[LSJ] Red Herring's extra restrictions

I was asked the following: Red Herring ...Take the card played to perform the action (if any) back into your hand. Your vampires cannot attempt the same action again this turn. So, can you play computer hack, Red Herring, then bleed with or without a card that same turn? Or can you only not computer hack again? Here's the response I would give: The "same action" is the exact precise action you took. If I bleed with Force of Will (computer hacking, any action card that bleeds), and play Red Herring to take the card back into my hand, my other minions are only prevented from playing that same carded action by name again this turn. You can bleed with all of your other minions if you bleed with an action card and then play Red Herring to cancel the action. Red Herring, Obedience, and Change of Target do not restrict actions based on "type of action", only on specific action. If the specific action cancelled by Red Herring is cardless bleed, then only cardless bleed is prohibited for the rest of your vampires. Thoughts?

In article <7e98b5c3.02072...@posting.google.com>, Adonai <ado...@fastmail.ca> wrote: >I was asked the following: > >Red Herring >...Take the card played to perform the action (if any) back into your >hand. Your vampires cannot attempt the same action again this turn. > >So, can you play computer hack, Red Herring, then bleed with or >without a card that same turn? Or can you only not computer hack >again? 'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand, regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905] "Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will, etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same action' ban, such as Red Herring's. gomi -- Blood, guts, guns, cuts Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts

On 28 Jul 2002 19:37:17 -0400, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: >'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against >the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand, >regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card >in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and >doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905] Exactly as discussed in the FAQ, section 3.19. >"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will, >etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same >action' ban, such as Red Herring's. I disagree. See section 3.18 of the FAQ. _______________________________ 3.18 What does "Same Action" mean? Certain cards like Obedience, Change of Target, and Red Herring prohibit you from taking the "same action" again this turn. What does "same action" mean in these cases? For these cards, the "same action" will either be one of the basic cardless actions (ie hunt, bleed, rescue from torpor, commit diablerie, leave torpor) or a specific action by the title of the card used to take the action (ie call a specific vote, equip with a specific piece of equipment, employ a specific retainer, recruit a specific ally, bleed with a particular action card). Note: This is different than the "no repeat actions" tournament rule, see 3.19. _______________________________ If you take an action with a card, it is a specific action by the title of the card used to take the action. No other action is that action, for the purposes of Obedience, Change of Target, and Red Herring. The "type of action" has nothing to do with the prohibitions that these cards place on subsequent actions. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm

thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<3d4496ae...@text.giganews.com>... > On 28 Jul 2002 19:37:17 -0400, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > > > >'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against > >the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand, > >regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card > >in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and > >doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905] > > Exactly as discussed in the FAQ, section 3.19. > > > >"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will, > >etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same > >action' ban, such as Red Herring's. > > I disagree. > See section 3.18 of the FAQ. > > _______________________________ > 3.18 What does "Same Action" mean? > Certain cards like Obedience, Change of Target, and Red Herring > prohibit you from taking the "same action" again this turn. What does > "same action" mean in these cases? > > For these cards, the "same action" will either be one of the basic > cardless actions (ie hunt, bleed, rescue from torpor, commit > diablerie, leave torpor) or a specific action by the title of the > card used to take the action (ie call a specific vote, equip with a > specific piece of equipment, employ a specific retainer, recruit a > specific ally, bleed with a particular action card). The bleed with a particular action card troubles me. The cardless actions are "inherent" and are therefore the base action. Whether or not you play an action card that "enhances" that action should not be a consideration in the "Same Action" criteria. A bleed is a bleed is a bleed. If it is done with Govern the Unaligned or Computer Hacking, it is still a basic bleed that is enhanced via an action card. Equipping, Recruiting and Political actions all require cards to be performed and therefore are different actions. However, on the subject of the "Same Action" issue, in the past it was ruled that the political action card Praxis Seizure: (Insert City Name) are not considered the same action. Does this still hold with the new rules? This is stemming from Delaying Tactics. Michael Eichler [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra wrote: > > On 28 Jul 2002 19:37:17 -0400, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > > >'Same action' means: 1) The same inherent (cardless) action taken against > >the same target. 2) The action taken with the same card played from hand, > >regardless of target. 3) The same action provided by the same copy of a card > >in play. (Each action provided by a card in play is a distinct action (and > >doesn't count as the "same action"). [RTR 19950905] > > Exactly as discussed in the FAQ, section 3.19. > > >"Bleed" is an inherent, cardless action -- Computer Hack, Force of Will, > >etc, are all bleeds. Therefore, they are all covered under any 'same > >action' ban, such as Red Herring's. > > I disagree. Correct. Computer Hacking is not a cardless action, so cannot be the inherent cardless action called "bleed". Different actions (although, in this case, all of the same "type"): inherent cardless bleed Computer Hacking Force of Will Same actions: Computer Hacking Computer Hacking -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Ramsteiner" <michael...@ramstein.af.mil> wrote in message news:9c15fdd3.0207...@posting.google.com... > > The bleed with a particular action card troubles me. The cardless > actions are "inherent" and are therefore the base action. Whether or > not you play an action card that "enhances" that action should not be > a consideration in the "Same Action" criteria. A bleed is a bleed is > a bleed. If it is done with Govern the Unaligned or Computer Hacking, > it is still a basic bleed that is enhanced via an action card. I think you're confusing "same action" with "same type of action". Most of the time, if you play by tournament rules, it's "same type" that's relevant because that's what's restricted by NRA. And "same type" is defined as including *all* bleeds as being the same type, *all* equips as the same type, etc. The "same action" restriction only cares about the *name* of an action. For a carded bleed, the name of the action is "Computer Hacking" or "Govern the Unaligned" or "Force of Will". A "Computer Hacking" action is a different action than a "Govern the Unaligned" action, even though they are both the same *type* of action, namely bleed. "Same action" restrictions only normally come up with certain specific cards, eg Obedience, Red Herring, Change of Target, etc. > Equipping, Recruiting and Political actions all require cards to be > performed and therefore are different actions. Any action that uses a card - whether it "requires" a card or not - will be an action of that specific card's name. > However, on the subject of the "Same Action" issue, in the past it was > ruled that the political action card Praxis Seizure: (Insert City > Name) are not considered the same action. Does this still hold with > the new rules? This is stemming from Delaying Tactics. Yes, it still holds. (And will hold under the new rules too, if by that you mean the Camarilla Edition "no repeat actions" rule. Praxis Seizure: Athens will remain a different action from Praxis Seizure: Boston. However, they will both be "political actions" and so the same vampire won't be able to take both actions in a single turn.) So if someone plays Delaying Tactics against your Praxis: Athens, you can still have another vampire call Praxis: Boston. Just not the Praxis: Athens again. Josh no nit unpicked (well, maybe some nits)

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ai3oju$1188i8$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] With that in mind... Will V:TES tournament rules remain the same with the NRA rule or will the NRA be dropped to follow the new rules being posted on White Wolf's website? Michael Eichler

In message <9c15fdd3.02072...@posting.google.com>, Ramsteiner <michael...@ramstein.af.mil> writes: >With that in mind... Will V:TES tournament rules remain the same with >the NRA rule or will the NRA be dropped to follow the new rules being >posted on White Wolf's website? Robert Goudie has noted that the Tournament Rules will probably be updated to co-incide with the official usage date of The Camarilla Edition, so that the V:EKN NRA rule is dropped. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D you say one or two amusing things, but so EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 did Herman Goering (does that sidestep Godwin?) 13D7E668C3695D623D5D - SomeBlokeCalledRapunzelSyndrome