This is one of the two mutually exclusive Spanish Continental
Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
A player who participates in one of them will not be allowed to
participate in the other.
TOURNAMENT INFORMATION
Spanish Continental Qualifier: Palma de Mallorca 2007
========================================
Date: 19th of May 2007 (Saturday)
Format: Constructed
# of rounds: 3+F
Time limit per round: 2 hours
Location: Casal de Barri Son Gotleu (C. José de Diego, 4)
City: Palma de Mallorca
Organizer: Hispanic Conclave (Spanish VTES Association)
Sponsor: Palma de Mallorca City Council
Head Judge: Ginés Quiñonero
Entry fee: 10 euros (provisional). Free for the members of the
Hispanic Conclave.
For further information about the event, drop me an email:
damnansvtes(at)ono(dot)com
See you there!
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnanshttp://www.vtes.nethttp://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
Damnans wrote:
> This is one of the two mutually exclusive Spanish Continental
> Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
Oops! The title of this message should read "Spanish Continental
QUALIFIER" (not Championship) :-)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote:
> This is one of the two mutually exclusive Spanish Continental
> Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
>
> A player who participates in one of them will not be allowed
> to participate in the other.
Is this even legal, to exclude players from playing in multiple
qualifiers? There is nothing in [VEKN 1.1] that would allow this.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
On 23 feb, 21:34, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
it's illegal to hold multiple qualifiers. ergo it's really secretly
just one qualifier, in two locations -> mutually exclusive.
[ quoted text not captured ]
There is nothing that makes multiple qualifiers "illegal", as you say, but
there *is* something [VEKN 1.1] that makes it illegal to disallow players
to play in multiple qualifiers. You can't even have WW "say" that this is
legal, since it is illegal on its face.
I only bring this up because it could cause some trouble if a player
showed up to each qualifier and was illegally told they couldn't play in
one.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Feb 23, 9:34 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
> > This is one of the two mutually exclusive Spanish Continental
> > Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
>
> > A player who participates in one of them will not be allowed
> > to participate in the other.
>
> Is this even legal, to exclude players from playing in multiple
> qualifiers? There is nothing in [VEKN 1.1] that would allow this.
It's legal.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Kevin M. schrieb:
> Bram Vink <jja....@hccnet.nl> wrote:>> On 23 feb, 21:34, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:>>> Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:>>>> This is one of the two mutually exclusive Spanish Continental
>>>> Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
>>>> A player who participates in one of them will not be allowed
>>>> to participate in the other.>>> Is this even legal, to exclude players from playing in multiple
>>> qualifiers? There is nothing in [VEKN 1.1] that would allow this.
>>>
>>> Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
>>> "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
>>> you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
>>> "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier>> it's illegal to hold multiple qualifiers. ergo it's really secretly
>> just one qualifier, in two locations -> mutually exclusive.>
> There is nothing that makes multiple qualifiers "illegal", as you say, but
> there *is* something [VEKN 1.1] that makes it illegal to disallow players
> to play in multiple qualifiers. You can't even have WW "say" that this is
> legal, since it is illegal on its face.
>
> I only bring this up because it could cause some trouble if a player> showed upb to each qualifier and was illegally told they couldn't play in
> one.
We have established a "rule" in Europe that each country does only have
one qualifier. If they want to do two they can (the rule was extended
for really big countries, in terms of distance, as spain), BUT the
people can only play in one. So you don´t have 20 qualifiers in your
city until everybody is qualified.
Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects you
just don´t let him play. The situation is made very obvious to everyone
and if somebody deliberately wants to make trouble than you still have
the right to remove him from the location as the organizer.
Thank you for bringing it up though, perhaps someone wants to put this
de-facto rule in some paragraph in the VEKN rules.
--
johannes walch
Johannes Walch <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote in
news:ert04u$jqu$1...@news01.versatel.de:
> We have established a "rule" in Europe that each country does only
> have one qualifier. If they want to do two they can (the rule was
> extended for really big countries, in terms of distance, as spain),
> BUT the people can only play in one. So you don´t have 20 qualifiers
> in your city until everybody is qualified.
>
> Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
> means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
> objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects
> you just don´t let him play. The situation is made very obvious to
> everyone and if somebody deliberately wants to make trouble than you
> still have the right to remove him from the location as the organizer.
>
> Thank you for bringing it up though, perhaps someone wants to put this
> de-facto rule in some paragraph in the VEKN rules.
>
A quick question Johannes, out of curiousity...
Are players who already played in a qualifier within their country allowed
to participate in another, as a non-qualifying participant?
DZ
AW
On Feb 26, 9:25 pm, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote innews:ert04u$jqu$1...@news01.versatel.de:[ quoted text not captured ]
No, at least in Spain. The reasoning behind this is that those two
qualifiers are in fact the "same tournament" (split in two separate
tournaments).
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Feb 25, 3:47 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:
> We have established a "rule" in Europe that each country does only have
> one qualifier. If they want to do two they can (the rule was extended
> for really big countries, in terms of distance, as spain)
Heh. :)
(yes, i know, difference in perception, and the system in place is a
good and necessary one, and European country qualifiers are a lot like
US regional ones. Still, I'm amused.)
> johannes walch
-John Flournoy
Damnans schrieb:
>> Are players who already played in a qualifier within their country allowed
>> to participate in another, as a non-qualifying participant?>
> No, at least in Spain. The reasoning behind this is that those two
> qualifiers are in fact the "same tournament" (split in two separate
> tournaments).
Yeah that would be my argument as well.
Johannes
On Feb 25, 4:47 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:
> > I only bring this up because it could cause some trouble if a player
> > showed upb to each qualifier and was illegally told they couldn't play in
> > one.
>
> We have established a "rule" in Europe that each country does only have
> one qualifier. If they want to do two they can (the rule was extended
> for really big countries, in terms of distance, as spain), BUT the
> people can only play in one. So you don´t have 20 qualifiers in your
> city until everybody is qualified.
>
> Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
> means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
> objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects you
> just don´t let him play.
Exquise me? If someone objects to the Tournament Organizer's cheating,
you eject them?
> The situation is made very obvious to everyone
> and if somebody deliberately wants to make trouble than you still have
> the right to remove him from the location as the organizer.
>
> Thank you for bringing it up though, perhaps someone wants to put this
> de-facto rule in some paragraph in the VEKN rules.
Or remove it, given its illegality.
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
On Feb 27, 7:37 pm, "gpettig...@gmail.com" <gpettig...@gmail.com>
wrote:
[...]
> > Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
> > means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
> > objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects you
> > just don´t let him play.
>
> Exquise me? If someone objects to the Tournament Organizer's cheating,
> you eject them?
Define "cheating".
> > The situation is made very obvious to everyone
> > and if somebody deliberately wants to make trouble than you still have
> > the right to remove him from the location as the organizer.
>
> > Thank you for bringing it up though, perhaps someone wants to put this
> > de-facto rule in some paragraph in the VEKN rules.
>
> Or remove it, given its illegality.
It is legal, since we reached an agreement with White Wolf on the
issue a couple of years ago.
[ quoted text not captured ]
gpett...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 25, 4:47 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:>>> I only bring this up because it could cause some trouble if a player
>>> showed upb to each qualifier and was illegally told they couldn't play in
>>> one.>> We have established a "rule" in Europe that each country does only have
>> one qualifier. If they want to do two they can (the rule was extended
>> for really big countries, in terms of distance, as spain), BUT the
>> people can only play in one. So you don´t have 20 qualifiers in your
>> city until everybody is qualified.
>>
>> Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
>> means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
>> objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects you
>> just don´t let him play.>
> Exquise me? If someone objects to the Tournament Organizer's cheating,
> you eject them?
0) Calm down.
1) The organizer is not cheating.
2) All Continental Qualifiers anywhere must be approved by White Wolf. If White
Wolf approves only one per country in Europe, then there you go.
3) Recently, in coordination with the local princes, WW has approved more than
one qualifier in a given European country, and WW and the organizer(s) of those
qualifiers have also agreed to certain restrictions, as allowed in the V:EKN
rules (VEKN 1.1; and, if 1.1. doesn't do it for you, there's always 1.7).
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Feb 27, 1:48 pm, "Damnans" <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 7:37 pm, "gpettig...@gmail.com" <gpettig...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > > Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
> > > means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
> > > objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects you
> > > just don´t let him play.
>
> > Exquise me? If someone objects to the Tournament Organizer's cheating,
> > you eject them?
>
> Define "cheating".
Flagrant violation of 1.1. That the TO believes them to be the same
tournament is not supported by VEKN rules.
If they really were one tournament, it would be a violation of 3.1.2,
3.1.3, and each "half" of the tournament could potentially be played
under different rules.
Look, if you *really* don't want people playing in both, schedule them
for the same day.
> > > Thank you for bringing it up though, perhaps someone wants to put this
> > > de-facto rule in some paragraph in the VEKN rules.
>
> > Or remove it, given its illegality.
>
> It is legal, since we reached an agreement with White Wolf on the
> issue a couple of years ago.
>
If it's not in the VEKN rules, it's not legal.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Feb 27, 8:02 pm, "gpettig...@gmail.com" <gpettig...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 27, 1:48 pm, "Damnans" <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 27, 7:37 pm, "gpettig...@gmail.com" <gpettig...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > [...]
>
> > > > Actually nobody ever cared if it is in some "official" (whatever that
> > > > means) rules, it is just the way we handle things and nobody ever
> > > > objected so we didn´t even think about it. And if somebody objects you
> > > > just don´t let him play.
>
> > > Exquise me? If someone objects to the Tournament Organizer's cheating,
> > > you eject them?
>
> > Define "cheating".
>
> Flagrant violation of 1.1. That the TO believes them to be the same
> tournament is not supported by VEKN rules.
No violation of 1.1.
1.1. Player Eligibility
Any player is eligible to participate in an open, non-invitational,
V:EKN-sanctioned tournament (for non-open tournaments, see section
9.8) except for the following:
* [...]
* Other players specifically prohibited from participation by
V:EKN or White Wolf, Inc. policy.
So it's legal.
[...]
> Look, if you *really* don't want people playing in both, schedule them
> for the same day.
That's easier said than done.
> > > > Thank you for bringing it up though, perhaps someone wants to put this
> > > > de-facto rule in some paragraph in the VEKN rules.
>
> > > Or remove it, given its illegality.
>
> > It is legal, since we reached an agreement with White Wolf on the
> > issue a couple of years ago.
>
> If it's not in the VEKN rules, it's not legal.
I am afraid it is legal:
1.7. Document Updates
The V:EKN reserves the right to alter these rules as well as the right
to interpret, modify, clarify, or otherwise issue official changes to
these rules, with or without prior notice.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Feb 27, 1:51 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> 3) Recently, in coordination with the local princes, WW has approved more than
> one qualifier in a given European country, and WW and the organizer(s) of those
> qualifiers have also agreed to certain restrictions, as allowed in the V:EKN
> rules (VEKN 1.1; and, if 1.1. doesn't do it for you, there's always 1.7).
I don't see how 1.1 or 1.7 has anything to do with it because up until
this post, there was no evidence that this *was* VEKN policy. A better
appeal might have been under 9.8, but, again, that would require
something official from you or Oscar.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
1) 1.1 allows WW's policy to have effect.
2) WW's policy is to have multiple qualifiers in a single European country to be
mutually exclusive (WW developed this policy through coordination with the
European princes).
3) Here we are.
On Feb 27, 2:26 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> 3) Here we are.
Well, yeah, but since when has "LSJ will comment eventually" stopped
us from arguing about something? :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Damnans schrieb:
> This is one of the two mutually exclusive Spanish Continental
> Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
Just as a quick nod to he people involved in the organization of the
weekend: It was a great experience for me to play and stay there. Thank
you Ferran, Gines and everybody else. Palma is a nice city, go there if
you find the time ;-)
Johannes
On May 21, 11:18 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:
> Damnans schrieb:
>
> > This is one of the two mutually exclusiveSpanishContinental
> > Qualifiers (the other one will be held in Bilbao).
>
> Just as a quick nod to he people involved in the organization of the
> weekend: It was a great experience for me to play and stay there. Thank> you Ferran, Gines and everybody else.Palmais a nice city, go there if> you find the time ;-)
>
> Johannes
You can be sure it was a pleasure to me. I hope see you again as soon
as
possible.
Ferran.
PS: I will play your card game this weekend :-).