rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

LSJ: Ally/Disicpline questions - SPOILER WARNING

4 messages from 3 participants · 14 May 2004 – 15 May 2004
original thread on Google Groups

John Flournoy

It's been made clear before that an ally playing a discipline-requiring card 'as a vampire' does not _become_ a vampire for a limited duration (like for the action), only gets treated as a vampire for immediately resolving the play of the card. However, I've got questions as to the applications of the prhase 'card(s) requiring' a Discipline. I'll probably repeat myself below and be long-winded, sorry about that in advance. If you have a Marijava Thugee holding a Changeling Skin Mask (or a Ghouled Ally with a Hand of Conrad, High Top with a Drum of Xipe Totec, or Talaq, or etc etc), when the Thugee plays an Obfuscate minion card, can they play it at a superior level of effect? Those allies have card text saying that they may play a card 'requiring' the basic discipline as a vampire. When they play the card, they are treated as a vampire; a Vampire holding the relevant equipment has the superior discipline. You might argue 'but their card text specifies they can only play the basic discipline' - which isn't _technically_ true, as far as I can tell. Specifically, it limits them to playing 'cards that require the basic (discipline name)'. For instance, Diversion is a card that requires basic Celerity, yet also counts as "a minion card that requires Thaumaturgy" when you go looking for it with a Spirit Summoning Chamber. I'm not suggesting (for instance) that High Top could play Swiftness of the Stag for either Spiritus effect-level (even though it counts as 'a card requiring basic celerity') becuase of the basic rule that you cannot play a card at a discipline level that you don't have - but could High Top with a Drum of Xipe Totec play a Blur at superior? He is 'playing a card that requires basic Celerity' as per his card text, is treated as a Vampire for 'playing a card that requires basic Celerity' by the rule on allies playing discipline cards, and a Vampire playing Blur who has the Drum could play it at the basic or superior... so can High Top with a Drum, or not? And if an ally cannot do this, shouldn't there be some sort of cleaning up of the phrasing for some cards, since 'card requiring a discipline' has a very different meaning when the card is being played as opposed to when you are looking for it in your library or hand? Extrapolation SPOILER questions: If (as has been rumored/spoilered elsewhere) Advanced Ferox's text includes "Minions opposing Ferox in combat cannot play cards that require Necromancy or Thaumaturgy" would that prevent an opponent from playing a Diversion or a Collapse The Arches at _any_ level against him or not? Similarly, can a minion with Blessing of Chaos prevent a Daimonion-use of Psychomachia, because it (sometimes) would count as an action modifier card requiring Presence? I'm assuming, but want to verify, that none of this would be correct. That _playing_ a card immediately reduces it to 'as if it only had the discipline-requirement for the effect being played, for all other card-effects affecting the card' instead of 'as if it only had the discipline-requirement for the effect being played for the purposes of determining if that minion can legally play that card in the first place'. Boy that's icky phrasing. Hope that made sense. -John Flournoy

Halcyan 2

>If you have a Marijava Thugee holding a Changeling Skin Mask (or a >Ghouled Ally with a Hand of Conrad, High Top with a Drum of Xipe >Totec, or Talaq, or etc etc), when the Thugee plays an Obfuscate >minion card, can they play it at a superior level of effect? No. The ally only counts as a vampire in respects to the specific card he's playing. He doesn't count as a vampire for any other effects (global effects, equipment cards in play, etc.). >Those allies have card text saying that they may play a card >'requiring' the basic discipline as a vampire. When they play the >card, they are treated as a vampire; a Vampire holding the relevant >equipment has the superior discipline. > It only affects a single card. It doesn't allow any sort of "daisy-chain" where the effect on one card allows the effect of another to work, etc. In other words, being treated as a vampire for playing a specific card is not a transitive state. >If (as has been rumored/spoilered elsewhere) Advanced Ferox's text >includes "Minions opposing Ferox in combat cannot play cards that >require Necromancy or Thaumaturgy" would that prevent an opponent from >playing a Diversion or a Collapse The Arches at _any_ level against >him or not? Assuming the spoiler is true, then it should only affect the Thaumaturgy version. The Visceratika version of Collapse or the other versions of Diversion are not affected. >Similarly, can a minion with Blessing of Chaos prevent a Daimonion-use >of Psychomachia, because it (sometimes) would count as an action >modifier card requiring Presence? No. I'm drawing a blank right now, but I'm pretty sure the issue was covered fairly thoroughly when Bloodlines first came out. Halcyan 2

LSJ

Halcyan 2 wrote: >>If you have a Marijava Thugee holding a Changeling Skin Mask (or a >>Ghouled Ally with a Hand of Conrad, High Top with a Drum of Xipe >>Totec, or Talaq, or etc etc), when the Thugee plays an Obfuscate >>minion card, can they play it at a superior level of effect? > > No. The ally only counts as a vampire in respects to the specific card he's > playing. He doesn't count as a vampire for any other effects (global effects, > equipment cards in play, etc.). Correct. >>Those allies have card text saying that they may play a card >>'requiring' the basic discipline as a vampire. When they play the >>card, they are treated as a vampire; a Vampire holding the relevant >>equipment has the superior discipline. > > It only affects a single card. It doesn't allow any sort of "daisy-chain" where > the effect on one card allows the effect of another to work, etc. In other > words, being treated as a vampire for playing a specific card is not a > transitive state. That alternative present a chicken-and-egg problem as well - the ally must be playing the card "as a vampire" first, so must be playing the card at a certain level. Whether the ally is then treated as having a higher level of the Discipline is moot to that play - the level of the play has already been chosen. >>If (as has been rumored/spoilered elsewhere) Advanced Ferox's text >>includes "Minions opposing Ferox in combat cannot play cards that >>require Necromancy or Thaumaturgy" would that prevent an opponent from >>playing a Diversion or a Collapse The Arches at _any_ level against >>him or not? > > Assuming the spoiler is true, then it should only affect the Thaumaturgy > version. The Visceratika version of Collapse or the other versions of Diversion > are not affected. Correct. >>Similarly, can a minion with Blessing of Chaos prevent a Daimonion-use >>of Psychomachia, because it (sometimes) would count as an action >>modifier card requiring Presence? > > No. I'm drawing a blank right now, but I'm pretty sure the issue was covered > fairly thoroughly when Bloodlines first came out. It was yes. It's still on the bloodlines page as well: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/BLdoc.html -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

John Flournoy

As I thought in all cases - thanks for the verifications. -John Flournoy "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:uEbpc.59118$Ut1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... [ quoted text not captured ]