One last question about GROUPS

Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt with NO GROUP RULES. Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the 愎layers to use the group rule. so this can help a lot. Lucas Linard Prince of Fortaleza

Lucas Linard wrote: > Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt > with NO GROUP RULES. > Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the ´players to use the > group rule. so this can help a lot. I think most of the examples are hypothetical. How about this? 12x unique 3-cap dom obf vampires If we had enough Sets and Groups, it could happen. Or, how about 4x DOM obf vampires, 4x dom OBF vampires and 4x dom obf vampires? Jeff

"Lucas Linard" <lucas...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:2f1a2f3f.0503...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Searching on obf-dom-pre in groups 2 & 4 in FELDB gives this result: Robin Withers 4 dom obf pre Ventrue 4 Maureen, Dark Priestess 6 dom obf DAI PRE Baali 1 vote 4 Amenophobis 7 dom pre OBF SER Followers of Set Primogen 4 Neferu 9 dom nec OBF PRE SER THA Followers of Set 2 votes 4 Count Ormonde 5 dom pre ser OBF Followers of Set 2 Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakech 8 dom obf pre SER Followers of Set 2 votes 2 Khay`tall, Snake of Eden 9 aus DOM OBF PRE SER Followers of Set 2 Nefertiti 10 cel pot DOM OBF PRE SER Followers of Set 2 Kemintiri (ADV) 10 aus dom OBF PRE SER THA Followers of Set 3 votes 2 Kemintiri 10 aus dom OBF PRE SER THA Followers of Set 2 Queen Anne 10 aus obf DOM FOR PRE Ventrue Prince 2 Huitzilopochtli 10 AUS DAI DOM OBF PRE POT Baali 2 Cailean 10 dom ANI OBF POT PRE Nosferatu Antitribu Archbishop 2 Leandro 11 cel dom AUS OBF PRE Malkavian Inner Circle 2 Arika 11 aus cel DOM FOR OBF PRE Ventrue Inner Circle 2 Giving Arika, Leandro, Cailean, et al. the support of Robin & Maureen is pretty broken. :) Putting Amenophobis & Neferu into the G2 Setite mix is just as bad, I suppose. - Pat

"Lucas Linard" <lucas...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:2f1a2f3f.0503...@posting.google.com... > Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt > with NO GROUP RULES. > Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the 愎layers to use the > group rule. so this can help a lot. Tell them that this criteria for convincing them to use the grouping rule is cracked: there may not be a strickly "broken" crypt at present. But that shouldn't matter. The game is presumedly "balanced" to use it - meaning that the cards are designed in such a way as to make the game more challenging and interesting if all of its intended rules are used. For instance - can anyone demonstrate how that game is "broken" if: - you gave *2* pool rather than only 1 pool for beginning your untap phase with the edge? - a vote card was worth *2* votes rather than only 1 vote? - every turn, each player received *2* discard phase actions rather than 1? - etc. The point is, the game is intended to be played using those rules. If you're not using all the rules, you're playing a variant of the game. If that's what you want to do, fine. But why not use the real rules? That way, you can practice for tournaments and such and use the same decks and everything. Fred

Lucas Linard wrote: > Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt > with NO GROUP RULES. > Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the 愎layers to use the > group rule. so this can help a lot. Well, the easy way to convince people to use the group rule is by saying "Hey--look at that in the rulebook! There is a group rule!" It is going to be difficult to post a "broken" crypt, 'cause that isn't how crypts work, really. But the end result is that there are supposed to be limits in crypt building, and the limits were maintained originally by controling how many vampires were in circulation. When they decided to make a new base set, their choices were: A) Throw the limits to crypt building out the window. B) Not make new vampires. C) Invent a crypt group rule. A wasn't really palatable. B limits marketability. C makes everything work just fine, assuming you aren't all hung up on not liking a group rule. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

"Lucas Linard" <lucas...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:2f1a2f3f.0503...@posting.google.com... > Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt > with NO GROUP RULES. > Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the 愎layers to use the > group rule. so this can help a lot. Here is a deck that is pretty powerful if you are ignoring the grouping rules. Deck Name : Ventrue Broken Author : Norman S. Brown Jr Description : Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 1 max: 4 average: 3.17 ------------------------------------------------------------ 1x Courtland Leighton 4 dom for pre Ventrue:1 1x Earl 4 dom for pot Ventrue:3 1x Elena Gutierrez 4 aus dom pre Ventrue:3 1x Robin Withers 4 dom obf pre Ventrue:4 1x Violette Prentiss 4 PRE dom Ventrue:1 1x Diana Vick 3 dom pre Ventrue:3 1x Gideon Fontaine 3 PRE Ventrue:1 1x Itzahk Levine 3 cel pre Ventrue:2 1x Lana Butcher 3 dom for Ventrue:3 1x Roland Loussarian 3 for pre Ventrue:1 1x Rufina Soledad 2 for Ventrue:1 1x Antoinette DuChamp 1 cel pre Caitiff:2 Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (17 cards) 5 Blood Doll 4 Hostile Takeover 6 Presence 1 Ventrue Directorate Assembly 1 Ventrue Headquarters Action Modifier (24 cards) 4 Awe 10 Bewitching Oration 10 Voter Captivation Political Action (26 cards) 4 Consanguineous Boon 14 Kine Resources Contested 1 Peace Treaty 1 Praxis Seizure: Amsterdam 1 Praxis Seizure: Athens 1 Praxis Seizure: Atlanta 1 Praxis Seizure: Barcelona 1 Praxis Seizure: Berlin 1 Sabbat Threat 1 Ventrue Justicar Reaction (16 cards) 8 Deflection 8 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (7 cards) 7 Majesty This deck is amazingly fast. Overwhelms its prey by force of numbers and has been shown to be able to out action a intercept wall predator and a casual vote prey (using 2nds). It cycles very fast. Eliminating any one or two vampires doesn't slow it down at all. Discarding excess Masters is a nessasary evil, but you do get to choose the proper master to play each Master Phase. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Whilst not strictly broken, Mata Hari and Ian Forestal in the same deck would give the option of playing (I believe) any single card in the entire game. Whilst some would be a touch useless (The !Brujah with ths weapon, etc) once in play, you would have those options. Admittedly the decks would probably be quite wacky, but could be quite interesting. Brian in our playgroup was actually waiting on Advanced Ian Forestal Ian Forestal Adv !Tremere 8 cap Anarch May play any non-discipline based cards as though he meets the requirements of that card. [merge] May play any disciplines as though he had the superior level of that discipline. Mata Hari gives you the first option, but doesn't allow a broken combo by the fact she is G4. Now of course Sealed Deck !Tre starter and 4 KMW boosters... :) Andy VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge

Slytherin wrote: > Whilst not strictly broken, Mata Hari and Ian Forestal in the same deck > would give the option of playing (I believe) any single card in the > entire game. Except cards that require titles or Black Hand. --Colin McGuigan

"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:mNWdnSrBI9U...@speakeasy.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, specific titles, yeah. Mata meets the generic "titled" requirement. Or Seraph, Anarch, Flight, capacity less than 7 (Atonement, Thin-Blooded Seer), or "same circle". (or Priority Shift or Red List or Trumped-Up Charges, due to the particular combination of requirements) -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (Remove spam trap to reply). V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Lucas Linard wrote: > Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt > with NO GROUP RULES. > Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the 愎layers to use the > group rule. so this can help a lot. The best groups for dom/obf at 5 capacity or lower is 2 and 3 with 8 unique vampires. If you ignore grouping rules, you can build a crypt of 14 unique vampires with at least dom and obf at 5 capacity or lower. Add DOM masters and Governs. Bring them all out. Ignoring groups, this deck would probably get better as more vampires are printed. With the grouping rules in place, you'll probably never get more than 8 unique vampires for such a crypt. I'm not sure how abusive it would really be, but I'm pretty sure that Mustafa, the Heir wasn't designed to go in a crypt with the group 1 Ventrue law firm. How's this for a crypt? Mustafa, The Heir dom FOR PRE Prince Rake PRE Prince Mukhtar Bey FOR PRE Prince Sir Walter Nash DOM FOR PRE Prince Timothy Crowley dom FOR PRE Prince Anson dom PRE Prince Emerson Bridges DOM FOR PRE Prince Fleurdumal PRE Prince Giangaleazzo dom PRE Prince Victorine Lafourcade DOM FOR PRE Prince That's ten vampires. The other two could be Arika and Democritus, a couple of weenies, princes with inferior presence (Ira Rivers and Quentin King III) or whatever else you think might work. I think dem/obf is another combo that has a potential to become broken as more vampires are printed, but there's no dementation in group 1 and not much in the way of weenie dem in group 4. Lastly, if you ignore grouping rules, you can build entire crypts of vampires from Camarilla clans (and Gangrel) at capacity 4 and below. Brujah have 8 unique vampires capacity 4 or below in groups 1 and 2 and 13 unique vampires capacity 4 or below overall. Malkavians have 8 unique vampires at capacity 4 or lower in groups 1 and 2 and 12 unique vampires capacity 4 or below overall. You can look up the rest yourself. The benefit to a clan-based weenie vote deck is obvious. Matt Morgan

LSJ wrote: > "Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:mNWdnSrBI9U...@speakeasy.net... > >>Slytherin wrote: >> >>>Whilst not strictly broken, Mata Hari and Ian Forestal in the same deck >>>would give the option of playing (I believe) any single card in the >>>entire game. >> >>Except cards that require titles or Black Hand. > > > Well, specific titles, yeah. Mata meets the generic "titled" requirement. > > Or Seraph, Anarch, Flight, capacity less than 7 (Atonement, > Thin-Blooded Seer), or "same circle". > > (or Priority Shift or Red List or Trumped-Up Charges, due to the > particular combination of requirements) Also the many "requires an infernal vampire" cards. Oh, and "Becoming of Ennoia". =P --Colin McGuigan

"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:OuCdnTwF7op...@speakeasy.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Each of which has a non-infernal outferior, so Ian could still play the "card". > Oh, and "Becoming of Ennoia". =P Oh yeah, the "requires other stuff in play" cards. Good catch. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > "Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:OuCdnTwF7op...@speakeasy.net... >>Also the many "requires an infernal vampire" cards. > > Each of which has a non-infernal outferior, so Ian could still > play the "card". Contagion. Ok, so one, not many, but still... --Colin McGuigan

Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Lucas Linard wrote: > > > Hi, Can anyone who reads this post one example of a "broken" crypt > > with NO GROUP RULES. > > Here in Fortaleza we're trying to convince the ´players to use the > > group rule. so this can help a lot. > > You can look up the rest yourself. The benefit to a clan-based weenie > vote deck is obvious. Similarly, a deck built roughly as follows is very harsh: 12 Smallest nosferatu. 15 Kindred Intelligence 15 Computer Hacking 15 (assorted [obf] +1 Stealth cards) 5 Psychic Veil 5 Tribute to the Master 2 Secret Library of Alexandria 3 Destructive Secrets. Banzai! With the grouping rule, you cannot make '12 smallest nosferatu' all unique without including a 6-cap and a couple of 5's, or having to include vampires from another clan. Without the grouping rule, this crypt only has 3 vampires that are 4-cap; the other 9 are 2-or-3-caps only. Which is a HUGE difference to how fast such a deck as this can get rolling. > Matt Morgan -John Flournoy