Protracted Investment: expensive wallpaper?

kw...@cs.cornell.edu (Alan Kwan) writes: >Is it just me, but what on earth is the use of Protracted >Investment? >I'll use Short-Term Investment over it any day. Having >to invest 2 more blood and /give up playing three more >Masters/ just to gain one more blood, and get it /much/ >later? Come on. >The card is reasonable if it costs 2 pool and gives >6 blood (or possibly 5 blood), but costing 3 pool is IMO >too much. How can anyone stop playing Masters for 6 turns mid-game? >I doubt if anyone use that card (unless they don't possess >enough Short-Term's). Ascendance: 1 master -> 1 pool Short term: 4 masters -> 2 pool Long term: 7 masters -> 3 pool This includes the master phase spend playing the card. So you should only use Ascendance, no investments, Unless deck size becomes a consideration :-)

In article <3g31cf$s...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>, L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >kw...@cs.cornell.edu (Alan Kwan) writes: >>Investment? > >>I'll use Short-Term Investment over it any day. Having >Ascendance: 1 master -> 1 pool >Short term: 4 masters -> 2 pool >Long term: 7 masters -> 3 pool > >This includes the master phase spend playing the card. >So you should only use Ascendance, no investments, Unless >deck size becomes a consideration :-) Actually, here's another way to think about it: Ascendance: 1 card = 1 pool Short Term: 1 card = 2 pool Protracted: 1 card = 3 pool Game of Malkav: 1 card = -6 to +6 pool Malk. Prank: 1 card = 0 (with relative losses) to (# players * 4) pool So if you're building a deck and are concerned about the number of cards that are going it, that's your ratio. Card for card, protracted gives you the best guaranteed return on your investment, which can be important if you're trimming to an 80 card celerity combat deck... | If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--* | PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu | ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** | +-------------------------------------+---------------------------------- "Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK

Is it just me, but what on earth is the use of Protracted Investment? I'll use Short-Term Investment over it any day. Having to invest 2 more blood and /give up playing three more Masters/ just to gain one more blood, and get it /much/ later? Come on. The card is reasonable if it costs 2 pool and gives 6 blood (or possibly 5 blood), but costing 3 pool is IMO too much. How can anyone stop playing Masters for 6 turns mid-game? I doubt if anyone use that card (unless they don't possess enough Short-Term's). Alan. -- "Live Life with Heart." Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

How about this...Every turn for the first three turns, play Long Term. Then for the next six turns, you gain 3 blood. In fact, if you carefully choose your Master Cards, there's no need to worry about missing Master cards. R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.

In article <3gegl4$v...@boom.sonic.net> rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes: >From: rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) >Subject: Re: Protracted Investment: expensive wallpaper? >Date: 28 Jan 1995 22:32:04 GMT >How about this...Every turn for the first three turns, play Long Term. Then >for the next six turns, you gain 3 blood. In fact, if you carefully choose >your Master Cards, there's no need to worry about missing Master cards. It would actually gain ONE blood for then next 18 turns if the game ever lasts that long at it have been 12 turns before you even break even. You can only remove one blood from any investment once for each master card you don't play. This is why people were saying it was expensive wallpaper. It takes 7 turns to gain 3 blood and how often would that happen and who could give up 7 master card plays?

Daniel Hoffman (Daniel.B....@nd.edu) scribbles: :>How about this...Every turn for the first three turns, play Long Term. Then :>for the next six turns, you gain 3 blood. In fact, if you carefully choose :>your Master Cards, there's no need to worry about missing Master cards. :It would actually gain ONE blood for then next 18 turns if the game ever :lasts that long at it have been 12 turns before you even break even. You :can only remove one blood from any investment once for each master card you :don't play. This is why people were saying it was expensive wallpaper. It :takes 7 turns to gain 3 blood and how often would that happen and who could :give up 7 master card plays? You're ignoring the use of Rumours of Gehenna or having Anson ready... With either of these, the turn around time is cut by half... Seb.

Nevertheless, that card is full of shit. I would not risk my chance at paying 3 blood when I know someone just might have a sudden reversal or arson... ---jAMES---

jAMES e. lIN (je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) wrote: : Nevertheless, that card is full of shit. I would not risk my chance at paying : 3 blood when I know someone just might have a sudden reversal or arson... Ummm... Sudden Reversal can only be played at the time that the Protracted Investment is first out out, and you would get back all the blood you spent on the Investment. (card text of SR) Arson can only burn a location, and an Investment (of any type) is not a location. Exactly why are you afraid of these two cards? :-) Shane Travis | Due to circumstances beyond my control, sht...@duke.usask.ca | I am master of my fate and captain of my soul. Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- Ashleigh Brilliant

Daniel Hoffman (Daniel.B....@nd.edu) wrote: : It would actually gain ONE blood for then next 18 turns if the game ever : lasts that long at it have been 12 turns before you even break even. You : can only remove one blood from any investment once for each master card you : don't play. This is why people were saying it was expensive wallpaper. It : takes 7 turns to gain 3 blood and how often would that happen and who could : give up 7 master card plays? Show me on the card where it says that all your other investments can't use the same missed master card! Next, you'll be saying that you can only use one Blood Doll per master phase, and that you can't take one blood off of the Blood Dolled Vampire during the master phase you play it in! RAH- Redwood Elf.

: This includes the master phase spend playing the card. : So you should only use Ascendance, no investments, Unless : deck size becomes a consideration :-) Unfortunately, deck size is usually a consideration! I usually find it at least a BIT painful to get my deck below 80 cards...there's just so much neat stuff to put in! <g> Seriously, I think STI balances out nicely as far as deck size and masters. I'd love to load up on Ascendences, but I'd need twice as many of them, and that means a lot of Bondings and Social Charms lost... I gave up on PI a while ago...right now we're trading off (intergroup) at about 2 PIs to 1 STI (to 2-3 Ascendences)...PI really should give you 4 pool, or cost 2 and give 3. -- Meow!

Not so, dude. You can take ONE pool from a card instead of playing a Master card. So when you take that first pool, that's instead of playing your Master card...unless you can nomrally play 3 Masters/turn, you can't take one pool from each. Just from ONE. -- Meow!

In article <3gvp02$e...@agate.berkeley.edu> je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (jAMES e. lIN) writes: >Nevertheless, that card is full of shit. I would not risk my chance at paying >3 blood when I know someone just might have a sudden reversal or arson... If someone uses sudden reversal you don't pay any pool. Arson only destroys locations not any master card.

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok: "instead of playing a master card each turn, you can take one blood from the protracted investment and add it to your blood pool." Now correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to imply that one action (taking a blood) is substituted for another (playing a master card). Declining to play a master card is a single action, thus you can only substitute a single action for it. Blood Doll on the other hand says: "You may move 1 blood from this vampire to your blood pool or from your blood pool to this vampire during each of your master phases for the remainder of the game." The action of taking a blood from the blood doll is limited to how much you can take with each card (1 blood) and when it can be done (during your master phase), it does not substitute one action for another or state any limitations on using multiple blood dolls, so what exactly was your point? I'm sorry if this sounds hostile, but I'm getting really tired of rule bending magic-weenies trying to twist the rules at every opportunity. Why can't people just enjoy the game instead of spending all their time looking for loopholes or different interpretations that were obviously never intended by the creators (using bonding just for the stealth for example, or eagle's sight to automatically block any action)? Kerry >RAH- Redwood Elf.

On Sun, 29 Jan 1995, Daniel Hoffman wrote: > > It would actually gain ONE blood for then next 18 turns if the game ever > lasts that long at it have been 12 turns before you even break even. You > can only remove one blood from any investment once for each master card you > don't play. This is why people were saying it was expensive wallpaper. It > takes 7 turns to gain 3 blood and how often would that happen and who could > give up 7 master card plays? > it's easy enough to do without master plays if you don't have them or have the wrong ones. also, there is nothing that says you have to take them all in a row. take a few, play those masters that you feel you must, take some more, etc. that trickle in of blood pool can be a lifesaver. i've seen a protracted used very well in many games. i don't use them often myself, but they've been a big enough pain in the ... when i'm trying to oust my opponents. REMY

Robert Hubby (rah...@sonic.net) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] : The cards text (on Short Time Investment) is: .. Instead of playing a master card each turn, you can take 1 blood from the Short Time Investment and add it to your blood pool. I assume the same wording is used on Protracted Investment. This shows that you gain a blood if you pay the 'cost' of not playing a master card, since you can (normally) only play one master card each round, you can only pay this cost once per round. However, to get back to (what I assume to be) the reason behind this discussion. Do people really think that Short Time Investment is so much better than Protracted Investment ? Well, at least this is what I assume, since people say how much they hate Protracted Investment, rather than how much they hate both of them. Short Time Investment cost 1 blood, and you can get back 4 blood, for a total gain of 2 blood over 4 rounds. Protracted Investment cost 3 blood, and you can get back 6 blood, for a total gain of 3 blood over 7 rounds. If we add this up, you can either play 7 STI, and gain a total of 14 blood over 28 rounds, or you can play 4 PI, and gain a total of 12 blood over 28 rounds. To sum it up, we easily see that you gain a little more blood through the use of STI (2 blood more over 28 rounds), but you use less cards through the use of PI (3 cards over 28 rounds). So the question is simply wether you can put 3 cards in your deck which are worth more than 2 blood. If the answer to this is yes, then PI is the best, if the answer is no, then STI is best. Naturally, this is not the whole answer. There is also a question of wether you feel you can afford to pay blood in the first place, and wether it is important to you to play a master card each round. But generally, I would say that STI and PI have both about the same value, the question is just wether you want much blood, or wether you want to spend as few cards to get them as possible. Jon Inge Teigland

In article <pkittyD3...@netcom.com>, pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] i don't really think ascendence or STI are that worthwhile anyway. i find that the most effective decks are made up of roughly 25-30% master cards. if you are playing a 3 player game, the rules state that you have 60 cards. i have a really hard time finding 20 or less masters to put in my deck. if you put 4 ascendences in your deck, or even less, that cuts alot of better cards you could be playing, like giants blood, metro underground, hunting grounds, blood dolls, arcane library... then again, rumors of gehanna and Anson alievate the problem of limiting masters. if you do have either of those, then the long term investment STARTS to be worthwhile. i have found that the powerbases are a bit better (although the blood can be stolen- then again, you have to waste tapping your vamp to do it). one of the best ways to always get blood is to play something like Eco terrorists (if playing Gangrel) and put a blood on an uncontrolled vamp you don't plan on getting out. when you don't need the transfers as much (or info highway) put a blood on that vamp, and then take it right off using 2 transfers. just do this every turn along with Hunting grounds and blood dolls. One more bitchin combo involving blood is this: when i play my Polit. deck with Ventrue, i use Hostile take over on a large Vamp that has just come out (take control of it) and then minion tap it the same turn (assuming i have anson out, or Rumors of gehanna). this can also be done with Malk. Dementia, but that's kind of Rude! (a bit harder though). hope i said something interesting. Harpua:)

In article <3h0goa$o...@tribune.usask.ca>, sht...@herald.usask.ca (Shane Hamish William Travis) writes: > : Nevertheless, that card is full of shit. I would not risk my chance at paying > : 3 blood when I know someone just might have a sudden reversal or arson... > > Ummm... > > Sudden Reversal can only be played at the time that the Protracted > Investment is first out out, and you would get back all the blood you > spent on the Investment. (card text of SR) > > Arson can only burn a location, and an Investment (of any type) is not a > location. > > Exactly why are you afraid of these two cards? :-) > > Shane Travis Just as a point of note, Protracted Investment is more useful than a Short Term in cases when you need to save space in your deck. For example, if you're playing an intercept/combat deck, and you need to put in as many combat and intercept cards as you can, you may wish to use the slightly more card-efficient Protracted (three blood gained for a card) as compared to the more time and blood efficient Short Term (4 turns and one initial blood for 2 blood gain). If you're putting in so many minions cards, you shouldn't miss the sacrificed master phases. And hopefully, being an intercept deck, you'll survive the 3 blood investment long enough to recoup. Remember: Toreadors pack Anson too! One more thing... Is there some kind of new ruling for the Powerbase Washington D.C.? 7 turns for 3 blood gained and a chance to LOSE 3 blood doesn't sound particularly attractive to me. Maybe if the card allowed all the blood to be taken back in one turn it would be more useful (in accordance to it's rarity). Anyway, I hope someone will hear this suggestion and at least think abt it. Finally, I applaud the move to make Concealed Weapon a non-specific card. Hope it becomes official soon. Thanks!

Robert Hubby (rah...@sonic.net) wrote: : How about this...Every turn for the first three turns, play Long Term. Then : for the next six turns, you gain 3 blood. In fact, if you carefully choose : your Master Cards, there's no need to worry about missing Master cards. : R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country. Doesn't work that way chief! The card says "Instead of playing a master card.." which means you forfeit your master action in return for taking ONE blood. You could get one blood for the next 18 turns or bring out Anson or Rumors of Ghenna to get 2 blood for the next 9 turns...

Robert Hubby (rah...@sonic.net) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] : RAH- Redwood Elf. The blood doll says to take the blood off during your master phase. It does not say "instead of playing a master card" like PI says. You can only PLAy one Blood Doll per phase but can take up to the number of blood dolls in blood to your pool. -Sauron

In article <3gvp02$e...@agate.berkeley.edu> je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (jAMES e. lIN) writes: >Nevertheless, that card is full of shit. I would not risk my chance at paying >3 blood when I know someone just might have a sudden reversal or arson... Sudden reversal will give you your blood back, and it's not a location, so Arson wouldnt work...but on to expensive wallpaper..what about ritual of the bitter rose? Is that a typo to be taken sort of like Golconda with them getting the capacity, or is it really useless if you use it in battle when a vamp. is burned? If they have no blood on them, you get nothing, etc. Anyone? -Geo