Chemicals used to make CE cards...

Ok. Here in St Louis, MO , we had our first taste of the Camarilla Edition by playing a sealed deck deck games. Do you wanna know what my very first impression of the cards was? It wasn't the looks or playability. The first comment out of my mouth was, "Damn. These cards smell like chemicals." A few others noticed the smell but not much else was said. About fourty-five minutes into the game, I started getting a massive frontal headache and soon after started geting nauseated and a few shakes as well. I know what you're about to say and I'll agree with you : there is no evidence the cards caused my symptoms. However, I speculated that perhaps they MAY be the cause. One of the other players I played with also mentioned getting a mild headache after playing for a while. Others had no symptoms. At the beginning of the second game, I could again get good wafes of the noxious odor when shuffling my cards. While I'm not going to directly corrolate the chemicals with my symptoms, the main jist of this post is this: Has anyone else had adverse health effects upon playing with the cards? Again, not pointing evidence-less fingers. Just asking. Otherwise, I was somewhat OK with the cards usability. Not really happy with some of the design decisions though and I was rather sad because of the somewhat dismall mix of cards in the precon Nossie starter I played with. I was happy enough to pull some Praxis Siezure's, votes, and a Giant's Blood from the boosters though to make the deck a bit more playable. Thanks. -Shawn D

>Otherwise, I was somewhat OK with the cards usability. >Not really happy with some of the design decisions >though and I was rather sad because of the somewhat dismall >mix of cards in the precon Nossie starter I played with. >I was happy enough to pull some Praxis Siezure's, votes, >and a Giant's Blood from the boosters though to make the >deck a bit more playable. As someone proud of his superb olfactory capabilities, I must admit that the Camarilla Edition cards do indeed have a very distinct smell, quite different from Jyhad/VTES cards in the past. I personally have not had any adverse reaction to them nor has anyone I know of. Halcyan 2 maybe they added some secret Chemical X to make the cards more addictive

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message > As someone proud of his superb olfactory capabilities, I must admit that the > Camarilla Edition cards do indeed have a very distinct smell, quite different > from Jyhad/VTES cards in the past. I personally have not had any adverse > reaction to them nor has anyone I know of. I also noted a weird smell when I cracked open my Ventrue starter. It reminded me of the paste they made us use for craft projects in grade school. I haven't gotten sick from touching them though. One thing I did notice when I bought the starter--the game store clerk gave me two copies of Marcus Vitel (he apparently was sent a whole stack of them by his distributor to promote the new set). The Vitel card has a gloss to it that the other CE cards do not. If you hold them up to sunlight to compare, there is a distinct... dullness to them. Is it possible the set at large was printed at a different printer or using a different method than previous sets and the promo card?

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20020824220120...@mb-mw.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] that would correlate with the fact that the packs have been coined as 'cocaine' by many players already ; ) a couple of us, too, noticed a distinct smell which was reminiscent of something we couldn't quite put our finger on at the time... no adverse side-effects that i know of, tho... expect maybe emptying your wallet when you buy a bunch. makes you wonder... :) zarrak already addicted to CE

zar...@yahoo.com (MiF) wrote: >> As someone proud of his superb olfactory capabilities, I must admit >> that the Camarilla Edition cards do indeed have a very distinct >> smell, quite different from Jyhad/VTES cards in the past. I >> personally have not had any adverse reaction to them nor has anyone I >> know of. >> >> Halcyan 2 > > a couple of us, too, noticed a distinct smell which was reminiscent of > something we couldn't quite put our finger on at the time... The impression I had was that it smelled like the gum in the old packs of baseball cards. Remember? The cards you bought for the gum, and the sound of the cards in your bike's wheels. Bleu

I think it is the ink. I got a headache at the Pre-release too, but then I always do when I forget to eat. Bleu <leg...@nospam.generation.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9275E43...@216.168.3.40>... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Shawn D" <lost...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:16b7051f.02082...@posting.google.com... > It wasn't the looks or playability. The first comment > out of my mouth was, "Damn. These cards smell like > chemicals." A few others noticed the smell but not much > else was said. > > About fourty-five minutes into the game, I started > getting a massive frontal headache and soon after > started geting nauseated and a few shakes as well. Weird, man. I had also noticed that they're a little smelly, but figured it was just "new card smell". All the CCG cards I've ever opened have had "new card smell" of one form or another... CE's may be a little more pungent than most, but nobody I've talked to has had any reaction as strong as yours. That said, inks can probably involve enough "icky chemical stuff" that it'd be plausible that they might cause adverse reactions for some people. Josh all the kids wanna sniff some glue

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<akdpmk$1hm4dl$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > I had also noticed that they're a little smelly, but figured > it was just "new card smell". All the CCG cards I've ever > opened have had "new card smell" of one form or another... > CE's may be a little more pungent than most, but nobody > I've talked to has had any reaction as strong as yours. > > That said, inks can probably involve enough "icky chemical > stuff" that it'd be plausible that they might cause adverse > reactions for some people. I'm definitely going to be optimistic and buy a few more cards and play with them exclusively to see if such reactions occur again. It could have been some sort of environmental effect or maybe I was just off that day. I won't point the finger yet but it seemed odd enough. I'll post an update after a few more full games with them. -Shawn D

"Shawn D" <lost...@earthlink.net> wrote > > Has anyone else had adverse health effects upon playing > with the cards? Generally just a lack of sleep but once Noal punched me in the face for rushing one of his vampires. He apologized later though, something to do with having not had any coffee yet or something like that. Cheers, WES (Trying to enhance Detroit's reputation for thuggery... can only help us in the national tournaments :)

FYI, I work in a printing company, though not the one that printed these cards. I can tell you for a fact it is not the ink what causes the smell. Cards are covered in an Ultra-Violet coating to prevent wear from usage. The finish from this product can be either Matte or Gloss. This explains the difference between the two Vitels, which were printed at different times with different coatings. This UV product is extremely volatile, and therefore smells awful. The product has been known to cause allergic reactions with our employees (why they wear gloves and masks when manipulating the coating). Might explain the headaches. Should tamper down as time goes by and product finishes drying and evaporating. [ quoted text not captured ]

lost...@earthlink.net (Shawn D) wrote in message news:<16b7051f.02082...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Wow. This is neat (for me, anyways). I work with the same class of chemicals as the ones used to make the inks and top coats for card stock. Since it gives me a chance to talk about what I do in conjuction with VTES, I'll probably give you more info than you ever wanted, but read on... until you doze off anyways. The layman's version 99.95% of all the coatings that go onto paper in the US use a technology called UV (ultraviolet) curing. Rather than mixing a solid resin and pigments with a solvent (which is what the paint you buy at the store is), this technology uses a mixture of resins and liquids along with a catalyst that reacts when exposed to ultraviolet light. The catalyst then turns the liquid coating or ink into a solid. The big differences are #1) emmissions. UV tech produces no appreciable quantity of volatiles of the sort that irritate your lungs and get you high (sorry), pollute the environment or make smog. #2) Speed. These catalysts are fast. Blazing fast. Ludicrously fast. An old solvent press could run at a pace of about 100 feet per minute through a warm oven to push the solvent off, but UV tech can run presses at 500 to 700+ feet per minute. The productivity gains with UV are huge. These sorts of coatings are also what make fiber optic filaments work, and in those applications, they can run as fast as 1200 _meters_ per minute!!! Back to VTES card stock. A very small amount of unreacted UV material can have significant odor, even though the materials are non hazardous (there's no known side effects of exposure to the liquid materials, except for possible allegic reactions among a very small amount of the population (less than 0.05%). Once solidified, even the allergic folks can handle them without problems) Now, if you got a batch of cards that were under-cured, then the odor is a strong indication. These cards may also wear poorly (keep an eye on them), and have a finish that is more flatted than other, less stinky examples from the same set (don't try comparing it to other sets, its not a valid comparison). This may account for some reports of very different card "textures" as compared to previous sets. Personally, I haven't gotten any odor off of the stuff I've opened (3 boxes of boosters, 2 of starters), and I know what to look (I mean smell) for. If the printer doesn't judiciously attend to his equipment, though, this problem could be one of a particular day where the equipment wasn't working well, or a specific lot of top coat or ink that wasn't prepared properly (most often, deficient in catalyst). I'm not impressed with White Wolf's printer (I know their business, and they aren't really doing it that well). They have improved somewhat since Sabbat War, but I would be looking for a new printer, If'n I was White Wolf. Too much bad PR from the current one... Wow. You read this far? Go you... DaveZ Atom Weaver ...bringing You environmentally friendly coatings, inks and adhesives...

guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in message news:<4c6f3f3e.02082...@posting.google.com>... > I'm not impressed with White Wolf's printer (I know their business, > and they aren't really doing it that well). They have improved > somewhat since Sabbat War, but I would be looking for a new printer, > If'n I was White Wolf. Too much bad PR from the current one... Interesting. I honestly haven't done a press check for years, not since moving my focus to web design, so I'm a bit behind on current technology. Even if no one else found it interesting, I did! The current complaints about the ink, the matte finish, typos, and having three promo cards accidently added to starters got me thinking. Is White Wolf cutting corners? If so, why? Consider the problems with the printing, which may indicate they're using a cheap printer or pushing their printer to squeeze more product out without increasing the price. Add in the rumors that retailers are paying a higher price for cards. Now throw in my theory that the real reason for the design change is to escape paying royalty fees to Wizards of the Coast for using their copyrighted designs. It all adds up to White Wolf cutting corners and trying to make more money off of VTES. The question is: is it because they just want more money (which is fine, they're a business, they exist to make money), or is it because VTES isn't doing well? Does anyone have sales figures from local stores? As far as I can tell, sales have been okay, but few stores in St. Louis carry the cards, and even those have some Final Nights and Bloodlines that aren't moving. (as a side note, White Wolf only sells directly to stores, not to internet vendors, which is interesting, as it seems most serious players buy a lot of their cards over the internet) JSpektr

jspektr <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote: : The current complaints about the ink I see no problems with the ink. Am I not looking hard enough? : the matte finish I like the matte finish. Am I wrong? : typos Fewer than before and even though Brachah typo is annoying, I'm satisfied : and having three promo cards accidently added to starters Oh. I like it. No matter if it was accidental or not, I think the idea of unofficial non-foil (foils I consider annoying) funny-rares walking around interesting. I've seen all the CE cards, but not the three unofficial ones - it's harmless and nice extra. :) : got me thinking. Is White Wolf cutting corners? If so, why? : Consider the problems with the printing, which may indicate they're : using a cheap printer or pushing their printer to squeeze more product : out without increasing the price. Add in the rumors that retailers are : paying a higher price for cards. Now throw in my theory that the real : reason for the design change is to escape paying royalty fees to : Wizards of the Coast for using their copyrighted designs. It all adds : up to White Wolf cutting corners and trying to make more money off of : VTES. If the reason was really escaping royalty fees, thumbs up for WW. If I could choose whether to support WW or WotC when I'm buying V:tES, I prefer it to be the company that's put some effort into the game I like. The quite adequate quality of CE in comparison to best quality money can buy.. I wouldn't like to pay for the extra mile in card quality. The way I see it, the new cards are as good as I like them to be and wouldn't consider enhanced quality and the resulting extra cost an improvement. For me, I see no corners cut. Whatever choices WW has made relating to making more money, I'm happy with them. As a player I don't feel that WW is making any choices which would eventually kill the game and this is how it should be. Overall, this is also how I think the player base around here feels as well. People complain about little things, like the masters, but everyone seems quite satisfied with the new cards. CE is selling well and it has gotten us new players, something which the new starters and, in my opinion, reprining a lot of previously corrected or reworded cards has helped immensely. I haven't bought a lot of Jyhad/V:tES before after acquiring enough of the key commons, but the new set roused my consumer instincts. The fact that I'll die when my Visa bill hits me combined with that I'm happy about it proves at least to me that everything is as it should be with V:tES at the moment :) //T

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<akf5t...@enews2.newsguy.com>... > (Trying to enhance Detroit's reputation for thuggery... can only help us in > the national tournaments :) Hrmmm. Watch out for St Louis. We're a sneaky bunch. :) -Shawn D

guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in message news:<4c6f3f3e.02082...@posting.google.com>... > Wow. This is neat (for me, anyways). I work with the same class of > chemicals as the ones used to make the inks and top coats for card > stock. Since it gives me a chance to talk about what I do in > conjuction with VTES, I'll probably give you more info than you ever > wanted, but read on... until you doze off anyways. > > The layman's version > 99.95% of all the coatings that go onto paper in the US use a > technology called UV (ultraviolet) curing. the current one... > *snip for berevity* Wonderful information! Thanks for taking the time to respond with your knowledge and experience. I really had no idea how the images were matted on to the stock. > Wow. You read this far? Go you... > > DaveZ *laughs* Thanks again for the information! -Shawn D

lost...@earthlink.net (Shawn D) wrote in message news:<16b7051f.02082...@posting.google.com>... > guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in message news:<4c6f3f3e.02082...@posting.google.com>... > > Wonderful information! Thanks for taking the > time to respond with your knowledge and experience. > I really had no idea how the images were matted on to > the stock. > Hey... Someone read my post :-) Alright then... Since I'm all jazzy on how this overlaps with my job, I'll offer the following; I have access to analytical equipment that can measure the amount of unreacted material left over on the card. Its a non-destructive technique, but it might leave a rectangular impression on the card. If someone is willing to give up five or so common cards from a stinky pack for the test, I can verify if the problem I hypothesized is real or if it is in fact psychosomatic. The stinky cards would have to come straight out of a booster, be handled by the edges, and go into a new ziploc freezer bag with the air squeezed out to get the best results. They can be sent by normal mail at that point. Anyone wanna volunteer their stinky cards for it? I'll return them once finished. Regards DaveZ Atom Weaver

atomweaver wrote: > If someone is willing to give up five or so common cards from a stinky > pack for the test, I can verify if the problem I hypothesized is real > or if it is in fact psychosomatic. The psychosomatic part, if you're referring to my usage, would be that the CE suffers from this problem on a greater level than previous sets. Over the course of the print run, colors may shift or fade, the level of unreacted material may change, etc. But this is equally true of CE as it is of the previous expansions, AFAIK. The CE seems to me to have the same "new card smell" as the previous sets, at least in the packs that I've opened. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

cprov...@hotmail.com (Creature) wrote in message news:<83343c7b.02082...@posting.google.com>... > FYI, > > I work in a printing company, though not the one that printed these > cards. I can tell you for a fact it is not the ink what causes the > smell. Cards are covered in an Ultra-Violet coating to prevent wear > from usage. The finish from this product can be either Matte or Gloss. > This explains the difference between the two Vitels, which were > printed at different times with different coatings. This UV product is > extremely volatile, and therefore smells awful. ...but you know that volatile does not directly equate with stinky. UV products aren't strictly speaking volatile, they don't evaporate like acetone or mineral spirits do. Tthat's why you don't need to clean the press heads (or rolls. Offset? Litho? Gravure?) every night, and instead can cover them with plastic. UV acrylates are more like ripe bananas... You can smell 'em in the kitchen because your nose is sensitive to extremely low concentrations of that characteristic odor... > The product has been > known to cause allergic reactions with our employees (why they wear > gloves and masks when manipulating the coating). Might explain the > headaches. Presonal Protective Equipment is a good start, but you gotta have good ventilation for the area that they're being used in. Absorption through the skin is the most frequent method of developing a sensitization to UV acrylates. Is there a lot of misting of the product in your shop too? Gotta get good localized suction exhaust to misting points if there is... Oh, and don't stick your bare hand in the stuff. Its not a smart thing ;-) A lot of smaller print shops use UV tech from the eighties, when the allergic reaction problems were really bad. Newer chemical products developed since don't have nearly the same level of trouble. Prices on them aren't as low, though, because the chemical companies need to pay for the development work done to create these new products. > Should tamper down as time goes by and product finishes > drying and evaporating. > That'll never happen. Under-cured UV products won't finish their cure unless re-exposed to UV curing lamps (they're like tanning lamps on steriods. They'll give you a third degree burn in about a second and a half). The Smell will go away as the cards are handled and the small amount of residual liquid is wiped away by the hanlder's fingers... Regards DaveZ Atom Weaver

"atomweaver" <guenh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:4c6f3f3e.02082...@posting.google.com... > lost...@earthlink.net (Shawn D) wrote in message news:<16b7051f.02082...@posting.google.com>... > > > Wonderful information! Thanks for taking the > > time to respond with your knowledge and experience. > > I really had no idea how the images were matted on to > > the stock. > > > > Hey... Someone read my post :-) Alright then... Since I'm all jazzy > on how this overlaps with my job, I'll offer the following; I have > access to analytical equipment that can measure the amount of > unreacted material left over on the card. Fascinating. (I read your post too, yeah, great stuff. :-) > Its a non-destructive > technique, but it might leave a rectangular impression on the card. > If someone is willing to give up five or so common cards from a stinky > pack for the test, I can verify if the problem I hypothesized is real > or if it is in fact psychosomatic. > The stinky cards would have to come straight out of a booster, be > handled by the edges, and go into a new ziploc freezer bag with the > air squeezed out to get the best results. They can be sent by normal > mail at that point. I would do this except that I no longer have any unopened cards. :-) Why I'm writing, though, is to mention this: anecotally, it seemed to me, opening my CE product, that the starter decks were much more "stinky" than the booster packs. Whether there's any good reason for this I don't know, but as I recall, I do remember a lot more smell coming out when I opened up my two boxes of starter decks than when I opened my four boxes of boosters. > Anyone wanna volunteer their stinky cards for it? I'll return them > once finished. I may actually be able to come up with some, though, if I can convince somebody else with unopened cards to take my already-opened ones in exchange for their newly-opened-stinky ones. If they turn out to be as stinky as hoped when actually opened. :-) Drop me your address by email? (now if only we had, say, some old FN/SW/etc starters/boosters to open up and compare stinkiness and test side by side with the CE cards...) Josh blinded... with science!

"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:196f2577.02082...@posting.google.com... > guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in message news:<4c6f3f3e.02082...@posting.google.com>... > > > I'm not impressed with White Wolf's printer (I know their business, > > and they aren't really doing it that well). They have improved > > somewhat since Sabbat War, but I would be looking for a new printer, > > If'n I was White Wolf. Too much bad PR from the current one... > > Interesting. I honestly haven't done a press check for years, not > since moving my focus to web design, so I'm a bit behind on current > technology. Even if no one else found it interesting, I did! Yeah, me too. :-) > The current complaints about the ink, the matte finish, typos, and > having three promo cards accidently added to starters got me thinking. > Is White Wolf cutting corners? If so, why? I don't think so - at least, not intentionally. The matte finish *really is* almost exactly the same as in previous sets. Take a CE card and hold it up to the light side by side with a Bloodlines card. If your CE card isn't one of the ones that's got some roughening or other oddness on it (apparently (possibly) from uncured UV-finish chemicals) its matteness should be pretty much identical to that of the Bloodlines card. It was (as far as I could tell) the promo Marcus Vitels that were anomalously glossy (and personally I didn't consider that a good thing - they were even more distinguishable from "regular" cards than the usual between-set differences). When I did this comparison, the blacks of the borders looked a little bit different in terms of saturation/darkness/whatever, but for the most part the finishes seemed basically the same. The typos in this set are pretty much on the same level as with other sets. They fixed a Dark Sovereigns vampire typo (Blythe Candeleria) but introduced a new one (Brachah). Fixed a VTES typo (Asylum Hunting Ground) but introduced a new one (Murder of Crows). There probably haven't been any sets *completely* free of typos in VTES. I don't really know if other companies manage typo-free sets, but if so I guess they have more money/people to devote to proofreading. :-) > Consider the problems with the printing, which may indicate they're > using a cheap printer or pushing their printer to squeeze more product > out without increasing the price. Add in the rumors that retailers are > paying a higher price for cards. Ah, rumors, always a good basis for wild speculation. ;-) > Now throw in my theory that the real > reason for the design change is to escape paying royalty fees to > Wizards of the Coast for using their copyrighted designs. This theory is wrong, unless you think WW is lying about their real reasons for changing the layout for some reason. The reason they give for the background changes is that the old background files they inherited from WotC existed as "complete cards" that only had spaces for (eg) the text and the symbols. So, to make any change to the layout at all, they had to redo the backgrounds. Now, their choices in designing those new backgrounds may be debatably good (as the choice to do new layouts in the first place), but apparently they had to do it. Royalties weren't involved at all. As a layman, I'd have thought that they could have somehow "salvaged" the old graphics and based new background files on them at least to some extent - take a chunk of old background and tile it over the entire new-background area, or something more sophisticated and graphic-designy. :-) But I really have no idea how feasible that would have been; maybe the old files weren't modifiable in that way for some reason. > (as a side note, White Wolf only sells directly to stores, not to > internet vendors, which is interesting, as it seems most serious > players buy a lot of their cards over the internet) How do you mean "only sells directly to stores"? Do they sell at a discount to stores without going through distributors? I would have thought that the reason their online sales are set up the way they are is so that they don't undercut their retailers (by offering online discounts directly to customers) or their distributors (by selling discounted product directly to internet vendors rather than going through the distributors or whatever). Josh speculatin' again

jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02082...@posting.google.com>... > The question is: is it because they just want more money (which is > fine, they're a business, they exist to make money), or is it because > VTES isn't doing well? Does anyone have sales figures from local > stores? As far as I can tell, sales have been okay, but few stores in > St. Louis carry the cards, and even those have some Final Nights and > Bloodlines that aren't moving. My guess is that it's poor sales, but not necessarily specific to VTES, just across the board. The economy in general is slumping, and when people start getting strapped for cash, one of the first things to go is hobby purchases. This probably has more of an impact on VTES, whose players are older and do not have the same liquid income as the younger generation that plays Pokemon, etc. Also, I have been told by an employee at my local gaming store that relatively speaking the entire gaming market has dropped, at least compared to the "golden days" of Magic: The Consumerism when you would cash out several grand at the end of the day just from selling out on your booster packs. Things were moderately improved with the rennaisance of D20 Dungeons and Dragons, but RPG books don't have the sales continuity that CCG's have, since you only buy them once, and once you have them, they're all you really need to play. I hope CE does improve sales for WW, and am releived that they don't have a larger parent company like Hasbro lording over them and threatening to cancel product lines if they're not the "next big fad." I think they have done a superb job managing and improving VTES and even if something were to happen where the cards were no longer printed, I would continue to play.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D6CDE5B...@white-wolf.com>... > atomweaver wrote: > > If someone is willing to give up five or so common cards from a stinky > > pack for the test, I can verify if the problem I hypothesized is real > > or if it is in fact psychosomatic. > > The psychosomatic part, if you're referring to my usage, would be that > the CE suffers from this problem on a greater level than previous sets. > > Over the course of the print run, colors may shift or fade, the level > of unreacted material may change, etc. But this is equally true of > CE as it is of the previous expansions, AFAIK. > > The CE seems to me to have the same "new card smell" as the previous > sets, at least in the packs that I've opened. That has been my experience, as well. Again, if there was a problem (I'm not saying there is) it could have been date/time and/or lot specific. Several comments of "more stinky than usual" is what made me suggest under-cure of the UV top coat as a possible reason. I'm curious to see if I'm right. If I discover anything quantifiable, I'll let you know. (You'll like the analyses, Scott. There's lots of math involved ;-) Blech. I hate math.) Regards DaveZ Atom Weaver

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D6CDE5B...@white-wolf.com>... > The CE seems to me to have the same "new card smell" as the previous > sets, at least in the packs that I've opened. At least as far as real vs. psychosomatic, the smell was very real. It was not something any of us were anticipating, leaving no possibility for our minds to invent it. I've certainly opened hundreds of packs from the other sets, and none of them had a smell remotely the same as the start of Cam I opened. On the other hand, it's very possible we got a bad box, and it is not a representative sample. Hence the whole bit about asking if other people experienced the same thing. BTW, this is something that should be addressed by the art director, who should be doing press checks and the like. JSpektr

guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in message news:<4c6f3f3e.02082...@posting.google.com>... > Anyone wanna volunteer their stinky cards for it? I'll return them > once finished. > Interesting. I'm game, just out of curiousity factor. My e-mail is in the header. Drop me a line and I'll send a few your way. -Shawn D

In message <4c6f3f3e.0208...@posting.google.com>, atomweaver <guenh...@mindspring.com> writes: >> The CE seems to me to have the same "new card smell" as the previous >> sets, at least in the packs that I've opened. > >That has been my experience, as well. I noticed nothing either. It's possible that one batch of packs had a greater abundance of sticky glue, of course. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D Don't just clap. What's the use of that? EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 You there, gorgeous creature. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D Stop...that...bus!

just so you know - the CE cards have been printed with a new type of ink on the market which drys quicker for use in the faster printing machine and there is a new black which helps with definition. It also helps re sealing too ... nice product - not so good on the smelles though the smell is the reaction after UV drying as the are packed straight into the packets which keep the smell 'fresh' for you :) just so you know. regards anam (ps yes I ma a QUALIFIED print ink and paper technologist.)

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<akip7u$1ij4tp$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > "jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message > news:196f2577.02082...@posting.google.com... > > Now throw in my theory that the real > > reason for the design change is to escape paying royalty fees to > > Wizards of the Coast for using their copyrighted designs. > > This theory is wrong, unless you think WW is lying about their > real reasons for changing the layout for some reason. I believe there is a substancial chance their are either lying, or not telling the whole truth. They are a business, and it is inherent in most business politics that they distort the truth when disclosing information to their customers. Considering how reticent White Wolf has been in the past to reveal even basic information, I do not find it a stretch to believe they are witholding information about the Cam redesign. > > The reason they give for the background changes is that the > old background files they inherited from WotC existed as > "complete cards" that only had spaces for (eg) the text and > the symbols. Interesting. That's the first I've heard it. Of course, that still fails to explain why they decided to make a dramatic layout change; if they hadn't, the background wouldn't have been a problem and could have been left as-is. > So, to make any change to the layout at all, they had to redo > the backgrounds. Nonsense. They could have made many minor changes without changing the backgrounds. They could have moved the discipline symbols, the name at the top, and even added the verticle bar without changing the background one bit. If White Wolf disagrees, they are free to send me the original WoTC files and I will do exactly what I just said. They can e-mail jsp...@netscape.com (don't get excited, I use that address for junk mail, and check it irregularly). > As a layman, I'd have thought that they could have somehow > "salvaged" the old graphics and based new background files on > them at least to some extent - take a chunk of old background > and tile it over the entire new-background area, or something > more sophisticated and graphic-designy. :-) But I really have > no idea how feasible that would have been; maybe the old files > weren't modifiable in that way for some reason. It would have been laughably easy, if it was even really necessary. I've recreated more from less in my professional work (the best was when I had a photo of a client next to his partner, and he had me erase the partner and recreate from scratch that entire side of his face and body. It was indestinquishable from a normal photo when I was done. If I could pull that off, I daresay they can get out the clone tool in Photoshop and fill in the blanks on the VTES backgrounds). Even if they decided that was too difficult, they could have created something at least somewhat similar to the existing backgrounds, making it less of a jarring change. The fact that they didn't makes me suspect there is a reason for it, and I currently think avoiding royalty fees is a good potential reason. I'm not saying that's what's going on for certain, just that it seems to make sense to me. > > > (as a side note, White Wolf only sells directly to stores, not to > > internet vendors, which is interesting, as it seems most serious > > players buy a lot of their cards over the internet) > > How do you mean "only sells directly to stores"? Do they sell > at a discount to stores without going through distributors? I Yes. > would have thought that the reason their online sales are set > up the way they are is so that they don't undercut their retailers > (by offering online discounts directly to customers) or their > distributors (by selling discounted product directly to internet > vendors rather than going through the distributors or whatever). > If you are a store with a physical storefront, they will sell directly to you at a discount. If you are an internet-only store, you must buy your cards from another distributor like Diamond. All this information is available on the White Wolf website. JSpektr

>(now if only we had, say, some old FN/SW/etc starters/boosters to >open up and compare stinkiness and test side by side with the CE >cards...) > Well, first off, let me note that the smell issue isn't solely a psychological issue. I know for a fact that my Camarilla Edition cards smell different. But then again, most sets of cards had a distinct smell as well. I know for certain that the original Jyhad cards had a particular scent. In addition, if I recall correctly SW and FN smelled similarly (I think. I'll have to check), though it was different from Jyhad, but Bloodlines did have a smell distinct from the other White Wolf expansions. In addition, it may also be important to note that I keep all of my cards in plastic cases (which then go into cardboard boxes). Spending all of that time in those fairly sealed plastic cases tends to preserve the smell so I can check. =) Halcyan 2 I just keepin getting freakier, don't I Josh? =P

> >>(now if only we had, say, some old FN/SW/etc starters/boosters to >>open up and compare stinkiness and test side by side with the CE >>cards...) >> > > >Well, first off, let me note that the smell issue isn't solely a >psychological >issue. I know for a fact that my Camarilla Edition cards smell different. > >But then again, most sets of cards had a distinct smell as well. I know for >certain that the original Jyhad cards had a particular scent. In addition, if >I >recall correctly SW and FN smelled similarly (I think. I'll have to check), >though it was different from Jyhad, but Bloodlines did have a smell distinct >from the other White Wolf expansions. This is a little much... does it really matter what they SMELL or TASTE like? You play with them, not eat them, not sniff them, but play! Robert M. Sachs V:EKN Prince of Naperville, IL Asst. ST, College of DuPage by Night http://hometown.aol.com/CODByNight "Who controls the past now, controls the future. Who controls the present now, controls the past." ~ Zach de la Rocha

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020903171548...@mb-mv.aol.com... > In addition, it may also be important to note that I keep all of my cards in > plastic cases (which then go into cardboard boxes). Spending all of that time > in those fairly sealed plastic cases tends to preserve the smell so I can > check. =) > > > Halcyan 2 > > I just keepin getting freakier, don't I Josh? =P Why yes, Halcyan. You are like the freakiest freak that ever freaked. ;-) Josh (I don't mean this to be insulting, by the way. I've called pretty much everyone I know a freak at one time or another.)

"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:196f2577.02083...@posting.google.com... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<akip7u$1ij4tp$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > > This theory is wrong, unless you think WW is lying about their > > real reasons for changing the layout for some reason. > > I believe there is a substancial chance their are either lying, or not > telling the whole truth. They are a business, and it is inherent in > most business politics that they distort the truth when disclosing > information to their customers. Considering how reticent White Wolf > has been in the past to reveal even basic information, I do not find > it a stretch to believe they are witholding information about the Cam > redesign. I dunno, in my experience WW has been very open on many things. They don't want to release sales figures, apparently, no, and Scott doesn't generally believe in talking about design on the newsgroup. But other than that they're pretty approachable. > > The reason they give for the background changes is that the > > old background files they inherited from WotC existed as > > "complete cards" that only had spaces for (eg) the text and > > the symbols. > > Interesting. That's the first I've heard it. Of course, that still > fails to explain why they decided to make a dramatic layout change; if > they hadn't, the background wouldn't have been a problem and could > have been left as-is. I think it was mentioned on the White Wolf forums? And this is what Steve Wieck told me when I asked him. No, it doesn't explain why they wanted to make a dramatic layout change - it was a side effect of the decision to make a dramatic layout change. They've said before, I believe, that the reason they wanted to make the big layout change was that they thought it would make it easier for new players to learn the game. > Even if they decided that was too difficult, they could have created > something at least somewhat similar to the existing backgrounds, > making it less of a jarring change. The fact that they didn't makes me > suspect there is a reason for it, and I currently think avoiding > royalty fees is a good potential reason. I'm not saying that's what's > going on for certain, just that it seems to make sense to me. I'm sure you're right, that they could have. But once they decided to do the layout change in the first place, apparently they (or just the art director, I don't know) decided that they didn't want to approximate the old backgrounds. Why not I don't know - I too would have thought it'd make the new cards easier to assimilate for old players. > If you are a store with a physical storefront, they will sell directly > to you at a discount. If you are an internet-only store, you must buy > your cards from another distributor like Diamond. All this information > is available on the White Wolf website. Huh, you're right, it is. I had never looked for it before. It seems that they give their reasoning right there on the page - that it's because they want to support "the neighborhood game store" that they see as the cornerstone of the gaming industry. Which is a reasonable enough position, I'd think, if somewhat sentimental. :-) Josh used to hang out a lot around there

In message <alav7f$1oidj4$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes: <card backgrounds> >Why not I don't know - I too would >have thought it'd make the new cards easier to assimilate for old >players. The obvious explanation would involve grouping. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:+fCMZm2C...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <alav7f$1oidj4$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin > <jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes: > <card backgrounds> > >Why not I don't know - I too would > >have thought it'd make the new cards easier to assimilate for old > >players. > > The obvious explanation would involve grouping. I suppose... but that would make more sense if the new-layout vampires weren't legal for use with *any* of the old vampires. Since the group 3s are usable with all the group 2 vampires, and the reprinted-with-new-layout group 2s are usable with old-layout group 1s, this isn't a very satisfying explanation. :-) Josh not laying out, unfortunately

In message <alb5ra$1og3hj$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes: >> >Why not I don't know - I too would >> >have thought it'd make the new cards easier to assimilate for old >> >players. >> >> The obvious explanation would involve grouping. > >I suppose... but that would make more sense if the new-layout >vampires weren't legal for use with *any* of the old vampires. Not really, as that would be uber-bad for all sorts of reasons. So a compromise is made. Also, bear in mind that all the Group 2 vampires of the relevant clans have been reprinted and are readily available in the new backgrounds. [ quoted text not captured ]