This is probably WAAAAY premature and will make me look pretty silly
after a few weeks, but right now it seems to me that a big strength of SW
is the lack of Power Commons in the boosters. No Govern, no conditioning
[both these still there in precons, which is fine], no KRC, no legal
manipulations, no majesty, misdirection thoroughly knee-capped.
Storage Annex may turn out to be abusable; and The haunting looks like a
dam' fine card. But apart from these, the power commons in SW look like
Undead Strength and Pushing the Limit.
i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage. This can
be amusing or frustrating, but it does now seem to me that there's the
potential for a new player to get hold of the Brujah antitribu deck, beef
it up with a few cards from the boosters, and go to town, resulting in
serious table-unbalancing effects. They won't win, of course, but i think
the assumption that combat is going to be fielded only by really
experienced and skillful players is going to crumble over the next few
months, which has consequences for all of those who play competitively.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
>see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
>get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
>and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil
card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain. If Majesty isn't a
good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
what is.
Andrew
In article
<123DCB4DB2D362CF.FCB1AC53...@lp.airnews.net>,
a...@csi.com wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are
about to
> >see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here
we
> >get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote
deck
> >and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
>
> Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
> as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
> cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
> how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
> stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil
> card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain.
If there was a VTES equivalent of Wind, combat would be very awesome
indeed. Sadly (or not) Waste Management restores just one card a turn
(once in play) to your deck. The tight focus of a dedicated combat
deck plays cards at a furious rate. It has to achieve decisive results
quickly or run out of steam.
>If Majesty isn't a
> good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
> what is.
IG (I got another in Gideon's gift last night. :-) ) only works at
close range, so maneuvers (combat card and permanent) are helpful,
especially when the cards are dual use.
Tom
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article
<123DCB4DB2D362CF.FCB1AC53...@lp.airnews.net>,
a...@csi.com wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are
about to
> >see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here
we
> >get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote
deck
> >and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
>
> Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
> as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
> cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
> how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
> stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil> card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain. If Majesty isn't a> good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
> what is.
Majesty shouldn't be an issue for a standard rush deck, due to a
variety of strike: combat ends hosing cards - Immortal Grapple is the
fave, but also see Psyche, Thoughts Betrayed, Hidden Lurker, and Fast
Reaction (really Tzimisce only can use this) and the new Telepathic
Tracking (again, really for the fiends or the !Toreador, or some gung
ho Malkavians - don't laugh, I've seen a Malkavian combat deck do quite
well!).
A real favourite for me at the moment is the Obedience technique - get
a high cap vampire with Dominate and jump in the way of a Bums Rush /
Ambush. Most bruise decks don't bother with stealth so you should be
able to block, which means you get to play your Obedience.
The best thing about this is that it "cancels" combat before it happens
rather than "Strike: Combat Ends" combat, so the poor fool with all the
combat cards can't cycle them and ends up with a seven combat card hand
jam. I played this technique to great effect last night, but suffered
from running out of stealth myself and got smashed to pieces! The one
bad thing about Obedience is that it is a reaction card only - not a
combat card.
Failing that, it's down to damage prevention. Best for this is Superior
Mettle or Rolling with the Punches, and for you Gangrel lovers, a Flesh
of Marble / Skin of Night combo keeps you warm and snug.
DH
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <
123DCB4DB2D362CF.FCB1AC53...@lp.airnews.net>,
a...@csi.com wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
> >see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
> >get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
> >and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
>
> Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
> as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
> cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
> how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
> stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil
> card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain. If Majesty isn't a
> good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
> what is.
Majesty or catatonic fear or Earth Meld with manouevers is a good counter
to this kind of deck alright. So is Obedience or Legacy of Power. So is
fortitude-based damage prevention. There are also cunning tactical things
you can do to send the combat deck at somebody else [not bringing out
vampires for a while and then activating several at once is a good way to
do this]. As for the card cycling, that can quite quickly lead to hand-
jam for a combat deck, which can be very serious because it is usually
the case that for such a deck ONE failed combat is enough to lose you the
game. However, i'm not worried by hearing about combat decks that win -
combat OUGHT to be going toe-to-toe with the other strategies [bleed and
vote] and you SHOULD have to think about the likelihood that you are
going to be rushed when you are building a non-combat deck. What i AM
worried about is the possibility that we could start to see
strategically-incompetent combat decks that just destabilise the whole
table so that you may as well roll a dice to see who wins. Some people i
guess won't even be worried by this - after all, lots of people play
malkavian games and pranks, others play feeble vote decks and some play
massive intercept/Eagles' site deck. There's nothing intrinsically wrong
with these strategies if they are cleverly played and it's a pleasure to
watch a good deck of any of these flavours well-played. Too often,
however, they just mess up the basic predator/prey dynamic which IMO is
the reason that VTES works so very well as a multi-player game.
[ quoted text not captured ]
<legb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ugiih$l65$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> This is probably WAAAAY premature and will make me look pretty silly
> after a few weeks, but right now it seems to me that a big strength of SW
> is the lack of Power Commons in the boosters. No Govern, no conditioning
> [both these still there in precons, which is fine], no KRC, no legal
> manipulations, no majesty, misdirection thoroughly knee-capped.
I have to agree with you on this one, I have seen quite a few boxes open now
and the spread seems conducive to combat, with less power commons. I think
the set designers have accomplished what they set out to do putting the
Sabbat on a much more even footing with the Camarilla.
I also suspect that your predictions regarding the 'casual' combat deck will
prove frighteningly accurate. Previously, in Jyhad/VTES etc. the most
obvious beginner deck was a simple sneak-bleed or vote affair. Now that the
onus has shifted much more toward combat I also think we will see a LOT more
beats decks flying around. Which is no bad thing !!
> i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
> see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
> get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
> and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
The weekly Southampton VTES / beer / abuse / other evening last night went
on into the small hours and was totally dominated by Sabbat pain decks. A
few old players have joined our weekly game coming out from the woodwork
with the release of SW. Most notably Nick the Greek and Tall Stu.
I played a new Lasombra toolbox (heavy on beats), Wil had an interesting
theme equipment smashing deck, Special Agent Jon Cooper played one of his
new Extreme beats decks (very very nasty), Steve played a version of the
Lazverinus deck with frightening additions like Burning Wrath, Pierre played
my new Tzimisce deck kicking my Lucita and fatman Plenipotentiary in a few
times and Nick the Greek played one of his 4 yr old decks that was as far as
I can determine a totally random assortment of cards.
Bloody good fun had by all.
We all had a blast with the new cards and combat bias, I have lost my voice
today from laughing, shouting and agitating.
Rob
>They won't win, of course, but i think
> the assumption that combat is going to be fielded only by really
> experienced and skillful players is going to crumble over the next few
> months, which has consequences for all of those who play competitively.
(Looking forward to an all combat Portsmouth tourney...shudder)
--
<legb...@my-deja.com> wrote...
snip
> Storage Annex may turn out to be abusable; and The haunting looks like a
> dam' fine card. But apart from these, the power commons in SW look like
> Undead Strength and Pushing the Limit.
>
snip
i'd say chiropteran marauder and specially shadow twin should be called
power commons as well. unlike with cryptic mission you can actually put
vampires to torpor. imho this is also the only viable strategy for shock
troops.
pallando
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Tom Kassel wrote:
> If there was a VTES equivalent of Wind, combat would be very awesome
> indeed. Sadly (or not) Waste Management restores just one card a turn
> (once in play) to your deck. The tight focus of a dedicated combat
> deck plays cards at a furious rate. It has to achieve decisive results
> quickly or run out of steam.
Generally (though not entirely) true. However, one card is still one
card. I'd rather have that Immortal Grapple back in the deck than in the
graveyard.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"Steve: Yeah, well that's one of the advantages of being a sad, lonely
fairy, I guess. You get to learn how to be a spy."
- Stephen Fry, Making History
In article <8ugndh$ohj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> A real favourite for me at the moment is the Obedience technique - get
> a high cap vampire with Dominate and jump in the way of a Bums Rush /
> Ambush. Most bruise decks don't bother with stealth so you should be
> able to block, which means you get to play your Obedience.
Obedience doesn't make any requirements as to blocking first. You can
play it without blocking. You must be untapped to play reaction cards,
though.
--
Khaleph Alendis, High Priest of Maizerets
VEKN Setite Prince of Beauport
http://www.oricom.ca/melkor/khaleph/[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0011101415110.20907-
100...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Tom Kassel wrote:
> > If there was a VTES equivalent of Wind, combat would be very awesome
> > indeed. Sadly (or not) Waste Management restores just one card a
turn
> > (once in play) to your deck. The tight focus of a dedicated combat
> > deck plays cards at a furious rate. It has to achieve decisive
results
> > quickly or run out of steam.
>
> Generally (though not entirely) true.
I'm just starting to play this deck so have much to learn. One of the
attractions as a newbie is the requirement to study whole table
dynamics in order to play it sensibly rather than just get one's head
down into the prey.
> However, one card is still one
> card. I'd rather have that Immortal Grapple back in the deck than in
the
> graveyard.
>
I agree and will certainly play with Waste Management. The power of
any recycler isn't the card but the choice of card. It's still a
moderate effect compared to the 5-6 cards we often see cycled by a Wind
in 'Fist. And of course these come into hand not merely deck.
Tom
[ quoted text not captured ]
Andrew wrote:
>>Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
how old they are.>>
<Mouth hangs agap>
Are you on crack, my friend? Combat decks are *so* far from broken that the
light from broken will take a million years to reach them.
Yea. If you stumble across a combat deck and have exactly zero combat defense,
you will be killed. On the down side, however, combat decks are:
-Very difficult to actually win a game with.
-Incredibly card combo intensive, and as such, tend to run out of card.
-Difficult to build effectively.
-Notoriously difficult to get victory points with.
-Easy to defend against, given a bit of planning (fortitude, manuvers,
obediance).
There is a reason that I have been on this newsgroup for literally *years*
trying to convince folks that Rush combat decks can actually win, and are
actually effective--no one believes me.
>>If Majesty isn't a good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more
details of what is.>>
No, no, you have the dichotomy all wrong. Rush combat exists to be the good
counter to the ripe cheese that is Majesty (or Malk S+B or Minion Tap/5th horse
abuse or any number of other strategies that are way too potent, but for the
existance of a Rush deck).
Again, Rush decks are incredibly difficult to actually win games with--yes, if
you sit down with a deck that has zero combat defense, and your predator is a
Rush deck, you will be ousted very quickly. How is this any different from
sitting down with a deck that has zero bleed defense when your predator is a
bleed deck?
I assure you that Combat decks are incredibly simple to foil. If you are
concerned about one, play the Ventrue, and put in, like, 20% non Majesty combat
defense (Skin of Steel, Obediance), and watch your 20% of deck shut down 100%
of the Rush guy's deck.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"Why so many swords?"
"I must kill many."
-Kikuchiyo
> > A real favourite for me at the moment is the Obedience technique - get
> > a high cap vampire with Dominate and jump in the way of a Bums Rush /
> > Ambush. Most bruise decks don't bother with stealth so you should be
> > able to block, which means you get to play your Obedience.
> Obedience doesn't make any requirements as to blocking first. You can
> play it without blocking. You must be untapped to play reaction cards,
> though.
Right, but if the high cap DOM vamp isn't the one being rushed, it
would have to block.
Sorrow
---
"Are they dead?" - Pugsly
"Does it matter?" - Wednesday
"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
> >see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
> >get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
> >and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
>> Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
> as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
> cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter> how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
> stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil> card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain. If Majesty isn't a> good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
> what is.
Majesty isn't a good counter, because it's too good of a counter. Let
me explain. If you build a combat deck with no way to deal with Majesty
(or other S:CE), then you're going to be a resounding failure. So most
combat decks include many copies of the anti-S:CE cards: Immortal
Grapple, Psyche!, etc. In turn, a non-combat deck which thinks that
just Majesty will suffice against a dedicated combat deck will die
horribly. So many such decks might include maneuvers to make their
Majestys more effective. So the combat deck puts in some maneuvers.
And so on. So I'm not saying Majesty isn't effective, but there are
many ways to get around it. You can make a deck and have that be your
only combat defense, but you should be aware that you're vulnerable to
being trumped by Immortal Grapple, etc.
BTW, if combat decks were broken, they'd be winning many more
tournaments than they do.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
> i'd say chiropteran marauder and specially shadow twin should be
called
> power commons as well. unlike with cryptic mission you can actually
put
> vampires to torpor. imho this is also the only viable strategy for
shock
> troops.
Chiropteran Marauder would be rubbish for Shock Troops as it needs
Superior Viscitude to get busy. If you have Master Discipline cards
left after playing your Shock Troops, you are wasting them!
I have been thinking about Shock Troops, and the best things I can
think of for them are:
1) Loads of Auspex for Telepathic Counters / intercept, and play Aura
Reading if in combat
2) Protean for Wolfs Claws / Earth meld and just blocking! (Probably
need KRCG / London Evening Star or Sports Bike / Mr Winthrop)
3) Obfuscate - Get Equiptment / recruit Allies
4) Animalism - Block and do a Trap / Song of Serenity / Carrion Crows /
Aid from Bats combo. With added Cats Guidance!
5) Presence - Use them as an Anti Vote block - loads of Dread Gaze /
Surprise influece with Majesties if blocking.
6)Fortitude - Soak up any damage from blocks, make the predator run out
of Combat cards!
The important thing is that they get -1 stealth on their actions.
Therefore Shadow Twin is too easily intercepted (basic d action), and
since Obtenebration isn't great for combat, you would be throwing away
a troop for no reason - same with Cryptic Missions. But they could work
in connection with a Brainwash / Cario, International Airport deck.
DH
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:55:17 +0000, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com>
wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
>>see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
>>get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
>>and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
(to leggy, compressed into one post to save space)
We don't usually have this problem. But then, usually new and
inexperienced players see one of US playing something vicious, and can
learn from observation: "Target Your Prey First, Then Anything
Threatening You." We also try to teach new people up front that
ousting the guy to your left should always be at the focus of
everything you do... and if it doesn't help you oust the guy to your
left, you might want to ask yourself why you're doing it. A Rush
backwards is often a good idea to keep yourself alive long enough to
oust him.. but nothing but defense won't get him dead.
>Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
>as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
>cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
>how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
>stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil
>card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain. If Majesty isn't a
>good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
>what is.
Flash, THEN Majesty. The Toreador love it, because inferior of both
is sufficient.
Skin of Steel played at superior is a very effective counter as well.
"You punch me for 5, then Blur and hit me for 5 two more times? OK, I
spend one blood and one card and take no damage." Its downside, of
course, is that when nobody is punching you for 15, then you tend to
have a lot of it in your hand.
Obedience, from an older vampire. "SIT! Stay. Good Beast!"
Elysium: Arboretum, or Purchase Pact - if the vampires are appropriate
clans.
Leather Jackets can save your guy for JUST long enough.
The old "Hit back Harder" theory. Include enough nuisance combat in
your own deck so that other combat decks have to slow down going after
you. Simply equipping an Ivory Bow will put a crimp in most
non-Immortal Grapple decks. For anyone with Protean, include some
Wolf Claws, which put a crimp in Immortal Grapple decks big time.
Speaking of IG decks, if you want to slow the non-Celerity versions
down, stick a bunch of Zip Guns in your deck, and block the Bum's
Rush. Free permanent maneuver! If you have sufficient pool gain, .44
Magnums are possibly a better choice, as they let you shoot back for
something significant without taking damage yourself. But those
require equip actions or Disguised Weapon.
Actually, Zip Guns or Fake Out or any other form of maneuver is
usually a fairly effective ploy. Sometimes they'll have the maneuver
card in hand, and catch you. But sometimes not. Of course, long
range decks will just blow your head off anyway... but Majesty and
others work lots better against those.
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
In article <316o0tk2e8riur0bo...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:55:17 +0000, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:27:34 GMT, legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >>i'm obviously quite pleased by this trend but i wonder if we are about to
> >>see the rise of the Stupid Combat Deck. Just occasionally down here we
> >>get a new or inexperienced player who builds a rush-combat or vote deck
> >>and then just slams around the table spreading random carnage.
>
> (to leggy, compressed into one post to save space)
>
> We don't usually have this problem. But then, usually new and
> inexperienced players see one of US playing something vicious, and can
> learn from observation: "Target Your Prey First, Then Anything
> Threatening You." We also try to teach new people up front that
> ousting the guy to your left should always be at the focus of
> everything you do... and if it doesn't help you oust the guy to your
> left, you might want to ask yourself why you're doing it. A Rush
> backwards is often a good idea to keep yourself alive long enough to
> oust him.. but nothing but defense won't get him dead.
>
Yeah, testify, brother! Testify! But it is SOOO hard even for an
experienced and good player to get these points AND do the tactical thing
as well, IME. Maybe i am just being an overanxious old git here. We'll
see. i think we may all have to sharpen up our table-talk skills for the
next few months, i suppose is what i am saying.
<snip other stuff which i agree with>
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:58:39 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>I have been thinking about Shock Troops, and the best things I can
>think of for them are:
>
>1) Loads of Auspex for Telepathic Counters / intercept, and play Aura
>Reading if in combat
Expensive in card slots, at 1 reduction per TC played. Have to get
them up to superior somehow.
>2) Protean for Wolfs Claws / Earth meld and just blocking! (Probably
>need KRCG / London Evening Star or Sports Bike / Mr Winthrop)
Protean w/Earth Meld and blocking any 0-stealth action or a couple
1-stealthers with intercept locations seems nice. Wolf claws, not so
nice, people dodge and then what? :)
>3) Obfuscate - Get Equiptment / recruit Allies
At -1 stealth, OBF can get a little card-intensive too.
>4) Animalism - Block and do a Trap / Song of Serenity / Carrion Crows /
>Aid from Bats combo. With added Cats Guidance!
Needs superior ANI for the Song of Serenity... =/
>5) Presence - Use them as an Anti Vote block - loads of Dread Gaze /
>Surprise influece with Majesties if blocking.
This seems one of the best uses to me, although I'd use Surprise
Influence and combine it with the listed below, unless I was going to
cough up some PRE skill cards for the 4-vote Dread Gaze. Problem: is
this any better than a Creation Rites/PRE baby who just sits there?
>6)Fortitude - Soak up any damage from blocks, make the predator run out
>of Combat cards!
Fortitude troops are possibly best; not because they can prevent
during the blocks, but because they can Rapid Heal themselves back out
of torpor after blocking. Sure, they don't gain the blood, but who
cares? It was a relatively free minion. :)
>The important thing is that they get -1 stealth on their actions.
>Therefore Shadow Twin is too easily intercepted (basic d action), and
>since Obtenebration isn't great for combat, you would be throwing away
>a troop for no reason - same with Cryptic Missions. But they could work
>in connection with a Brainwash / Cario, International Airport deck.
-- Derek
[ quoted text not captured ]
"James Coupe" <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.21.001110...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk...
> Generally (though not entirely) true. However, one card is still one> card. I'd rather have that Immortal Grapple back in the deck than in the
> graveyard.
What's up with everyone calling it the graveyard recently? Isn't it the ash
heap?
:P
Xian
--
I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold.
A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart.
--_Shellshock_, New Order
www.waste.org/~xian
In article <316o0tk2e8riur0bo...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We don't usually have this problem. But then, usually new and
> inexperienced players see one of US playing something vicious, and can
> learn from observation: "Target Your Prey First, Then Anything
> Threatening You."
I'd have thought that first taking down a predator's vampire had much
to recommend it. Give him a defensive problem to reduce his potential
bleeds against you for a while. I am talking about the fully committed
form of rush, with no intercept/untap at all.
Tom
[ quoted text not captured ]
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
*snip*
> What i AM worried about is the possibility that we could start to see
> strategically-incompetent combat decks that just destabilise the whole
> table so that you may as well roll a dice to see who wins. Some
> people i guess won't even be worried by this - after all, lots of
> people play malkavian games and pranks, others play feeble vote decks
> and some play massive intercept/Eagles' site deck. There's nothing
> intrinsically wrong with these strategies if they are cleverly played
> and it's a pleasure to watch a good deck of any of these flavours
> well-played. Too often, however, they just mess up the basic
> predator/prey dynamic which IMO is the reason that VTES works so very
> well as a multi-player game.
Now this is a puzzle I've often had to work. I love the Tzimisce, and
so I play them regularly. I thoroughly enjoy the reactionary style of
the massive intercept/Eagles' Sight deck. But at the same time, like
you say, this is one of the easiest deck types to ruin the
predator/prey dynamic with. You have to keep blocking your prey, as
that is your primary means of ousting him. But, being reactionary,
you're not fast enough to take him/her out before your grand-prey
builds up.
And then you also have the problem of your predator 'going salmon' when
your deck shuts him down. He turns upstream, possibly forcing his
predator to hold back, forcing *his* predator to hold back, etc., until
now your prey is holding back and you don't have anything to block
anymore.
At my last tournament, this very problem popped up in the final. I'd
put up a serious wall to my predator, and my prey was rarely
taking actions (I think because of my Eagles' Sight). I hadn't played
competitively in quite a while, and I think one of the mistakes I made
in that game was blocking my prey a little too frequently early. If
I'd have saved a bit of those up and let him work his prey a bit, my
grand-prey and grand-predator (winner) wouldn't have been so strong
towards the end. It's something I'll definitely take to the next
tournament with me.
And speaking of next tournament, I believe I'll see a lot more Tzimisce
out there with the additions made to them in SW. IMO, they got the
best help of all the Sabbat clans, and are really going to be a force
to be reckoned with.
p.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:18:37 GMT, Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
It does. But the biggest mistake I see with new players and combat
decks is constantly pointing themselves to the right for anything that
seems remotely like a threat, to the point where they neglect to point
themselves to the left enough.
If Ozmo or Emerson Bridges comes out behind you, they need to go away
immediately, for obvious reasons. Emerson even more so since he is
likely to be packing Fortitude and you may not be able to get him at
your leisure; he may require some effort.
A predator who transfers out Zoe or Agrippina, however, is not
something you need to worry about extensively. Spend your time going
forward, and if Agrippina does anything silly like put a Spying
Mission (read "bullseye") on herself, THEN blow her away. Same with
Zoe; she's only a significant threat to you if your grand-predator is
a big bleeder, and even THEN I might wait around to see if she was a
bleed bouncer or an interceptor.
Pointing yourself left doesn't always imply Rushing all their vamps
into torpor immediately, either, since you want them to hurt their
prey some as well. Kill their first guy. Then you could pretend to
be out of Rush actions and spend a lot of time bleeding for 1. Odds
are they won't block, and while they MIGHT waste the blood Deflecting,
it's a coin flip there. This way, they transfer out more vampires,
and once they get 3 out and have piddled around for a bit, you can
spend one turn and kill all of them in one shot.
Rush decks' best form of bleed is convincing their prey to transfer
out vampires, who are then wholesale bleeds for 4-6. Killing the
first two guys as they come out is likely to provoke them to transfer
all but 1 to a couple, and then stall until you are forced to turn
your attention to your predator more solidly, or until they draw into
their combat defense. (If they have none, they're screwed.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <s8go0tcca299djou1...@4ax.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
That's an interesting way to look at it. Tasty one-shot blood dolls
too. Thanks for the helpful advice.
Tom
[ quoted text not captured ]
>"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote:>>
>> Tom played a deck of this sort last night though it wasn't so stupid
>> as it won. A combat deck comes across as very broken to me - cycling
>> cards like crazy and never giving other vampires a chance, no matter
>> how old they are. It takes the worst of a Doomtown deck which is so
>> stacked that you can't lose a shootout and combines it with the evil
>> card cycling of Shadowfist's Wind on the Mountain. If Majesty isn't a
>> good counter to this ripe cheese then please give me more details of
>> what is.
[replying 2nd hand as my usenet feed lost the original]
Trying to use majesty against a potence rush deck is comparable to trying
to use Fortitude against a Tremere combat deck -- it's just not going to
work as they are built specifically to stop it. This doesn't mean that there
aren't other defenses.
Maneuvers and Fortitude are good general prevention. Majesty is more
effective as a suplement to these kinds of cards. Obedience is great.
The Elysium and Secure Haven are very annoying. Aggravated hand damage
can slow them down, and ranged combat really hoses rush combat. Hell, in
general having anyone who can fight back helps.
IMHO if rush combat were really so cheesy, it would be more effective.
-Jasper
>>3) Obfuscate - Get Equiptment / recruit Allies>
>At -1 stealth, OBF can get a little card-intensive too.
If you're playing with older vamps, you can also use Psychic Veil to get things
through. Hidden Pathways will also help upp the stealth for all of the shock
troops.
>>since Obtenebration isn't great for combat, you would be throwing away
>>a troop for no reason - same with Cryptic Missions.
Although Thaumaturgy may not seem like the best choice to choose for the
discipline cards, if you're playing Tremere, you can make heavy use of Tremere
Convocation. This will give all the new shock troops the ability to play
superior thaumaturgy! And they still are a bit expendable -- have the first
shock troop use a superior Burst, sending it's opponent to torpor and burning
itself. With the second shock troop, you diablerize the torpored vamp and the
kicker -- for your new skill card (due to diablerie) you choose the former
shock troop / discipline card!
In addition, though these vampires are clanless, you can still set up a method
of bloatedness. Tribute to the Master along with Media Influence or Blood Feast
can be an effective equivalent to Minion Tap / 5th.
Halcyan 2
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001111043628...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> Although Thaumaturgy may not seem like the best choice to choose for the
> discipline cards, if you're playing Tremere, you can make heavy use of
Tremere
> Convocation. This will give all the new shock troops the ability to play
> superior thaumaturgy! And they still are a bit expendable -- have the first
Well, they can play superior in combat. But it does give the +1 stealth on
tha actions, so Cryptic Mission would be at its usual stealth.
> shock troop use a superior Burst, sending it's opponent to torpor and
burning
> itself. With the second shock troop, you diablerize the torpored vamp and
the
> kicker -- for your new skill card (due to diablerie) you choose the former
> shock troop / discipline card!
Cruel. :) I like it.
Xian
On 11 Nov 2000 09:36:28 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote:
>>>3) Obfuscate - Get Equiptment / recruit Allies>>
>>At -1 stealth, OBF can get a little card-intensive too.>
>If you're playing with older vamps, you can also use Psychic Veil to get things
>through. Hidden Pathways will also help upp the stealth for all of the shock
>troops.
You can do that with one OBF vampire and -any- troops though. ;)
>>>since Obtenebration isn't great for combat, you would be throwing away
>>>a troop for no reason - same with Cryptic Missions.>>Although Thaumaturgy may not seem like the best choice to choose for the
>discipline cards, if you're playing Tremere, you can make heavy use of Tremere
>Convocation. This will give all the new shock troops the ability to play
>superior thaumaturgy! And they still are a bit expendable -- have the first>shock troop use a superior Burst, sending it's opponent to torpor and burning
>itself. With the second shock troop, you diablerize the torpored vamp and the
>kicker -- for your new skill card (due to diablerie) you choose the former
>shock troop / discipline card!
Don't think you can fetch discipline cards from your ash heap during
diablerie - only from library. :)
>In addition, though these vampires are clanless, you can still set up a method
>of bloatedness. Tribute to the Master along with Media Influence or Blood Feast
>can be an effective equivalent to Minion Tap / 5th.
Tribute/Media Influence doesn't work with 1-caps. Media Influence
only reloads untapped vampires; since the first actions must be hunt
actions, any empty vampires will be tapped. :)
You're thinking Autarkis Persecution, which -will- be some useful
blood gain. If you can get the cards in your hand.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray wrote in message ...
>Don't think you can fetch discipline cards from your ash heap during
>diablerie - only from library. :)
Derek. Derek. You know full well you can retrieve a Master Discipline card
from your Hand, Library, or Ash Heap after Diablerie. Yummy tasty.
Mike Ooi
Insane Prince of Houston, TX
Home of the functionally-named Houston Texans NFL Team
sh...@texas.net
On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:36:57 GMT, "Mike Ooi" <sh...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>Derek Ray wrote in message ...>>Don't think you can fetch discipline cards from your ash heap during
>>diablerie - only from library. :)>
>Derek. Derek. You know full well you can retrieve a Master Discipline card
>from your Hand, Library, or Ash Heap after Diablerie. Yummy tasty.
Hm. Never really looked at it before. Amusing. I guess I don't eat
enough vampires. :)
(That, or I've almost totally lost my mind here.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote:
> "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message> > Although Thaumaturgy may not seem like the best choice to
> > choose for the discipline cards, if you're playing Tremere,
> > you can make heavy use of Tremere Convocation. This will
> > give all the new shock troops the ability to play superior
> > thaumaturgy! And they still are a bit expendable -- have
>> Well, they can play superior in combat. But it does give the +1
> stealth on tha actions, so Cryptic Mission would be at its usual
> stealth.
Only to Tremere, so first you'd have to get the little buggers
each to do a Clan Impersonation.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:08:57 GMT, ELDB Dave <eldb...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>>> >Derek. Derek. You know full well you can retrieve a Master Discipline>card>> >from your Hand, Library, or Ash Heap after Diablerie. Yummy tasty.
>>
>> Hm. Never really looked at it before. Amusing. I guess I don't eat
>> enough vampires. :)
>>
>> (That, or I've almost totally lost my mind here.)>
>Derek! You must be full of it...you KNOW that here in Atlanta you are
>the diablerie king, dude. ;)
Having your own guys get munched repeatedly does NOT qualify as
"diablerie king", sorry. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:58:39 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com said:
ham> I have been thinking about Shock Troops, and the best things I can
ham> think of for them are:
...
Don't forget Potence & Bum's Rush / Ambush. The -1 stealth doesn't
matter to rush combat, and with a bunch of Immortal Grapples and basic
potence stuff Shock Troops gives you a nice "beat the crap out of
them" cannonfodder troop.
//Petri
In article <8ukg5u$kt6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote:
> > "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > Although Thaumaturgy may not seem like the best choice to
> > > choose for the discipline cards, if you're playing Tremere,
> > > you can make heavy use of Tremere Convocation. This will
> > > give all the new shock troops the ability to play superior
> > > thaumaturgy! And they still are a bit expendable -- have
> >
> > Well, they can play superior in combat. But it does give the +1
> > stealth on tha actions, so Cryptic Mission would be at its usual
> > stealth.
>
> Only to Tremere, so first you'd have to get the little buggers
> each to do a Clan Impersonation.
>
Huh? Is this new errata? The only clarification I have seen is
"Second sentence of Tremere Convocation should read: "Vampires with
basic Thaumaturgy
may play combat cards requiring Thaumaturgy as if they had
superior Thaumaturgy."
[RTR 19970630]
It does not say that the vampires with thaumaturgy must be Tremere to
gain the bonus.
If you meant that to play this card that you must have a Tremere in
play to play this card, then I agree.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > > Well, they can play superior in combat. But it does give the +1
> > > stealth on tha actions, so Cryptic Mission would be at its usual
> > > stealth.
> >
> > Only to Tremere, so first you'd have to get the little buggers
> > each to do a Clan Impersonation.
> >
>
> Huh? Is this new errata? The only clarification I have seen is
I think he's referring to the stealth, nto the superior bit. Card text:
"Master. Put this card in play. Tremere get +1 stealth when attempting
actions that require Thaumaturgy. "
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"Steve: Yeah, well that's one of the advantages of being a sad, lonely
fairy, I guess. You get to learn how to be a spy."
- Stephen Fry, Making History
James Coupe wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > > > Well, they can play superior in combat. But it does give the +1
> > > > stealth on tha actions, so Cryptic Mission would be at its usual
> > > > stealth.
> > > Only to Tremere, so first you'd have to get the little buggers
> > > each to do a Clan Impersonation.
> > Huh? Is this new errata? The only clarification I have seen is
>
> I think he's referring to the stealth, nto the superior bit. Card text:
> "Master. Put this card in play. Tremere get +1 stealth when attempting
> actions that require Thaumaturgy. "
Correct. Tremere (only) get +1 stealth on Tha actions.
Any vampire with tha gets to play tha cards at superior in combat.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:08:57 GMT, ELDB Dave <eldb...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>>>>>>> Derek. Derek. You know full well you can retrieve a Master Discipline>> card>>>> from your Hand, Library, or Ash Heap after Diablerie. Yummy tasty.>>>
>>> Hm. Never really looked at it before. Amusing. I guess I don't eat
>>> enough vampires. :)
>>>
>>> (That, or I've almost totally lost my mind here.)>>
>> Derek! You must be full of it...you KNOW that here in Atlanta you are
>> the diablerie king, dude. ;)>
> Having your own guys get munched repeatedly does NOT qualify as
> "diablerie king", sorry. :)
Well, when you keep threatening to beat up all the voters, yer asking
for it. =)
Nevermind the Pulse/ForceOfWill/Conditioning/DayOp unblockable bleeds of
8. Those poor saps in torpor are on the Eat Me Up Please special. =)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta