What stays, and what goes?

This was a big problem at one of the OrcCon Tournaments (Praxis Seizure Los Angeles) last weekend. What exactly stays and what goes when a player is ousted? Rumors of Gehenna? 1st Tradition? Anarch Revolt? Fame on another Methuselah's vampire? Charnas the Imp? Please if possible cite the rulings - whether the rule book or an errata, ruling, or clarification. I think it was ruled that all master cards that are not locations controlled by someone else go away, as do equipment, retainers, allies, and vampires. But other "effects" stay in play, esp. ones brought about by votes. Thanks, Chris -- Tammy Martin 5'7" Alexander Shorb 2'10" Chris Shorb 5'11" Shameless plug: <http://www.graphicnovels.com/>

On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb wrote: > This was a big problem at one of the OrcCon Tournaments (Praxis > Seizure Los Angeles) last weekend. What exactly stays and what goes > when a player is ousted? Any cards you control are burned when you are ousted. If they are cards you control but which are from another Methuselah (you stole/were given them), they go into their ash heap. Unless specific card text rules otherwise, or an effect specifically changes the controller (e.g. Disputed Territory): - All minion cards are controlled by the c ontroller of the minion they're on (e.g. the Brass Knuckles on Koko are controlled by Koko's controller) - All master cards are controlled by the Methuselah who played them (so a Haven Uncovered on *your* vampire is still mine if it was played by me, so the (D) action to burn it is against me) > Rumors of Gehenna? Implicitly, the card is put in play (it doesn't explicitly state to do so, but you can burn it). When you go, you control it (assuming you called the vote). So it burns. > 1st Tradition? Implicitly, the card is put in play (it doesn't explicitly state to do so, but you can burn it). When you go, you control it (assuming you called the vote). So it burns. > Anarch > Revolt? You control it, if you played it. It goes. > Fame on another Methuselah's vampire? You control it, if you played it. It goes. > Charnas the Imp? Controlled by the player whose minion it is on. If that's you, it goes with you. -- James Coupe

In article <38B72754...@alumni.williams.edu>, shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > This was a big problem at one of the OrcCon Tournaments (Praxis > Seizure Los Angeles) last weekend. What exactly stays and what goes > when a player is ousted? Rumors of Gehenna? 1st Tradition? Anarch > Revolt? Fame on another Methuselah's vampire? Charnas the Imp? Please > if possible cite the rulings - whether the rule book or an errata, > ruling, or clarification. I think it was ruled that all master cards > that are not locations controlled by someone else go away, as do > equipment, retainers, allies, and vampires. But other "effects" stay > in play, esp. ones brought about by votes. > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -- > Tammy Martin 5'7" > Alexander Shorb 2'10" > Chris Shorb 5'11" > Shameless plug: > <http://www.graphicnovels.com/> > ------------------------------------------------- I'm extremely interested in this clarification. I would like to see where the clarification that you referenced was made and who made it. Also, I'll email LSJ. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

James Coupe wrote: > > On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb wrote: > > This was a big problem at one of the OrcCon Tournaments (Praxis > > Seizure Los Angeles) last weekend. What exactly stays and what goes > > when a player is ousted? > > Any cards you control are burned when you are ousted. If they are cards > you control but which are from another Methuselah (you stole/were given > them), they go into their ash heap. > > Unless specific card text rules otherwise, or an effect specifically > changes the controller (e.g. Disputed Territory): > > - All minion cards are controlled by the c ontroller of the minion they're > on (e.g. the Brass Knuckles on Koko are controlled by Koko's controller) > > - All master cards are controlled by the Methuselah who played them (so a > Haven Uncovered on *your* vampire is still mine if it was played by me, so > the (D) action to burn it is against me) > Please cite the rules. I have looked over my copy of the rules as well as the errata/rulings/clarifications list, and I don't see it in there anywhere. And I would argue that Rumors and 1st and other votes like them - their effects remain in play, since you don't actually "put the card in play". You say "implicitly" - but why is it implicit? People use the cards as reminders on the table, but the text does not say "Put the card in play". In particular, Rumors can be burned by a non-directed action - which can mean that it is not in anyone's control, but instead is now an "effect". It merely states the effect of a positive vote. Sort of like Kindred Restructure. Do you revert to the old seating order when the person who played Kindred Restructure is ousted? Just because it is an ongoing effect as opposed to a one time event, there is no rules basis that I can find that differentiates the "permanence" of Kindred Restructure from 1st Tradition, or Reversal of Fortunes from Rumors of Gehenna. Chris > > Rumors of Gehenna? > > Implicitly, the card is put in play (it doesn't explicitly state to do so, > but you can burn it). When you go, you control it (assuming you called > the vote). So it burns. > > > 1st Tradition? > > Implicitly, the card is put in play (it doesn't explicitly state to do > so, but you can burn it). When you go, you control it (assuming you > called the vote). So it burns. > > > Anarch > > Revolt? > > You control it, if you played it. It goes. > > > Fame on another Methuselah's vampire? > > You control it, if you played it. It goes. > > > Charnas the Imp? > > Controlled by the player whose minion it is on. If that's you, it goes > with you. > > -- > > James Coupe -- [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb wrote: > Please cite the rules. I am paraphrasing LSJ. A search on DejaNews would find that for you. Alternatively, wait until he gets back on Monday (this being how his work patterns seem to go), and he will be able to authoratitively state that. However, it *is* to the very, very best of my knowledge, entirely correct. Brief insert: going to DejaNews I find: "Yes. All cards in play are controlled by a specific Methuselah. Each Crypt card in play is controlled by the Methuselah who put it into play. Each Master card in play is controlled controlled by the Methuselah who put it into play. Each Minion card is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. If it is not on a minion, then it is controlled by the Methuselah who put it into play." Try: http://x44.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=434410523 &CONTEXT=951603762.810418198&hitnum=2 (stick it all together, no spaces) It's from early 1999, but I've never seen it ruled any other way, that I can recall. Certainly, not since then. >I have looked over my copy of the rules as > well as the errata/rulings/clarifications list, and I don't see it in > there anywhere. And I would argue that Rumors and 1st and other votes > like them - their effects remain in play, since you don't actually > "put the card in play". You say "implicitly" - but why is it > implicit? One cannot burn a card (as per card text) unless it is put in play first. That is what is meant by implicit. > People use the cards as reminders on the table, but the > text does not say "Put the card in play". But the card can be burned. Therefore, it *must* have been put in play, else there is no point to the burn clause. > In particular, Rumors can > be burned by a non-directed action A political action, actually. >- which can mean that it is not in > anyone's control, but instead is now an "effect". Rumors *itself* can be burned. Not the *effect* overturned. Rumors can be burned. By so doing, the effect is overturned. This is implicit in the wording of the card. "Any vampire can burn this card with a successful vote; calling this vote is a +1 stealth action." As per card text, from The Deck Monger utilities. > It merely states > the effect of a positive vote. Sort of like Kindred Restructure. Do > you revert to the old seating order when the person who played Kindred > Restructure is ousted? No. Kindred Restructure has no built in ability to burn it. > Just because it is an ongoing effect as > opposed to a one time event, there is no rules basis that I can find > that differentiates the "permanence" of Kindred Restructure from 1st > Tradition, or Reversal of Fortunes from Rumors of Gehenna. Reversal of Fortunes has no burn clause referencing the card. Nor does Kindred Restructure. These are not rules, these are card texts. <snip - remainder of post> Please, please, please don't just quote the entire post if you only want to reference a small portion at the top. Just quote the bit you need. -- James Coupe

James Coupe wrote: > > On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb wrote: > > Please cite the rules. > > > "Yes. All cards in play are controlled by a specific Methuselah. > Each Crypt card in play is controlled by the Methuselah who > put it into play. > Each Master card in play is controlled controlled by the Methuselah who > put it into play. > Each Minion card is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. > If it is not on a minion, then it is controlled by the > Methuselah who put it into play." > I can accept this. Now all I need is a citation on LSJ's Rulemonger website, or in the .pdf rules file. This is what my player's consider official, including myself. I'll wait for LSJ's response. > > Please, please, please don't just quote the entire post if you only want > to reference a small portion at the top. Just quote the bit you need. > > Ok Chris [ quoted text not captured ]

"Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb" wrote: > James Coupe wrote: > > "Yes. All cards in play are controlled by a specific Methuselah. > > Each Crypt card in play is controlled by the Methuselah who > > put it into play. > > Each Master card in play is controlled controlled by the Methuselah who > > put it into play. > > Each Minion card is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. > > If it is not on a minion, then it is controlled by the > > Methuselah who put it into play." > > I can accept this. Now all I need is a citation on LSJ's Rulemonger > website, or in the .pdf rules file. This is what my player's consider > official, including myself. I'll wait for LSJ's response. Citations of posts by the official net.rep. should be considered official (since they are). The Rulemonger website has a database of *selected* official posts, that is all. The posts cited therein were official even before being entered in the database. Anyone is free to collect such posts into their own database. (I'll add this control stuff to the Rulemonger database). (BTW, James, the citation of dejanews URLs can end with the Article Number (AN), and you can delete the [ST_rn=ps] stuff (to make it easier for the link to be correctly handles by newsreaders, etc.)) As in: http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434410523 Except possibly for Charnas (and other minion cards which are "on" minions), players apparently "know" this rule instinctively. For minion cards on minions, players seem to be playing it correctly for Fortune Teller, Jackal, Hand of Conrad, Monocle of Clarity, Mummy's Tongue, Palatial Estate, Talbot's Chainsaw, and Vial of Elder Vitae. But those cards are played/transferred infrequently enough to cast suspicion on that assertion. Also, the errata to cards like Phobia sort of points towards the truth. (Minion cards are controlled by the controller of the minion they are on.) Players know "who controls Army of Rats?", right? The action to burn it is directed (at its controller). And it affects "your" (the controller's) prey during "your" untap phase. First Tradition is burned when "you" have skipped three turns or paid 6 pool. Since players know who controls it for purposes of that part of the effect, they should know who controls it for purposes of the Golden Rule of Card Ownership. And, if they know who controls First Tradition, Rumors of Gehenna follows naturally. (Minion cards in play are controlled. If they are not possessed by minions, then they are simply controlled by the Methuselah who played them.) Players know "who controls Powerbase: X?" and "who controls Pentex Subversion?" and "Who controls Haven Uncovered?" - you know at whom the (D) action to burn/steal is directed. Control of Anarch Revolt and Fame follows this pattern. (Master cards are controlled by the Methuselah who played them). -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, LSJ wrote: > (BTW, James, the citation of dejanews URLs can end with the Article Number (AN), > and you can delete the [ST_rn=ps] stuff (to make it easier for the link > to be correctly handles by newsreaders, etc.)) As in: I know... i just always forget what needs to stay, and what doesn't. -- James Coupe