Favorite library card is : Tomb of Ramses III , even after the card text
changed 7,956 times I still love this card. Vampire Fun Fact: A second turn
Parnassus can make some people wet themselves.
Hated Library card: Majesty. Suggested New Errata: playing this card four
times in a turn could cause controller to draw back a bloody stump.
Mike
Matthew Heslin <hes...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:01bf5267$921f57e0$0838aec7@wyld...
> ...and as long as we're on the topic of cards you like,
> and cards you hate, what about the one with the green
> backs?
>
> I can speak for myself and say that I have
> a deep and abiding hatred for Telepathic Counter. It's
> a reaction, costs nothing, requires no taps, no combat,
> no nothing -- just ruins your day as a bleeder. I can
> thank Rob Grau for instilling this hatred after a long day's
> Jyhad in Charlotte. (Ooooh, and Atonement. There's
> another one.)
>
> Big favorite? It has to be either RPG Launcher,
> which is a lot of fun for just two pool, or Muddles. There's
> too much entertainment value inherent in imagining the
> act of recruiting this poor schlub and sending him to murder
> other vampires. "No, no, I'm your friend. They're sent by
> the Devil. Have a Twinkie."
>
> -lists are cool at
> the end of the
> century,
>
> Matt
> ____________________
> If money can't buy you love,
> what are you saving it for?
> -Meryn Cadell
> ____________________
Whoops! I meant first turn.
I think he can be pretty nasty with his superior skills in the right areas.
I was just giving an example of why Tomb of Ramses is cool, not Parnassus.
Parnassus can go blow for all I care but I was trying to think of some 7/8
vamps that can bust ass quick.
Mike
Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:84eo7g$vju$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> "Cult Fiction Comics" <bh9...@semovm.semo.edu> writes:
>
> >Favorite library card is : Tomb of Ramses III...I still love this card.> >Vampire Fun Fact: A second turn Parnassus can make some people wet
> >themselves.
>> I'm sorry, I'm missing something here:
>
> 1) Parnassus just isn't that nasty.
>
> and
>
> 2) You can get him out on the second turn without ToRIII.>
> >Hated Library card: Majesty. Suggested New Errata: playing this card four
> >times in a turn could cause controller to draw back a bloody stump.
>> Use some Psyche!s with Mr. Parnassus. Then maybe you can make his
> show off vampire draw back a bloody stump.
>
> Fred
Matthew Heslin wrote in message <01bf5267$921f57e0$0838aec7@wyld>...
>...and as long as we're on the topic of cards you like,
>and cards you hate, what about the one with the green
>backs?
>
> I can speak for myself and say that I have
>a deep and abiding hatred for Telepathic Counter. It's
>a reaction, costs nothing, requires no taps, no combat,
>no nothing -- just ruins your day as a bleeder. I can
>thank Rob Grau for instilling this hatred after a long day's
>Jyhad in Charlotte. (Ooooh, and Atonement. There's
>another one.)
Least favorites...
1) Misdirection. Yes, I left my minions untapped for a reason.
2) Life Boon. Gee, what's that? Oh, the game dynamic just shifted radically
because of one card?
3) Telepathic Counter. No cost...no tap...no combat. Just sheer frustration.
I'll save my favorites for another post. Maybe.
Mattrim.
mattrim...@home.com
In article <01bf5267$921f57e0$0838aec7@wyld>,
"Matthew Heslin" <hes...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> ...and as long as we're on the topic of cards you like,
> and cards you hate, what about the one with the green
> backs?
Favorite - Blood Doll (Sabbat picture)
Hated - Sudden Reversal
Despised - Regaining the Upper Hand / Other true wallpaper
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matthew Heslin wrote in message <01bf5267$921f57e0$0838aec7@wyld>...
>...and as long as we're on the topic of cards you like,
>and cards you hate, what about the one with the green
>backs?
>
Most favorite: Obedience. "I block... You will OBEY!!! (Esp. Sabbat
artwork, mmmm.)
Least Favorite: Peace of Khetamon. (Another along the wallpaper line. The
only use I've found is in a reverse crypt depletion deck. Immortal Grapple,
punch to torpor, Peace of Khetamon, Memories Fading Glimpse, Young Sun's
Special Ability... o:-) but it works better with Banishment :-/
Regards,
R. David Zopf
Atom Weaver
V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC
Sorrow wrote in message ...
>> Favorite - Blood Doll (Sabbat picture)>
>My favorite pictures are:
>
>Library - Blood Agony
>Crypt - Aurora van Brande
>
Along these lines, I have to say I never even considered putting Ascendance
into a deck until Sabbat was released... The things that manipulate
deckbuilding strategies <wolf grin>
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sorry guys, just could not let this pass....
>
> I'm sorry, I'm missing something here:
Yep.
> 1) Parnassus just isn't that nasty.
>
You ARE kidding right? Parnassus isn't that nasty? What can this vampire NOT
do?
Combat: He can take down anyone in combat with CEL and QUI (except when a
DotB or weather controls are played - grrr). I know this for a fact cause I
have been using him in almost every deck I play for the past eight months.
Just ask anyone in my group how much of a bad ass he is.
Intercept: Ummm.. Had Parnassus blocking with as much as +4 intercept before
on a few occasions. Gotta get into combat somehow. Nothing wrong here.
Bleed: Since he has access to basic tha then he can use an Infernal
Familiar. Now Parnassus can bleed for 5 per turn. I've done this many times.
Gotta block him sooner or later.
And while we are on the subject of Parnassus/Infernal Familiar: He can now
deflect, untap, have first round aggravated hand damage, prevent damage,
freak drive and even steal vampires that are in torpor. Nothing wrong here.
He can even pass votes by using Awe/Bewitching Oration and Voter
Captivation. With the backing of Alamut, Parnassus only becomes a stronger
voter.
All this from a 7 capacity Assamite.
So far I simply can not see why you would say "Parnassus just isn't that
nasty".
Maybe you have never seen anyone play Parnassus correctly. :)
Todd Banister
Prince of Atlanta
Scribe of the Assamites
On 30 Dec 1999 04:48:48 GMT, fre...@netcom.com (Frederick Scott)
wrote:
>"Cult Fiction Comics" <bh9...@semovm.semo.edu> writes:
>>>Favorite library card is : Tomb of Ramses III...I still love this card.
>>Vampire Fun Fact: A second turn Parnassus can make some people wet
>>themselves.>>I'm sorry, I'm missing something here:
>>1) Parnassus just isn't that nasty.
Parnassus is a bad mofo. With +1 hand damage and superior QUI and
CEL, you're stuck between a rock and a rock - at long range, you are
GOING to eat aggravated first round damage, probably Blood Sweat/Blood
Sweat/Taste of Death/Taste of Vitae. At short range, he has +1 hand
damage and superior CEL, so you're taking 6 if he has a Blur in hand.
Ow.
-- Derek
Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music.
It only stopped them hearing the distractions.
Oooooh........most fav?
By Art - Antediluvian Awakening........I enjoy Ron Spencers art alot.
By Concept - Disarm.........Off with the head?? Naaaahhh, off with the
arms :)
By Annoyance factor - Pentex Subversion
By Effect - Island of Yiaros (I typically play Ventrue and like to
discourage my Brujah/Gangrel friend from Bums Rushing 'too much')
Incidentally if anybody has any Islands to trade email me with a wants
list.
Most Annoying.........
Any card that steals Equipment!!!
Cheers,
Andrew
"Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> writes:
>Sorry guys, just could not let this pass....
>>>>> I'm sorry, I'm missing something here:>>Yep.>>> 1) Parnassus just isn't that nasty.
>>>>You ARE kidding right? Parnassus isn't that nasty? What can this vampire NOT
>do?
>
>Combat: He can take down anyone in combat with CEL and QUI (except when a
>DotB or weather controls are played - grrr). I know this for a fact cause I
>have been using him in almost every deck I play for the past eight months.
>Just ask anyone in my group how much of a bad ass he is.
>
>Intercept: Ummm.. Had Parnassus blocking with as much as +4 intercept before
>on a few occasions. Gotta get into combat somehow. Nothing wrong here.
>
>Bleed: Since he has access to basic tha then he can use an Infernal
>Familiar. Now Parnassus can bleed for 5 per turn. I've done this many times.
>Gotta block him sooner or later.
>
>And while we are on the subject of Parnassus/Infernal Familiar: He can now
>deflect, untap, have first round aggravated hand damage, prevent damage,
>freak drive and even steal vampires that are in torpor. Nothing wrong here.
>
>He can even pass votes by using Awe/Bewitching Oration and Voter
>Captivation. With the backing of Alamut, Parnassus only becomes a stronger
>voter.
Well, gosh! You know with a Clan Impersonation and a Ventrue Headquarters,
I'd think he'd be an even stronger voter! With two Protean Discipline cards,
he could start lobbing Body Flares around!!! I mean, gees, what can this
monster *NOT* do!?!
Put the card on a construction paper band and he makes the jewel of a damn
fine (if silly-looking) play tiara!
>All this from a 7 capacity Assamite.
Imagine.
>So far I simply can not see why you would say "Parnassus just isn't that
>nasty".
Well, I say it because he costs 7 pool to get out and for 7 pool, you
can get out a lot of impressive vampires. Paranassus isn't chopped liver,
I agree. But for 7 pool, he's not *THAT* nasty as you all are raving about.
(And yes, I do play him in my Assamite deck.)
Fred
Todd Bannister done said:
> So far I simply can not see why you would say "Parnassus just isn't that
> nasty".> Maybe you have never seen anyone play Parnassus correctly.
Maybe we should all be a little thankful for this.
-Matt
Sorry, couldn't pass either..
When looking for a bad ass with up to 7 pool to spend give me any of the following to not only be a better vampire but one that could also kick Parnassus' ass too:
- Jimmy Dunn & Dre (hell Jimmy Dunn alone for that matter)
- Zack North
- Badger
- Anvil
- The 7 cap gangrel primogen (Gitane or something)
- The 5 cap anti-nos
- and more..
Don't get me wrong, he's a must for an Assamite deck but he and unfortunately his clan are just not all that. A shame too..
Todd Banister wrote:
Sorry guys, just could not let this pass....
>
> I'm sorry, I'm missing something here:
Yep.
> 1) Parnassus just isn't that nasty.
>
You ARE kidding right? Parnassus isn't that nasty? What can this vampire NOT
do?
Combat: He can take down anyone in combat with CEL and QUI (except when a
DotB or weather controls are played - grrr). I know this for a fact cause I
have been using him in almost every deck I play for the past eight months.
Just ask anyone in my group how much of a bad ass he is.
Intercept: Ummm.. Had Parnassus blocking with as much as +4 intercept before
on a few occasions. Gotta get into combat somehow. Nothing wrong here.
Bleed: Since he has access to basic tha then he can use an Infernal
Familiar. Now Parnassus can bleed for 5 per turn. I've done this many times.
Gotta block him sooner or later.
And while we are on the subject of Parnassus/Infernal Familiar: He can now
deflect, untap, have first round aggravated hand damage, prevent damage,
freak drive and even steal vampires that are in torpor. Nothing wrong here.
He can even pass votes by using Awe/Bewitching Oration and Voter
Captivation. With the backing of Alamut, Parnassus only becomes a stronger
voter.
All this from a 7 capacity Assamite.
So far I simply can not see why you would say "Parnassus just isn't that
nasty".
Maybe you have never seen anyone play Parnassus correctly. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Carrion crows, hate it! hate it! You can't dodge them pesky little
birds right? Very annoying.
Favorite? Toreador Grand Ball, my clan's favorite party.
Jeff
Prince of Cleveland
>When looking for a bad ass with up to 7 pool to spend give me any of the following to not only be a >better vampire but one that could also kick Parnassus' ass too:
I disagree that each of the vampires that you listed can kick Parnassus' ass. Lets take a look. :)
Most of the vampires (Jimmy Dunn, Dre, Anvil, Olivia and such) that are in your list rely on massive potence strikes to deal damage. If Parnassus uses multiple diseases at the beginning of combat the opposing minion's hand damage will be reduced to say -4 to -8 for the duration of combat. Pretty tough to hurt him while he blurs back with his hand damage (and second round it becomes aggravated with Blood Agony).
Zack, Badger, and Gitane have access to protean for aggravated damage but Parnassus can once again counter with a disease(s) to take away (claws of the dead, wolf claws and such) the hand strikes and he can use acrobatics to dodge the Body of Sun or Body Flare while still striking back.
The Nosferatu vampires have a very difficult time against Parnassus due to generally not having enough manuevers to stop the long range assaults and no way to counter the multiple strikes and to deal with the aggravated damage.
The Tremere also have a difficult time against the Assamites as they can not deal with the multiple first round strikes and can not soak aggravated damage.
Several of the vampires that you listed rely on fortitude to prevent damage. Parnassus can play Blood Sweats and Theft of Vitaes at long range to get around this.
One thing that can not be stopped in combat is someone playing a DotB deck (or Weather Control) where they drop multiple DotB and the S:CE. As far as I know no one has a way to get around this. Another is when someone plays a Thoughts Betrayed to take away your strikes. Not much you can do here either.
In my original post I did not claim that Parnassus was the greatest vampire in combat. Anyone can be stopped with the right cards (but Parnassus has counters to most of the more common combat strategies). What I did say was that I did not understand why Fredrick stated that Parnassus is not all that nasty when indead he is. This is only my opinion and to each his own.
[ quoted text not captured ]
True, it does all depend on the cards in your hand. You may be fortunate enough to have 3-4 disease cards in hand or enough dodges/maneuevers to fend off damage. Then again, I may save my cards until psyche is played and so on. It can go back and forth with different 'cards in hand' scenarios but I have found from my experience that it is usually the Assamite who gets the short end of the stick when it comes up against most of the other common combat decks.
If you have success with Parnassus and can manage to help the Assamites win their share of games then my hat is off to you.
Alex
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:06:46 GMT, Alex Harmon <alexh...@home.com>
wrote:
>True, it does all depend on the cards in your hand. You may be fortunate
>enough to have 3-4 disease cards in hand or enough dodges/maneuevers to
>fend off damage. Then again, I may save my cards until psyche is played
>and so on. It can go back and forth with different 'cards in hand'
>scenarios but I have found from my experience that it is usually the
>Assamite who gets the short end of the stick when it comes up against
>most of the other common combat decks.
Hm. Gun decks - get hit for agg on the first strike. Not likely to
be carrying enough maneuvers to hold close range. The Assamite can
always Dodge and Blur, but most gun decks Blur as well, so that's not
as good an idea.
Potence "big fists" combat - has no hope of outmaneuvering the
Assamites, unless you are the Brujah. Even then, probably not.
Potence frisbee combat - does 3 damage and takes some agg on the first
strike. Somewhat effective, but expensive on vampires.
Gangrel Claw decks that use DotB - Dodge, then Blur, and now it's a
question of how much prevent the Gangrel have packed, because you have
at LEAST +1 hand damage. If they aren't using DotB, they get
outmaneuvered and Blood Sweated. Body Flare is sort of expensive to
keep using, and not really seen a lot.
I really don't see this being the short end of the stick, myself. =)
>If you have success with Parnassus and can manage to help the Assamites
>win their share of games then my hat is off to you.
Winning is the trick... But in combat, the Assamites really are the
trump card. It's just managing to get them to OUST someone, instead
of just kill things.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Derek S. Ray wrote:
<snip - interesting comparison of Assamites to other combat clans>
> I really don't see this being the short end of the stick, myself. =)
>
Indeed. They seem to do *well* against other combat decks, since as you
show, they can have superior skills in many situations. They would do
'interestingly' versus Immortal Grapple, but the superior maneuverability
would mean they could go to long range and spit with aggravated damage.
My main gripe with them has tended to be their inability to do things that
the other combat clans can do much better - cope versus combat defence.
They do have a good ability to annoy Damage Prevention people, but against
dodge they fall down to the Potence crowd, who throw down Immortal
Grapple, the Gangrel, who throw Scorpion Sting, and the Tremere who
through Thoughts Betrayed. Similarly, versus Strike: Combat Ends, I find
Psyche to be a *much* weaker counterpart to the previous cards, and the
Gangrel's Dog Pack (which is rubbish, but still). There are a couple of
neat cards for the Assamites which work oddly with Psyche - I want to play
Disease to prevent you from hurting me. However, if I *do* play Disease,
you throw down Strike: Combat Ends, so I have wasted them *and* have to
play Psyche. If I don't play the Disease, you may not throw down Strike:
Combat Ends (seeing the ability to inflict a little damage on me, since
Sideslip - a highly useful but much underplayed card, IMHO - is not common
in most groups) and so I don't need to play the Psyche. Highly annoying.
> >If you have success with Parnassus and can manage to help the Assamites
> >win their share of games then my hat is off to you.
>> Winning is the trick... But in combat, the Assamites really are the
> trump card. It's just managing to get them to OUST someone, instead
> of just kill things.
True, true. However, a few copies of Swallowed by the Night might help -
the option to maneuver and get stealth on your bleeds - with a couple of
spying Missions too. Just a few to add that extra oomph to your bleeds,
that the Brujah can't muster so easily - Alacrity is very expensive, and
weenie Brujah can't exploit Carthage Remembered.
--
James Coupe
"Derek S. Ray" wrote:
Hm. Gun decks - get hit for agg on the first strike. Not likely to
be carrying enough maneuvers to hold close range. The Assamite can
always Dodge and Blur, but most gun decks Blur as well, so that's not
as good an idea.
I tend to discount gun decks altogether. In the case of them going vs an Assamite deck, well, this is a match up the Assamite would relish since gun decks are designed for maneuver/blur.
Potence "big fists" combat - has no hope of outmaneuvering the
Assamites, unless you are the Brujah. Even then, probably not.
Brujah potence - Brujah can maneuver toe to toe with Assamites. Most Brujah decks may not be designed to use as many maneuvers however. Here it depends on deck variation. Todd Banister, when using Parnassus as an example, implied that he could play 2-4 disease, render big potence damage ineffective and thus rely less on long range to defeat Brujah. You seem to emphasize the long range angle. In either case I feel a Brujah deck could be constructed to defeat any Assamite deck since Brujah can adapt to either style (close or long range) where as Assamites basically are long rage combatants.
Potence frisbee combat - does 3 damage and takes some agg on the first
strike. Somewhat effective, but expensive on vampires.
This plays like a gun deck and therefore doesn't match up well vs. the Assamite style. I can't imagine anyone seriously expecting to win playing this kind of deck (for a tournament let's say) though. style. I don't think it's fair to say that this deck is a common combat deck either.
Gangrel Claw decks that use DotB - Dodge, then Blur, and now it's a
question of how much prevent the Gangrel have packed, because you have
at LEAST +1 hand damage. If they aren't using DotB, they get
outmaneuvered and Blood Sweated. Body Flare is sort of expensive to
keep using, and not really seen a lot.
A pure claw deck is not effectively using Gangrels. There are many card combos (simple ones) that dismantle Assamites. Dotb, scorpion sting, skin of steel for example. To be even deadlier throw in any of these: carrion crows, an aggro. damage claw, dawn operation. Remember, these are just 'plain jane' combos that a Gangrel deck could pull off with regularity. Gangrels just laugh at Assamites imo.
Nosferatu are right behind Gangrel (simply for lack of fortitude). Dotb, immortal grapple, pound for X damage, repeat. Throw in carrion crows, torn signpost, fists of death, scorpion sting for spice. How difficult is that?
I really don't see this being the short end of the stick, myself. =)
Do you see it now?
Again, it usually never plays out quite this simple. Maybe your maneuver intensive deck is jammed and my Jimmy Dunn gets his way with you. Maybe I don't have the dotb I packed 12 of. It could go on and on but like I said before, in most cases I just haven't seen the Assamite deck defeat other combat decks too often. I got so fed up myself that I ended up resorting to a cel/tha deck using a few of the Assamites as a way to keep their cards in play.
Just my $0.02
On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 22:24:35 GMT, Alex Harmon <alexh...@home.com>
wrote:
>> Potence "big fists" combat - has no hope of outmaneuvering the>> Assamites, unless you are the Brujah. Even then, probably not.>
>Brujah potence - Brujah can maneuver toe to toe with Assamites. Most Brujah
>decks may not be designed to use as many maneuvers however. Here it depends
>on deck variation. Todd Banister, when using Parnassus as an example, implied
>that he could play 2-4 disease, render big potence damage ineffective and
>thus rely less on long range to defeat Brujah. You seem to emphasize the long
>range angle. In either case I feel a Brujah deck could be constructed to
>defeat any Assamite deck since Brujah can adapt to either style (close or
>long range) where as Assamites basically are long rage combatants.
Certainly, you can CONSTRUCT a Brujah deck to defeat an Assamite deck
- just include enough maneuvers to catch them, and then enough POT
cards to keep your hand damage high, and then enough Blurs to actually
hurt him, and hopefully enough Tastes not to end up with your vampire
empty after tangling with him. If you include enough maneuvers to
catch the Assamites, though, you hand-jam when you're not fighting the
Assamites. It's a nasty little catch-22. I emphasize the long range
angle because, well, first round agg is great and being at long range
where you can't get poked in the eye is always nice, too. =)
>> Potence frisbee combat - does 3 damage and takes some agg on the first
>> strike. Somewhat effective, but expensive on vampires.>
>This plays like a gun deck and therefore doesn't match up well vs. the
>Assamite style. I can't imagine anyone seriously expecting to win playing
>this kind of deck (for a tournament let's say) though. style. I don't think
>it's fair to say that this deck is a common combat deck either.
Hm. David Tatu had an increased strength/thrown junk deck that made
it to the finals of a tournament and gained a VP - which was then Life
Booned away from him by his grandprey. d'oh! I've got one that
doesn't do badly if the Minion Taps come out early enough. I think
it's perfectly fair to call it common - you may just not have seen it.
=)
>> Gangrel Claw decks that use DotB - Dodge, then Blur, and now it's a
>> question of how much prevent the Gangrel have packed, because you have
>> at LEAST +1 hand damage. If they aren't using DotB, they get
>> outmaneuvered and Blood Sweated. Body Flare is sort of expensive to
>> keep using, and not really seen a lot.
>>>
>A pure claw deck is not effectively using Gangrels. There are many card
>combos (simple ones) that dismantle Assamites. Dotb, scorpion sting, skin of
>steel for example. To be even deadlier throw in any of these: carrion crows,
>an aggro. damage claw, dawn operation. Remember, these are just 'plain jane'
>combos that a Gangrel deck could pull off with regularity. Gangrels just
>laugh at Assamites imo.
Dawn Op requires a block, and the Gangrel have a little trouble with
actions you MUST block. Scorpion Sting is good, but for some reason
we don't see it much 'round here - probably because its utility
against S:CE is just not there, and it's an extra card. (Note that
one Disease stops Scorpion Sting, depending on how many Diseases
you've stuffed in your deck - 0 aggravated undodgeable hand damage is
not a worry.) Carrion Crows falls over to S:CE as well - I consider
Gangrel combat even less common than potence 'thrown stuff' combat,
just because they have NO options against S:CE. (Dog Pack is a joke.)
The real problem Assamites have is DotB combined with prevent. One
card cancelling multiple maneuvers, and the prevent that suddenly
works again at close range.
>Nosferatu are right behind Gangrel (simply for lack of fortitude). Dotb,
>immortal grapple, pound for X damage, repeat. Throw in carrion crows, torn
>signpost, fists of death, scorpion sting for spice. How difficult is that?
Without getting your Nossie killed? Very. one Disease removes enough
of the hand damage so you don't get him in the first smack. The Blur
that will follow with the +1 hand damage will do 6 points total. The
Taste of Vitae that will follow gains back all the blood he lost, and
NOW Carrion Crows does its damage - after it doesn't matter anymore.
However, if you want something amusing, use the Nosferatu Law Firm -
DotB, Grapple, Torn Signpost, Pushing the Limit, Skin of Steel. Blood
gain via Minion Tap/5th Tradition (3 out of the 4 can do it), and now
your only problem is finding some cards to let them oust their prey.
Vote cards can work, although you may need to Rush some other titled
vamps if they don't feel like voting your way. I find the "general
threat" works, usually: go 'round the table, beginning with your
grandprey, and ask "If I call a KRC, is that vampire voting my way?",
and if you don't get enough 'yes' votes, Rush one of the 'no's. Next
action, ask the same question - repeat until you have vote lock either
by fear or force. =)
>> I really don't see this being the short end of the stick, myself. =)>
>Do you see it now?
Nope. I think you've been seeing shakily-built Assamite decks. =)
>Again, it usually never plays out quite this simple. Maybe your maneuver
>intensive deck is jammed and my Jimmy Dunn gets his way with you. Maybe I
>don't have the dotb I packed 12 of. It could go on and on but like I said
Of course. I prefer to assume that both decks are flowing smoothly,
when comparing - obviously if you come up short on a DotB you're going
to be on the pointy end of the stick, or if one of the fifteen Flashes
isn't handy, or or or... you get the idea.
>before, in most cases I just haven't seen the Assamite deck defeat other
>combat decks too often. I got so fed up myself that I ended up resorting to a
>cel/tha deck using a few of the Assamites as a way to keep their cards in
>play.
Just need to get to long range, and hang onto Diseases as your "save
your butt if you get caught" card. If you're not getting caught, you
can pass out -2 hand damage at long range too, just to move the card.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Derek S. Ray" wrote:
> empty after tangling with him. If you include enough maneuvers to
> catch the Assamites, though, you hand-jam when you're not fighting the
> Assamites. It's a nasty little catch-22. I emphasize the long range
>
I can't speak for fighting a full table, just the Assamite deck. If we do that
then the Malk deck bleeds me out or the vote decks banish/krc me to death while
I'm busy trying to win a combat with the Assamites. I've been assuming a 1on1
scenario.
> Hm. David Tatu had an increased strength/thrown junk deck that made
> it to the finals of a tournament and gained a VP - which was then Life
> Booned away from him by his grandprey. d'oh! I've got one that
> doesn't do badly if the Minion Taps come out early enough. I think
> it's perfectly fair to call it common - you may just not have seen it.
Probably so. I've just never really been able to see how one of those could do it.
Kudos to David for getting to the final of that tournament.
> Dawn Op requires a block, and the Gangrel have a little trouble with
> actions you MUST block.
Eventually you aren't going to like the minion the Gangrel chooses to bum rush
imo..
> Scorpion Sting is good, but for some reasonwe don't see it much 'round here -
> probably because its utilityagainst S:CE is just not there, and it's an extra
> card.
Could be the gaming circle you are in. I agree, S:CE really hoses Gangrel
regardless of Dog Pack. However, I again am not bringing other decks into the mix.
Just the Assamites. If you are saying that the Assamites are packing S:CE then I
doubt you would put more than 2-3 preternatural evasions in your deck (the
Assamites deck was meant to be the aggressive deck right?).
> (Note thatone Disease stops Scorpion Sting, depending on how many Diseases
Disease costs 1 blood doesn't it? I can't remember since it's been so long
> you've stuffed in your deck - 0 aggravated undodgeable hand damage is
> not a worry.) Carrion Crows falls over to S:CE as well - I consider
> Gangrel combat even less common than potence 'thrown stuff' combat,
> just because they have NO options against S:CE. (Dog Pack is a joke.)
Playing disease as your "save me from death" card doesn't say much about the
Assamite ever hurting the Gangrel in combat but merely that they can survive for a
bit. Also, spending a blood per disease isn't too healthy as well. (It's been a
while since I last played so I remember it as costing 1...moot point if it is free
and my apologies for a poor memory)
> The real problem Assamites have is DotB combined with prevent. One
> card cancelling multiple maneuvers, and the prevent that suddenly
> works again at close range.
Right, I don't see how an Assamite could ever really hurt a Gangrel if the deck
packs fortitude prevention and dotbs. You mention a scenario where the Assamite
finds a way to live but never one where they actually do damage (assuming the
dotbs are flowing well).
> Without getting your Nossie killed? Very. one Disease removes enough
> of the hand damage so you don't get him in the first smack. The Blur
> that will follow with the +1 hand damage will do 6 points total. The
> Taste of Vitae that will follow gains back all the blood he lost, and
> NOW Carrion Crows does its damage - after it doesn't matter anymore.
It isn't too difficult to pump the potence though. Torn signpost, fists of death
and then either pushing the limit or undead strength can put the strike at up to
8.
> However, if you want something amusing, use the Nosferatu Law Firm -
> DotB, Grapple, Torn Signpost, Pushing the Limit, Skin of Steel. Blood
> gain via Minion Tap/5th Tradition (3 out of the 4 can do it), and now
> your only problem is finding some cards to let them oust their prey.
> Vote cards can work, although you may need to Rush some other titled
> vamps if they don't feel like voting your way. I find the "general
> threat" works, usually: go 'round the table, beginning with your
> grandprey, and ask "If I call a KRC, is that vampire voting my way?",
> and if you don't get enough 'yes' votes, Rush one of the 'no's. Next
> action, ask the same question - repeat until you have vote lock either
> by fear or force. =)
>
I've tried a deck like that but never had too much success because I would either
get jammed with action/vote cards when I was in combat and vice versa. I'd love to
see it work well since I feel Nos are usually outgunned.
> Nope. I think you've been seeing shakily-built Assamite decks. =)
That could be also. I'd love to see one work as well as you say they can. Hmm, fun
being active with this NG again ;)
Alex
On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 03:52:27 GMT, Alex Harmon <alexh...@home.com>
wrote:
>"Derek S. Ray" wrote:>>> empty after tangling with him. If you include enough maneuvers to
>> catch the Assamites, though, you hand-jam when you're not fighting the
>> Assamites. It's a nasty little catch-22. I emphasize the long range>
>I can't speak for fighting a full table, just the Assamite deck. If we do that
>then the Malk deck bleeds me out or the vote decks banish/krc me to death while
>I'm busy trying to win a combat with the Assamites. I've been assuming a 1on1
>scenario.
But this is not a realistic scenario, since Jyhad is a four or
five-player game. =) This is probably the essential point of
difference we're seeing - I assume that all decks are built to be
functional and have a chance of winning a five-player game, no matter
WHAT shows up at the table. 1 on 1, I can make any counter to any
deck, but that doesn't mean much. The Assamites have an excellent
card-slots-to-combat-effectiveness ratio - but their discipline
selection makes it tough for them to OUST people, as opposed to just
kill them.
>> Hm. David Tatu had an increased strength/thrown junk deck that made
>> it to the finals of a tournament and gained a VP - which was then Life
>> Booned away from him by his grandprey. d'oh! I've got one that
>> doesn't do badly if the Minion Taps come out early enough. I think
>> it's perfectly fair to call it common - you may just not have seen it.>
>Probably so. I've just never really been able to see how one of those could do it.
>Kudos to David for getting to the final of that tournament.
The trick with bruise and bleed usually involves remembering that it's
"bruise", not "kill". In his case, he just used very small vamps,
skill cards, blood dolls, and a few Computer Hackings - and didn't
waste his time going backwards more than absolutely necessary.
>> Dawn Op requires a block, and the Gangrel have a little trouble with
>> actions you MUST block.>
>Eventually you aren't going to like the minion the Gangrel chooses to bum rush
>imo..
Doubt it. If you rush Kanya Akhtar or Tansu Bekir, I'll *let* you.
Go ahead, kill my little guys - Parnassus, Melek, and Abd Al-Rashid
are the ones I want to use as offense anyway. =) The only other
reason to block the Rush is to remove the maneuver, which is pointless
in the face of DotB anyway. =)
>> Scorpion Sting is good, but for some reasonwe don't see it much 'round here -
>> probably because its utilityagainst S:CE is just not there, and it's an extra
>> card.>
>Could be the gaming circle you are in. I agree, S:CE really hoses Gangrel
>regardless of Dog Pack. However, I again am not bringing other decks into the mix.
>Just the Assamites. If you are saying that the Assamites are packing S:CE then I
But that's no good - see above. Also why I don't consider Gangrel
combat that common - it's so useless against other stuff that it
doesn't matter if it can beat up the Potence deck. Everything else
just prevents or S:CE's it.
>doubt you would put more than 2-3 preternatural evasions in your deck (the
>Assamites deck was meant to be the aggressive deck right?).
Infernal Familiar permits anyone to use a convenient Majesty - which
also permits one to use Legal Manipulations ;) I know one of Todd's
decks actually packs a few (2-4) Majesties just for unexpected
circumstances. Besides, Melek has inferior Presence. =)
>> (Note thatone Disease stops Scorpion Sting, depending on how many Diseases>
>Disease costs 1 blood doesn't it? I can't remember since it's been so long
I believe so, but 1 blood is cheap compared to a vampire in torpor.
And Skin of Steel costs 1 blood too, so I consider that an even trade.
If you run out of Skin of Steel, your vamp goes to torpor empty and I
get to refill. If I run out of Disease, my vamp visits torpor, who
then rescues himself next time 'round. =) If you run out of DotB,
your vamp burns.
>> you've stuffed in your deck - 0 aggravated undodgeable hand damage is
>> not a worry.) Carrion Crows falls over to S:CE as well - I consider
>> Gangrel combat even less common than potence 'thrown stuff' combat,
>> just because they have NO options against S:CE. (Dog Pack is a joke.)>
>Playing disease as your "save me from death" card doesn't say much about the
>Assamite ever hurting the Gangrel in combat but merely that they can survive for a
>bit. Also, spending a blood per disease isn't too healthy as well. (It's been a
>while since I last played so I remember it as costing 1...moot point if it is free
>and my apologies for a poor memory)
Disease lasts the whole combat - Skin of Steel only lasts for one
round. All those Flashes that I can't use because of DotB are also
presses. You tell me who wins? =)
>> The real problem Assamites have is DotB combined with prevent. One
>> card cancelling multiple maneuvers, and the prevent that suddenly
>> works again at close range.>
>Right, I don't see how an Assamite could ever really hurt a Gangrel if the deck
>packs fortitude prevention and dotbs. You mention a scenario where the Assamite
>finds a way to live but never one where they actually do damage (assuming the
>dotbs are flowing well).
See above. Do you have as many Skins of Steel as I have Flashes? =)
Not to mention Psyche provides a press at inferior, and a good
Assamite deck should have at least 8 of those to deal with S:CE.
>> Without getting your Nossie killed? Very. one Disease removes enough
>> of the hand damage so you don't get him in the first smack. The Blur
>> that will follow with the +1 hand damage will do 6 points total. The
>> Taste of Vitae that will follow gains back all the blood he lost, and
>> NOW Carrion Crows does its damage - after it doesn't matter anymore.>
>It isn't too difficult to pump the potence though. Torn signpost, fists of death
>and then either pushing the limit or undead strength can put the strike at up to
>8.
Problem: the disciplines you want are only found on one 5-cap, one
6-cap, and then several 7-caps. Superior ANI to match the superior
POT is even more difficult to come by (Carrion Crows is a wasted card
slot at 1 point per round.) And then finding something to do with all
those vampires in order to oust someone is even MORE difficult.
>> However, if you want something amusing, use the Nosferatu Law Firm -
>> DotB, Grapple, Torn Signpost, Pushing the Limit, Skin of Steel. Blood
>> gain via Minion Tap/5th Tradition (3 out of the 4 can do it), and now
>> your only problem is finding some cards to let them oust their prey.
>> Vote cards can work, although you may need to Rush some other titled
>> vamps if they don't feel like voting your way. I find the "general
>> threat" works, usually: go 'round the table, beginning with your
>> grandprey, and ask "If I call a KRC, is that vampire voting my way?",
>> and if you don't get enough 'yes' votes, Rush one of the 'no's. Next
>> action, ask the same question - repeat until you have vote lock either
>> by fear or force. =)>
>I've tried a deck like that but never had too much success because I would either
>get jammed with action/vote cards when I was in combat and vice versa. I'd love to
>see it work well since I feel Nos are usually outgunned.
You sort of have to be careful not to include too many 5th's or KRC's
- the Minion Taps are more important than the 5ths since Taste works
well with this sort of deck. And you sometimes want to randomly call
votes to encourage blockers, although not many people will want to
block you after they see what happens to the first person.
>> Nope. I think you've been seeing shakily-built Assamite decks. =)>
>That could be also. I'd love to see one work as well as you say they can. Hmm, fun
>being active with this NG again ;)
>
>Alex
-- Derek
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Derek S. Ray" wrote:
>I can't speak for fighting a full table, just the Assamite deck. If we do that
But this is not a realistic scenario, since Jyhad is a four or
five-player game. =) This is probably the essential point of
difference we're seeing - I assume that all decks are built to be
functional and have a chance of winning a five-player game, no matter
WHAT shows up at the table. 1 on 1, I can make any counter to any
deck, but that doesn't mean much. The Assamites have an excellent
card-slots-to-combat-effectiveness ratio - but their discipline
selection makes it tough for them to OUST people, as opposed to just
kill them.
Yes, I agree that when creating a deck it should be able to work in a 4+ player environment. However, this back and forth exchange of opinion started out as a 'Parnassus/Assamite vs other combat decks' topic. I apologize if the '1on1' term I used threw you off. I'll stick with the Assamite vs. XYZ combat deck exchange.
>Eventually you aren't going to like the minion the Gangrel chooses to bum rush
>imo..
Doubt it. If you rush Kanya Akhtar or Tansu Bekir, I'll *let* you.
Go ahead, kill my little guys - Parnassus, Melek, and Abd Al-Rashid
are the ones I want to use as offense anyway. =) The only other
reason to block the Rush is to remove the maneuver, which is pointless
in the face of DotB anyway. =)
I don't know how long you could last though with just 1 or 2 'big' vampires in play when you are a combat deck. I've always found that the little guys played an important role in mopping up or doing some of the grunt work which I wouldn't want to risk with a bigger vamp.
>regardless of Dog Pack. However, I again am not bringing other decks into the mix.
>Just the Assamites. If you are saying that the Assamites are packing S:CE then I
But that's no good - see above. Also why I don't consider Gangrel
combat that common - it's so useless against other stuff that it
doesn't matter if it can beat up the Potence deck. Everything else
just prevents or S:CE's it.
See above? Again, this wasn't about decks in a full game environment but rather a combat discussion between Assamites and other combat decks. Also, you havent shown how an Assamite can defeat a true Gangrel combat deck only that they can 'live' through a combat or two. Disease is fine, but you are doing damage to yourself and the dotb adds another. Two or three of those and your vamp is on the verge of being torporized.
>doubt you would put more than 2-3 preternatural evasions in your deck (the
>Assamites deck was meant to be the aggressive deck right?).
Infernal Familiar permits anyone to use a convenient Majesty - which
also permits one to use Legal Manipulations ;) I know one of Todd's
decks actually packs a few (2-4) Majesties just for unexpected
circumstances. Besides, Melek has inferior Presence. =)
Infernal Familiar? Majesty? I thought you were playing an Assamite combat deck? Sure, a couple S:CE might be in there as a safety valve but I haven't seen a combat deck ever pack an Infernal Familiar solely to be able to play an out of clan discipline card - majesty. If that's how you play it or Todd then that's all good. Different decks are what make jyhad so fun. However, this dilutes a combat deck imo and doesn't do much vs the immortal grapple decks. Also, you are using presence with Assamites - kind of strange to me.
>> (Note thatone Disease stops Scorpion Sting, depending on how many Diseases>
>Disease costs 1 blood doesn't it? I can't remember since it's been so long
I believe so, but 1 blood is cheap compared to a vampire in torpor.
But if disease is the only way you are going to survive then you will put yourself in torpor very quickly.
And Skin of Steel costs 1 blood too, so I consider that an even trade.
If you run out of Skin of Steel, your vamp goes to torpor empty and I
get to refill. If I run out of Disease, my vamp visits torpor, who
then rescues himself next time 'round. =) If you run out of DotB,
your vamp burns.
1) Sure you could stealth your rescue but that's another 2 blood drained and a vamp who is tapped. 2) A vamp wouldn't necessarily be burned since you assume you get to long, play multiple strikes and finish it off with a Taste of Death. Might happen but doubtful. Skin of Marble, Skin of Rock, Skin of Night all have a say in that along with the dotbs. But again, it could happen.
>> you've stuffed in your deck - 0 aggravated undodgeable hand damage is
>> not a worry.) Carrion Crows falls over to S:CE as well - I consider
Maybe other decks using S:CE as their combat defense but surely not an Assamite combat deck.
Disease lasts the whole combat - Skin of Steel only lasts for one
round. All those Flashes that I can't use because of DotB are also
presses. You tell me who wins? =)
You play a Disease, get hit with Carrion Crows and then a Dotb damage for a total of 4 damage (assuming sup. ani.) and at most you've forced me to spend a blood on a Skin of Steel (but other for. cards are available). Not only have you not hurt me, you've run away from combat still taking some damage. (maybe you prevent 1 with Side Slip)
Problem: the disciplines you want are only found on one 5-cap, one
6-cap, and then several 7-caps. Superior ANI to match the superior
POT is even more difficult to come by (Carrion Crows is a wasted card
slot at 1 point per round.) And then finding something to do with all
those vampires in order to oust someone is even MORE difficult.
Looks to me like they match up evenly in terms of vamp costs when compared to the Assamites. You use a 5cap, 7cap, and 8cap+ to use QUI/CEL. Also, one Disease wouldn't be enough and even two would still hurt. Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, Undead strength/Pushing the Limit, Carrion Crows with Dotb can do as much as 10 damage in addition to the blood you lose off Disease. Sure, this combo. is a tad unlikely but it still can pull 5-6 base total damage in addition to the Disease blood loss. Also, Nossies pack Taste of Vitaes too.
I'm content to let this thread be put to rest as it seems we'll just have to agree to disagree. You've brought up some things I wasn't too aware of and I respect what you have said but I just don't agree with it ;)
Alex
On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 21:13:22 GMT, Alex Harmon <alexh...@home.com>
wrote:
>"Derek S. Ray" wrote:>>
>> >I can't speak for fighting a full table, just the Assamite deck. If we do that
>>
>> But this is not a realistic scenario, since Jyhad is a four or
>> five-player game. =) This is probably the essential point of
>> difference we're seeing - I assume that all decks are built to be
>> functional and have a chance of winning a five-player game, no matter
>> WHAT shows up at the table. 1 on 1, I can make any counter to any
>> deck, but that doesn't mean much. The Assamites have an excellent
>> card-slots-to-combat-effectiveness ratio - but their discipline
>> selection makes it tough for them to OUST people, as opposed to just
>> kill them.>
>Yes, I agree that when creating a deck it should be able to work in a 4+ player
>environment. However, this back and forth exchange of opinion started out as a
>'Parnassus/Assamite vs other combat decks' topic. I apologize if the '1on1' term I used
>threw you off. I'll stick with the Assamite vs. XYZ combat deck exchange.
But this is just not a good comparison, is my point. When I compare
ANY decks, I assume it's with a 4+ player environment, and the two
competing decks are in a predator/prey relationship of some sort - a
deck built to win 1 on 1 will just lose when it's not faced with its
counterpart.
>> >Eventually you aren't going to like the minion the Gangrel chooses to bum rush
>> >imo..
>>
>> Doubt it. If you rush Kanya Akhtar or Tansu Bekir, I'll *let* you.
>> Go ahead, kill my little guys - Parnassus, Melek, and Abd Al-Rashid
>> are the ones I want to use as offense anyway. =) The only other
>> reason to block the Rush is to remove the maneuver, which is pointless
>> in the face of DotB anyway. =)>
>I don't know how long you could last though with just 1 or 2 'big' vampires in play
>when you are a combat deck. I've always found that the little guys played an important
>role in mopping up or doing some of the grunt work which I wouldn't want to risk with a
>bigger vamp.
It doesn't work well to just have a couple big guys in play, no. The
Assamites have to do a lot of wakey-intercepty with Sport Bikes and
the like in order to get into combat - this is because they only HAVE
big guys. Kanya with inferior CEL is basically there to bleed for 1
every so often. Tansu with inferior CEL is "Sacrificial Lamb Boy",
but if you crisp his little buns I won't worry too much. Harika
Guljan is neat with superior QUI, but he needs a CEL card before he
does anything impressive. :/
>> >regardless of Dog Pack. However, I again am not bringing other decks into the mix.
>> >Just the Assamites. If you are saying that the Assamites are packing S:CE then I
>>
>> But that's no good - see above. Also why I don't consider Gangrel
>> combat that common - it's so useless against other stuff that it
>> doesn't matter if it can beat up the Potence deck. Everything else
>> just prevents or S:CE's it.>
>See above? Again, this wasn't about decks in a full game environment but rather a
>combat discussion between Assamites and other combat decks. Also, you havent shown how
>an Assamite can defeat a true Gangrel combat deck only that they can 'live' through a
>combat or two. Disease is fine, but you are doing damage to yourself and the dotb adds
>another. Two or three of those and your vamp is on the verge of being torporized.
How many Skin of Steels are you packing again? =) 2 or 3 rounds will
be a real problem. Disease = 1 blood at start. DotB = 1 per round.
That will take 6 rounds to empty Parnassus. Disease lasts ALL combat,
so you will need to have Carrion Crows and assorted other shit out as
WELL as enough prevent to survive, AND a claw card and Scorpion Sting.
I can sit on my Disease and Blur cards. With CC (you mentioned it
below), you reduce him to 1 in 2 rounds (i'm assuming i have ONE
sideslip somewhere) and torporize in 3, but I doubt I'd press if CC
was in play. Unless I felt you were low on SoS, because Taste of
Vitae heals before DotB and CC take effect. =)
>> >doubt you would put more than 2-3 preternatural evasions in your deck (the
>> >Assamites deck was meant to be the aggressive deck right?).
>>
>> Infernal Familiar permits anyone to use a convenient Majesty - which
>> also permits one to use Legal Manipulations ;) I know one of Todd's
>> decks actually packs a few (2-4) Majesties just for unexpected
>> circumstances. Besides, Melek has inferior Presence. =)>
>Infernal Familiar? Majesty? I thought you were playing an Assamite combat deck? Sure, a
Of course. But you have to oust your prey somehow, right?
>couple S:CE might be in there as a safety valve but I haven't seen a combat deck ever
>pack an Infernal Familiar solely to be able to play an out of clan discipline card -
>majesty. If that's how you play it or Todd then that's all good. Different decks are
>what make jyhad so fun. However, this dilutes a combat deck imo and doesn't do much vs
>the immortal grapple decks. Also, you are using presence with Assamites - kind of
>strange to me.
Well... Melek's presence is good for more than Majesty. It also lets
one play, say, Legal Manipulations - which is often just as good as a
Bum's Rush. As does the Infernal Familiar - which also lets you play
a Conditioning with Parnassus. So as long as you've got it, why not
throw two or three S:CE in just in case? You won't always have it
when you need it, no, but you can also save it for a bit or discard it
if it doesn't look useful, and 3 slots won't hurt you much.
>> And Skin of Steel costs 1 blood too, so I consider that an even trade.
>> If you run out of Skin of Steel, your vamp goes to torpor empty and I
>> get to refill. If I run out of Disease, my vamp visits torpor, who
>> then rescues himself next time 'round. =) If you run out of DotB,
>> your vamp burns.>
>1) Sure you could stealth your rescue but that's another 2 blood drained and a vamp who
>is tapped. 2) A vamp wouldn't necessarily be burned since you assume you get to long,
>play multiple strikes and finish it off with a Taste of Death. Might happen but
>doubtful. Skin of Marble, Skin of Rock, Skin of Night all have a say in that along with
>the dotbs. But again, it could happen.
The Gangrel have significant intercept? in a COMBAT deck? Sure,
Cat's Guidance is +1, and a Raven Spy is another +1, but the Assamites
have all sorts of OBF hanging around, and Lost in Crowds/Forgotten
Labyrinth generally do the job.
I assume I get to long, play two Blood Sweats (unpreventable), and
then a Taste of Death. Might happen? WILL happen, in a good Assamite
deck. Flesh of Marble is no good, since it does not stack with other
prevents - you'll always be taking ONE point of damage. If you've
played Flesh of Marble, I just play my Taste of Death first, and you
take 1 agg. Off you go. Odds are you're packing Skins of Steel and
Skin of Night, the best combo for the money - but you will still end
up taking 3 unpreventable, 3 unpreventable, and 2. If you've got 7
blood, that's fine - but I'll be playing Taste of Vitae and reloading
my vamp by the 6 that you WEREN'T able to prevent.
Flesh of Marble/Skin of Night makes little sense for a Gangrel combat
deck - requires superior in both skills, while Skin of Steel instead
means that your guy with pro/FOR is a useful fighter - Ricki, Roman,
Bear Paw, and Chandler all benefit enormously from FOR skill cards,
and reduce your crypt size lots.
>> Disease lasts the whole combat - Skin of Steel only lasts for one
>> round. All those Flashes that I can't use because of DotB are also
>> presses. You tell me who wins? =)>
>You play a Disease, get hit with Carrion Crows and then a Dotb damage for a total of 4
>damage (assuming sup. ani.) and at most you've forced me to spend a blood on a Skin of
>Steel (but other for. cards are available). Not only have you not hurt me, you've run
>away from combat still taking some damage. (maybe you prevent 1 with Side Slip)
see above - i wandered through a brief bit about it.
>> Problem: the disciplines you want are only found on one 5-cap, one
>> 6-cap, and then several 7-caps. Superior ANI to match the superior
>> POT is even more difficult to come by (Carrion Crows is a wasted card
>> slot at 1 point per round.) And then finding something to do with all
>> those vampires in order to oust someone is even MORE difficult.>
>Looks to me like they match up evenly in terms of vamp costs when compared to the
>Assamites. You use a 5cap, 7cap, and 8cap+ to use QUI/CEL. Also, one Disease wouldn't
yes, but you're only getting POT/ani for your trouble, except for
Nigel the Shunned. =) That was my point - the superior ANI is
difficult for Nossies to get to until you get up real high.
>be enough and even two would still hurt. Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, Undead
>strength/Pushing the Limit, Carrion Crows with Dotb can do as much as 10 damage in
>addition to the blood you lose off Disease. Sure, this combo. is a tad unlikely but it
>still can pull 5-6 base total damage in addition to the Disease blood loss. Also,
>Nossies pack Taste of Vitaes too.
Heh. If you whack me for 6 and Taste, and I whack you for 6 and
Taste, we've just spent an awful lot of cards doing absolutely
nothing. =) But I've spent one Disease, one Sideslip, one Blur, and
one Taste. You're up to 7 (i'm assuming an Immortal Grapple and a
Taste as well as what you have above.)
>I'm content to let this thread be put to rest as it seems we'll just have to agree to
>disagree. You've brought up some things I wasn't too aware of and I respect what you
>have said but I just don't agree with it ;)
You need to see it actually go in a *game* environment. =) We put up
with the Assamites for approximately two months around here while Todd
was working up stuff for the newsletters - you see all KINDS of
unlikely crud. We also began lobbing in DotB in self-defense, so he
began figuring out ways around it, and we found that to really stop
them, you have to focus on doing nothing but stopping them, which
means you lose to everything else near you.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <D9426D404F45B5D4.9DFEA06F...@lp.airnew
s.net>, Derek S. Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes
>Without getting your Nossie killed? Very. one Disease removes enough
>of the hand damage so you don't get him in the first smack. The Blur
>that will follow with the +1 hand damage will do 6 points total. The
>Taste of Vitae that will follow gains back all the blood he lost, and
>NOW Carrion Crows does its damage - after it doesn't matter anymore.
Carrion Crows, as far as I can tell, follows the same template as Wolf
Companion et al. As such, the damage done occurs during the *first*
strike resolution step, not the last - since you cannot guarantee that
after the first strike resolution step there will be another, even if
you say "Oh, but I'm going to Blur."
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England)
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.nethttp://www.obeah.demon.co.uk
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Derek S. Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes> >Without getting your Nossie killed? Very. one Disease removes enough
> >of the hand damage so you don't get him in the first smack. The Blur
> >that will follow with the +1 hand damage will do 6 points total. The
> >Taste of Vitae that will follow gains back all the blood he lost, and
> >NOW Carrion Crows does its damage - after it doesn't matter anymore.
>> Carrion Crows, as far as I can tell, follows the same template as Wolf
> Companion et al. As such, the damage done occurs during the *first*
> strike resolution step, not the last - since you cannot guarantee that
> after the first strike resolution step there will be another, even if
> you say "Oh, but I'm going to Blur."
Correct. [LSJ 11-DEC-1997]
--
LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp[ quoted text not captured ]