Hello everybody,
Looking the spoiler list of the Sabbat, a question has
occured to me. It might have been debated already since
I'm not always up to date for the rulings.
Here's the card :
Primal Instincts
1 blood
Combat_Auspex
Strike: dodge
* Only usable by the acting vampire after the opposing minion has chosen =
his or her strike. Cancel this vampire's strike and choose a new one.
Here's my question :
Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
differently (by dodging for instance) ?
If yes, this card starts to be very interesting.
Cheers,
Olivier
>Minion A is the acting vampire and is blocked by Minion B. Minion A plays
>a dodge and Minion B does 2 Strikes, can Minion A choose which strike to
>dodge or does it have to be the first strike?
The Dodge must Dodge the first Strike by the opposing minion, so his
additional strike will always hit unless you Additional Strik and
Dodge again (which I've done before much to the chagrin of my
opponent)
>Question 2:
>Minion A is the acting vampire and is blocked by Minion B. Minion A does
>hand damage and Minion B does a nasty strike (coma), can Minion A play an
>additional strike card and dodge?
Minion A will be striking hands for the First strike and recieveing
full damage from B's strike, go directly to prevent et al. However If
Minion A wants to Add Strike a Dodge he is welcome to (assuming that
the initial strike resolves in such a manner that he does not wind up
in torpor) However few people will be impressed by additionally
striking with a dodge since it will only be effective against an
aditional strike by your opponent.
Timing of combat and Additional Strikes:
<Determine Range part Snipped>
Acting minion Declares Strike
Reacting Minion Declares Strike
Strike Modifiers and Additional Strikes can be played here
(Claws/Blur)
Damage Prevention Phase - Prevent it or eat it
Damage unprevented is healed by paying blood.
Acting minion Declares Additional Strike #1 (if he gets one)
Reacting minion Declares Additional Strike #1 (if he gets one)
Strike Modifiers can be played here (Claws)
Damage Prevention Phase - Prevent it or eat it
Damage unprevented is healed by paying blood.
Acting minion Declares Additional Strike #2 (if he gets one)
Reacting minion Declares Additional Strike #2 (if he gets one)
Strike Modifiers can be played here (Claws)
Damage Prevention Phase - Prevent it or eat it
Damage unprevented is healed by paying blood.
Acting minion Declares Additional Strike #3 (if he's Jacko ;-( )
Reacting minion Declares Additional Strike #3 (if he's Jacko ;-( )
Strike Modifiers can be played here (Claws)
Damage Prevention Phase - Prevent it or eat it
Damage unprevented is healed by paying blood.
>This has nothing to do with the above questions. Backstab's superior
>version gives the minion an additional strike, is this strike also at
>'First Strike'?
Additional Strike cannot be at First strike.
Amend the above to have first strike then normal strike then add
strikes and it'll show you why.
>This has positively nothing to do with any questions already asked. Can
>you forfiet the edge, in the case of Sabbat Threat, at anytime?
>Particularly after a bleed has been declared but not resolved (i.e. when
>you'd normaly play reaction cards)?
Yep. Technically you could do it anytime. Including the time after you
have been attempting to block and he pulls out a you can't block me
card, your response to his card playing is - burn the edge for the ST
counter. His respoonse is -OK you are still bled.
>Thanx ahead of time.
noProb
HTH
Stu
>-BlakJak
msmit...@aol.com wrote:
: Some questions for anyone:
Your questions 1 and 2 should be answered by the following:
Additional strikes do NOT happen at the same time as normal strikes.
They are not even declared at the same time. The initial strikes resolve
before either minion has a chance to use an additional strike.
: Question 1:
: Minion A is the acting vampire and is blocked by Minion B. Minion A plays: a dodge and Minion B does 2 Strikes, can Minion A choose which strike to
: dodge or does it have to be the first strike?
...and so you see that minion A only knows about the first strike when he/she
plays the dodge, and this is the strike that they dodge. After resolution,
minion B has the opportunity to do additionals.
: Question 2:: Minion A is the acting vampire and is blocked by Minion B. Minion A does
: hand damage and Minion B does a nasty strike (coma), can Minion A play an
: additional strike card and dodge?
...and again, the coma resolves before minion A has a chance to use
an additional strike, and the dodge in an additional strike could ONLY
dodge an additional strike anyway. Make sense?
: Question 3:
: This has nothing to do with the above questions. Backstab's superior: version gives the minion an additional strike, is this strike also at
: 'First Strike'?
No. Read the text carefully:
Backstab Combat Celerity 2 blood
Normal: Only usable by a vampire who successfully blocks an action.
This vampire gains First Strike for his/her first strike in the
combat. Superior: As above, with additional strike.
The "First Strike" is ONLY gained for the "first" strike in the combat.
Your additional strike would more than likely be the second strike. Note
that backstab is somewhat useless in the second round, because none of
your strikes in that round are the "first" strike in the combat.
: Question 4:
: This has positively nothing to do with any questions already asked. Can: you forfiet the edge, in the case of Sabbat Threat, at anytime?
: Particularly after a bleed has been declared but not resolved (i.e. when
: you'd normaly play reaction cards)?
No time to answer this one... I'm sure that someone else will do so. :)
-spongy
msmit...@aol.com writes:
>Question 1:
>Minion A is the acting vampire and is blocked by Minion B. Minion A plays
>a dodge and Minion B does 2 Strikes, can Minion A choose which strike to
>dodge or does it have to be the first strike?
The first one. Strikes come in pairs - yours and your oppoents.
Your dodge will negate the corresponding strike. If you gain additional
strikes as well, you could use those to dodge the subsequent strikes.
>Question 2:
>Minion A is the acting vampire and is blocked by Minion B. Minion A does
>hand damage and Minion B does a nasty strike (coma), can Minion A play an
>additional strike card and dodge?
No. Strikes are paired. The initial strikes will both resolve
before either minion has the opportunity to gain additional strikes.
Vamp A will be in Torpor by this time (Coma), so combat will end
before any additional strikes can be gained.
>Question 3:
>This has nothing to do with the above questions. Backstab's superior
>version gives the minion an additional strike, is this strike also at
>'First Strike'?
No. Card text is pretty explicit about giving on the initial strike
the "First Strike" bonus.
>Question 4:
>This has positively nothing to do with any questions already asked. Can
>you forfiet the edge, in the case of Sabbat Threat, at anytime?
>Particularly after a bleed has been declared but not resolved (i.e. when
>you'd normaly play reaction cards)?
Yes.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Voyager:
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | To boldly get lost where no
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | one has been lost before!
oliv...@salsa.inmos.co.uk (Olivier Meullemeestre) writes:
>Primal Instincts
>1 blood
>Combat_Auspex
>Strike: dodge
>* Only usable by the acting vampire after the opposing minion has chosen =
>his or her strike. Cancel this vampire's strike and choose a new one.>Here's my question :
>Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
>Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
>Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
>differently (by dodging for instance) ?>If yes, this card starts to be very interesting.
No. He can play PI, which cancels his .44 and allows him to choose
a new strike. However, that new strike must still be the .44,
because using the maneuver bound Masika to that strike for his first
strike of the round. PI doesn't lift that restriction.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Olivier Meullemeestre wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> Looking the spoiler list of the Sabbat, a question has
> occured to me. It might have been debated already since
> I'm not always up to date for the rulings.
>
> Here's the card :
>> Primal Instincts
> 1 blood
> Combat_Auspex
> Strike: dodge
> * Only usable by the acting vampire after the opposing minion has chosen =
> his or her strike. Cancel this vampire's strike and choose a new one.
>
> Here's my question :
> Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
> Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
> Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
> differently (by dodging for instance) ?
>
> If yes, this card starts to be very interesting.
>> Cheers,
>
> Olivier
No, he still must use the gun since it was used to get a maneuver.
The card does not specify that the minion MUST choose a DIFFERENT
strike, so Marsik must choose the 44 as his strike again. In
effect you get to cycle a card for a blood.
If the card HAD said you must choose a different strike, then it
would leave Marsika with no strike. Immortal Grapple forces a
similar state. Goota use the gun + can't use the gun = no strike.
> > Primal Instincts> > Strike: dodge
> > * Only usable by the acting vampire after the opposing minion has
chosen =
> > his or her strike. Cancel this vampire's strike and choose a new one.
> >
> > Here's my question :
> > Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
> > Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
> > Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
> > differently (by dodging for instance) ?> No, he still must use the gun since it was used to get a maneuver.
> The card does not specify that the minion MUST choose a DIFFERENT
> strike, so Marsik must choose the 44 as his strike again. In
> effect you get to cycle a card for a blood.
I'd like to get LSJ's take on this.
The superior explicitely <sp> states "Cancel this vampire's strike and
choose a new one". So in effect, the
strike with the .44 is cancelled. Does this mean that the Maneuver is
cancelled as well?
If not, then indeed this card is more than the wallpaper I took it for.
Sorrow
> No. He can play PI, which cancels his .44 and allows him to choose
> a new strike. However, that new strike must still be the .44,
> because using the maneuver bound Masika to that strike for his first
> strike of the round. PI doesn't lift that restriction.
Then what is the use of playing the PI? Except to lose a blood?
Sorrow
--
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My playgroup always thought that PI cancelled the strike of the acting
vampire's opponent in combat. The "cancel this vampire's strike" can be
interpreted a couple of different ways it seems.
Alex
In article <01bc0af4$f8ecd5a0$0758...@Chris.apdi.net> "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> writes:
>>> No. He can play PI, which cancels his .44 and allows him to choose
>> a new strike. However, that new strike must still be the .44,
>> because using the maneuver bound Masika to that strike for his first
>> strike of the round. PI doesn't lift that restriction.>
>Then what is the use of playing the PI? Except to lose a blood?
Suppose that a maneuver card was used to do the maneuver? In
that case, the vampire could choose a *different* strike, like a
dodge. This card is very useful in celerity offense decks, where
it helps to be able to choose strikes second if you want. It
helps you fake out the defender -- a feint, if you will.
I think it's a very powerful card, hardly wallpaper. Great
card for Brujah and Assamites. Wish I had more than one!
--
Tom Doehne
Hello Everybody,
I've asked a week ago a question about Primal Instincts.
But since that, our news proxy has been down and if an answer has been
posted I've been unable to see it.
So I repost it, along with an other question about Immortal Grapple.
If a minion uses the maneuver of a weapon, and after the range has been
finally determined is under the influence of IG, what happens :
- he strikes with his hand, since he has to (forgetting that he was
supposed to use his weapon)
- he has no strike ?
And what happen to an ally that has no "hand damage" but 2R instead ?
Here's the precedent question.
|> Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
|> Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
|> Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
|> differently (by dodging for instance) ?
Thanks in advance.
Olivier
oliv...@marlon.inmos.co.uk (Olivier Meullemeestre) writes:
>I've asked a week ago a question about Primal Instincts.
>But since that, our news proxy has been down and if an answer has been
>posted I've been unable to see it.
>So I repost it, along with an other question about Immortal Grapple.>If a minion uses the maneuver of a weapon, and after the range has been
>finally determined is under the influence of IG, what happens :
>- he strikes with his hand, since he has to (forgetting that he was
>supposed to use his weapon)
>- he has no strike ?
He has no strike - due to the mutually exclusive requirements.
>And what happen to an ally that has no "hand damage" but 2R instead ?
He strikes with a hand strike (hand for 0, most likely -
but it could be ruled to be a non-damaging hand strike.
The latter would not be modifiable by Lucky Blow, while
the former would be).
>Here's the precedent question.
>|> Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
>|> Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
>|> Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
>|> differently (by dodging for instance) ?
No. He can play PI, which cancels his .44 and allows him to choose
a new strike. However, that new strike must still be the .44,
because using the maneuver bound Masika to that strike for his first
strike of the round. PI doesn't lift that restriction.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Refuse Novacaine -
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Transcend Dental Medication!
[ quoted text not captured ]
Olivier Meullemeestre wrote:
>
> Hello Everybody,>
> I've asked a week ago a question about Primal Instincts.
> But since that, our news proxy has been down and if an answer has been
> posted I've been unable to see it.
> So I repost it, along with an other question about Immortal Grapple.
>
> If a minion uses the maneuver of a weapon, and after the range has been
> finally determined is under the influence of IG, what happens :
> - he strikes with his hand, since he has to (forgetting that he was
> supposed to use his weapon)
> - he has no strike ?> And what happen to an ally that has no "hand damage" but 2R instead ?
>> Here's the precedent question.
> |> Let's say Masika and his faithful .44 are blocked by someone.
> |> Masika uses the maneuver of the .44 to set the range at long.
> |> Can he use the PI to cancel the strike with the .44 to strike
> |> differently (by dodging for instance) ?
>> Thanks in advance.
>
> Olivier
Hi Olivier, The above case is mute, the reason being the minion using
Immortal Grapple would not be able to play the card is minion b set the
range to long, I quote "Only usablr at close Range before strikes are
chosen....." If minion a used a manuver on a gun to go to long range
minion b can't play the IG, Primal Instincts to me is up to your group,
my group has opted to change the card text because we feel the card is
usless other wise we play PI to say that you use it to cancel the
opposing minions strike instead of there own, thats just the way we play
it and I am not saying you have to.
Errol T
Errol T (etre...@compusmart.ab.ca) wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
: Errol T
Primal Instincts is a card that is intended to be used by acting
minions. Acting minions are normally at a disadvantage in combat as they
are obliged to choose their strike first, without knowing what their
opponent's strike is. Your opponent, however, gets to wait to see what
you're going to do before making his decision. Using primal instincts
can change this equation.
Example 1: You bleed. Your opponent blocks. You know that your
opponent has lots of majesties in his hand, and you want to fool him into
not using them, so you play dodge as your strike. Your opponent feels
safe now, and does not want to waste his majesty card, and so chooses
plain hand damage as his strike. You then whip out primal instincts,
yell HA HA FOOLED YOU, and proceed to do all sorts of horrible aggravated
damage with a different strike.
Example 2: Sheldon bums rushes a Aggripina, intending to burn her by
striking with a bastard sword and undead strength (followed later by
pulled fangs). After you've chosen your strike, however, Aggipina whips
out a Saturday Night Special using Disguised Weapon, and strikes with
Dragon Breath rounds. Sheldon realizes that he really would prefer to
play the dodge he has in his hand instead.....
I've not played with the card enough to determine if it is really worth
putting in a deck. But if you really feel the card is underpowered, why
don't you just ignore the 1 blood cost. That would make far more sense
than completely altering its intended use.
JB Whelan
John Whelan wrote:
*Large Snip of Olivier Post*
Then I wrote this
> : Hi Olivier, The above case is mute, the reason being the minion using
> : Immortal Grapple would not be able to play the card is minion b set the
> : range to long, I quote "Only usablr at close Range before strikes are
> : chosen....." If minion a used a manuver on a gun to go to long range
> : minion b can't play the IG, Primal Instincts to me is up to your group,
> : my group has opted to change the card text because we feel the card is
> : usless other wise we play PI to say that you use it to cancel the
> : opposing minions strike instead of there own, thats just the way we play
> : it and I am not saying you have to.
>
> : Errol T
The JB wrote this,
> Primal Instincts is a card that is intended to be used by acting
> minions. Acting minions are normally at a disadvantage in combat as they
> are obliged to choose their strike first, without knowing what their
> opponent's strike is. Your opponent, however, gets to wait to see what
> you're going to do before making his decision. Using primal instincts
> can change this equation.
>
> Example 1: You bleed. Your opponent blocks. You know that your
> opponent has lots of majesties in his hand, and you want to fool him into
> not using them, so you play dodge as your strike. Your opponent feels
> safe now, and does not want to waste his majesty card, and so chooses
> plain hand damage as his strike. You then whip out primal instincts,
> yell HA HA FOOLED YOU, and proceed to do all sorts of horrible aggravated
> damage with a different strike.
Here is where our play groups differ in my play group the opposing minion
will play the Majesty just to card cycle, and If the oppposing minion is
in combat with someone like say Lazvernis..... I really doubt he would be
dumb enough not to play the Majesty.
> Example 2: Sheldon bums rushes a Aggripina, intending to burn her by
> striking with a bastard sword and undead strength (followed later by
> pulled fangs). After you've chosen your strike, however, Aggipina whips
> out a Saturday Night Special using Disguised Weapon, and strikes with
> Dragon Breath rounds. Sheldon realizes that he really would prefer to
> play the dodge he has in his hand instead.....
The Sheldon should get smart and do this,Drawing out the beast,Torn Sign
Post, Immortal Grapple, Decapitate, or Disarm, and bye bye Aggripina.
> I've not played with the card enough to determine if it is really worth
> putting in a deck. But if you really feel the card is underpowered, why
> don't you just ignore the 1 blood cost. That would make far more sense
> than completely altering its intended use.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I still like our groups decision.
Errol T
"Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote:
>> No. He can play PI, which cancels his .44 and allows him to choose
>> a new strike. However, that new strike must still be the .44,
>> because using the maneuver bound Masika to that strike for his first
>> strike of the round. PI doesn't lift that restriction.>Then what is the use of playing the PI? Except to lose a blood?
I'm using them to good effect in a limited combat Tremere A-T deck...
I hate truly abusive cards like TB, so this works for me.
Given the proliferation of S:CE cards in my group, I found this to be
a useful thing, so as to not waste Thaum. resources for second round
combat. If my opponent uses Majesty, fine. His strike goes off, and
I don't have to waste my Burst of Sunlight, or Walk of Flame. Next
comes Rev. Blackwood with a Hidden Lurker (heh,heh..) Not the most
foolproof of solutions, but no one can claim that it's a broken
combo...
Its very effective for making Tremere pro-active in combat, meaning
that you don't have to play heavy intercept, just to choose your
strikes second. It also allows them to really go after specific
minions (Ambush, Bum's Rush).
>Sorrow
>--
> I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
> anymore |--------------------------------
> I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
> anymore | you never seen anyone try to
> I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
R. David Zopf
guenh...@mindspring.com
"This argument reeks of Kant, or whiskey, or both...."