okt, 20:16, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Because a "flavor of the month"-driven design philosophy does not > >>> necessarily serve the purpose of creating diverse and generally > >>> balanced strategies that are interesting to explore for the players. > >>> More often it just creates cosmetic differences. > > >> Eh? What are you talking about? > > > Design philosophy. > > >> By the same logic we would not have > >> cards like Public Trust etc, because there already was a Legal > >> Manipulations. Do all cards have to be "super innovative"? > > > Who says we *should* have Public Trust? Sure, sets need fillers > > but I would prefer the primary motivation behind new cards to be > > the creation of something new and differrent. > > So you don't want the disciplines to retain their essential flavor? > <confused> You sure are. [ quoted text not captured ]

Personally, I'm not so sure if there should be more "When the referendum succeeds" specifically... but more "usable during a referendum" or "referendum related" cards. I think cards like Yawp Court were very good (in concept). > Discrediting words > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Clan: Ventrue antitribu > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. > Put this card on any vampire. That vampire has -1 vote. This looks like it should be a political action available to everyone... Possibly something like this: Discredited Leader Political Action Playable by any vampire. Choose a controlled titled vampire. If this referendum is successful place this card on the chosen titled vampire. The vampire with this card cannot vote and cannot use cards requiring their title. The minion with this card may remove it by taking an undirected action to burn this card. > > Voice of the wild > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Animalism > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. > [ani] Put this card on the acting vampire as an animal retainer with 1 > life. This vampire gets +1 bleed when bleeding your prey. > [ANI] Put this card in play under your control as an animal ally with > 1 strength and 1 bleed. Animalism has good "go forward" now. Deep Song & Taunt the Caged Beast solved what remained of Animalism's real weaknesses. They block, have nasty streamlined combat, bleed reasonably (Tier of Souls, Deep Song)... Animalism is not that weak... > > Mad cacklings > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Dementation > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. > [dem] Burn 2 blood from a vampire that voted against the referendum. > [DEM] Burn 2 blood from any vampire. Not sure if this is needed? Probably should turn up during the "before votes cast" step really. > > Always remember, never forget > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Quitus > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. > [qui] Put this card on the acting vampire. Burn this card to enter > combat with a vampire which voted against the referendum as a D > action. > [QUI] Put this card on the vampire. Burn this card to enter combat > with any vampire as a D action. Blood of Retribution Reaction 1 blood Only usable after an action by your predator or prey which causes you to lose pool. [qui] Tap this reacting minion. The acting minion takes 1 unpreventable damage. [QUI] Tap this reacting minion. The acting minion enters combat with this reacting minion. > > Puzzling performance > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Chimerstry > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. > [chi] Tap a ready vampire. > [CHI] Put this card on any vampire. Tap that vampire; he or she does > not untap as normal during his or her controller's untap phase. Burn > this card during your next untap phase. Illusory Candidates Action Modifier Only usable during a referendum before votes are cast. [chi] This vampire gains 2 votes [CHI] Vampires voting against this referendum must burn 1 blood or tap. > > Premonitions > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Auspex > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. > [aus] Put this card on this vampire. You may burn this card when a > bleed against you is successful to reduce the bleed by 2. > [AUS] Put this card on this vampire. You may burn this card when a > bleed against you is successful to reduce the bleed by 3. > Yeah, I don't mind this... but I think it should read closer to "Telepathic Counter" in the text.

suoli wrote: > On 2 loka, 01:16, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >> suoli wrote: >>> On 1 loka, 22:09, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On 1 Okt, 20:16, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Because a "flavor of the month"-driven design philosophy does not >>>>> necessarily serve the purpose of creating diverse and generally >>>>> balanced strategies that are interesting to explore for the >>>>> players. More often it just creates cosmetic differences. >> >>>> Eh? What are you talking about? >> >>> Design philosophy. >> >>>> By the same logic we would not have >>>> cards like Public Trust etc, because there already was a Legal >>>> Manipulations. Do all cards have to be "super innovative"? >> >>> Who says we *should* have Public Trust? Sure, sets need fillers >>> but I would prefer the primary motivation behind new cards to be >>> the creation of something new and differrent. >> >> So you don't want the disciplines to retain their essential flavor? >> <confused> > > You sure are. Care to try a constructive reply?

[ quoted text not captured ] Odiferous Domination Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Dominate Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. Place this card on this acting vampire. This vampire has -1 stealth. [dom] The vampire with this card gets +1 bleed. [ANI] As above, but with +2 bleed. Excitement. best - chris

librarian wrote: > [ANI] As above, but with +2 bleed. > That should be DOM there of course. Poor cutting/pasting skills. bes t- chris

[ quoted text not captured ] Are you working towards a VTES: Unhinged set? Bad Curry Action Mod Presence 1 blood [pre] All blocking minions have -1 intercept. [PRE] As above, and must burn 1 blood before combat.

[ quoted text not captured ] No, I'm watching the whole Clone Wars animated series. Excellent ! Roger, Roger ! :) Orpheus

Kevin M. wrote: > Orpheus wrote: >> Ashur wrote: >>> On 1 Okt, 18:23, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>>> Ashur wrote: >>>>> Why are there no action modifiers other than Voter Captivation >>>>> with an "Only usable after resolving a successful referendum >>>>> called by this acting vampire"-effect? >>>> >>>> Cryptic Rider >>> >>> OK, you got a solid point there. But do you get mine? Why not more >>> cards like this, for all disciplines? (I don�t mean they have to be >>> as good as Voter Cap) >> >> So you think we need Voter Caps for all disciplines, but >> Grapple-likes only for disciplines that already have them? >> I'd be curious to see the reasonning behind that. > > I think that a good way to think about this kind of thing is to say: > What phases of the game are opportunities for card design? > > Maybe the 'after resolving a successful referendum' is such an area. > > I'd like to see much more done with the ash heap as a resource, fr.ex. Careful not to get too much on the Giovanni turf... Recursivity has got to stay limited, it is a powerful toy. Orpheus

librarian wrote: > > Odiferous Domination > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Dominate > Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this > acting vampire. Place this card on this acting vampire. This vampire > has -1 stealth. > [dom] The vampire with this card gets +1 bleed. > [DOM] As above, but with +2 bleed. > > Excitement. Horror. You really want Arika to bleed for a base 5 without even making an action for it ? Let's give her the cog to bleed for 6. She won't really care about the -1 stealth but in case sh could get a Blythe Acceptance. Ok, bleed in Govern + Conditionning on your turn (against Archons), that's 11. 12 for Lucian, but he's less likely to call a vote and untap. Let's forget that one please. Roger, Roger. Orpheus

On 2 loka, 02:34, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Care to try a constructive reply? No. I will reconsider if you rephrase your question properly.

On Oct 1, 3:30 pm, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1 loka, 22:09, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 1 Okt, 20:16, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Because a "flavor of the month"-driven design philosophy does not > > > necessarily serve the purpose of creating diverse and generally > > > balanced strategies that are interesting to explore for the players. > > > More often it just creates cosmetic differences. > > > Eh? What are you talking about? > > Design philosophy. Okay, let's talk design philosophy. It's quite reasonable to present discipline cards which allow something new to the discipline, but a prime feature of another discipline... but ONLY is the card is second rate. For example, obfuscate has No Trace now, giving it the ability to S:CE. However, compared to Majesty it's crap, so people looking to play a deck with S:CE are still going to consider playing with Presence as their top option. It's only decks that are already designed to use Obfuscate and not Presence that will care about it's existence. You don't want to go too far with that, but spreading some key things to a few more disciplines isn't a bad idea. Too often I've seen large vampires completely dismissed because they didn't have an untap discipline or they don't have a bounce discipline (although, Lost in Translation has reduced that a bit)... some options only available to large vampires in these areas would make a good number of vampires much more playable. There really is a shortage of options for what non-Presence disiplines can do with their ability to successfully pass votes... it isn't going to change the dominance of Presence to offer some lesser abilities to other disciplines, Presence would still be the a first choice of someone thinking about making a vote deck because Voter Cap is totally massive and Presence would give you other tools like the best options for pushing votes (if your deck should need that). But the options presented up top aren't this type of thing... they don't spread Voter Cap itself, they just give other disciplines access to the same window. So, if you're just making cards that are triggered off the same event as another discipline, and don't offer anything that the discipline doesn't already have (beyond the new opportunity to trigger that effect)... there's nothing really wrong with the design there either (providing that the cards are balanced... that Animalism one in the first post looks potentially broken (IMHO), especially with something like the Nossie Princes). You're not changing what any discipline "does", only offering a new way for that discipline to do it, which, in turn, gives new types of deck. In that regard, I think it would be nice to have some more necro-voting support (Oh no, the dead have risen and they're voting Giovanni). Brent Ross

On 2 loka, 15:41, bwross <bwr...@mail.com> wrote: > So, if you're just making cards that are triggered off the same event > as another discipline, and don't offer anything that the discipline > doesn't already have (beyond the new opportunity to trigger that > effect)... there's nothing really wrong with the design there either > (providing that the cards are balanced... that Animalism one in the > first post looks potentially broken (IMHO), especially with something > like the Nossie Princes). You're not changing what any discipline > "does", only offering a new way for that discipline to do it, which, > in turn, gives new types of deck. In that regard, I think it would be > nice to have some more necro-voting support (Oh no, the dead have > risen and they're voting Giovanni). > > Brent Ross My issue here is with the mentality of having a set of similarly themed cards for all the disciplines *for the sake of having them*. This can certainly result in the addition of something meaningful to the game but only incidentally. Meaningful changes should be the primary intent and goal in the first place, not something that gets fitted in if the theme allows it. Take a look at the five boon cards of Magic: the Gathering for a good cautionary tale. 5 cards were designed for each 5 "discipline" with the theme of 3x for the cost of 1. All of them are in character, two are sort of balanced, two are broken and one is wall paper.

>In that regard, I think it would be > nice to have some more necro-voting support (Oh no, the dead have > risen and they're voting Giovanni). > > Brent Ross YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS !!! And it's not as if fixed ballots with dead people voting has never been seen !irl...

[ quoted text not captured ] > Orpheus- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - There are other ways to use the ash heap as a resource besides bringing cards back to your hand or library. Trochomancy, Dis Pater and Drop Point Network area all examples. More cards like Trochomancy could still hurt the Giovanni's ability to be the best at recursion though. Later, ~Rehlow

[ quoted text not captured ] Sorry, it should have said: Stinky Giovanni Carrying the Rotting Corpse of xer Enemy on xer Back to Advise Xe Cardtype: Action Modifier Clan: Giovanni Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this acting vampire. Place this card on this acting vampire. This vampire has -1/2x stealth (rounding up) Take a minion in any Methuselah's ashheap and put it on this acting vampire. This minion represents a non-unique retainer with 1/4x life (rounding up), and gives this vampire X votes, where X is the capacity or cost of the minion. best - chris :0) ;-) :-)

[ quoted text not captured ] What turf? What Giovanni cards are used on a regular basis whose turf that concept would be stepping on? Oh that's right -- NONE. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Thanks, this is exactly what I meant with the original post. I´m actually surprised it could be misunderstood.

On Oct 2, 1:56 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Orpheus wrote: > > Kevin M. wrote: > >> Orpheus wrote: > >> I'd like to see much more done with the ash heap as a resource, > >> fr.ex. > > > Careful not to get too much on the Giovanni turf... > > > Recursivity has got to stay limited, it is a powerful toy. > > What turf? What Giovanni cards are used on a regular basis > whose turf that concept would be stepping on? > > Oh that's right -- NONE. Sudario Refraction. It totally rocks and definitely uses the ash heap as a resource. Brent Ross

On 2 Okt, 15:21, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote: > My issue here is with the mentality of having a set of similarly > themed cards for all the disciplines *for the sake of having them*. > This can certainly result in the addition of something meaningful to > the game but only incidentally. Meaningful changes should be the > primary intent and goal in the first place, not something that gets > fitted in if the theme allows it. Take a look at the five boon cards > of Magic: the Gathering for a good cautionary tale. 5 cards were > designed for each 5 "discipline" with the theme of 3x for the cost of > 1. All of them are in character, two are sort of balanced, two are > broken and one is wall paper. I never suggested cards for ALL the disciplines. My point is that I think this effect (act mod used on successful vote) could be used more, and I gave some examples to illustrate. Your MTG-argument I don´t get at all. What do you mean? All those cards came in the first set, back in -93 or something. Sure, one was broken and one was wallpaper, what has this to do with my post? Now, 15 years+ after Voter cap, we know how good Voter cap is, and I think it would be easy for a genius like LSJ to calculate just how a similar card could be for ani or nec :) Do you understand what I mean?

On Oct 2, 11:37 am, Rehlow <newsgr...@rehlow.com> wrote: > There are other ways to use the ash heap as a resource besides > bringing cards back to your hand or library. Trochomancy, Dis Pater > and Drop Point Network area all examples. More cards like Trochomancy > could still hurt the Giovanni's ability to be the best at recursion > though. Yeah, I said right from the beginning that it is a card that will potentionally draw cross table fire from the Giovanni just for showing you have at least one in your deck. The idea of someone removing 13 cards is kryptonite to them. They like to use their ash heap as a resource for recursion or fodder to build Shamblers... they really don't want anyone to mess with that at the level Trochomancy can. Brent Ross

On 2 loka, 22:35, LisaSwe <louise.hans...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2 Okt, 15:21, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > My issue here is with the mentality of having a set of similarly > > themed cards for all the disciplines *for the sake of having them*. > > This can certainly result in the addition of something meaningful to > > the game but only incidentally. Meaningful changes should be the > > primary intent and goal in the first place, not something that gets > > fitted in if the theme allows it. Take a look at the five boon cards > > of Magic: the Gathering for a good cautionary tale. 5 cards were > > designed for each 5 "discipline" with the theme of 3x for the cost of > > 1. All of them are in character, two are sort of balanced, two are > > broken and one is wall paper. > > I never suggested cards for ALL the disciplines. You did (assuming you are Ashur) ask the question "why not more cards like this, for all disciplines?" This is the question I replied to. Maybe you meant "more", not "all". That's fine. I hope you also understand why I got the idea that you did suggest cards for all the disciplines. > My point is that I > think this effect (act mod used on successful vote) could be used > more, and I gave some examples to illustrate. Okay. > Your MTG-argument I don´t get at all. What do you mean? All those > cards came in the first set, back in -93 or something. Sure, one was > broken and one was wallpaper, what has this to do with my post? Now, > 15 years+ after Voter cap, we know how good Voter cap is, and I think > it would be easy for a genius like LSJ to calculate just how a similar > card could be for ani or nec :) Do you understand what I mean? Yes. On the other hand, LSJ could just ignore the arbitrary constraints of a boon-like concept and make cards with the primary goal of improving the game. Of course, if you're not actually promoting the boon-concept the MTG-analogy is irrelevant.

On Oct 2, 9:21 am, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote: > My issue here is with the mentality of having a set of similarly > themed cards for all the disciplines *for the sake of having them*. Well, as I said in the paragraph above the one you quoted... you don't want to go too far with these things (you need to force some sort of limits that make for some tough choices on crypt selection... that's a balancing factor, too), but where there's plenty of room, there's opportunities to open up some new potential... the trick is figuring out who should get it. The way to answer that is to look where you might want to give a little push, either to make a deck that's just short of truly viable into a better contender, offer some variety to a deck that already is good, or to offer a little more incentive for people to try a rare deck archetype (I want my necro-vote!). Brent Ross

[ quoted text not captured ] I have seen *one deck* that uses Sudario Refraction. Perhaps I haven't seen more because I don't get around enough. I do agree, though, that it's an excellent card. I'd like to see cards that, fr.ex., allow you to use your ashheap instead of your library. Unusual things like that. A few of the Black-colored effects from That Other Game would work well. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> writes: > bwross wrote: > > On Oct 2, 1:56 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > >> Orpheus wrote: > >>> Kevin M. wrote: > >>>> Orpheus wrote: > >>>> I'd like to see much more done with the ash heap as a resource, > >>>> fr.ex. > >> > >>> Careful not to get too much on the Giovanni turf... > >> > >>> Recursivity has got to stay limited, it is a powerful toy. > >> > >> What turf? What Giovanni cards are used on a regular basis > >> whose turf that concept would be stepping on? > >> > >> Oh that's right -- NONE. > > > > Sudario Refraction. It totally rocks and definitely uses the ash heap > > as a resource. > > I have seen *one deck* that uses Sudario Refraction. Perhaps > I haven't seen more because I don't get around enough. It's a metagame thing, then. I see them all the time. And there are 35 decks in Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive that have Sudario Refractions. HG

"Janne H�gglund" wrote: > "Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> writes: > >> bwross wrote: >>> On Oct 2, 1:56 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >>>> Orpheus wrote: >>>>> Kevin M. wrote: >>>>>> Orpheus wrote: >>>>>> I'd like to see much more done with the ash heap as a resource, >>>>>> fr.ex. >>>> >>>>> Careful not to get too much on the Giovanni turf... >>>> >>>>> Recursivity has got to stay limited, it is a powerful toy. >>>> >>>> What turf? That part was more of a roleplaying joke thing. > What Giovanni cards are used on a regular basis >>>> whose turf that concept would be stepping on? >>>> >>>> Oh that's right -- NONE. >>> >>> Sudario Refraction. It totally rocks and definitely uses the ash >>> heap as a resource. Absolutely. And I consider Necromancy to be a part of the Giovanni territory, as they are the only mainline clan with it. >> I have seen *one deck* that uses Sudario Refraction. Perhaps >> I haven't seen more because I don't get around enough. > > > It's a metagame thing, then. I see them all the time. See them, use them. One of the best cards in the game. > And there are 35 decks in Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive > that have Sudario Refractions. Totally. And it's the key to many VPs in those decks, too. ------- Orpheus

librarian wrote: > Orpheus wrote: >> librarian wrote: >>> Odiferous Domination >>> Cardtype: Action Modifier >>> Discipline: Dominate >>> Only usable after resolving a successful referendum called by this >>> acting vampire. Place this card on this acting vampire. This vampire >>> has -1 stealth. >>> [dom] The vampire with this card gets +1 bleed. >>> [DOM] As above, but with +2 bleed. >>> >>> Excitement. >> >> Horror. >> >> You really want Arika to bleed for a base 5 without even making an >> action for it ? Let's give her the cog to bleed for 6. She won't >> really care about the -1 stealth but in case sh could get a Blythe >> Acceptance. Ok, bleed in Govern + Conditionning on your turn >> (against Archons), that's 11. 12 for Lucian, but he's less likely to >> call a vote and untap. Let's forget that one please. >> >> Roger, Roger. >> >> Orpheus > > > Sorry, it should have said: > > Stinky Giovanni Carrying the Rotting Corpse of xer Enemy on xer Back > to Advise Xe You're dead. ;-)

On 2 Okt, 22:08, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2 loka, 22:35, LisaSwe <louise.hans...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 2 Okt, 15:21, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > My issue here is with the mentality of having a set of similarly > > > themed cards for all the disciplines *for the sake of having them*. > > > This can certainly result in the addition of something meaningful to > > > the game but only incidentally. Meaningful changes should be the > > > primary intent and goal in the first place, not something that gets > > > fitted in if the theme allows it. Take a look at the five boon cards > > > of Magic: the Gathering for a good cautionary tale. 5 cards were > > > designed for each 5 "discipline" with the theme of 3x for the cost of > > > 1. All of them are in character, two are sort of balanced, two are > > > broken and one is wall paper. > > > I never suggested cards for ALL the disciplines. > > You did (assuming you are Ashur) ask the question "why not more cards > like this, for all disciplines?" This is the question I replied to. > Maybe you meant "more", not "all". That's fine. I hope you also > understand why I got the idea that you did suggest cards for all the > disciplines. Ah, my bad english strikes again. I meant for it to be possible for this type of card for all disciplines. It doesn´t mean ALL 16 (?) disciplines have to have a card of this type. Sorry. As side note, I think the whole political aspect of VtES is not featured enough. There is like a gazillion combat cards, but we still play KRC like its 1994. And I think it´s sad that the presence discipline is THE discipline for voting (much thanks to Voter Cap). Of course, some effort has been made, but I really think the political aspect could be featured more heavy.

Orpheus wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Excellent, Death is only the beginning... I also heard in space no one can hear you scream... best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] The animalism card you had was WAAAAAY overpowered. That thing would get a run in EVERY Guruhi Vote-deck available... "I call Con Boon. Blocked? No? Great... Awe + Bewitching + (that Pre 3votes or -1 intercept) + Voter Cap... oh and I get a retainer using my shiney Animalism..." If you wanted to pump up the "alternate vote" or maybe the "alternate benefits" then they should be in discipline... Zombie Lobby Group Action Modifier 1 blood Only usable during a political action. [nec] Force a younger vampire to abstain. This may change that vampire's votes. [NEC] Before casting votes for or against this referendum, that vampire must burn 1 blood. "We want brains... Brains... BRAINS!" Ghosts of Referendums Past Action Modifier 1 blood Only usable at the end of a successful political action. [nec] Move 1 card used during this action to your hand. Discard as normal. [NEC] Move any 1 card from your ashheap to your hand other than the card used to call this referendum. Discard as normal. Non-Idle Threats Action Modifier 1 blood Only usable during a political action. [pot] Tap X ready vampires with [pot]. This vampire gains X+1 votes. [POT] Vampires voting against this referendum suffer 1 unpreventable damage when votes are tallied. Vampire's may change their votes after this card is played. "Mr Knuckles has an opinion on the matter at hand..." - Crusher Political Thuggery Action Modifier 1 blood Only usable after a successful referendum. [pot] Put 2 blood onto a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region. [POT] For every 2 votes this referendum passed by, deal 1 damage to a vampire controlled by your predator or prey or a vampire that cast at least 1 vote against this referendum. "I'm recruiting for the cause..." - Menele