Questions on Play and Drawing out the Beast

Hello, Recently came across the following play, to which I have never seen before but makes an odd kind of sense. The game started and Player A plays a Master: Discipline card on one of his four minions in the inactive region. Is this legal? If not, why? It makes an odd kind of sense as the card does state to play on a vampire. It makes no mention of it being ready, controlled, or uncontrolled. Plus, now you have to pay the extra blood to bring the minion out during your influence. You pay the cost to bring it out and you didn't have to waste the discipline master or go hunt. What is the take on this? ------------- While in combat, you can have play as many Immortal Grapples as you wish to help cycle them out of your hand, so I have been led to believe. If so, can you do the same with Increased Strength cards? And are they cumulative? (i.e. 3 played, thus any potence card played receives +3 damage at normal or +6 at superior) ------------- If a combat is initiated under Dawn Operation, where all damage dealt in the combat is aggravated, does the use of Lady Thunder (a third party to the combat) cause aggravated damage to both parties in the fight upon her ending the fight? Or is this considered normal damage as she is a third party? ------------- Drawing out the Beast - a mean little Common card which is stackable during combat and if you are the acting individual with them in your hand, you can play them all out in one big lay down (not to mention cycle through your library to search for more). How is it that there is only 1 true means of stopping this card (Obedience - Dominate required and only if older than the action minion) while everyone and their brother/sister are up in arms over Immortal Grapple? Which at last count had over 5 different ways of being neutralized or made ineffective. (maneuver, thoughts betrayed, fortitude to prevent damage, direct intervention, obedience... to name a few) Please note: I am not including Direct Intervention as a means to stopping DotB as it can only be used once per turn and as it is actually used on the rush action where you have no clear idea of a DotB deck being used. With IGs you can at least see it coming down, with DotB decks you don't until after combat is initiated and then it is far to late. The use of S:CE does nothing against the damage. Nor does the use of the Elysium or Lady Thunder's special ability (which acts as an Elysium). As the person who wants the combat normally does not have the Elysium is able to play all their Pre-range cards prior to it being tapped and thus ending the fight. I have made some private inqueries and nothing has really come out from it that can possibly dent a DotB except possible hand jam and Obedience (limited). All others either provide you the capability of taking the offending DotB minion into torpor with you or with you just soaking up the damage. Has anybody come across a method of dealing with DotB that reduces or neutralizes the amount of damage received that I have missed? Any other comments on this? Please keep in mind, I am not looking to get shouted at. I am simply surprised by the way Immortal Grapple has been beaten upon while Drawing out the Beast stands in the shadows laughing. Michael Eichler -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8dfc8p$t9r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ramsteiner <ramst...@my-deja.com> wrote: > Hello, > > Recently came across the following play, to which I have never seen > before but makes an odd kind of sense. > > The game started and Player A plays a Master: Discipline card on one > of his four minions in the inactive region. Is this legal? No, isn't. This topic was already covered on a recent thread. > > If not, why? It makes an odd kind of sense as the card does state to > play on a vampire. It makes no mention of it being ready, controlled, > or uncontrolled. Plus, now you have to pay the extra blood to bring > the minion out during your influence. You pay the cost to bring it out > and you didn't have to waste the discipline master or go hunt. > > What is the take on this? > Use of common sense. Unless a card's text stats otherwise, the legal target of a card's effect is always (99 on 100) a card "in play". > ------------- > While in combat, you can have play as many Immortal Grapples as you > wish to help cycle them out of your hand, so I have been led to > believe. If so, can you do the same with Increased Strength cards? > And are they cumulative? (i.e. 3 played, thus any potence card played > receives +3 damage at normal or +6 at superior) Yes, guess that you can cumulate the efeect of multiple Increased strenght effects. > ------------- > If a combat is initiated under Dawn Operation, where all damage dealt > in the combat is aggravated, does the use of Lady Thunder (a third > party to the combat) cause aggravated damage to both parties in the > fight upon her ending the fight? Or is this considered normal damage > as she is a third party? Yes, a "Dawned" Lady Thuder's damage is aggravated. [ quoted text not captured ] Apparition (Chi 1 blood), leads some help. regards, Aemilianus Prince of Rome. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ramsteiner wrote in message <8dfc8p$t9r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>... >Hello, > >Recently came across the following play, to which I have never seen >before but makes an odd kind of sense. > > The game started and Player A plays a Master: Discipline card on one >of his four minions in the inactive region. Is this legal? > No. >If not, why? It makes an odd kind of sense as the card does state to >play on a vampire. It makes no mention of it being ready, controlled, >or uncontrolled. Plus, now you have to pay the extra blood to bring >the minion out during your influence. You pay the cost to bring it out >and you didn't have to waste the discipline master or go hunt. > In order for a card to affect an uncontrolled minion, it must have card specific text, as per the rules. >------------- >While in combat, you can have play as many Immortal Grapples as you >wish to help cycle them out of your hand, so I have been led to >believe. If so, can you do the same with Increased Strength cards? Yes. And Fists of Death. >And are they cumulative? (i.e. 3 played, thus any potence card played >receives +3 damage at normal or +6 at superior) > Yes. >------------- >If a combat is initiated under Dawn Operation, where all damage dealt >in the combat is aggravated, does the use of Lady Thunder (a third >party to the combat) cause aggravated damage to both parties in the >fight upon her ending the fight? Or is this considered normal damage >as she is a third party? > By the fact that card text ends combat, then applies 1 damage to each, I'd say the damage falls outside of combat, and is thus not aggravated... IANALSJ >------------- >Drawing out the Beast - a mean little Common card which is stackable >during combat and if you are the acting individual with them in your >hand, you can play them all out in one big lay down (not to mention >cycle through your library to search for more). >How is it that there is only 1 true means of stopping this card >(Obedience - Dominate required and only if older than the action >minion) while everyone and their brother/sister are up in arms over >Immortal Grapple? Umm. Who's up in arms over IG? And how many tournaments have they won "abusing" it? >The use of S:CE does nothing against the damage. Nor does the use of >the Elysium or Lady Thunder's special ability (which acts as an >Elysium). As the person who wants the combat normally does not have >the Elysium is able to play all their Pre-range cards prior to it being >tapped and thus ending the fight. >I have made some private inqueries and nothing has really come out from >it that can possibly dent a DotB except possible hand jam and Obedience >(limited). All others either provide you the capability of taking the >offending DotB minion into torpor with you or with you just soaking up >the damage. > >Has anybody come across a method of dealing with DotB that reduces or >neutralizes the amount of damage received that I have missed? > Blood Tears of Kephram? Kidding. Really, the best way is in fact to take them with you when you go to torpor... >Any other comments on this? > >Please keep in mind, I am not looking to get shouted at. I am simply >surprised by the way Immortal Grapple has been beaten upon while >Drawing out the Beast stands in the shadows laughing. > Neither one is easy to build a deck that wins tourneys around, so I don't see too much hype being needed for either. What really gets people upset is that the (ab)user of either tactic usually ends up screwing up their prey, and then handing the game to their predator, unless the deck is exceptionally well built and in skilled hands... Thus, rants about both cards crop up on occasion due to someone having their day ruined by sitting next to a deck like that. If someone is repeatedly going to the tactic in casual play, build a focused deck that seeks to do it in, and play as needed to eliminate the habitual annoyance... Good Luck. Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC >Michael Eichler >-- >Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. >(So get in there and kick some butt!) > > [ quoted text not captured ]

"R. David Zopf" <guenh...@mindspring.com> wrote: > Ramsteiner wrote in message <8dfc8p$t9r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>... > > The game started and Player A plays a Master: Discipline card on one > >of his four minions in the inactive region. Is this legal? > > > No. > > >If not, why? It makes an odd kind of sense as the card does state to > >play on a vampire. It makes no mention of it being ready, controlled, > >or uncontrolled. > > In order for a card to affect an uncontrolled minion, it must have card > specific text, as per the rules. Correct. Cards can only affect "in play" cards by default - contested, uncontrolled, or discarded cards cannot be affected (barring explicit card text, of course). > >------------- > >While in combat, you can have play as many Immortal Grapples as you > >wish to help cycle them out of your hand, so I have been led to > >believe. If so, can you do the same with Increased Strength cards? > Yes. And Fists of Death. > > >And are they cumulative? (i.e. 3 played, thus any potence card played > >receives +3 damage at normal or +6 at superior) > > Yes. Correct. > >------------- > >If a combat is initiated under Dawn Operation, where all damage dealt > >in the combat is aggravated, does the use of Lady Thunder (a third > >party to the combat) cause aggravated damage to both parties in the > >fight upon her ending the fight? Or is this considered normal damage > >as she is a third party? > > > By the fact that card text ends combat, then applies 1 damage to each, I'd > say the damage falls outside of combat, and is thus not aggravated... Correct. [RTR 30-JUN-1997] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:57:22 GMT, Ramsteiner <ramst...@my-deja.com> wrote: >Drawing out the Beast - a mean little Common card which is stackable Not common. Uncommon at least. Not especially relevant of course, but. =) >during combat and if you are the acting individual with them in your >hand, you can play them all out in one big lay down (not to mention >cycle through your library to search for more). Yep. You sure can. Rob Grau played a DotB/Aid from Bats weenie ANI horde deck at a tournament once. >How is it that there is only 1 true means of stopping this card >(Obedience - Dominate required and only if older than the action >minion) while everyone and their brother/sister are up in arms over >Immortal Grapple? Which at last count had over 5 different ways of >being neutralized or made ineffective. (maneuver, thoughts betrayed, >fortitude to prevent damage, direct intervention, obedience... to name >a few) A few things... one, I'm on the "IG isn't broken" side of the fence, so I don't even agree with people being up in arms about IG... for much the reasons you state above. Having been seated directly behind Rob's DotB deck at the above tournament, I can make some observations from firsthand experience. One observation is that DotB requires superior Animalism to be effective in this fashion. ANI is naturally found on four different 5-cap vampires, none of whom are the same clan. It's also found on four different 6-caps, 3 of whom are Ravnos. So you can't get ANI very cheaply at ALL. For speed, a Rush deck needs to be using weenies, so little ani guys with skill cards are required. So you're looking at skill cards, a pile of DotBs, some Aid from Bats, some Rush actions, and maybe some Blood Dolls too. The Rush actions only need to be used backwards, so you can just bleed for 1 lots and vaporize anything that blocks for your offense. What really ends up being a problem is that even weenies with ANI are not very durable. If they happen to have one maneuver in their hand OR if you don't cycle to an Aid from Bats, they come back to close range and with +4 or +5 hand damage, you've just traded minions. It looks like a good trade on your part, but it's so tough to get ANI out on people that it really hurts you just as much to lose one. Another problem is big vamps. To kill a full 7 or 8-cap vampire, you need a LOT of DotB. This runs your library out quickly, to the point where you just can't put enough DotB cards in and still fit under the 90-card limit. So what you end up with is a deck that can kill its predator and gain one VP from its prey, but then be out of cards. =/ Most people opt not to play this sort of deck, as 1 VP per round is not really enough to make the finals and the table begins to gang up on you a bit. >Please keep in mind, I am not looking to get shouted at. I am simply >surprised by the way Immortal Grapple has been beaten upon while >Drawing out the Beast stands in the shadows laughing. ...Chuckling. Merely chuckling. ;) -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

In article <C8A6516D2505FFAA.CE4D04FB...@lp.airnews.net>, lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > Ramsteiner <ramst...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > >Drawing out the Beast - a mean little Common card which is stackable > > Not common. Uncommon at least. Not especially relevant of course, > but. =) Actually, it is extremely common. If you had tried to buy them from www.sengir.com 2-3 weeks ago, you could have bought 80 of them for 5 cents each. If you purchase VTES/Jyhad boosters now, you will find Drawing out the Beast in the common slots. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

> The game started and Player A plays a Master: Discipline card on one >of his four minions in the inactive region. Is this legal? > tetragrammaton - No, isn't. This topic was already covered on a recent thread. I must have missed the recent thread. R. David Zopf - No. ===================================================== >If not, why? It makes an odd kind of sense as the card does state to >play on a vampire. It makes no mention of it being ready, controlled, >or uncontrolled. Plus, now you have to pay the extra blood to bring >the minion out during your influence. You pay the cost to bring it out >and you didn't have to waste the discipline master or go hunt. > tetragrammaton - Use of common sense. Unless a card's text stats otherwise, the legal target of a card's effect is always (99 on 100) a card "in play". Actually, I was using common sense. The fact the card states nothing about the status of the vampire it can be played on. Additionally, it didn’t help missing a page within my copy of errata that eventually lead to the question. R. David Zopf - In order for a card to affect an uncontrolled minion, it must have card specific text, as per the rules. ===================================================== > While in combat, you can have play as many Immortal Grapples as you > wish to help cycle them out of your hand, so I have been led to > believe. If so, can you do the same with Increased Strength cards? > And are they cumulative? (i.e. 3 played, thus any potence card played > receives +3 damage at normal or +6 at superior) tetragrammaton - Yes, guess that you can cumulate the efeect of multiple Increased strenght effects. R. David Zopf - Yes. And Fists of Death. Thanks. This is an aspect I have not explored before, much less seen. ===================================================== > If a combat is initiated under Dawn Operation, where all damage dealt > in the combat is aggravated, does the use of Lady Thunder (a third > party to the combat) cause aggravated damage to both parties in the > fight upon her ending the fight? Or is this considered normal damage > as she is a third party? tetragrammaton - Yes, a "Dawned" Lady Thuder's damage is aggravated. R. David Zopf - By the fact that card text ends combat, then applies 1 damage to each, I'd say the damage falls outside of combat, and is thus not aggravated... IANALSJ LSJ - Correct. [RTR 30-JUN-1997] Thank you for the answer. I am glad to see that I am not the only one who was unsure. ===================================================== >Drawing out the Beast - a mean little Common card which is stackable >during combat and if you are the acting individual with them in your >hand, you can play them all out in one big lay down (not to mention >cycle through your library to search for more). Derek Ray - Yep. You sure can. Rob Grau played a DotB/Aid from Bats weenie ANI horde deck at a tournament once. I came across one at the Frankfurt tournament that took the two tables I was sitting on. It went on to take the finals. Thus, I have been searching for the weak link in the card before I start seeing DotB decks pop out of the woodwork here. (Which has already started.) >How is it that there is only 1 true means of stopping this card >(Obedience - Dominate required and only if older than the action >minion) while everyone and their brother/sister are up in arms over >Immortal Grapple? R. David Zopf - Umm. Who's up in arms over IG? And how many tournaments have they won "abusing" it? I am actually referring to <Im. Grapple: what to do??>. As to the number of tournaments won using it (I am guessing you’re referring to IG), I don’t know. I like the card personally. My question was in reference to DotB. <snip> >Has anybody come across a method of dealing with DotB that reduces or >neutralizes the amount of damage received that I have missed? > R. David Zopf - Blood Tears of Kephram? Kidding. Really, the best way is in fact to take them with you when you go to torpor... From everything I can find, going through the cards and now a newly printed errata listing, I am inclined to agree with you. Derek Ray - A few things... one, I'm on the "IG isn't broken" side of the fence, so I don't even agree with people being up in arms about IG... for much the reasons you state above. Having been seated directly behind Rob's DotB deck at the above tournament, I can make some observations from firsthand experience. My reference is from <Im. Grapple: what to do??>. I don’t believe that IG is broken either, it was being used as a comparison. Derek Ray - One observation is that DotB requires superior Animalism to be effective in this fashion. ANI is naturally found on four different 5-cap vampires, none of whom are the same clan. It's also found on four different 6-caps, 3 of whom are Ravnos. So you can't get ANI very cheaply at ALL. I agree with the observation. Now, did you just pull this all up (via the Elder Library – Thanks David) or did you decide after the Rob Treasure DotB experience to look around as well? Derek Ray - For speed, a Rush deck needs to be using weenies, so little ani guys with skill cards are required. So you're looking at skill cards, a pile of DotBs, some Aid from Bats, some Rush actions, and maybe some Blood Dolls too. The Rush actions only need to be used backwards, so you can just bleed for 1 lots and vaporize anything that blocks for your offense. Again, I agree with the observation at least to the degree of requiring some little ani vampires with skill cards to augment their capability. For speed, the use of weenies (I agree) should be used. For a deck that moves at a more moderate pace (not a speed-demon), I don’t necessarily agree with the need of an all weenie crypt. But I suppose it also depends upon definition of weenies. (To me weenies constitutes the use of large quantities of 1-3 point minions. I don’t know your definition.) Derek Ray - What really ends up being a problem is that even weenies with ANI are not very durable. If they happen to have one maneuver in their hand OR if you don't cycle to an Aid from Bats, they come back to close range and with +4 or +5 hand damage, you've just traded minions. It looks like a good trade on your part, but it's so tough to get ANI out on people that it really hurts you just as much to lose one. Another problem is big vamps. To kill a full 7 or 8-cap vampire, you need a LOT of DotB. This runs your library out quickly, to the point where you just can't put enough DotB cards in and still fit under the 90-card limit. So what you end up with is a deck that can kill its predator and gain one VP from its prey, but then be out of cards. =/ Most people opt not to play this sort of deck, as 1 VP per round is not really enough to make the finals and the table begins to gang up on you a bit. The player, Joern Stark, did some beautiful work with his use of the DotB deck. From my recall, he hammered the smaller (6 >) minions until the larger minions had brought their blood totals down to workable levels and then pounced on them. How the deck would stand against a weenie speed bleeder, I don’t know. But there were no weenie (1-3 point vampires) speed bleeders at the tournament, to my knowledge. It just raised some questions within my play group, thus I have been seeking answers. Rob Grau and Joern Stark, my hat is off to you both for working DotB decks with finesse. Michael Eichler [ quoted text not captured ]

Ramsteiner <ramst...@my-deja.com> wrote: >> If so, can you do the same with Increased Strength cards? >> And are they cumulative? (i.e. 3 played, thus any potence card >> played receives +3 damage at normal or +6 at superior) > > tetragrammaton - Yes, guess that you can cumulate the efeect of > multiple Increased strenght effects. > > R. David Zopf - Yes. And Fists of Death. > > Thanks. This is an aspect I have not explored before, much less seen. I'll have to introduce you to my Brujah Anethema/Trap/IG deck that uses pre-range cards to generate an unholy amount of hand damage. >> How is it that there is only 1 true means of stopping [DotB] There are a number of cards that generate 1 point of damage after a combat round ends. It's balanced by kicking up the opposing hand damage too. Of course, Gangrel, Ravnos and, to a lesser extent, Tzimisce have damage prevention to offset that. Nosferatu, OTOH, don't have much available. Besides, as a whole, it's tough to use Animalism get VPs as it doesn't provide any blood or pool management cards and isn't easily paired with Presence or Dominate. >> Has anybody come across a method of dealing with DotB that reduces >> or neutralizes the amount of damage received that I have missed? > > From everything I can find, going through the cards and now a newly > printed errata listing, I am inclined to agree with you. Stackable, unpreventable damage is tough. But it's very difficult to exploit this and to my knowledge, the 15 Bums Rush/60 DotB/15 Catatonic Fear deck never won any tournaments. After all, if a combo doesn't produce VP's, it doesn't produce many decks. Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8dff9u$133$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tetragr...@my-deja.com writes >> Has anybody come across a method of dealing with DotB that reduces or >> neutralizes the amount of damage received that I have missed? >> >Apparition (Chi 1 blood), leads some help. The damage dealt at end of round from Drawing out the Beast is unpreventable. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.zephyr.org.uk