CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>Jyhad has proven a remarkably well-balanced game. One card, however seems
>so good that normally the only limits on its use - in almost any deck -
>come from deck building limitations (x of any card) or the number owned.
>
>That card is WwEF (Wake with Evening's Freshness).
[...]
A case has been made, by counting commons and comparing with White Wolf's game,
that WwEF should actually be a Thaumaturgy card (like Concealed Weapon should
be a disciplineless card). I'm curious to see what changes (if any) are made
to these cards in the Revised edition.
Alec
--
Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/personnel/ahabig/
Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
>>Jyhad has proven a remarkably well-balanced game. One card, however seems
>>so good that normally the only limits on its use - in almost any deck -
>>come from deck building limitations (x of any card) or the number owned.
>>
>>That card is WwEF (Wake with Evening's Freshness).>A case has been made, by counting commons and comparing with White Wolf's game,>that WwEF should actually be a Thaumaturgy card (like Concealed Weapon should
>be a disciplineless card). I'm curious to see what changes (if any) are made
>to these cards in the Revised edition.
Actually, I think the extra Thaumaturgy card should be Blood Rage... look
at it! A fortitude attack card that cannot be prevented by cards that
require fortitude? A near parallel of Blood Fury? Obvious thaumaturgy.
But anyway, I don't think that wakes are that powerful. I have many many
wakes, and I end up almost never using them. Depending on deck strategy,
they can be near useless. I hardly ever take actions and tend to get 4-5
minions out... I almost never need to wake. Most of mine are sitting in
my spare card box and are prime trading fodder <grin>
Judy
--
"We have no statement to issue, we have no schedule, we have no bananas."
an aide to Rep. Dan Rostenkowski, on an answering machine message
recorded the day his boss was indicted on corruption charges.
*** jcoo...@eng.umd.edu ***
curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes:
>Jyhad has proven a remarkably well-balanced game. One card, however seems
>so good that normally the only limits on its use - in almost any deck -
>come from deck building limitations (x of any card) or the number owned.>That card is WwEF (Wake with Evening's Freshness).
and Ascendance, Sudden Reversal, Sport Bike, Saturday Night Special,
Dodge, The Barrens, Elysium, Effective Management, etc.
[explanation deleted]
I have not found this to be the case. My card-poor friends have bested
me with no WwEF's, and I myself have taken WwEFs out of more than a few
decks to make room for more useful cards. (Typically in Horde decks
and in very strong Political Decks).
>The solution? Increase the cost for WwEF! Make it cost one (vampire)
>blood - on a par with most untap cards. A stronger, and also plausible,
>restriction, would be to make it cost one pool, as with the disciplineless
>masters that permit tapping/untapping.>Comments?
>
>Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig) writes:
>CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:>>Jyhad has proven a remarkably well-balanced game. One card, however seems
>>so good that normally the only limits on its use - in almost any deck -
>>come from deck building limitations (x of any card) or the number owned.
>>
>>That card is WwEF (Wake with Evening's Freshness).>[...]>A case has been made, by counting commons and comparing with White Wolf's game,
>that WwEF should actually be a Thaumaturgy card (like Concealed Weapon should
>be a disciplineless card). I'm curious to see what changes (if any) are made
>to these cards in the Revised edition.
The "missing" Thaumaturgy card is Blood Rage. This also eliminates the
extra Fortitude card. Striking with Fortitude, hrmph, whoever heard of such
a thing?
WwEF is disciplineless. No Disciplined cards are "not replace[d] until after
combat". It works just fine.
L. Scott
In article <reynolds....@shazam.cs.iastate.edu>, reyn...@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) writes...
>>I have just started the VtM game and am
>>totally impressed with Jyhad's faithfulness to the original.
>>WwEF kinda stands out as wrong.>
> Everyone I know who has play the RPG that JYHAD was based on is pretty
>upset at how the card game is so unlike the RPG. A few things that stand
>out:
>
> Aggravated damage can never, ever send a vampire to torpor. Also, torpor
>is defined as "having no blood." You can't be in torpor with blood.
> How can Crusher not "totally kill" any lesser vampire he encounters?
>He moves at 5 times human speed, can bounce small bullets and can smash
>through brick walls. Not some of the time -- all of the time.
> Why is it a major effort for a Methuselah to get guns for it's minions?
>I know plenty of mere Princes who have access to the police armory.
> Why can the Prince of Seattle confront the Prince of Maimi when vampires
>rarely travel, and why would they fight each other when they both maintain
>private armies? Why do they do this when one of them, carrying a Deer
>Rifle, was attempting Legal Manipulations?
> Why can't you use your Mob Connections for anything other than having
>them form a circle and say, "keep fighting"?
> Why are Justicars weaker than other super-old (10) vampires? They are
>supposed to be the strongest.
You are being far too critical, I think. It is not at all easy to
translate a RPG into a card game. In the card game, there is no Game Master
(or StoryTeller, whichever you prefer) to moderate the action and maintain
play balance.
If you wish, you can think of some actions as perhaps being indirect
combat. For instance, the Princes of Chicago and Miami may be battling
behind the scenes with each other, and they each lose blood respective to
their loss of influence in the Masquerade, or Jyhad. Alternatively, you could
say it is the time of the Jyhad, and normal rules no longer apply to vampires,
who will travel as far as their masters require to attack whomever they
wish.
With respect to Justicars, at least, it is certainly not the case that
only the most powerful vampires will become Justicars. The role playing game
makes it quite clear that those clans who are not at the peak of their power
may have weaker, or truly wimpy, vampires chosen as their Justicars. The
selection of Justicars is a political contest in the role playing game,
exactly as it is in the card game.
As for Crusher killing most other vampires without a second thought -
well, yes he would. However, game balance necessarily comes into play here.
I see many criticisms, but few alternatives. It's just not as easy to
directly translate the game as one could hope. Getting vampires into the
active region is a major undertaking of both time and blood. If vampires
were burned as easily as you suggest, it would be a very unbalanced game,
as whoever got a 8+ vampire out first would be tough to beat, and a small
vampire strategy deck would become untenable.
>
> I've kind of figured out a few things that sort of do help, though.
>0 JYHAD blood is about 2 RPG blood, and every JYHAD point of damage is
>5 points of RPG damage. This way a normal human (Tasha) who takes a point
>of JYHAD damage would "maimed" and effectively out of the game.
> A typical JYHAD combat lasts for 2-4 rounds in the RPG (the time it
>takes a person to do enough damage to kill someone else.)
err...I suppose. Of course, 5 RPG damage is critical damage to a
vampire, and he would have to burn 5 blood in order to restore himself to full
health. Of course, in the RPG, 5th gens (10 capacity vamps) can hold about
40 blood max (I believe, this is off the top of my head), so maybe it does
convert well. I just don't bother to think about it. It isn't important
to bother converting. The card game is *BASED* on the RPG, it is not
an exact translation of it.
> Actual generation is 15-blood_capacity. This puts Catiff at 14th,
>and everyone else at 13th-5th. I'm not sure if this is right (aren't
>Meth's supposed to be 5th?)
This is precisely correct. Methuselah's are 4th gen, not 5th, and
the role playing game implies that there may be some pathetic vampires of
the 14th generation. In the RPG, of course, Caitiff can be of any generation,
theoretically, but Jyhad has merely converted Caitiff into these wimpy
vampires, which could well be a conscious reflection of their influence and
power in the final struggle which is relatively weak because of their
clanless status.
> Torpor isn't really torpor -- it's "a state of being demoralized"
>and useless to a Methuselah. So, when a vampire is sent to torpor, it
>isn't really lying helpless at the victor's feet. It's run away to
>nurse it's wounds until someone convinces it to come back. This explains
>why claws can cause torpor.
Also, in the RPG, aggravated damage is unhealable except by time
and blood expenditure, rather than mere instaneous healing by blood
expenditure. Putting the vampire in torpor reflects the time aspect of
healing aggravated damage.
Kerry
Now here's a fun inconsistancy I mentioned to Jim, Skaff & Richard --
Archons (in J/VtES) are immune to Bloodhunt; Justicars are *not*.
In VtM, they both are (presuming Archons are carrying out a Justicar's
judgement).
Jim's response -- they don't want to get their hands dirty. :)
Best,
-CS
In article <3iig58$s...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, que...@u.washington.edu (Don Sowell) says:
>>> Recently, at a Magic Tournament (my heart lies with Jyhad), I
>>picked up a program for an upcoming Jyhad tournament. I looked
>>up the rules and surprised to see the only "restricted" was
>>Misdirection. 'couplea heavy bleeders and its over. There's
>>your unbalanced card. I do, however, agree that WwEF should be
>>a Thamaturgy card. I have just started the VtM game and am>>totally impressed with Jyhad's faithfulness to the original.
>>WwEF kinda stands out as wrong.>> WwEF a Thaumaturgy card? Interesting idea except for several problems:
>
> 1) Fortitude has an extra common - Blood Fury which is a near copy of
>Thau's Blood Rage. Seems obvious that this should be a Thaumaturgy card.
>
> 2) No card that requires a skill has the proviso that it can't be
>replaced until after combat.
>
> Don Sowell
>
I agree with Don. WwEF a Thaumaturgy? God I hope not. Only the Brujah
are more dangerous in combat than the Tremere(Who are loaded with Thaum).
So you saying that you want to give primarily only the Tremere the ability
to wake up, block (remember Tremere are load with Auspex which means they
have a ton of reaction and intercept cards at thier disposal) and enter
combat with your vampires. So if WwEF were made Thaum. then tremere
players could bleed with no worry about none tremere players blocking
because very few of them have Thaum. Don't forget that the Tremere have
quite a bit of dominate so they could bleed you for large bleeds.
No the Tremere are arguably the most fearsome clan in the game, what thay
DON'T need is virtually exclusive access to WwEF.
Chris
In article <3ictvr$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) says:
>
>My proposal was to make the cost of WwEF (currently nothing) commensurate
>with the benefit (a free action). I agree restricting WwEF is a dud
>solution, for exactly the reason you mention.
>
I guess I could live with an _apropriate_ cost. Say maybe 1 blood.
>
>Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)