:DOUGDWISE wrote:
>Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> writes:>> Steven Bucy wrote:
>> The cards I believe should be banned:>> Thoughts Betrayed> Yes. This is the ultimate trump, used primarily by Tremere
>decks. (No. The Dom-Pot combinations need it to stack up against
>the Pot-Cel or Pro-For or Cel-Tha or Ani-Vic combinations-which is
>in itself a sign of a previous screwup.)
:Nathan, just to clarify: are you in favor of adding this to a banned
:list? If so I agree.
Yes. My problem now is "How do Giovanni/Lasombra deal
with the enhanced other types of combat decks without dying
horribly? The only way I can see it is an Immortal Grapple
and a Burning Wrath as first and only strike.
(Sorry about the schizophrenia there. Some purely selfishly
motivated bit of me is yelling-no! No! I just got Lazverinus for
Ventrue combat/bleed Dom Pot For! Not now! Legendary Vampire,
Isle of Yiaros, Dawn Operation, Thoughts Betrayed! Bleeds for 8,
votes with 4, hands for 7 without adding superior Potence! But it's
under control now. It's under control.)
>> Walk through Arcadia> No. Malk-antitribu specific, rare, and easily fixed by errata to
>increase damage with the failed flip.
Personally, I think that a. you'll never see it in any sort of
quantity unless you're playing Mr. Suitcase who's playing Malkavian
antitribu, b. there are ways for non-Malk decks to deal with Malks,
c. it carries a penalty in itself, and d. if the broken stuff like
Return
to Innocence goes away, it isn't broken.
:Well, I am not in favor of considering rarity as a factor while
:determining card acceptability. My personal feeling is that I am not
:comfortable with these cards that make you flip a coin. But I would
:support errata to make the penalty for a failed flip torpor. That
would
:make it either a Day Op with only the good effect or with only the
bad.
Doug, are you coming down a little too hard on the Malkie
antitribu side of things? Personally, I think that the Malks just got
p!$$off cards like Derange, clone cards like Eyes of Chaos and Mind
Tricks, useless cards like Passion and Wave of Insanity, and really
nasty cards like Mind of a Child. Coma is IMO, the first decent
combat card the Design team let Malkavians have. It is the
same as Entombment at superior, isn't it?
>> Direct Intervention> This thing makes me kinda queasy. I don't like it, but as
>long as the other cards on this list stay, it has to remain a
>playable card. It isn't nearly as abusive as Return to Innocence,
>or Archon Investigation...I can say that in its favor.
:I'd prefer not to ever have any cards like this in TGFKAJ. It
:smacks of Mt$ cheese.
Get rid of Return and Archon, as well as Thoughts
Betrayed, and it isn't necessary any more. That's it. I won't
play with it, and no one else is getting mine.
>> Coma> No. It's a 3 blood Rowan Ring effect. Even Malkavian
>antitribu have little to mediocre combat defense, and there is no
>other way to stop the additional strike effect for Malks. Quick
>Exit and Strike:Dodges don't mean anything with extra strike
>extra strike extra strike in play. So you dodged the first one,
>huh? Big deal.
:Should every clan be able to stop additional strike effects? Should
every
:clan have a way of stopping aggravated damage? I think it should be
:possible for each clan to defend itself but I don't think it should be
:with a single card that works against all the other clans' combat
tactics.
:This just seems too easy a defense. Perhaps if it were a S:CE at 3
:blood.
But an S:CE at 3 blood is prohibitively expensive, and if it's
_only_ an S:CE...why? I think that the Malkavian antitribu need to
defend themselves, especially in the Sabbat environment, and that if
Walk Through Arcadia goes, we'd be banning two Malk antitribu
cards. Only Malk anti have the ability to play Dementation, and
although there are crossovers, the only time you'd ever have them
is in a Malk anti deck and the only...problems...with...other...
vampires...are...with...Ian. Yuck.
Article Unavailable
Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]>>Yet I don't want to go overboard on banning right now-that's too
>>dangerous to the quality of the game, especially for Malk antitribu
>>with the current list.>:I second that, Nathan. Let's give it a bit to shake out the set and
>see
>:what problems there may be. I think the set may have fewer problems if
>:taken as a stand-alone game and used with no cards from V:tES or the
>:expansions.> Perhaps it would have fewer problems in comparative strength,
>but I think that that's impossible, given the current cardset. The
>only decks which are possible given the weak votes and weaker bleed
>are combat decks. I put together a Brujah rush in 15 minutes using
>all but 12 Potence/Celerity Sabbat cards that pulped a lot of vampires.
>Brujah rush was very possible, but I had to use Donal, Dre, Volker,
>and doubles of Anvil to make it work. (Plus the Haven Uncovereds
>and Bums' Rushes. Plus Torn Signposts. Plus Amaranths. How
>could they reprint 1/4th the original set and leave _Amaranth_ out
>of Sabbat?)
> I want a City Gangrel deck, Cel Obf Pro, but that is purely
>impossible with the vampires in Sabbat. Samantha 10, Zachary 7,
>Pieter 6, Blaise 7, Sadie 2, Huang 1, Beast 7. I can't do it, not even
>with duplicates (which I don't have). Now if I add the Assamites
>Tansu Bekir 4 and Kalinda 6, Chandler Hungerford 3, Daliyah 4,
>and Zebulon 5, I can. Granted, the City Gangrel are tough anyway,
>but I doubt that I can make any pure Sabbat deck work (with only
>_one_ box...sarcasm on.)
> (More depression-oh lord, how many more boxes would I
>need before I could get anything near to enough cards to play pure
>Sabbat?) Nathan crawls into a corner and curls up.> Banning Thoughts Betrayed, Archon Investigation, and
>Return to Innocence works for me, and as of now, they are the
>only cards which should be banned. The Sabbat cards which were
>questionable-Quickness, Lightning Strike, should be errataed
>or house ruled.
> I have no problem with Direct Intervention (without
>the first 3), Fame as unique, Walk through Arcadia, and Coma.
Archon Investigation?? You mean let Stealth bleed have now fear,
Arika + Govern + Conditioning = UGH! Keep it reasonable escpecally
with new stealth cards.
Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> wrote in article <328020...@hula.net>...
Hmmm...I just read this:
>>It isn't nearly as abusive as Return to Innocence,> >or Archon Investigation...I can say that in its favor.
> :I'd prefer not to ever have any cards like this in TGFKAJ. It
> :smacks of Mt$ cheese.
>
> Get rid of Return and Archon, as well as Thoughts
> Betrayed, and it isn't necessary any more. That's it. I won't
> play with it, and no one else is getting mine.
And this:
> Banning Thoughts Betrayed, Archon Investigation, and
> Return to Innocence works for me, and as of now, they are the
> only cards which should be banned. The Sabbat cards which were
> questionable-Quickness, Lightning Strike, should be errataed
> or house ruled.
> I have no problem with Direct Intervention (without
> the first 3), Fame as unique, Walk through Arcadia, and Coma.
And I have a question: Can someone (anyone?) explain to me how Archon
Investigation is "broken" or "abusive"??? Sure, it can be used to burn a
vampire (at a cost of 3 pool), but a) it is easily avoided (just keep those
bleeds down to 3 pool each time and no worries!), b) it costs 3 pool and a
Master Phase action to use, and c) it takes up valuable space in your hand
unless your opponent decides to come in on a big bleed.
The cards I see as abusive are cards that a very nasty deck can be built
around, that your opponents can do little about unless they have come to
the game knowing you will be playing it. Archon Investigation isn't such a
card. Thoughts Betrayed, Return to Innocence, and Tomb of Ramses are.
-Elfholme
In article <328020...@hula.net>, Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> writes:
>
>:DOUGDWISE wrote:>>Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> writes:>>> Steven Bucy wrote:
~~~~~~~stuff deleted~~~~~~~~
>>> Walk through Arcadia>> No. Malk-antitribu specific, rare, and easily fixed by errata to
>>increase damage with the failed flip.> Personally, I think that a. you'll never see it in any sort of
>quantity unless you're playing Mr. Suitcase who's playing Malkavian
>antitribu, b. there are ways for non-Malk decks to deal with Malks,
>c. it carries a penalty in itself, and d. if the broken stuff like
>Return
>to Innocence goes away, it isn't broken.
>
>:Well, I am not in favor of considering rarity as a factor while
>:determining card acceptability. My personal feeling is that I am not
>:comfortable with these cards that make you flip a coin. But I would
>:support errata to make the penalty for a failed flip torpor. That
>would
>:make it either a Day Op with only the good effect or with only the
>bad.
>
> Doug, are you coming down a little too hard on the Malkie
>antitribu side of things? Personally, I think that the Malks just got
>p!$$off cards like Derange, clone cards like Eyes of Chaos and Mind
>Tricks, useless cards like Passion and Wave of Insanity, and really
>nasty cards like Mind of a Child. Coma is IMO, the first decent
>combat card the Design team let Malkavians have. It is the
>same as Entombment at superior, isn't it?
Nathan, I have to believe that this was your response to my comments on
Coma which lie below. Anyway, I don't like Walk Through Arcadia because
it makes a coin toss necessary. Maybe it's just my little quirk. Let's
move on.
>>> Coma>> No. It's a 3 blood Rowan Ring effect. Even Malkavian
>>antitribu have little to mediocre combat defense, and there is no
>>other way to stop the additional strike effect for Malks. Quick
>>Exit and Strike:Dodges don't mean anything with extra strike
>>extra strike extra strike in play. So you dodged the first one,
>>huh? Big deal.>
>:Should every clan be able to stop additional strike effects? Should
>every
>:clan have a way of stopping aggravated damage? I think it should be
>:possible for each clan to defend itself but I don't think it should be
>:with a single card that works against all the other clans' combat
>tactics.
>:This just seems too easy a defense. Perhaps if it were a S:CE at 3
>:blood.
>
> But an S:CE at 3 blood is prohibitively expensive, and if it's
>_only_ an S:CE...why? I think that the Malkavian antitribu need to
>defend themselves, especially in the Sabbat environment, and that if
>Walk Through Arcadia goes, we'd be banning two Malk antitribu
>cards. Only Malk anti have the ability to play Dementation, and
>although there are crossovers, the only time you'd ever have them
>is in a Malk anti deck and the only...problems...with...other...
>vampires...are...with...Ian. Yuck.
Yeah, I took a look at that and am puzzled myself at why I wrote that it
would be OK as a 3 blood S:CE. What was I drinking that day? Anyway,
what I think I was trying to say was that it would be fine as a 1 blood
S:CE for Malks. I am not in favor of every clan being able to hold it's
own in combat just because combat is dangerous, mind you. Politics are
dangerous as well and nobody thinks that the Gangrel should be able to
stand up toe-to-toe in a political fight with clans that are politically
inclined. But, as the Malk Antis will probably have a tougher time
bleeding than those other crazies, I do think that a S:CE usable by them
is OK. I don't think that they can be a torporizing force in combat with
just the Coma card as written and would likely be monster snacks if they
tried.
[ quoted text not captured ]> Banning Thoughts Betrayed, Archon Investigation, and
>Return to Innocence works for me, and as of now, they are the
>only cards which should be banned. The Sabbat cards which were
>questionable-Quickness, Lightning Strike, should be errataed
>or house ruled.
> I have no problem with Direct Intervention (without
>the first 3), Fame as unique, Walk through Arcadia, and Coma.
Well, we still disagree about Direct Intervention. It seems as if the
idea is to make a non-Jyhad-like card to counter all those other
no-Jyhad-like cards. Yecch.
Yeah, after looking over the vote cards I see that there is really no way
to do a nasty offensive vote deck.
Was the idea that politics in the Sabbat was not as big a deal as in the
rest of the vampire world and that combat should dominate to reflect the
violent nature of Sabbat power struggles?
Good luck with the Eternal Struggle,
Doug Dunaway
> Chris Berg wrote:
> Archon Investigation?? You mean let Stealth bleed have no fear,> Arika + Govern + Conditioning = UGH! Keep it reasonable escpecally
> with new stealth cards.
But look at it another way. In a Ventrue vote deck, Arika
has temporarily run out of votes to call, and you're her prey.
She decides to oust you by bleeding you, since as an Inner Circler,
she has +2 bleed without Govern the Unaligned. You block. Arika
doesn't have a Majesty to use, and this is primarily a vote deck,
so no Obfuscate. There is, however, a Bonding. Arika gets through,
bleeding for a total of 4. You pay three pool, burn Arika, and
your predator is screwed over. He has lost a 11 capacity vampire,
4 votes, +2 bleed, all the blood on Arika, 3 transfer phases, a
successful bleed, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.
The Archon Investigation player doesn't lose 4 pool, and
will probably live quite a bit longer-why? His predator no longer
has vote superiority over the rest of the table, has lost a vampire
to call votes or bleed, and will have to be more defensive than
offensive. It's unfair. There are other ways to deal with Arika's
bleed, such as intercepting, rushing her before she can bleed, or
deflecting, none of which are as unfair as Archon Investigation.
(Using Archon Investigation-all right, it's a hoser. You'd
only use it if you knew somebody was going to be playing heavy
bleed, or else it might stick in your hand and clog it...now would
that be your friend, or some guy who might be playing S/B in a
tournament? Your friend, right? And only one or two specific
friends. Why are you playing to hose over your friends? Using
Archon Investigation is like tossing in the Cultivated Blood
Shortage just because Bob and Arika are coming over tonight, and
putting in the Tragic Love Affair because Jess and Anson are
coming, too.)
-Nathan Harada
On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Nathan Harada wrote:
> > Chris Berg wrote:
> > Archon Investigation?? You mean let Stealth bleed have no fear,> > Arika + Govern + Conditioning = UGH! Keep it reasonable escpecally
> > with new stealth cards.
>[ quoted text not captured ]
Perfect example, actually, of why Archon Investigation is a great card
and *NOT* a hoser. Arika could have bled without modifiers and would have
bled for 3 and been perfectly safe from AI. Knowing that AIs are out
there, she made the concious decision to go for the risky 4 rather than
the safe 3. Why, if she is crucial to a vote deck, would she do this?
Greed or recklessness. Both these two faults should be punishable. As
well, it is not to say that one can never bleed for 17 when AI is in the
game. One has to be clever about drawing it out though. Go in first with
a weenie for a large bleed (say 5). If it lives, you've bled for 5 and
likely proven that he doesn't have an AI in hand. If it draws out an AI,
you are then safe for big bleeds.
AI forces a heavy bleed deck to think. Having played my share of games
against idiot bleed decks, I'm glad that there is a way to put
calculation and cunning back into their game.
Nathan Harada wrote:
>
> > Chris Berg wrote:> > Archon Investigation?? You mean let Stealth bleed have no fear,> > Arika + Govern + Conditioning = UGH! Keep it reasonable escpecally
> > with new stealth cards.
>[ quoted text not captured ]> -Nathan Harada __
_--- hey as soon as I know the RTI is gone I will oblige
Karl
Malcolm McCallum <mcca...@pacificcoast.net> writes:
>On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Nathan Harada wrote:>> > Chris Berg wrote:>> > Archon Investigation?? You mean let Stealth bleed have no fear,>> > Arika + Govern + Conditioning = UGH! Keep it reasonable escpecally
>> > with new stealth cards.
>>>> But look at it another way. In a Ventrue vote deck, Arika
>> has temporarily run out of votes to call, and you're her prey.
>> She decides to oust you by bleeding you, since as an Inner Circler,
>> she has +2 bleed without Govern the Unaligned. You block. Arika
>> doesn't have a Majesty to use, and this is primarily a vote deck,
>> so no Obfuscate. There is, however, a Bonding. Arika gets through,
>> bleeding for a total of 4. You pay three pool, burn Arika, and
>> your predator is screwed over. He has lost a 11 capacity vampire,
>> 4 votes, +2 bleed, all the blood on Arika, 3 transfer phases, a
>> successful bleed, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.>Perfect example, actually, of why Archon Investigation is a great card>and *NOT* a hoser. Arika could have bled without modifiers and would have
>bled for 3 and been perfectly safe from AI. Knowing that AIs are out
>there, she made the concious decision to go for the risky 4 rather than
>the safe 3. Why, if she is crucial to a vote deck, would she do this?
For the stealth, as Nathan said.
>Greed or recklessness. Both these two faults should be punishable.
Needing stealth is not greed nor recklessness. If she had an option
to gain (the needed) stealth without increasing the bleed, but instead
chose to increase the bleed along with the stealth, *then* she could
be accused of greed.
>AI forces a heavy bleed deck to think. Having played my share of games
>against idiot bleed decks, I'm glad that there is a way to put
>calculation and cunning back into their game.
Try using deflection. At least then you have to think for your defense
as much as they have to think for their offense.
Or, if you want real cunning, try a rush combat deck. Granted, it takes a
lot more skill to use than AI, but that's the whole point.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Experience is something you
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | get just after you need it.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:38:32 -0800, Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com>
wrote:
>Nathan Harada wrote:>> But look at it another way. In a Ventrue vote deck, Arika
>> has temporarily run out of votes to call, and you're her prey.
>> She decides to oust you by bleeding you, since as an Inner Circler,
>> she has +2 bleed without Govern the Unaligned. You block. Arika
>> doesn't have a Majesty to use, and this is primarily a vote deck,
>> so no Obfuscate. There is, however, a Bonding. Arika gets through,
>> bleeding for a total of 4. You pay three pool, burn Arika, and
>> your predator is screwed over. He has lost a 11 capacity vampire,
>> 4 votes, +2 bleed, all the blood on Arika, 3 transfer phases, a
>> successful bleed, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.>> The Archon Investigation player doesn't lose 4 pool, and
>> will probably live quite a bit longer-why? His predator no longer
>> has vote superiority over the rest of the table, has lost a vampire
>> to call votes or bleed, and will have to be more defensive than
>> offensive. It's unfair. There are other ways to deal with Arika's
>> bleed, such as intercepting, rushing her before she can bleed, or
>> deflecting, none of which are as unfair as Archon Investigation.
>> (Using Archon Investigation-all right, it's a hoser. You'd
>> only use it if you knew somebody was going to be playing heavy
>> bleed, or else it might stick in your hand and clog it...now would
>> that be your friend, or some guy who might be playing S/B in a
>> tournament? Your friend, right? And only one or two specific
>> friends. Why are you playing to hose over your friends? Using
>> Archon Investigation is like tossing in the Cultivated Blood
>> Shortage just because Bob and Arika are coming over tonight, and
>> putting in the Tragic Love Affair because Jess and Anson are
>> coming, too.)
>>
>> -Nathan Harada __>
>_--- hey as soon as I know the RTI is gone I will oblige
>
> Karl
Hey, haven't we realized that RTI is also broken(cough, cough,
sputter, a broken card in Jyhad? Well, not until after the name
change and the introduction of bleed hose, which the design team seems
to think justifies RTI)? Yes, it is. I don't play with in around
here anymore for precisely that reason. Even in my monster bleed
decks, thank you.
Alec Chang
In article <56a6p7$8...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L.
Scott Johnson) wrote:
> Malcolm McCallum <mcca...@pacificcoast.net> writes:
> >On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Nathan Harada wrote:
> >> > Chris Berg wrote:> >> > Archon Investigation?? You mean let Stealth bleed have no fear,> >> > Arika + Govern + Conditioning = UGH! Keep it reasonable escpecally
> >> > with new stealth cards.
> >>> >> But look at it another way. In a Ventrue vote deck, Arika
> >> has temporarily run out of votes to call, and you're her prey.
> >> She decides to oust you by bleeding you, since as an Inner Circler,
> >> she has +2 bleed without Govern the Unaligned. You block. Arika
> >> doesn't have a Majesty to use, and this is primarily a vote deck,
> >> so no Obfuscate. There is, however, a Bonding. Arika gets through,
> >> bleeding for a total of 4. You pay three pool, burn Arika, and
> >> your predator is screwed over. He has lost a 11 capacity vampire,
> >> 4 votes, +2 bleed, all the blood on Arika, 3 transfer phases, a
> >> successful bleed, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.
>> >Perfect example, actually, of why Archon Investigation is a great card
> >and *NOT* a hoser. Arika could have bled without modifiers and would have
> >bled for 3 and been perfectly safe from AI. Knowing that AIs are out
> >there, she made the concious decision to go for the risky 4 rather than
> >the safe 3. Why, if she is crucial to a vote deck, would she do this?
>
> For the stealth, as Nathan said.
>
> >Greed or recklessness. Both these two faults should be punishable.
>
> Needing stealth is not greed nor recklessness. If she had an option
> to gain (the needed) stealth without increasing the bleed, but instead
> chose to increase the bleed along with the stealth, *then* she could
> be accused of greed.
Compare what would happen if she had Chimerstry and you were using Fata
Morgana if you don't understand that.
J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com>
PGP keys by request
In article <ewwa-ya02308000...@news.chattanooga.net>, "J.
Andrew Lipscomb" <ew...@chattanooga.net> writes
>>Perfect example, actually, of why Archon Investigation is a great card
>> >and *NOT* a hoser. Arika could have bled without modifiers and would have
>> >bled for 3 and been perfectly safe from AI. Knowing that AIs are out
>> >there, she made the concious decision to go for the risky 4 rather than
>> >the safe 3. Why, if she is crucial to a vote deck, would she do this?
Just a minor point, but would an Archon Investigation be usable on an
Inner Circle. I mean, it can from a rules point of view, but
considering that Princes and Justicars control Archons and the Inner
Circle control the Justicars, surely they would be able to prevent
themselves being investigated. I mean, this would cause a fairly big
shift in play strategy, but if you can afford to get an IC member out
without suffering any ill effects surely you should get some reward (ie
not being burned on your very first bleed).
Justin Grace
http://www.bgrace.demon.co.uk/
> Justin wrote:
> In article <ewwa-ya02308000...@news.chattanooga.net>, "J.
> Andrew Lipscomb" <ew...@chattanooga.net> writes
> >>Perfect example, actually, of why Archon Investigation is a great card
> >> >and *NOT* a hoser. Arika could have bled without modifiers and would have
> >> >bled for 3 and been perfectly safe from AI. Knowing that AIs are out
> >> >there, she made the concious decision to go for the risky 4 rather than
> >> >the safe 3. Why, if she is crucial to a vote deck, would she do this?
I had an example where Arika used a Bonding to get
a bleed through, having no Majesty, Dawn Operation, or Day Operation.
She was promptly burned. So I was supposed to a. not ever bleed
with Arika, or b. let her get caught and beaten up by my prey's
minions when I had the Bonding right there?
> Just a minor point, but would an Archon Investigation be usable on an
> Inner Circle. I mean, it can from a rules point of view, but
> considering that Princes and Justicars control Archons and the Inner
> Circle control the Justicars, surely they would be able to prevent
> themselves being investigated. I mean, this would cause a fairly big
> shift in play strategy, but if you can afford to get an IC member out
> without suffering any ill effects surely you should get some reward (ie
> not being burned on your very first bleed).
> Justin Grace
Personally, I think that the Inner Circlers should be
unaffected by Archon Investigation and Justicar Retribution as
they are unaffected by Blood Hunt. However, I also think that
Archon Investigation is unfair and broken, and that banning it
entirely would be a good fix for the card.
-Nathan Harada
___________________________________________________________
I am going to burn down the world
I am going to tear down everything that cannot stand alone
I am going to turn ideals to shit
I am going to shove hope up your ass
I am going to reduce everything that stands to rubble
And then I am going to burn the rubble
And then I am going to scatter the ashes
And then maybe SOMEONE will be able to see SOMETHING as it really is
WATCH OUT
-- Mel Lyman
________________________________________________________________
> I had an example where Arika used a Bonding to get
>a bleed through, having no Majesty, Dawn Operation, or Day Operation.
>She was promptly burned. So I was supposed to a. not ever bleed
>with Arika, or b. let her get caught and beaten up by my prey's
>minions when I had the Bonding right there?
I havent used bonding on arika yet... (I think...) but once i bleed for 8 with
leandro and survived.
There is two important cards in a ventrue bleed deck that is nearly as good
as stealth. Even better...
Misdirection - if he leave some vampires up, then he have no wake for sure.
The sleeping Mind - to get rid of wakes...
My Ventrue deck bleeds more than my Malkavaian deck, and my Ventrue deck still
never bleeds of more than 3.
Bleed for three, freak drive, Kine Resources Contested...
> Personally, I think that the Inner Circlers should be
>unaffected by Archon Investigation and Justicar Retribution as
>they are unaffected by Blood Hunt. However, I also think that
>Archon Investigation is unfair and broken, and that banning it
>entirely would be a good fix for the card.
I think there was a meaning from the beginning that Justicar Retribution would
destroy only inner circle members.
And still, I have no problem with Archon Investigation, and I shiver in fear
when I think of how Vampire would become Magic TG without it.
>Just a minor point, but would an Archon Investigation be usable on an
>Inner Circle. I mean, it can from a rules point of view, but
>considering that Princes and Justicars control Archons and the Inner
>Circle control the Justicars, surely they would be able to prevent
>themselves being investigated. I mean, this would cause a fairly big
>shift in play strategy, but if you can afford to get an IC member out
>without suffering any ill effects surely you should get some reward (ie
>not being burned on your very first bleed).
The thing to be an archon is that you go under no rules to force other
vampires into obedience the rules.
A real Archon can (If he is lucky) even slay his own justicar creator if he
goes past the blood bound and the justicar done something wrong.
(The justicar never do anything illegal though... he have the rights to do
everything, but if he abuse his title, then he surely do wrong.)
by the way, the inner circle never dies on his first bleed, as long as noone
blocks and his bleed doesn't increase above 3.
On 06 Jan 97 14:33:04 -500, staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
(staffan.bengtsson) wrote:
>> I had an example where Arika used a Bonding to get
>>a bleed through, having no Majesty, Dawn Operation, or Day Operation.
>>She was promptly burned. So I was supposed to a. not ever bleed
>>with Arika, or b. let her get caught and beaten up by my prey's
>>minions when I had the Bonding right there?>
>I havent used bonding on arika yet... (I think...) but once i bleed for 8 with
>leandro and survived.
>There is two important cards in a ventrue bleed deck that is nearly as good
>as stealth. Even better...
>
>Misdirection - if he leave some vampires up, then he have no wake for sure.
>The sleeping Mind - to get rid of wakes...
Y'know, the Sleeping mind combined with misdirection is something that
all of us "old-timers" here(sorry, I'm being sarcastic, and some
people might not get it) would call pretty darn broken. No untaps, no
reactions, geeze, you just got yourself an ousted prey! How sweet.
How bloody unfair.
>My Ventrue deck bleeds more than my Malkavaian deck, and my Ventrue deck still
>never bleeds of more than 3.
But why should it be restrained to just 3 pool a bleed? Shouldn't it
be able to bleed for more if it can get the action through? I'm
afraid that the Sleeping Mind might get slightly unfair if it
regularly aided unblockable bleeds of 10, but unless you're using
Spiridonas or RTI(both broken), such bleeds take a huge expenditure of
resources which can be disrupted at any time by a good non-bleed deck.
>Bleed for three, freak drive, Kine Resources Contested...
Freak drive has always struck me as problematic.
>> Personally, I think that the Inner Circlers should be
>>unaffected by Archon Investigation and Justicar Retribution as
>>they are unaffected by Blood Hunt. However, I also think that
>>Archon Investigation is unfair and broken, and that banning it
>>entirely would be a good fix for the card.>
>I think there was a meaning from the beginning that Justicar Retribution would
>destroy only inner circle members.
That's stupid. Then why did they make it? Hosers bother me,
especially when someone tries to explain away one broken card with
another.....
>And still, I have no problem with Archon Investigation, and I shiver in fear
>when I think of how Vampire would become Magic TG without it.
How? As I mentioned above, I find that AI does nothing for the game
beyond crippling the ability of many bleed decks to function. It's an
unfair hose. If you can show me an example of what you mean, which
does not involve cards which I and others consider to be unfair, then
I'll consider your points, otherwise, I'm afraid I can't respect your
opinion.
Alec Chang
te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) wrote:
> Y'know, the Sleeping mind combined with misdirection is something that
> all of us "old-timers" here(sorry, I'm being sarcastic, and some
> people might not get it) would call pretty darn broken. No untaps, no
> reactions, geeze, you just got yourself an ousted prey! How sweet.
> How bloody unfair.
Misdirection, in and of itself, is probably an overpowered card (and thereby
necessitated the somewhat overpowered Wake). But just to be accurate, a
Misdirection / Sleeping Mind combo does not prevent a Wake (which does not
untap the waking vampire, mind you) followed by a reaction of some sort
(such as Deflection). Sleeping Mind prevents block attempts.
---
Eric Pettersen
pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)
pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu.delete.this.unless.youre.a.junk.emailer (Eric Pettersen) writes:
>te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) wrote:> [ power of Sleeping Mind with Misdirection being too powerful
[ ability to still deflect described ]
You also have to remember that Misdirection requires you to still pay a pool
for each vampire you tap...and they can still deflect.
Mike
On 8 Jan 1997 04:26:35 GMT, mboh...@students.uiuc.edu (michael
charles bohlmann) wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Unfortunately, the problem still exists that if you have to be able to
deflect to deal with the sleeping mind/Misdirection, then there is
something wrong. There are two defenses against that combo(three if
you count DI)/Wake bleed bounce/cancellation, or Sudden Reversal.
I'm not saying I didn't like winning when I used it, but it's not
exactly fair, especially w/ only three ways to counter it, two
involving turmps, and one involving multiple cards in a strict order.
Alec Chang