[LSJ] Winged Second and Diablerie

Scott, I have a minion armed with 2 Flame Throwers and a Ghoul Retainer and I get into combat with a Gargoyle and another Gargoyle with Winged Second. If I am at long range, can I then choose to shoot the Winged Second with my minions Flame Thrower and the non-winged Second with the Ghoul Retainer Flame Thrower. Do I send them both to torpor? Can I play two amaranths to diablerize them both? Relavent Texts: Winged Second Type: Reaction Requires: Flight [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution (as if at close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be. Amaranth Type: Combat Only usable by a vampire who can commit diablerie. Only usable when the opposing vampire should go to torpor. Diablerize the opposing vampire instead. Not usable by a vampire going to torpor. Ghoul Retainer Type: Retainer Cost: 2 pool Ghoul with 2 life. 1 strength. Each round of combat during strike resolution, the Ghoul Retainer inflicts 1 damage or may use a weapon that is not being used by the employing minion (or another retainer) during that round. This is not a strike, although it does count as "using" the weapon. Flamethrower Type: Equipment Cost: 4 pool Weapon. 2R aggravated damage each strike. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

XZealot wrote: > Scott, > I have a minion armed with 2 Flame Throwers and a Ghoul Retainer and I > get into combat with a Gargoyle and another Gargoyle with Winged > Second. > > If I am at long range, can I then choose to shoot the Winged Second > with my minions Flame Thrower and the non-winged Second with the Ghoul > Retainer Flame Thrower. > > Do I send them both to torpor? > > Can I play two amaranths to diablerize them both? Also, how many bloodhunts are there? [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: > I have a minion armed with 2 Flame Throwers and a Ghoul Retainer and I > get into combat with a Gargoyle and another Gargoyle with Winged > Second. > > If I am at long range, can I then choose to shoot the Winged Second > with my minions Flame Thrower and the non-winged Second with the Ghoul > Retainer Flame Thrower. Yes. > Do I send them both to torpor? Assuming no prevention, etc., sure. > Can I play two amaranths to diablerize them both? No. Amaranth cannot be used against the Winged Second. -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

XZealot wrote: > XZealot wrote: >>Scott, >>I have a minion armed with 2 Flame Throwers and a Ghoul Retainer and I >>get into combat with a Gargoyle and another Gargoyle with Winged >>Second. >> >>If I am at long range, can I then choose to shoot the Winged Second >>with my minions Flame Thrower and the non-winged Second with the Ghoul >>Retainer Flame Thrower. >> >>Do I send them both to torpor? >> >>Can I play two amaranths to diablerize them both? > > Also, how many bloodhunts are there? Moot in this case (there's only one diablerie -- see other response), but in general, there's one blood hunt referendum for each diablerie. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > XZealot wrote: > > I have a minion armed with 2 Flame Throwers and a Ghoul Retainer and I > > get into combat with a Gargoyle and another Gargoyle with Winged > > Second. > > > > If I am at long range, can I then choose to shoot the Winged Second > > with my minions Flame Thrower and the non-winged Second with the Ghoul > > Retainer Flame Thrower. > > Yes. > > > Do I send them both to torpor? > > Assuming no prevention, etc., sure. > > > Can I play two amaranths to diablerize them both? > > No. Amaranth cannot be used against the Winged Second. What part of card text am I missing that prevents its use? [ quoted text not captured ]

from ym take on it, the part that says the winged second is treated as a retainer for damage-dealing/blood-stealing effects is the one that prevents the diablerie via amaranth fo the winged second. retainers cannot be diablerized. cheers Luciano "The Baital" de Sampaio VEKN Anarch Baron de Curitiba

I'm guessing the part of Winged Second's text that says the Winged Second can be targeted like a retainer. You can't play Amaranth when you burn a retainer. Or the part of Amaranth that says it is only usable when the opposing vampire should go to torpor. The Winged Second is not the opposing vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: > LSJ wrote: >>XZealot wrote: >>>Can I play two amaranths to diablerize them both? >> >>No. Amaranth cannot be used against the Winged Second. > > What part of card text am I missing that prevents its use? The omission of any part that would allow it. Amaranth allows you to diablerize the opposing vampire (when the opposing vampire should go to torpor). The Winged Second is not an opposing vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

> What part of card text am I missing that prevents its use? No part of the card text prevents its use, but no part of the text allows it either. As already pointed out, the minion playing Winged [ quoted text not captured ]

See LSJ's ruling on this group where he states that the winged second is not "in combat".