problem: player A plays LETTER FROM VIENNA, players B and C have
Tremere, but not all are Cam, some are Anti...Player A claims that LFV
says tap all ready Tremere, Player B says it MEANS tapp all ready Cam
Tremere...I agree here since Vienna is the HQ of the Cam Tremere...
HOWEVER:...Player B has Etruis out and tries to steal blood off Playe
C's Anti Tremere...Player Csays no way but i agree here since he can
steal blood off any TREMERE...no distinction between species of Tremere
is made (Genus being Tremere and species either Cam or Anti)...what say
you rulemongers?...what about other basic cards from the original set
that call on the Genus of a clan?...
ie:Nosferatu Putresince?...Gangrel Devolution?...etcetc...thanks in
advance...
Coba...@iac.net
[ quoted text not captured ]
Tremere and TremereAnti are two distinct clans - no card that affects
only members of one will affects members of the other. This includes
ViennaLetter, Etrius, NosPut, GanDeev, etcetc.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Experience is something you
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | get just after you need it.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
On 13 Nov 1996, cobalt60 wrote:
> problem: player A plays LETTER FROM VIENNA, players B and C have
> Tremere, but not all are Cam, some are Anti...Player A claims that LFV
> says tap all ready Tremere, Player B says it MEANS tapp all ready Cam
> Tremere...I agree here since Vienna is the HQ of the Cam Tremere...
> HOWEVER:...Player B has Etruis out and tries to steal blood off Playe
> C's Anti Tremere...Player Csays no way but i agree here since he can
> steal blood off any TREMERE...no distinction between species of Tremere
> is made (Genus being Tremere and species either Cam or Anti)...what say
> you rulemongers?...what about other basic cards from the original set
> that call on the Genus of a clan?...
> ie:Nosferatu Putresince?...Gangrel Devolution?...etcetc...thanks in
> advance...
>> Coba...@iac.net
>
>
>
Unfortunately, anything that names a clan from the previous game only
applies to the Camarilla version of that clan. This is because, as listed
on the rules insert, Sabbat Malkavians are not Malkavians at all. The
official clan name is 'Malkavian Antitribu' for example. There is
absolutely no relation between them and, at this point, no card which
affects both clans at once.
>Tremere and TremereAnti are two distinct clans - no card that affects
>only members of one will affects members of the other. This includes
>ViennaLetter, Etrius, NosPut, GanDeev, etcetc.
well...IMHO...thats a load of crap...this implies that the entire
SABBAT
expansion is totally EXCLUSIVE of the previously printed, oh, 1,000
some-odd
cards i (me, my friends, how many other players in this game from day
one
and still call themselves JYHAD players?!) own and are 2 mutually
exclusive
sets...and if this exclusiveness is as such, none of the cards should
be
allowed to be mixed when building decks; either your deck consists of
ENTIRLY SABBAT cards or any of the previously printed cards/sets...yet
another amazingly stupid act by WOTC to alienate the Jyhad player/CCG
player
in general...any concenters or am i alone in my rantings?
Karl D. Feldmann coba...@iac.net
cobalt60 (coba...@iac.net) wrote:
: >Tremere and TremereAnti are two distinct clans - no card that affects: >only members of one will affects members of the other. This includes
: >ViennaLetter, Etrius, NosPut, GanDeev, etcetc.
:
: well...IMHO...thats a load of crap...this implies that the entire
: SABBAT expansion is totally EXCLUSIVE of the previously printed, oh,
: 1,000 some-odd cards i (me, my friends, how many other players in
: this game from day one and still call themselves JYHAD players?!)
Can you explain how this makes Sabbat totally exclusive? Can't I use
new potence cards with old vamps? Yes... Can't new votes affect my old
vamps, yes...
: own and are 2 mutually exclusive sets...
Again, can you explain how the addition of a bunch of new clans makes
it mutually exclusive? DS and AH added new clans, why were they alright?
Well Karl, I'm sure that there are many with concerns about the Sabbat,
but I haven't heard from as many with concerns similar to yours. I'd like
to understand them better... can you elucidate?
-spongy
coba...@iac.net (cobalt60) wrote:
>problem: player A plays LETTER FROM VIENNA, players B and C have
>Tremere, but not all are Cam, some are Anti...Player A claims that LFV
>says tap all ready Tremere, Player B says it MEANS tapp all ready Cam
>Tremere...I agree here since Vienna is the HQ of the Cam Tremere...
>HOWEVER:...Player B has Etruis out and tries to steal blood off Playe
>C's Anti Tremere...Player Csays no way but i agree here since he can
>steal blood off any TREMERE...no distinction between species of Tremere
>is made (Genus being Tremere and species either Cam or Anti)...what say
>you rulemongers?...what about other basic cards from the original set
>that call on the Genus of a clan?...
>ie:Nosferatu Putresince?...Gangrel Devolution?...etcetc...thanks in
>advance...
From the Sabbat Rules Update: "Members of the Sabbat antitribu clans are
outcasts, . . . they are not members of the Camarilla versions of their
clans. Cards that affect all members of a clan (such as Consanguineous
Condemnation) may affect either the Camarilla clan members or the antitribu
members, but never both."
I'm confused a bit by it as well but our play group has been considering
the antitribu as completely different clans. Therefore, any action that
affects Tremere cannot affect Tremere antitribu and vice-versa. I know that
if you look at it in RPG terms it only makes partial sense (Yes, Sabbat
Tremere would care less about letters from Vienna, but why wouldn't Gangrel
antitribu be just as susceptible to de-evolution?) but it makes things
easier to manage in V:tes, otherwise everyone would sit around trying to
figure out what cards can and cannot affect antitribu. Don't forget that
there are specific antitribu clan hosers as well, which you could not play
on their Camarilla counterparts.
Don't try to figure out cards with White Wolf game logic, I've tried to do
it and it doesn't work most of the time. Some aspects of V:tes are not
compatible with the RPG.
-- Glen McKay (Mishra Worker)
In article <56gkt4$g...@cheyenne.iac.net>, coba...@iac.net (cobalt60) writes:
> >Tremere and TremereAnti are two distinct clans - no card that affects
> >only members of one will affects members of the other. This includes
> >ViennaLetter, Etrius, NosPut, GanDeev, etcetc.
>
> well...IMHO...thats a load of crap...this implies that the entire
> SABBAT
> expansion is totally EXCLUSIVE of the previously printed, oh, 1,000
> some-odd
> cards i (me, my friends, how many other players in this game from day
> one> and still call themselves JYHAD players?!) own and are 2 mutually
> exclusive> sets...and if this exclusiveness is as such, none of the cards should
> be
> allowed to be mixed when building decks; either your deck consists of
> ENTIRLY SABBAT cards or any of the previously printed cards/sets...yet
> another amazingly stupid act by WOTC to alienate the Jyhad player/CCG
> player
> in general...any concenters or am i alone in my rantings?
Not quite... the Antitribu are clans who have specifically turned their backs
on the Camarilla sect, and thus not only defined their own characteristic
traits, but shut themselves out of previously-accessible resources. When some
Toreador became Antitribu, they lost the ability to safely hunt in society
circles (Society Hunting Ground). So they established their own safe hunting
grounds (Fetish Club Hunting Ground). Tremere Antitribu are not affected by a
Letter From Vienna because they no longer answer to the Council of Seven. They
really don't give a flip about Etrius and his lackeys. Likewise, you may be
able to briefly twist a Malkavian into doing a task for you (Malkavian
Dementia), but don't try that silliness with the Antitribu Malkavians, their
minds operate differently. You can, however, make one paranoid enough to sit
inert for some time, until he or she takes the time to collect themselves
(Malkavian Derangement: Paranoia).
Yes, these clans are related. They decend from the same bloodlines. But the
Antitribu made a choice to follow their own paths. In many cases, this
included whole different fields of study. And while as Methuselahs we are
above such pettiness, and may control whomever we choose to focus on, we cannot
easily change the nature of Camarilla vs. Sabbat, or hope to restore basic
clan rights to an Antitribu.
Randy
--
===============================================================================
Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS Phone: (303)595-2869
Denver, CO rj...@uswest.com
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept." --Calvin
===============================================================================
Karl (slightly abridged) writes:
>well...IMHO...thats a load of crap...this implies that the entire
>SABBAT expansion is totally EXCLUSIVE of the previously printed,>oh, 1,000 some-odd cards i own and are 2 mutually exclusive>sets...and if this exclusiveness is as such, none of the cards should
>be allowed to be mixed when building decks; either your deck consists of
>ENTIRLY SABBAT cards or any of the previously printed cards/sets
That's almost right. It is quite logical that you can't mix
Sabbat with Cammarilla. Go read a WW book. The Tremere Antitribu
don't report to Vienna, and the Gangrel Antitribu aren't country
bumpkins. Heck, even the Nosferatu of differing beliefs (read
Antitribu) don't share evrything with their Cammarilla brethren.
Building a Antitribu deck is like building a Independent deck.
It means there are now twenty clans, even if some share the same
name. This doesn't mean you can't combine Sabbat with other
expansions. It's not uncommon to see a two or three clan deck
(expecially if the two clans are essentially the same). And
it's not uncommon for Methuselahs to manipulate both sects at
the same time. We're funny that way. ;-)
PS This thread should be titled "Sects and Violence" :-)
--
________________ ______
___@^^^^\ / \ I break for Craw Wurms! / \
@ \_____/ David Schwartz \__________________________/ >
(^^^^^\ _______ ___/
\---\ / \ da...@schwartz.manawatu.gen.nz /
\_____________/ \__________________________________/
cobalt60 (coba...@iac.net) wrote:
: >Tremere and TremereAnti are two distinct clans - no card that affects: >only members of one will affects members of the other. This includes
: >ViennaLetter, Etrius, NosPut, GanDeev, etcetc.: well...IMHO...thats a load of crap...this implies that the entire: SABBAT
: expansion is totally EXCLUSIVE of the previously printed, oh, 1,000
: some-odd: cards i (me, my friends, how many other players in this game from day
: one
: and still call themselves JYHAD players?!) own and are 2 mutually: exclusive
: sets...and if this exclusiveness is as such, none of the cards should
: be
: allowed to be mixed when building decks; either your deck consists of: ENTIRLY SABBAT cards or any of the previously printed cards/sets...yet: another amazingly stupid act by WOTC to alienate the Jyhad player/CCG
: player
: in general...any concenters or am i alone in my rantings?
sigh...Doesn't anyone realize that this makes perfect sense in the context
of the source material? The Cam. clans and their "antitribu" counterparts
*do not* interact with one another. They are enemies. So they are
considered different clans. Makes sense to me.
And what's this rantings about "two mutually exclusive sets"?
Aside from clan- and sect-specific cards, the old disciplines, masters,
etc. are fully compatible. Does it make *sense* for a Tzimisce to play
a Fifth Tradition: Hospitality? Of course not.
: Karl D. Feldmann coba...@iac.net
--
Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu)
http://www.amherst.edu/~esmanch
"Come...dry your eyes, for you are life, rarer than a quark and
unpredictable beyond the dreams of Heisenberg; the clay in which
the forces that shape all things leave their fingerprints
most clearly."
-Alan Moore, "The Watchmen"
In 14-Nov-96 21:35:16 cobalt60 told me this about Re: Clan Genus and Species
>>Tremere and TremereAnti are two distinct clans - no card that affects
>>only members of one will affects members of the other. This includes
>>ViennaLetter, Etrius, NosPut, GanDeev, etcetc.>well...IMHO...thats a load of crap...this implies that the entire
>SABBAT
>expansion is totally EXCLUSIVE of the previously printed, oh, 1,000
>some-odd
>cards i (me, my friends, how many other players in this game from day
>one
>and still call themselves JYHAD players?!) own and are 2 mutually
>exclusive
>sets...and if this exclusiveness is as such, none of the cards should
>be
>allowed to be mixed when building decks; either your deck consists of
>ENTIRLY SABBAT cards or any of the previously printed cards/sets...yet
>another amazingly stupid act by WOTC to alienate the Jyhad player/CCG
>player
>in general...any concenters or am i alone in my rantings?>Karl D. Feldmann coba...@iac.net
>That's almost right. It is quite logical that you can't mix
>Sabbat with Cammarilla. Go read a WW book. The Tremere Antitribu
>don't report to Vienna, and the Gangrel Antitribu aren't country
>bumpkins. Heck, even the Nosferatu of differing beliefs (read
>Antitribu) don't share evrything with their Cammarilla brethren.
>Building a Antitribu deck is like building a Independent deck.
>It means there are now twenty clans, even if some share the same
>name.
Ehrm, 21 to be exact... PANDER's is a CLAN...
Brujah
Gangrel
Malkavian
Nosferatu
Toreador
Tremere
Ventrue
Assamites
Giovanni
Ravnos
Setites
Brujah Antitribu
Gangrel Antitribu
Lasombra
Malkavian Antitribu
Nosferatu Antitribu
Panders (They are a clan (Sabbat Player Guide =) ))
Toreador Antitribu
Tremere Antitribu
Tzimisce
Ventrue Antitribu
And then, there are the poor clanless vampires, the Caitiff =)
>This doesn't mean you can't combine Sabbat with other
>expansions. It's not uncommon to see a two or three clan deck
>(expecially if the two clans are essentially the same). And
>it's not uncommon for Methuselahs to manipulate both sects at
>the same time. We're funny that way. ;-)
"Add new dimensions to the game" they said... What new dimensions are the
Antitribu Clans than new vampires in your old decks...
In Rage you cannot use Gaia and Wyrm in the same deck... So shall it be for
Cammarilla and Sabbat in your Crypts...
I've seen to many add Jacko (Brujah Antitribu) in their old Brujah crypt...
How interesting.
Im not interested in hearing that "We are methusalas controlling vampires
against our enemies". With Fast Reaction and Hidden Lurker your vampires
DO cooperate anyway.
> staffan.bengtsson wrote:> "Add new dimensions to the game" they said... What new dimensions
> are the Antitribu Clans than new vampires in your old decks...> In Rage you cannot use Gaia and Wyrm in the same deck... So shall
> it be for Cammarilla and Sabbat in your Crypts...
I'll do that when I can make a decent all-Sabbat deck.
That, btw, is impossible for certain clans, like the Gangrel,
and tough for others, like the Tremere. Or, on the other hand, it
is...but it will not compare well to any mix of Camarilla and Sabbat.
> I'll do that when I can make a decent all-Sabbat deck.> That, btw, is impossible for certain clans, like the Gangrel,
>and tough for others, like the Tremere. Or, on the other hand, it
>is...but it will not compare well to any mix of Camarilla and Sabbat.
Gangrel Antitribu is a Joke, so let's forget about them until they are two
clans (country and city gangrel).
I Have actually made my first real serius deck today and it works,a dn like all
my other deck it just consists of ONE clan... And that clan is Ventrue Antitribu.
I use 2 of each vampire, in that way I can have a good crypt, even if i sometime
get 2 of the same in my inactive region.
The deck is about trap, prevent, prevent, prevent and so on... =)
I prevent while my opponent can't... Use some bang nakh's, and a pair
of thoughts betrayed.