Uriah Winter Q

I control Uriah Winter and John Paleologus (let's just say my predator kindly gave me Uriah previously in the game, to avoid grouping questions). I also control an Army of Rats. My predator ends his turn. I start mine with 1 pool, and my prey has 2 pool. So Uriah should be taken by my prey during my untap phase. During my untap phase, I decide to apply the Army of Rats and John's special ability before giving away Uriah. My prey is ousted. What happens to Uriah? (burns and returns to genuine controller's ash heap; removed from the game; stays under my control; is taken by my new prey; ..) Thanks, ~~ Army of Rats Cardtype: Action Discipline: Animalism +1 stealth action. [ani] Put this card in play. During your untap phase, your prey burns 1 pool. You may only burn 1 pool each turn with Army of Rats cards. Any minion can burn the Army of Rats as a (D) action. John Paleologus Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Tzimisce Group: 3 Capacity: 9 Discipline: pot ANI AUS CEL VIC Sabbat Archbishop of Istanbul: During your untap phase, if John is ready, he may burn 2 blood to cause your prey to burn 1 pool Uriah Winter Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Caitiff Group: 1 Capacity: 1 Discipline: for pot Camarilla: If your prey has more pool than you do at the beginning of your untap phase, he or she takes control of Uriah during your untap phase.

On Jul 2, 11:09 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: > I control Uriah Winter and John Paleologus (let's just say my predator > kindly gave me Uriah previously in the game, to avoid grouping > questions). > I also control an Army of Rats. > > My predator ends his turn. I start mine with 1 pool, and my prey has 2 > pool. > So Uriah should be taken by my prey during my untap phase. > > During my untap phase, I decide to apply the Army of Rats and John's > special ability before giving away Uriah. My prey is ousted. > > What happens to Uriah? (burns and returns to genuine controller's ash > heap; removed from the game; stays under my control; is taken by my > new prey; ..) Control is transfered to the ousted Methuselah, so Uriah leaves the game. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > floppyzedolfin wrote: >> I control Uriah Winter and John Paleologus (let's just say my >> predator kindly gave me Uriah previously in the game, to avoid >> grouping questions). >> I also control an Army of Rats. >> >> My predator ends his turn. I start mine with 1 pool, and my prey has >> 2 pool. >> So Uriah should be taken by my prey during my untap phase. >> >> During my untap phase, I decide to apply the Army of Rats and John's >> special ability before giving away Uriah. My prey is ousted. >> >> What happens to Uriah? (burns and returns to genuine controller's ash >> heap; removed from the game; stays under my control; is taken by my >> new prey; ..) > > Control is transfered to the ousted Methuselah, so Uriah leaves the > game. Why couldn't you just order all these "during untap" effects, so that PreyAlpha dies to AoR and John, and then you'd be able to "give" Uriah to PreyBeta? [ quoted text not captured ]

Because Uriah states "At the start of the untap phase". You can normally choose in which order you do certain things as long as they all go off at the same time. For instance Fame and Vessel. But in this case you have to apply Uriah's effect at the start before you can handle off the other effects.

[ quoted text not captured ] Not sure exactly which question you're replying to (please be kind, quote what you're answering!), but this is slightly wrong. The way the untap phase is structured, you do "checks" just before untapping everything, to record the state of things (Uriah, Bartholomew, Club Zombie, etc). Then you untap everything. Then you do the 'During your untap phase, do Y' effects in any order you want. If there's a mandatory effect, you just have to perform it before the phase ends. It is NOT parallel to mandatory Actions (hunting while empty, etc) that must be performed before other actions; that's something special about the minion phase.

On Jul 3, 6:23 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Aeschere is correct. The pool check effect ("Uriah's effect") happens at the start of the untap phase (card text), setting up an effect that must be handled during the untap phase.

"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> schreef in bericht news:i0n33h$nrs$1...@news.eternal-september.org... [ quoted text not captured ] Not sure what you're responding to, but that's not what he's saying. Certain things happen "at the start of your untap phase" while others happen "during your untap phase". Obviously the former events must be handled before the latter. Your examples both miss the mark as both Club Zombie and Bartholomew state "at the beginning of your TURN", not "at the beginning of your untap phase". Also, untapping your stuff happens "at the start of your untap phase" (as per rulebook), and it's actually the first thing that happens before you do anything else. You can't for example choose to handle Uriah's cardtext before untapping so she will be tapped when your prey takes control of her.

[ quoted text not captured ] Semantics, but this is exactly what I intended to say. I was just pointing out that Uriah's text requires things to happen at 2 different times during the untap phase: the "check" (which must happen along with other beginning-of-turn effects) and the "execute" (which can happen any time you want before you exit the untap phase).

So here is the untap phase: 1. Beginning: - My prey has more pool then me. 2. During: - Effect of Army of Rats. Prey loses one pool. - Effect of Paleologus. Prey loses two pool. - My prey is ousted. - I gain a VP and 6 pools. - Prey takes control over Uriah Let's see. At this point, my prey is my former grandprey. Doesn't he gets take control over Uriah? Is he still part of the play? How can an ousted player take control over a card? Is there a difference whether someone was ousted 10 seconds or an hour before? Does the effect of Uriah have a legal target at this point? Shouldn't the effect fizzle? Please clarify. thanks Jack

[ quoted text not captured ] You almost got it. This is how it goes: 1. Beginning: - My prey, [player X], has more pool then me. -> Uriah will, when his effect resolves, [switch to player X]. 2. During: - Effect of Army of Rats. Prey loses one pool. - Effect of Paleologus. Prey loses two pool. - My prey is ousted. - I gain a VP and 6 pool. - [Player X] takes control over Uriah -> since player X is no longer in the game, Uriah is removed from the game instead.

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. Uriah's test (which occurs at the start of the untap phase) adds the effect "Player X takes control of Uriah" to the "during this untap phase" window. > 2. During: > - Effect of Army of Rats. Prey loses one pool. > - Effect of Paleologus. Prey loses two pool. > - My prey is ousted. > - I gain a VP and 6 pool. > - [Player X] takes control over Uriah > -> since player X is no longer in the game, Uriah is removed from the > game instead. Correct.

On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 13:53:42 -0700 (PDT), LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > On Jul 3, 4:38 pm, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> You almost got it. This is how it goes: >> >> 1. Beginning: >> - My prey, [player X], has more pool then me. >> -> Uriah will, when his effect resolves, [switch to player X]. > > Correct. Uriah's test (which occurs at the start of the untap phase) > adds the effect > > "Player X takes control of Uriah" > > to the "during this untap phase" window. I control Uriah and have the same amount of pool as my prey at the start of my untap phase. If I also control a tapped infernal Baali, and spend a pool to untap dysquxtlplct during my untap phase, will transfer of Uriah trigger, or will I already be safe from it during the current untap phase? -- Regards, Daneel

On 4 jul, 11:00, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 13:53:42 -0700 (PDT), LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> [ quoted text not captured ] You are already save from it since the infernal cost has to be paid during your untap which is later then Uriah's "At the start of the untap phase".

On 3 juil, 14:29, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote: > "Jozxyqk" <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> schreef in berichtnews:i0n33h$nrs$1...@news.eternal-september.org... [ quoted text not captured ] Since there's nothing before your untap phase in your turn (we don't have "pre-untap phase" or "first-nameless-phase" in VTES), the beginning of your turn and the beginning of your untap phase are the same thing.

>Since there's nothing before your untap phase in your turn (we don't >have "pre-untap phase" or "first-nameless-phase" in VTES), the >beginning of your turn and the beginning of your untap phase are the >same thing. Except that stuff that needs to be checked at the start of your turn, is checked before your untap phase. Such as Bartholomew's special. If "the beginning of my untap phase" and "the beginning of my turn" would be exactly the same thing, I can choose to untap Bartholomew first, then check if he's untapped (Geez, surprise! He is!) and gain a pool. Clearly not legal, hence the differentiation between beginning of turn and beginning of untap phase.

On Jul 5, 9:11 am, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote: > >Since there's nothing before your untap phase in your turn (we don't > >have "pre-untap phase" or "first-nameless-phase" in VTES), the > >beginning of your turn and the beginning of your untap phase are the > >same thing. > > Except that stuff that needs to be checked at the start of your turn, is > checked before your untap phase. And before your turn. Your turn starts with your untap phase. There is no portion of your turn that occurs before the untap phase of that turn. The start of your turn = the start of your untap phase. > Such as Bartholomew's special. If "the beginning of my untap phase" and "the > beginning of my turn" would be exactly the same thing, I can choose to untap > Bartholomew first, then check if he's untapped (Geez, surprise! He is!) and > gain a pool. Once you untap Batholomew, you are no longer at the beginning of your untap phase. Your turn starts with your untap phase. Note any parts of game state that needs to be noted at the beginning of your untap phase/turn, then begin your turn by untapping all of your cards. When you do that, you are no longer at the beginning of your turn. Untapping your cards puts you in the "during your untap phase" time. So then you apply other "during your untap phase" effects, including those that were/are contingent on the state of the game at the start of your untap phase/turn.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schreef in bericht news:0ad474af-b9c0-47e8...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] >And before your turn. [ quoted text not captured ] From the rulebook (section 4) A) At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. You just said: B) The start of your turn = the start of your untap phase. Assuming that my English is somewhat right then "beginning of" and "start of" are exactly the same thing in this context. Thus, putting these together we get: Beginning of turn = beginning of untap phase. Therefore, Bartholomew's special and untapping my cards happen during the same time window. When different effects happen at the same time, I get to choose in which order to apply those effects (ie, Vessel and Fame). So exactly which part of the rules disallow me to first untap Barth and then check if he's untapped? I know it's not possible, but that's because I (wrongly) assumed you would first start your turn and check "start of turn" stuff before moving on to untap. I'd guess because I can't untap cards 1 by 1 but instead have to untap them all and when I've done so my 'beginning of untap phase' magically ends even though I haven't made all the neccesary checks yet. But if it that's the case, and I do control Uriah Winter and I do have less pool than my prey, I could just choose to untap my cards first, thereby magically ending the 'beginning of untap phase' and keep control of Uriah.

On Jul 5, 6:08 pm, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote: > "LSJ" <vtes...@white-wolf.com> schreef in berichtnews:0ad474af-b9c0-47e8...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... > >Once you untap Batholomew, you are no longer at the beginning of your > >untap phase. > >Your turn starts with your untap phase. > >Note any parts of game state that needs to be noted at the beginning > >of your untap phase/turn, then begin your turn by untapping all of > >your cards. > >When you do that, you are no longer at the beginning of your turn. > >Untapping your cards puts you in the "during your untap phase" time. > >So then you apply other "during your untap phase" effects, including > >those that were/are contingent on the state of the game at the start > >of your untap phase/turn. > > From the rulebook (section 4) > > A) At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. Yes. > You just said: > > B) The start of your turn = the start of your untap phase. Yes. > Assuming that my English is somewhat right then "beginning of" and "start > of" are exactly the same thing in this context. True. > Thus, putting these together we get: Beginning of turn = beginning of untap > phase. Yes. > Therefore, Bartholomew's special and untapping my cards happen during the > same time window. No. Bartholomew has an effect contingent on game state at the beginning of your turn (at the beginning of your untap phase), which is before you untap your cards. If you check to see if some condition had been true "at the start of your turn/untap phase", then that means your checking the game state as it was at that instance. Quite different than being allowed to perform some activity in a particular timing window (which, necessarily, means something other than "at an instant"). > When different effects happen at the same time, I get to > choose in which order to apply those effects (ie, Vessel and Fame). Except for "untap all your cards", which cannot be ordered after other effects, but instead must be the first thing you do in your untap phase. (The sentence in section 4 of the rulebook after the one you quoted above). > So > exactly which part of the rules disallow me to first untap Barth and then > check if he's untapped? His card text: "If Bartholomew is untapped at the beginning of your turn". (You might make a different case about ambiguity here -- this is checking his state at the beginning of you turn, not checking to see if he actually untaps at the beginning of your turn -- but the case you are making, that you can check game state after untapping because after untapping, you'd still somehow be in the "at the start of the phase/turn" window is not true -- you're checking game state as it was at the instant your turn/untap phase began.) > I know it's not possible, but that's because I > (wrongly) assumed you would first start your turn and check "start of turn" > stuff before moving on to untap. You check game state at the start, before doing stuff (and the first "stuff" you do is always "untap all your cards"). Or rather, you can check game state at any time (checking is not an effect), but the effects we're discussing all refer back to game state as it was "at the start of your turn/untap phase". > I'd guess because I can't untap cards 1 by 1 but instead have to untap them > all and when I've done so my 'beginning of untap phase' magically ends even > though I haven't made all the neccesary checks yet. There's no window to end. Game state at the start of your turn is simply the state of the game at the start of your turn. There aren't two different sets of game state at that instant (one in which you have not untapped your cards and one in which you have), there's just the one. > But if it that's the > case, and I do control Uriah Winter and I do have less pool than my prey, I > could just choose to untap my cards first, thereby magically ending the > 'beginning of untap phase' and keep control of Uriah. Hardly. Uriah moves "during" your untap phase (card text). Uriah's text also checks game state as it is at the beginning of your turn (card text).

LSJ wrote: > Bartholomew has an effect contingent on game state at the beginning > of your turn (at the beginning of your untap phase), which is before you > untap your cards. Would it be appropriate to add to the Rules Outline a III.A.0., then, for these kinds of "before you untap your cards" effects? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

On Jul 5, 8:18 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > Bartholomew has an effect contingent on game state at the beginning > > of your turn (at the beginning of your untap phase), which is before you > > untap your cards. > > Would it be appropriate to add to the Rules Outline a III.A.0., then, > for these kinds of "before you untap your cards" effects? No. Bartholomew's effect, the one that happens "during your untap phase", just so happens to be conditional on the game state at some earlier time (namely the game state at the start of the turn).