Average Game Length in Turns

How about everyone count the number of turns their next game(s) of vtes take(s), and then post it in this thread. then after a bunch of results have come in we (I?) can do some statistics with this data. don't forget to mention things like number of players in the game, CL/NCL, timed or not, etc. approximate duration in time might also be interesting... come on everyone, start counting! salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > How about everyone count the number of turns their next game(s) of > vtes take(s), and then post it in this thread. then after a bunch of > results have come in we (I?) can do some statistics with this data. > > don't forget to mention things like number of players in the game, > CL/NCL, timed or not, etc. > approximate duration in time might also be interesting... > > come on everyone, start counting! A lot but not all of the JOL games have Game History text files that keep track of what each player did on each of their turns. That is... if the moderator bothered to do it. Most don't I think. I'm fairly anal about it so I always do so. Therefore, any games that *I* have moderated will show you *exactly* how many turns each game lasted. I'll have a look and see and maybe post the results tomorrow. Cheers, WES

salem wrote: > How about everyone count the number of turns their next game(s) of > vtes take(s), and then post it in this thread. then after a bunch of > results have come in we (I?) can do some statistics with this data. > > don't forget to mention things like number of players in the game, > CL/NCL, timed or not, etc. > approximate duration in time might also be interesting... For your survey : Had a great game last night in Portsmouth over a few beers. Me > Legbiter > Garry Scarlett > Anklebiter > John Keetch We started at approx 7.50pm and the game went till 10.00. Really was a good one, dominated by combat but with some s+b and votes in the mix. Me 3Vps (GW) Garry Scarlett 2Vps Can't recall the exact no. of turns but thinking back I would bet it was 15-16. No silly CL or time limit of course :o) Rob -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Wes wrote: > A lot but not all of the JOL games have Game History text files that keep > track of what each player did on each of their turns. > > That is... if the moderator bothered to do it. Most don't I think. > > I'm fairly anal about it so I always do so. Therefore, any games that *I* > have moderated will show you *exactly* how many turns each game lasted. I'll > have a look and see and maybe post the results tomorrow. FYI: In games JOL135 - JOL178, 22 games were finished (the others were either abandoned or the conclusion could not be determined from the state/history/log files). Number of turns: Mean: 14.05 Median: 14.5 Stdev: 5.4 Min: 7 Max: 25 Values: 135 14 136 Abandoned 137 15 138 16 139 18 140 Abandoned 141 Abandoned 142 Abandoned 143 Abandoned 144 18 145 25 146 9 147 7 148 Abandoned 149 Indeterminate 150 Abandoned 151 Abandoned 152 8 153 Abandoned 154 7 155 Abandoned 156 14 157 8 158 Abandoned 159 19 160 Abandoned 161 15 162 Abandoned 163 Abandoned 164 Abandoned 165 Abandoned 166 11 167 15 168 Abandoned 169 Abandoned 170 Abandoned 171 Abandoned 172 20 173 7 174 17 175 8 176 14 177 Abandoned 178 24 -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:44:49 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >Wes wrote: >> A lot but not all of the JOL games have Game History text files that keep >> track of what each player did on each of their turns. >> >> That is... if the moderator bothered to do it. Most don't I think. >> >> I'm fairly anal about it so I always do so. Therefore, any games that *I* >> have moderated will show you *exactly* how many turns each game lasted. I'll >> have a look and see and maybe post the results tomorrow. > >FYI: > >In games JOL135 - JOL178, 22 games were finished (the others were either abandoned >or the conclusion could not be determined from the state/history/log files). any idea on how many players were in each game? [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:44:49 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> >>In games JOL135 - JOL178, 22 games were finished (the others were either abandoned >>or the conclusion could not be determined from the state/history/log files). > > any idea on how many players were in each game? Five in each except 169 and 173, which had four each. (169 was abandoned, so didn't figure into the stats). [ quoted text not captured ]

Any figures for what turn they were abandoned on? in particular was length a factor? [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Not all abandoned games indicated on which turns they were abandoned. The following did, however: 148 17 153 8 155 5 158 8 160 8 162 14 163 14 164 9 165 22 168 15 169 27 170 4 171 16 177 7 Mean: 12.43 Median: 11.5 Stdev: 6.65 Min: 4 Max: 27 So no, it doesn't look like length was a factor. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > Not all abandoned games indicated on which turns they were abandoned. > The following did, however: <snip> > So no, it doesn't look like length was a factor. Well... Some moderators won't post the "final state" as the game finishes. So for example you might have a game where everyone remaining at that point decides to concede the game to one strong player and then they all forget about it. It might therefore *look* like it was abandoned, but it was only the actual recording of information near the very end that was abandoned... this seems to happen a lot actually. But that probably isn't true for most of those games. Frankly, I am surprised to see so many abandoned games. And not very impressed! This has not traditionally been a problem for me, and as most people know I am probably one of the more prolific JOL players/moderators. Still... I have to wonder what happened to the players in all of those games... Cheers, WES

Wes wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > >>Not all abandoned games indicated on which turns they were abandoned. >>The following did, however: > > > <snip> > >>So no, it doesn't look like length was a factor. > > > Well... Some moderators won't post the "final state" as the game > finishes. So for example you might have a game where everyone remaining > at that point decides to concede the game to one strong player and then > they all forget about it. It might therefore *look* like it was > abandoned, but it was only the actual recording of information near the > very end that was abandoned... this seems to happen a lot actually. Yes, but when the logs, game states, and game histories offer no clues to distinguish between conceded games and abandoned games, I classified the game as abandoned. Some games were conceded (and the concession was indicated in the game state or history), and those were counted as completed games. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > Yes, but when the logs, game states, and game histories offer no clues > to distinguish between conceded games and abandoned games, I classified > the game as abandoned. Yeah, there's pretty much no way to tell except maybe emailing the original players and asking them. I suspect most of them did finish though, for whatever that's worth (ie nothing). Cheers, WES

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:59:44 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:44:49 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> >>>In games JOL135 - JOL178, 22 games were finished (the others were either abandoned >>>or the conclusion could not be determined from the state/history/log files). >> >> any idea on how many players were in each game? > >Five in each except 169 and 173, which had four each. (169 was abandoned, so >didn't figure into the stats). Just had a 4 player game last night. 60-90 card libraries. 3hr approx in duration, 14 turns. (i got 3vp w/ a tremere deck that used Drain essense...nyer to the nay-sayers!) [ quoted text not captured ]

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:uhq6gv8glk1igoie6...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] ...Even a blind Nut will find a Squirrel every once in a while. ;-) DaveZ Atom Weaver

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:44:22 -0400, "R. David Zopf" <atomw...@yahoo.com> scrawled: >> (i got 3vp w/ a tremere deck that used Drain essense...nyer to the >> nay-sayers!) >> > >...Even a blind Nut will find a Squirrel every once in a while. ;-) are you trying to make some comment about my testicles? :/ i will admit i only actually _played_ one drain essence, and that was only because the opposing vampire (sacha vykos, IIRC), played inferior telepathic tracking to press, and then maneuver to long. :) but it did work a treat. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

"robtreasure" <robtreasure....@web2news.net> wrote in message news:<4466...@web2news.com>... > salem wrote: > > How about everyone count the number of turns their next game(s) of > > vtes take(s), and then post it in this thread. then after a bunch of > > results have come in we (I?) can do some statistics with this data. > > > > don't forget to mention things like number of players in the game, > > CL/NCL, timed or not, etc. > > approximate duration in time might also be interesting... > > For your survey : > > Had a great game last night in Portsmouth over a few beers. > Me > Legbiter > Garry Scarlett > Anklebiter > John Keetch > > We started at approx 7.50pm and the game went till 10.00. Really was a > good one, dominated by combat but with some s+b and votes in the mix. > > Me 3Vps (GW) Garry Scarlett 2Vps > > Can't recall the exact no. of turns but thinking back I would bet it was > 15-16. > > No silly CL or time limit of course :o) > > Rob Hiya guys, Further info for your survey: Last WE, at Grand Vaulderie tournament: Played 3 R+F. 2H time limit in the prelims, 2.5h in the finals. I've only played 5 player tables. 4 tables I've played at: round 1: 15 turns. I was ousted by Denis after 1 VP, right on the verge of timelimit.2 players leftover in the game. Timeout after 2 hours round 2: 15 turns. (5VP sweep). Finished in about 1.5h. round 3: 13turns. Took 4 VP, missed one (my pred died to soon)Game took about 1h15min. Finals: 17 turns (or was it 18?)Took about 2h.15min. I believe (Miller, can you confirm this?I know you kept track of it) Average: 15+15+13+17=60turns/4rounds=15 turns per round. Time average is kinda silly, since the finals went beyond the time limit for the other rounds. Personally, I believe the most important nuance in calculating this "average"number of turns,is that there is an important difference between: "the number of turns *you* play", and "the number of turns the game lasts". In the simple calculation of averages, it's is simply not taken into account that the game just doesn't last the same number of turns for all players. Ergo, I still think it's a realy bad idea to base a time limit for turns on such calculations. I'm not sure, but I think I saw Miller keep track of more stuff. With any luck, he also kept the #of turns on other tables. Greetz Jo

> Hiya guys, > Further info for your survey: > Last WE, at Grand Vaulderie tournament: > Played 3 R+F. > 2H time limit in the prelims, 2.5h in the finals. > I've only played 5 player tables. > 4 tables I've played at: > > round 1: 15 turns. I was ousted by Denis after 1 VP, right on the > verge of timelimit.2 players leftover in the game. Timeout after 2 > hours > round 2: 15 turns. (5VP sweep). Finished in about 1.5h. > round 3: 13turns. Took 4 VP, missed one (my pred died to soon)Game > took about 1h15min. > Finals: 17 turns (or was it 18?)Took about 2h.15min. I believe > (Miller, can you confirm this?I know you kept track of it) 16 turns, in 2h26, for a time limit of 2:30 final began at 7:37 first ousted at 8:57 second at 9:33 third at 10:01 last at 10:03 Miller [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > Just had a 4 player game last night. > 60-90 card libraries. > > 3hr approx in duration, 14 turns. > > (i got 3vp w/ a tremere deck that used Drain essense...nyer to the > nay-sayers!) So no 'good' combat on that table then :o) [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <uhq6gv8glk1igoie6...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about: >(i got 3vp w/ a tremere deck that used Drain essense...nyer to the >nay-sayers!) 2 Drain Essence does not a combat deck make. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<bdhd0...@enews4.newsguy.com>... > Yeah, there's pretty much no way to tell except maybe emailing the > original players and asking them. I can shed light on one "abandoned" game--JOL142. The gamestate ends at the end of 13.1. After searching my memory and the server log, I can say with certainty that the actual game ended during 13.2, when I ousted the last remaining player. So that game lasted 13 turns. cheers, jon pleased to have decreased Type II error

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:m407gvcj2ul39a798...@4ax.com... > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:44:22 -0400, "R. David Zopf" > <atomw...@yahoo.com> scrawled: > > >> (i got 3vp w/ a tremere deck that used Drain essense...nyer to the > >> nay-sayers!) > >> > > > >...Even a blind Nut will find a Squirrel every once in a while. ;-) > > are you trying to make some comment about my testicles? :/ > LOL! Actually, I was merely questioning both your sanity and visual acuity... But your angle is much better DaveZ Atom Weaver

On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 08:51:32 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> scrawled: >In message <uhq6gv8glk1igoie6...@4ax.com>, >salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about: > >>(i got 3vp w/ a tremere deck that used Drain essense...nyer to the >>nay-sayers!) > >2 Drain Essence does not a combat deck make. it's 5 Drain Essence, and 3 Shotgun Ritual. and a bunch of theft of vitae and a couple of movements of the mind and a couple of apportations. and i never said it was a combat deck. :P (and i came 3rd of 19 just 2 days ago at the Newcastle (Australia) Qualifier with the deck, too....) [ quoted text not captured ]

tonight's games: 4 player giovanni>Baali>ani/for>tzim Giovanni 2vp, tzim 2vp 11 turns 1hr 40mins 4 player obf/dom>trem>gargoyle>ventrue obf/dom 4vps 10 turns 1hr 20mins [ quoted text not captured ]

more games: 4 player, 18 turns Graverobbing Setites 2vps Provisions Combat/Bloat Tremere/Gargoyles Steel Vitae 2vps 3 player, 15 turns (!) Malk/!Nos Kiss the Babies (Clio's Kiss and Political Seizure Lasombra deck) Tegyrius the Justicar and his Fida'i 3vps GW [ quoted text not captured ]

3 player, 12 turns weenie pre w/ rafisto ghouls 3vps GW samantha multi-rush gangrel torpor loop 4 player 10 turns ventrue antitribu vote 1vp tzim ani/aus wall ravnos mass horrid reality ravnos week bleeds 3vp GW 5 player, 14 turns, 3 hours Provisions of the Minion Tap (assamite provisions bloat) Puppet Masters (setites with nec, mummies, puppetteers) 4vp GW weenie pre w/ rafisto ghouls Created Dominion (Create dom Gargoyles) 1vp Force of Hell (Giotto force of will) 4 player, 13 turns, 1.5 hours Bleed of the Sabbat (Tzim bleed w/ Blood of the Sabbat) 2vps Assamite rush Gangrel rush w/ dom Toreador Aching Beauty 2vp [ quoted text not captured ]

4 player 2hrs 30mins 14 turns Gangrel rush w/graverobbing 3vps GW Madness Network/Using the Advantage Samantha Multi-Rush 1vp Nos/!Nos disguised weapons. 4 player 1hr 30mins 11 turns BloodBrotherAnarchs Assamite Rush Tremere w/cel (Group 1) Gangrel w/pre bleed 4vp GW 2 player (yes, i know..) 25mins 8 turns Cryptic Mission 2vp GW !Ventrue Anarch votes (work in progress response to the !Vent newsletter challenge) 2 player 40mins 9 turns Lasombra Bleed/Vote 2vp GW Samantha Multi-Rush 4 player 1hr 20mins 13 turns Tzimisce 'classic' Squeek of Doom (For/Ani) Created Dominion (Create Gargoyles w/dom) 4vps GW Tegyrius The Justicar [ quoted text not captured ]

2 player 1hr 10 turns Tremere aus/tha 2vp GW Toreador Tap and Bleed 2 player 32mins 15 turns Gangrel w/presence Magi allies 2vp GW 3 player 1hr 25mins 15 turns Tha/Vic 1vp Tha 2vp GW Baali w/fortitude [ quoted text not captured ]

3 player 1hr 30mins 13 turns Provisions Bloat Created Dominion 3vps GW Baltimore Purge w/Nec 4 player 2hrs 15mins 16 turns Nuclear Reactor (Reactionary Ventrue antitribu deck with Life Boon/Dramatic Upheaval) 3vps GW Using the Madness Advantage (Madness Network/Using the Advantage/Reversal of Fortunes) Classic Tzim (now with a Sniper Rifle!) Force of Hell (Giotto/Baali w/ fortitude..and a hint of Salubri) 1vp [ quoted text not captured ]

5 player 2hrs 40mins 14 turns Gangrel w/dom 1vp Brujah vote/bruise All Blood Brothers plus Jimmy, Anarch combat/bleed thing 3vps GW Tzim/Gio War Ghoul/Ambrosius plus Talbot's chainsaw. 1vp Rachel and Tyler show (Rachel Brandywine with Homunculous slaps down many Baltmiore Purges using Madness network and Homunc untaps. Tyler then eats everyone.) 4 player 1hr 50mins 11 turns Malk S&B&Tricks (Petra Resonance to give his prey 3 pool from his grand prey..oops!) Brujah Banishment Vote 1vp IRA (anarchs w/ molotovs and car bombs. gangrel ani/for plus splash of cel) !Tremere Intercept/TT/Walk 3vps GW [ quoted text not captured ]

damnit, only games of 3 players again tonight. 3 player, 1 hr, 11 turns nos/!nos setite bleed/vote/corrupt (toolbox?) samantha multi-rush 3vps GW 3 player, 3hrs 5mins, 21 turns ohmygodithurtspleasemakeitstop setite ventrue/daughters vote 2vps GW Tegyrius The Justicar 1vp 3 players, 50mins, 10 turns tzimisce bleed 3vps GW Tremere revelations/seeds madness network of the upper hand (malk/!nos) [ quoted text not captured ]

5 players 16 turns (time not kept) Kiasyd toolbox 1vp Euro-Brujah 1vp Kahina vote Gargoyles Rock 3vp GW (Gambit....accepted!) Weenie Ravnos Week of Nightmares bleed. 4 players 19 turns 3hrs Hunterz (Wendell, Muddled, Millicent, Jake...and some escaped mental patients) 3vp GW Kahina vote take 2 (tweaked between games) 1vp !Tor + DoC bleed Kiasyd Toolbox [ quoted text not captured ]