press step and end of round...explain somebody...please

Hey all, having a few troubles coming to grips with a particular flow of card play in the game. See, our playgroup always played that, in combat, the press step and "end of the round" were one and the same thing. However, it has come to our (playgroups) attention that this is not the case, and it seems a little strange (and unnecessarily convoluted) to us. To the heart of the matter...does anybody else find it strange (and I hope I have this right) that a minion in combat must play any presses to continue/cancel *before* they play other end of round cards such as "disarm" and "taste of vitae"? From the Camarilla rulebook: "6.4.4. Press At the end of a round of combat (if both combatants are still ready), the combatants will either go their separate ways (the default) or one of them will give chase. Presses can be used to continue combat (start another round of combat) or to end combat (cancel an opponent's press),..." Indicates to me that a press can _only_ be played at the _end of a round_. Disarm [Sabbat, SW, CE] Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Potence [pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire; not usable by a vampire going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength; he or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only 1 Disarm. Again, indicates that it can _only_ be played at the _end of a round_. So, where is the distinction? Can someone explain it to me (us)? Thanks, -Scrote

> >Hey all, > >having a few troubles coming to grips with a particular flow of card >play in the game. > >See, our playgroup always played that, in combat, the press step and >"end of the round" were one and the same thing. However, it has come >to our (playgroups) attention that this is not the case, and it seems >a little strange (and unnecessarily convoluted) to us. > >To the heart of the matter...does anybody else find it strange (and I >hope I have this right) that a minion in combat must play any presses >to continue/cancel *before* they play other end of round cards such as >"disarm" and "taste of vitae"? I always think of it as... Disarm and taste of vitae is AFTER a round of combat... A round ends is after you decline/or pressed at the end of it... So you can still play Taste, pulled fangs, disarm, etc after a S:CE... Or other End combat methods... Presses on the other hand are played before the end of a round of combat... If somebody S:ce/end combat, you can't press... Hope that helps...

In message <b618d4f6.03031...@posting.google.com>, scrote <mud...@hotmail.com> writes: >Again, indicates that it can _only_ be played at the _end of a round_. > >So, where is the distinction? Can someone explain it to me (us)? When the round of combat ends "normally", you get the press step. This is detailed in the combat sequence in the rules book. However, there are ways for a round of combat to end abnormally. For instance, Strike: Combat Ends, Purchase Pact, Elysium: The Aboretum, sending someone to torpor via aggravated damage and so on. Since combat ends, the round also ends. However, you haven't usually reached the press step - so you don't do presses. But other cards that rely on the end of a round can fit in here. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

alber...@aol.com (albert1642) wrote in message news:<20030315185736...@mb-mb.aol.com>... > > > >Hey all, > > > >having a few troubles coming to grips with a particular flow of card > >play in the game. > > > >See, our playgroup always played that, in combat, the press step and > >"end of the round" were one and the same thing. However, it has come > >to our (playgroups) attention that this is not the case, and it seems > >a little strange (and unnecessarily convoluted) to us. > > > >To the heart of the matter...does anybody else find it strange (and I > >hope I have this right) that a minion in combat must play any presses > >to continue/cancel *before* they play other end of round cards such as > >"disarm" and "taste of vitae"? > > I always think of it as... Disarm and taste of vitae is AFTER a round of > combat... A round ends is after you decline/or pressed at the end of it... Not by the wording on the card(s) and in the online rulebook. "Disarm [Sabbat, SW, CE] Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Potence [pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat ..." "6.4.4. Press At the end of a round of combat..." It *seems* straightforward, doesn't it? So > you can still play Taste, pulled fangs, disarm, etc after a S:CE... Or other > End combat methods... Presses on the other hand are played before the end of > a round of combat... If somebody S:ce/end combat, you can't press... Hope > that helps... I always thought that you couldn't press because *combat* (nothing to do with the end of round, although that is also happening...) has ended via the S:CE, hence no more combat cards...you raise another interesting point though. S:CE ends combat immediately (upon resolution), and while I know that it can be done, *how* is there time for a combat card (such as disarm) to be played? Guess it comes down to end of combat/end of round being one and the same. Still seems a little vague to me. In general however, you seemed to have missed the point of my post (or perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my meaning). I have no problem understanding when the cards are played. My problem lies in how these timings can be interpreted from the current rulebook and card texts. Press is played at the end of a round. Disarm, taste, etc... are also at the end of the round. So why does one have to be played before the other? I'm not trying to be difficult here, a couple of us guys in the local playgroup are just curious is all :) -Scrote

[ quoted text not captured ] You can still play pulled fangs, disarm, and taste after S:CE though... That's how I make the distinction... Press are before round ends while fangs/taste/disarm is played after the round of combat is complete... 6.4.1. Combat Sequence Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat has three steps: Determine Range. Use maneuvers to set the range to close or long. Strike. Announce and resolve strikes. Press. Use presses to continue into another round or to end combat. Press is actually a part of the rounds combat sequence... Just at the end of it... While cards like disarm, taste, and pulled fangs don't have a combat sequence of their own... They are played after a round... Which ends after the press stage... (My point is 'press' is during a round of combat just at the end of it... )

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<wCL5cV++...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <b618d4f6.03031...@posting.google.com>, scrote > <mud...@hotmail.com> writes: > >Again, indicates that it can _only_ be played at the _end of a round_. > > > >So, where is the distinction? Can someone explain it to me (us)? > > When the round of combat ends "normally", you get the press step. This > is detailed in the combat sequence in the rules book. > Arrgh! Talk about out of context. Mr Coupe, If you are going to reply, then take the tine to read my question. Which was, "To the heart of the matter...does anybody else find it strange (and I hope I have this right) that a minion in combat must play any presses to continue/cancel *before* they play other end of round cards such as "disarm" and "taste of vitae"?" > However, there are ways for a round of combat to end abnormally. For > instance, Strike: Combat Ends, Purchase Pact, Elysium: The Aboretum, > sending someone to torpor via aggravated damage and so on. Hmm, ok, maybe I wasn't exactly clear :p Assuming combat does not end "abnormally", why should I have to declare any intention to press *before* I play taste, disarm, etc... (which is our current understanding of the rules)? > > > Since combat ends, the round also ends. > > However, you haven't usually reached the press step - so you don't do > presses. > > But other cards that rely on the end of a round can fit in here. Now, to this other, seperate issue (that arose from albert1642's first reply)... I understand how the cards are played. I want to know why (preferably with a reference to the rules) it works. If S:CE ends combat immediately, "6.4.5. Strike Effects ... Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately....", or if combat is *ended* by some other, abnormal means, how can I then rip of someones arm (I would like to emphasise, our playgroup plays according to these rules...we just don't *get* them:)? Isn't combat _over_? How does a minion play combat cards once combat has ended? "1.6.3. Minion Cards ... 4. Combat cards: These are played by minions when in combat ..." I know what the mechanics are (I hope), I just can't seem to find any substantial basis for them in the online rulebook. If, Mr Coupe, you would be so kind as to enlighten our playgroup with a whiz-bang rules reference, or with a logical breakdown of the combat processes, well, then we would be very grateful :) -Scrote

alber...@aol.com (albert1642) wrote in message news:<20030316203609...@mb-mq.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Hmm, again I fall back to (perhaps somewhat mindlessly) the offical card text and the online rulebook: "6.4.4. Press At the end of a round of combat (if both combatants are still ready), the combatants will either go their separate ways (the default) or one of them will give chase. Presses can be used to continue combat (start another round of combat) or to end combat (cancel an opponent's press),..." Indicates to me that a press can only be played at the _end of a round of combat_. Disarm [Sabbat, SW, CE] Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Potence [pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire; not usable by a vampire going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength; he or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only 1 Disarm. Again, indicates that it can only be played at the _end of a round of combat_. If you look very, very carefully, then you will notice that nowhere does it say that presses are "before the round ends" nor that "fangs/taste/disarm is played after the round of combat is complete" What it does say, and quite clearly, is that both timings are at the "end of the round of combat" (which, to my mind, actually *is* before the round ends), which seems to indicate that they are played in exactly the same timing window (ie no requisite for play order). Of course this "end of round" window occurs not only in the press step, but also when combat is ended by other "abnormal" means (thank you Mr. Coupe). __Obviously__ there is no chance to press when combat has ended via these means, combat is now over (let me just say, I understand ___completely___ that a press cannot be played after a S:CE. My original post was somewhat ambiguous in that regard. My first question was supposed to be re: end of round cards in a combat that is ending "normally". I have _since_ become curious as to the logic in allowing certain cards to be played at the end of a combat that has been finished "abnormally", but have been trying to treat that as a slightly different issue. I apologise for my lack of clarity), but why can other end of round combat effects still be played? "6.4.5. Strike Effects ... Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately..." Is it safe to assume that a combat ended by "abnormal" means other than S:CE is also ended immediately? I would think yes. So how, if combat is now *over*, can further combat cards be played? End of the round my ass, combat cards can only be played in combat, combat is over, no more combat cards. Surely? "1.6.3. Minion Cards ... 4. Combat cards: These are played by minions when in combat " > > 6.4.1. Combat Sequence > Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat has three > steps: > > Determine Range. Use maneuvers to set the range to close or long. > > Strike. Announce and resolve strikes. > > Press. Use presses to continue into another round or to end combat. > > Press is actually a part of the rounds combat sequence... Just at the end of > it... Yep, you're right, presses are part of the combat sequence, and they're played at the end of the <normal> round. >While cards like disarm, taste, and pulled fangs don't have a combat > sequence of their own... Yes they do, "played at the end of the round". Perhaps they aren't part of the magical "three steps of combat", but what difference does that make? End of round is end of round, period (barring S:CE aberrations ;). >They are played after a round... Which ends after > the press stage... (My point is 'press' is during a round of combat just at > the end of it... ) While text seems to indicate otherwise: "Disarm Only usable at the end of a round of combat... " Press is played at the *end of the <normal> round* Disarm is played at the *end of the round* If some sort of timing issue is supposed to exist (and we all know it does), should then the cards, or the rules, should be worded differently. Maybe LSJ can help me (us) out with a more adequate (to my mind) explanation of the pertinent mechanics? -Scrote

scrote wrote: > Maybe LSJ can help me (us) out with a more adequate (to my mind) > explanation of the pertinent mechanics? You've got it pretty well covered there, and make a good point. I'll toss this around in front of the RT for discussion. The current explanation: Presses are played in the press step. The press step is the third of three named phases in combat, so it is described as being last, or occurring at the end of the round. But presses are played in the press step, and end of round stuff is done after the other stuff (other stuff including presses, which are press step stuff by definition). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"scrote" <mud...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b618d4f6.03031...@posting.google.com... I'm skipping the "playing presses at the same time as "end of round" effects issue, as I think you make a good point there and it would probably make sense to play them in the same timing window. So I'm just talking about the "combat cards "after" combat is ending" question. > Of course this "end of round" window occurs not only in the press > step, but also when combat is ended by other "abnormal" means (thank > you Mr. Coupe). > > __Obviously__ there is no chance to press when combat has ended via > these means, combat is now over [snip] > but why can other end of round combat effects still be played? > > "6.4.5. Strike Effects > ... > Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately..." > > Is it safe to assume that a combat ended by "abnormal" means other > than S:CE is also ended immediately? I would think yes. So how, if > combat is now *over*, can further combat cards be played? End of the > round my ass, combat cards can only be played in combat, combat is > over, no more combat cards. Surely? There are at least some combat cards that have to be played "when combat is ending". That is, more or less, "while" combat is ending - you have to already know it's ending to be able to play them. Decapitate, for example, is only playable when an opposing vampire is going to torpor; the fact that they're going to torpor is causing combat to end, but while combat is "in the middle" of ending, you can play Decapitate to burn them instead. Likewise Amaranth. On the opposite side, Undead Persistence has to be played when combat is about to end because *you're* going to torpor; it changes that to make combat continue instead. As these are all combat cards, they sort of imply that other "end of round" combat cards should also be playable even if the "end of round" is coming about because of the "end of combat". That is, things like Taste of Vitae and Disarm are playable while combat is ending because the round is also ending. This is equally true, I think, of a combat that ends normally as it is of one that ends "abnormally" (eg because one combatant is on the way to torpor due to strike damage, or because a Strike: Combat Ends has been played, etc): if there is no press to continue, combat will end. That is also when the round will end. And that's when Taste of Vitae would have to be played - therefore it's playable. Since it's playable at the end of a normal round which is also the end of combat, it should also (IMO) be playable at the abnormal end of a combat, which is also the end of a round. Right? If I haven't just confused everyone with my circular phrasing, anyway. :-) Josh it's vicious. and a circle.

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<b57jas$253oen$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > "scrote" <mud...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:b618d4f6.03031...@posting.google.com... > [snip] [ quoted text not captured ] I see definite difference between combat *may* be about to end and combat is *over*. To me, the pertinent question (because I can't answer it) is, does "going to torpor" end the combat, or is it more the case that "reaching torpor" ends it? I will have to make a few assumptions here: 1)Being *in* torpor ends combat. 2)Obviously :p, being *on the way* to torpor does not (otherwise you couldn't decapitate someone;) Now, I'm not positive on how the going to/being in torpor mechanics are handled (as far as the RT is concerned), but I would think (and am obviously mistaken :)- a)You should not be able to (but can) disarm a vampire on the way to torpor. Disarm is end of round, and the round does not end until the opposing minion is actually *in* torpor, at which point the combat is over. Furthermore, disarm, in the current rules should _only_ be playable in the press step. As an aside, in this scenario, would it make sense that disarm could be played before presses (*but still in the press step), and also after presses, but only if there has been a successfull press to continue (otherwise combat would be over)? Of course, LSJ has already clarified how press and end of round are handled, but I still think it's interesting to talk about. b)The timing window for cards such as undead persistence and decapitate to be played exists because they are played on a minion that is *on the way* to torpor. Combat will not actually end until that minion is *in* torpor. This would make more sense when you look at a card such as; Provision of the Silsila [FN] Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction Clan: Assamite This card can be played as an action modifier or a reaction card. Usable by a tapped vampire. Only usable after a combat involving this Assamite and an opposing minion with a contract naming this Assamite. Only usable if the opposing minion is not ready and this Assamite is ready. This Assamite gains enough blood from the blood bank to reach full capacity, and the contract is burned. It seems to operate on the similar principles as decapitate and undead persistence, except that it actually requires that the minion is 100% not ready (and not just on the way to being not ready). Notice that it's no longer a combat card? Because a combat card wouldn't be playable if the oppposing minion wasn't ready as combat would now be over. Of course, I am probably reading way too much into this (and making a fool of myself at the same time). In fact, I can already think of problem situations if the above were to hold true. No more taste of vitae if you send the opposing minion to torpor (cause combat's over...and being on the way to torpor, while still in comabt, isn't end of round)? Arrgh!! It just seems strange to have such a strongly stated effect such as S:CE and then somehow allow cards to be played after said effect has been applied. And the rules don't really seem to back it up. > That is, things like Taste of Vitae and Disarm are playable > while combat is ending because the round is also ending. Yes, but, the combat/round is *ending* isn't really the same as the *end* of the round (is it?). Combat is ending is more like, "combat *may* be about to end...*or* some other effect could cause it to continue". I have an image of a game commentary, "Oh, and Jacko has just belted Spider-Killer for 10, no prevention here, this combat is -most likely over-. Wait! Oh! What a play! Spider killer has just whipped out an undead persistence, looks like this fight is going the distance! This is just beautiful to watch, and crows should see both combatants entering torpor at the conclusion of this combat..." Press step and a regular end of round (having been _defined_ in the rules as an end of round occurence) excepted, the only other real time an end of round occurs is when combat ends. And the description of abnormally ending combats seems to preclude the playing of any further combat cards. > > This is equally true, I think, of a combat that ends normally > as it is of one that ends "abnormally" (eg because one > combatant is on the way to torpor due to strike damage, or > because a Strike: Combat Ends has been played, etc) I disagree. The description of a "normally" ending combat makes allowances for the playing of end of round cards by including them as a part of the press step (well, LSJ has actually squashed that idea - discussion pending - , but I will ignore that for the moment. He still makes allowances for end of round stuff in a "normal" combat). Of course being able to play combat cards after both players have declined to press would make no sense (in my world) as again, combat would be over. That's fine though. Allow me to quote myself, "As an aside, in this scenario, would it make sense that disarm could be played before presses (but still in the press step), and also after presses, but only if there has been a successfull press to continue (otherwise combat would be over)? " Abnormally ending combats have no such windows of opportunity for further combat cards to played. >: if there > is no press to continue, combat will end. That is also when > the round will end. And that's when Taste of Vitae would have > to be played - therefore it's playable. See above quote. > Since it's playable > at the end of a normal round which is also the end of combat, > it should also (IMO) be playable at the abnormal end of a > combat, which is also the end of a round. Right? If I haven't > just confused everyone with my circular phrasing, anyway. :-) > I'm stupid anyway, but I see where you are coming from. Thing is, I just can't agree that this kind of play can be inferred from the current rules and card text(s). Don't get me wrong, I like playing taste of vitae after knocking someone to torpor, but I just don't know that I should. > Josh > > it's vicious. and a circle. -Scrote Rock, good ol' rock. Nothin' beats rock.