inportant announcement concerning the EC in Vienna

please pass this information to whoever might attend the ec. thanks pallando By special agreement with White Wolf cards from the Sabbat War set are allowed for the whole event (including constructed). Moreover every players is allowed to use 4 of his own blood dolls (must be vampire backed, no jyhad!!) during the draft rounds

In article <rGGN5.58648$Le2.2...@news.chello.at>, "pallando" <pall...@gmx.at> wrote: [snip] > Moreover every players is allowed to use 4 of his own blood dolls > (must be vampire backed, no jyhad!!) during the draft rounds This sounds more and more like an un-sanctioned event. What's the point of drafting if you don't have to worry about taking a Wake vs. a Blood Doll in your drafting pod? ---- From the VEKN Tourney Rules: 7.2.3. Card Use - Limited Tournaments All cards players use in Sealed-Deck events must be received directly from tournament officials. Players must receive the same number of decks and booster packs from the same card set(s) as all the other players participating in the tournament. Players may use only the actual cards they receive or draft at a Limited tournament, and any additional cards specifically provided by the tournament organizer. Players may not trade or replace the cards they receive or draft at a Limited tournament with any other cards, even if the replacement is an exact copy. If a card is damaged or otherwise considered "marked," players must comply with section 7.2.4 - Abnormal Decks, Boosters, and Cards ------ I believe the Judge can provide 4 blood dolls to each player. But I don't see anything in the rules that allows a player to add cards to a limited format deck. Note, "Players may use only the actual cards they receive or draft at a Limited tournament, and any additional cards specifically provided by the tournament organizer." Joe Churchill - V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> In article <rGGN5.58648$Le2.2...@news.chello.at>, > "pallando" <pall...@gmx.at> wrote: > > [snip] > > Moreover every players is allowed to use 4 of his own blood dolls > > (must be vampire backed, no jyhad!!) during the draft rounds > > This sounds more and more like an un-sanctioned event. > What's the point of drafting if you don't have to worry about taking a > Wake vs. a Blood Doll in your drafting pod? > first of all, there is neither a wake nor a blood doll in the sw boosters. this is part of the problem. in the last few days we tested sabat war thoroughly. we came to the conclusion that it is hardly playable in sealed deck and draft environment. this is due to several reasons: lack of library cards: each booster contains only 11 cards, 8 of which are library cards. to get a workable amount of cards you need at least 9 or 10 boosters. utter lack of blood support: apart from tribute to the master, secret horde and ventrue investment there is no master card based blood support. in other words, no way to get the blood back from high capacity vampires, no blood dolls, no minion taps. (i am aware of slave auction and powerbase: montreal, but those are rare and therefore cannot be taken into consideration) lack of vampires: in the boosters there are only 66 different vampires. those are generally of very high capacity. this leaves you with about 50 to 55 playable vampires in sealed or tournament play. now we were confronted with a problem: we have a draft tournament scheduled for november 25th. when we planned for this, no reliable information about sabbat war was available. in fact we did not know anything about sabbat war at all. apart from the fact is was to be released on october 31st. we took this decision to ensure a minimum amount of playability and fun. without this measure the whole draft tournament would have been dull und full of contesting. believe me, we tried it ourselves. i know that this idea is not perfect, but we thought it was the best we could do in the short period of time left to us. it makes the larger vampires playable as well and therefore enlarges the pool of playable vampires. [ quoted text not captured ] i'm aware of this. but the problem is, how should a judge or all of them provide people with 240+ blood dolls? do you have 100 spare one you are willing to donate? we could take all the blood dolls from the players, check them and hand them back to them again. i do not see a real difference there. aslo, if yo can come up with any good ideas that help us out, please tell us, send me an e-mail. it will be very much appreciated. but only telling us that this event might not be sanctioned doesn't really help us out. to be honest, i expected something like your answer to my post and therefore took a lot of time to explain our point of view. for me the event has to be something special. fun and playability imho are more important than being sanctioned. we do a lot to create a good atmosphere. a lot of larp players will be involved to do this, and we will put considerable effort into decoration and presentation. do not forget that this event will for sure attract a lot of attention to ww and its product. the last thing we want to have is a horde of completely bored and frustrated players sitting there on display. we have people coming here from as far as england and spain, and what i hear most probably the usa and australia. i guess they care a lot more about experiencing something unique and exciting, rather than a sanctioned event. it has to worth the trip. if it still can be sanctioned, all the better. pallando

On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 04:56:29 GMT, Joe C. wrote: >I believe the Judge can provide 4 blood dolls to each player. But I >don't see anything in the rules that allows a player to add cards to a >limited format deck. Note, "Players may use only the actual cards they >receive or draft at a Limited tournament, and any additional cards >specifically provided by the tournament organizer." The letter of the law can be satisfied by a little ceremony in which each player gives 4 Blood Dolls to the Judge and the Judge then gives them back to him. Andrew

a...@csi.com wrote: > On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 04:56:29 GMT, Joe C. wrote: > > >I believe the Judge can provide 4 blood dolls to each player. But I > >don't see anything in the rules that allows a player to add cards to a > >limited format deck. Note, "Players may use only the actual cards they > >receive or draft at a Limited tournament, and any additional cards > >specifically provided by the tournament organizer." > > The letter of the law can be satisfied by a little ceremony in which > each player gives 4 Blood Dolls to the Judge and the Judge then gives > them back to him. Yes. And the tournament organizer would then be obliged to provide 4 Blood Dolls to any player who failed to bring her own, as well. You cannot provide cards to a subset of the players. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <98ON5.62025$Le2.3...@news.chello.at>, "pallando" <pall...@gmx.at> wrote: > > In article <rGGN5.58648$Le2.2...@news.chello.at>, > > "pallando" <pall...@gmx.at> wrote: > > [snip] > first of all, there is neither a wake nor a blood doll in the sw > boosters. this is part of the problem. It's not a problem, it's part of the challenge. Also, Forced Awakening is in there. > in the last few days we tested sabat war thoroughly. we came to the > conclusion that it is hardly playable in sealed deck and draft > environment. this is due to several reasons: > > lack of library cards: each booster contains only 11 cards, 8 of > which are library cards. to get a workable amount of cards you need > at least 9 or 10 boosters. Try 11 packs 112 Cards. 4 old Sabbat packs 112 cards. I think four was the number of Sabbat we were using for draft. > utter lack of blood support: apart from tribute to the master, secret > horde and ventrue investment there is no master card based blood > support. in other words, no way to get the blood back from high > capacity vampires, no blood dolls, no minion taps. (i am aware of > slave auction and powerbase: montreal, but those are rare and > therefore cannot be taken into consideration) So there's one less master phase pool gain card than before. You gain 6 pool for an oust how much more pool gain do you need? :) Other cards the gain you some pool Kindred Spirits, Social Charm, Scouting mission, Political Strangehold, Bribes, Art Scam, Recruiting party, and PB Mexico City are in the boosters. How much more pool gain do you need? > lack of vampires: in the boosters there are only 66 different > vampires. those are generally of very high capacity. this leaves you > with about 50 to 55 playable vampires in sealed or tournament play. All 66 vamps are playble. > willing to donate? we could take all the blood dolls from the > players, check them and hand them back to them again. You can take them. Then distibute them back to the players with their booster packs. Note the backs of V:TES Blood Dolls will look different from Sabbat Wars cards as the V:TES version will have TM on the Deckmaster logo and SW will have (R) on the deckmaster. > for me the event has to be something special. fun and playability > imho are more important than being sanctioned. we do a lot to create > a good atmosphere. These are all needed. I wish you best of luck, Joe C. - V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:13:23 GMT, LSJ wrote: >Yes. And the tournament organizer would then be obliged to provide >4 Blood Dolls to any player who failed to bring her own, as well. > >You cannot provide cards to a subset of the players. It reminds me of the way that a pool of lands was used in certain Magic events. There was a certain amount of fudging there - turning one land into another by means of a magic marker. There's nothing to stop the TO creating as many proxies as he likes, is there? I've only done one VTES draft myself but I noticed that the appearance of a Blood Doll always caused a stir and they were snapped up immediately. It seems to me that master cards like this will skew a draft event and even giving each player a guaranteed four isn't enough to avoid this being a lottery. As Magic players grumble about being mana-screwed, players would be even more likely to grumble about being doll-screwed; there only being 4/90 dolls vs 20/60 lands. Another option is just to give everyone more starting blood. It's always seemed odd to me that you don't get enough blood to bring out more than 2 or 3 middling vampires. Andrew

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Andrew S. Davidson wrote: > Another option is just to give everyone more starting blood. It's > always seemed odd to me that you don't get enough blood to bring out > more than 2 or 3 middling vampires. In a constructed environment (rather than draft), extra blood panders greatly towards weenie decks, which can get out a lot more minions. This way you need some form of consistent blood gain, be it in the form of votes, masters or whatever. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "Steve: Yeah, well that's one of the advantages of being a sad, lonely fairy, I guess. You get to learn how to be a spy." - Stephen Fry, Making History

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:29:18 +0000, James Coupe wrote: >> Another option is just to give everyone more starting blood. It's >> always seemed odd to me that you don't get enough blood to bring out >> more than 2 or 3 middling vampires. > >In a constructed environment (rather than draft), extra blood panders >greatly towards weenie decks, which can get out a lot more minions. > >This way you need some form of consistent blood gain, be it in the form of >votes, masters or whatever. I don't understand your point. The bottleneck at first is the 4 transfer limit. The total blood available only becomes a constraint in the middle game. Extra blood from master cards would be equivalent to having extra blood at the start - I don't see the difference as between weenie vs elder vampires. However it seems to me that Blood Dolls provide a bias in favour of weenie decks as you can dedicate some weenies to hunting/blood dolling. It's Minion Taps that favour the large vampires and so it's odd that the Austrians are using one rather than the other to encourage play of high capacity vampires. Andrew

On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:38:41 +0000, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:29:18 +0000, James Coupe wrote: > >>> Another option is just to give everyone more starting blood. It's >>> always seemed odd to me that you don't get enough blood to bring out >>> more than 2 or 3 middling vampires. >> >>In a constructed environment (rather than draft), extra blood panders >>greatly towards weenie decks, which can get out a lot more minions. > >I don't understand your point. The bottleneck at first is the 4 >transfer limit. The total blood available only becomes a constraint >in the middle game. Extra blood from master cards would be equivalent >to having extra blood at the start - I don't see the difference as >between weenie vs elder vampires. With enough Effective Managements, a large starting blood pool will provide you at -least- one vampire a turn for 6 turns, and the extra actions really start to add up, since in those same 6 turns, you can only get two 10-caps. Keep in mind also that frequently you can get more than 1 minion a turn, so you get your whole opening crypt out by the end of turn 2, and then get 1 minion a turn via Effective Management and transfers after that. It gets very nasty, especially if those vampires don't need to be turned into Blood Dolls. >However it seems to me that Blood Dolls provide a bias in favour of >weenie decks as you can dedicate some weenies to hunting/blood >dolling. It's Minion Taps that favour the large vampires and so it's >odd that the Austrians are using one rather than the other to >encourage play of high capacity vampires. Actually, I often play with Blood Dolls on large-capacity vampires. It provides for fairly consistent extended blood return, while a Minion Tap is a one-shot wonder and a great Sudden Reversal target. It also saves one from the tragedy of Minion Tapping some 10-cap down to 2 and discovering that the little Giovanni deck behind you is based on Bum's Rush, IG, Pushing the Limit, Amaranth, and Soul Stealing. Plus, a lot of big vamps have Fortitude, so you can throw in the occasional Restoration action without worrying about having to slow down your blood gain any, since they have lots of blood to spare while you're waiting for the Restorations to show up. However, if you're more worried about the blood on the vamp than you are about the vampire, Minion Tap is the way to go. If I have big guys out, I usually want to use the blood on them for high-cost annoying actions while having the option to grab some back as need be, so I tend to lean towards Blood Dolls. But when I just want a big guy out there for his title or special or something, it's Minion Tap all the way. :) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

> I don't understand your point. The bottleneck at first is the 4 > transfer limit. The total blood available only becomes a constraint > in the middle game. Extra blood from master cards would be equivalent > to having extra blood at the start - I don't see the difference as > between weenie vs elder vampires. > A blood doll gives you blood slowly enought that getting out a bigger vamp while keeping out of your personal 'danger zone' is unlikely, I can get out two fours mentally much easier than an eight. > However it seems to me that Blood Dolls provide a bias in favour of > weenie decks as you can dedicate some weenies to hunting/blood > dolling. It's Minion Taps that favour the large vampires and so it's > odd that the Austrians are using one rather than the other to > encourage play of high capacity vampires. But in SW there isn't a 5th tradition, in a draft setting moving all the blood off of a vampire is silly, because you can't rely on getting a card to fill it back up. Blood doll takes longer, but the vampire could hunt immediatly to recoup the blood. plus, minion taps (IMHO) aren't as good in conbat or bleed decks, which is a big chunk of SW. Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

<big snip> > for me the event has to be something special. fun and playability imho are > more important than being sanctioned. we do a lot to create a good > atmosphere. a lot of larp players will be involved to do this, and we will > put considerable effort into decoration and presentation. do not forget that > this event will for sure attract a lot of attention to ww and its product. > the last thing we want to have is a horde of completely bored and frustrated > players sitting there on display. > > we have people coming here from as far as england and spain, and what i hear > most probably the usa and australia. i guess they care a lot more about > experiencing something unique and exciting, rather than a sanctioned event. > it has to worth the trip. if it still can be sanctioned, all the better. > > Although I see you points it is IMHO a step into the worng direction to bend the rules to make the game more "easily enjoyable". At the end of the day booster draft is a format that encourages different playing strategies. And the field is level - if nobody has blood dolls or wakeys, nobody will have an advantage. It's just that certain toolbox strategies for constructed decks won't work in Sabbat War draft - I fail to see how this is a bad thing, especially if this is the European Championship, where the best and most versatile player is crowned. On the point of big vampires and contesting: Sure, the 6 cap with all superior disciplines will be favourites, but in a draft environment this should be taken into consideration. One might go for some odder vampires and avoid contestation, or just hope for luck. It's all the same for everyone... IMHO the whole Blood Doll vs. Minion Tap debate further down the threat misses one important factor: This is a limited format. Sabbat introduced an alternative blood gain mechanism via Tribute, Blood Feast or superior Media Influence. Admittedly it never gained much ground because time has proven that the "old ways" (i.e. MT/Fifth Tradition) are better, but again: This is a limited format that should bring less effective and more obscure tactics into play. The lack of blood dolls and wakes in SW boosters is a severe challenge, because the players really need to think about what strategies are viable at all. But I don't think that games will be boring just because of this. If there are enough boosters to draft from, so everybody can build a 12 vampire / 50 library deck without including too many obvious discards, it should be an interesting competition - with or without blood dolls. No reliable blood gain for everyone should make the games faster, and the four blood dolls for everyone will not change one basic fact about drafted decks: They tend to suck anyway - at least compared to constructed decks. If you don't like think about the situation (cards that are available, strategies that are possible) before the tournament, to improvise during the game and loose badly because your deck proves to be the pile of shit you thought it would be after you drafted, then no blood doll on earth will make you win, and the lack of generic blood gain will cut the games shorter so you can look forward to different challenges or fun pick up games. Just my opinion of course, and despite the criticism a big cheers to Carl and everybody else in Vienna for making this EC happen - too bad I can't attend. Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." [ quoted text not captured ]