Justicar Retribution - LSJ contradiction

In one thread, someone asked: "1) I have Constanza Vinti in play. My prey has Ventrue in play and passes Justicar Retribution. Does Constanza burn? According to the ruling, yes, but I just wanted confirmation." LSJ confirmed that Costanza is burned in such situation. (http://groups.google.com.br/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/d23e21c1bcb43e7a/e85496d6cd266e79?q=justicar+retribution&rnum=1#e85496d6cd266e79) In another thread, also about Justicar Retribution, another person asked: "What about conditional bleed bonuses? Would Queen Anne be burned if her prey had a ready Tremere? According to Errata, this bonus is actually dependent on whether the Methuselah she bleeds has a ready Tremere, so her "current bleed" is dependent on which Methuselah she chooses to bleed. Still, would she be burned if ALL other methuselahs had a ready Tremere?" LSJ answered: "According to errata, she only gets her bonus when "the Methuselah she bleeds controls a ..." [RTR 960530] So, when she's not bleeding, the bonus doesn't apply." (http://groups.google.com.br/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/7f38d15b5e81de05/f1f5fb2ffb42fc12?q=justicar+retribution&rnum=2#f1f5fb2ffb42fc12) I understand that this second answer implies that when Queen Anne is not bleeding, her current bleed is 1 (because the bonus doesn´t apply). Yet, it has been said that Costanza is burned in a Justicar Retribution referendum if her controller´s prey has a ready ventrue, thus, the referendum treats her as if having a current bleed of 3 or more, even thought she´s not bleeding at the time of the referendum. Both Costanza´s and Queen Anne´s increased bleed are conditional (and Cornelius Otavius´ too), but the answers are different, so I´d like to know which case is correct... do they burn or not? Thanks for the help!

Pedro Coelho wrote: > LSJ answered: "According to errata, she only gets her bonus when "the > Methuselah > she bleeds controls a ..." [RTR 960530] So, when she's not bleeding, > the bonus doesn't apply." > > (http://groups.google.com.br/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/7f38d15b5e81de05/f1f5fb2ffb42fc12?q=justicar+retribution&rnum=2#f1f5fb2ffb42fc12) > > Both Costanza´s and Queen Anne´s increased bleed are conditional (and > Cornelius Otavius´ too), but the answers are different, so I´d like > to know which case is correct... do they burn or not? They would burn - note the 'RTR 960530'? That was a ruling from the rules team in May 1996, in a post you reference which LSJ made in 1998. The post about Costanza is much more recent one (2003); I'd assume that that ruling is currently valid and the one that was mentioned almost 8 years ago has since been corrected and/or made no longer valid. > Thanks for the help! -John Flournoy

John Flournoy wrote: > > Both Costanza´s and Queen Anne´s increased bleed are conditional (and > > Cornelius Otavius´ too), but the answers are different, so I´d like > > to know which case is correct... do they burn or not? > > They would burn - note the 'RTR 960530'? That was a ruling from the > rules team in May 1996, in a post you reference which LSJ made in 1998. > > The post about Costanza is much more recent one (2003); I'd assume that > that ruling is currently valid and the one that was mentioned almost 8 > years ago has since been corrected and/or made no longer valid. Hmm. A question came up last week on The Path of Blood about whether or not a vampire with +bleed can be Masked. When I searched the newsgroup for a ruling on it, I came up with this as the most recent: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/24e302d0dbc8dbc0/ed8828f9050bdcc1?q=mask+bleed+author%3Alsj&rnum=6#ed8828f9050bdcc1 If that is the most recent, and if John Flournoy is correct in the post above, isn't there a discrepancy here? It would seem that both rulings couldn't be correct simultaneously, and the ruling I linked above is newer than the one positing that Constanza would burn. John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] Justicar Retribution checks the bleed amount the minion would have when bleeding his or her prey with a successful default bleed action. Mask checks whether effects have been applied. No inconsistency -- they just check different things. -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Justicar Retribution checks the bleed amount the minion would have > when bleeding his or her prey with a successful default bleed action. > > Mask checks whether effects have been applied. > > No inconsistency -- they just check different things. Gotcha. Thanks, LSJ. John Eno