Drawing Out The Beast...

William Pyle wrote: > > I've got a strategy question.... > > what makes DotB a good card? I can't remember who or > where specifically, but everyone seems to think this is a good > card for a combat deck. ok, it limits your opponent to pretty > much letting you set the range to close, and keeps em > from using equipment. > > I usually see DotB in a nos/!nos combat deck... pot/ani/ > maybe obf... but what, or how, do these decks do against > other pot-combat decks - pot/pro, or pot/for?? especially > with DotB. "here, we'll fight at close range and you can > have +1more hand damage with which to burn me" if they're > pot/pro, and "ok, I'll do at least one that you can't prevent" if > they're pot/for. dont' get me wrong, it's not a BAD card... > but I dont' see it as being as key a card as say, IG. > The +1 hand damage is offset by the 1 damage the card deals (make sure you have ANI) which is unpreventable. IG is useless if they maneuver to long range. In fact, a DoTB/IG combo is basically saying, "sit still while I punch you and there's *nothing* you can do about it." (lousy fortitude...) And then there's Song of Serenity to take back that 1 hand damage. All in all, an ani/pot combat deck without DoTB is a bad ani/pot combat deck. In cel/pot decks, you get Flash and stuff for maneuvering. While not as good as DoTB, Flash is necessary. In ani/pot you have no maneuvers. But a single DoTB keeps them from playing how ever many maneuvers they might have (and keeps them from cycling cards, too). -Chris

I've got a strategy question.... what makes DotB a good card? I can't remember who or where specifically, but everyone seems to think this is a good card for a combat deck. ok, it limits your opponent to pretty much letting you set the range to close, and keeps em from using equipment. I usually see DotB in a nos/!nos combat deck... pot/ani/ maybe obf... but what, or how, do these decks do against other pot-combat decks - pot/pro, or pot/for?? especially with DotB. "here, we'll fight at close range and you can have +1more hand damage with which to burn me" if they're pot/pro, and "ok, I'll do at least one that you can't prevent" if they're pot/for. dont' get me wrong, it's not a BAD card... but I dont' see it as being as key a card as say, IG. of course, my above arguments apply only to other pot-based combat decks... DotB is just fine against Tha, or non-combat decks.... Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

In article <367073f2...@news.mindspring.com>, William Pyle <wp...@mindspring.com> wrote: >I've got a strategy question.... > >what makes DotB a good card? I can't remember who or >where specifically, but everyone seems to think this is a good >card for a combat deck. ok, it limits your opponent to pretty >much letting you set the range to close, and keeps em >from using equipment. [snip 8<] One of the main problems in a close range combat deck is how many maneuvers to include. Too many and you'll hand clog, too few, and they'll never do you any good. DotB completely trumps your opponent's maneuver attempts, no matter how many he plays, and can be freely cycled in any combat. The flexibility in deck construction and play this allows is huge. In practice the extra damage you take often doesn't matter, as you can play Taste of Vitae to allow for it, and if you're facing another potence deck the one point of damage difference won't likely matter. Of course, it's not such a clear cut case, as that extra damage can be a pain, and it's easier to build crypts out of vampires with pot/cel or pot/obf than pot/ani. In general I tend to like DotB best when it's combined with either Fortitude, or Hidden Lurker (decks that use such things often have larger vampires anyway, for one thing). -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

William Pyle wrote: "what makes DotB a good card? I can't remember who or where specifically, but everyone seems to think this is a good card for a combat deck. ok, it limits your opponent to pretty much letting you set the range to close, and keeps em from using equipment." To throw in without being too redundant, DotB is a good card because it makes your strategy work. If you are building a close range, Immortal Grapple based combat deck, you _need_ to be at close range, or your deck is pointless. You have three options: 1. Hope your opponents don't manuver. This is sketchy and will get you killed. 2. Use your own manuvers. This is a good option for Cel or Pro based decks, cause they have multi purpose manuver cards and thus are less likely to find themselves with either too many or too few manuver cards. Other disciplines (like Obf) have a bit more trouble with their less versitile manuvers, as it is really important to have them, but if you don't need them (cause your opponents don't manuver), they are difficult to cycle and can jam your hand if you have too many, but you might never draw them when you need them if you have too few. 3. Use DotB. You can always play DotB, regardless of what your opponent does (i.e. it will never jam your hand), it completely prevents your opponent from doing what he wants to do (i.e. manuver away), and makes your deck work the way it is supposed to (i.e. you are always at close range). Yes, it gives your opponent extra +1 hand damage, which makes a bit of difference against, say, the Gangrel, but if you don't have For, the Gangrel are going to kill you anyway. Against non combat decks, DotB will be always useful, and the extra damage won't make any difference (as you can play Taste to get the blood back). Against long range combat decks, the extra hand damage won't matter, as you will be denying them their main strategy, and you will have the combat advantage, as you are using yours. Against other close range combat decks, you don't have to play the DotB, so it is moot. That, and there is the mythical "All DotB/Form of Mist" deck that gets into combat, plays N+1 DotB (where N = the amount of blood on the opposing vampire) at superior, and then plays Strike: Combat Ends to send the opposing vampire to torpor with no possible way to avoid it. Very similar to the "All Weather Control, All the Time" deck of legend. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "I'm a street walking cheeta with a heart full of napalm. I'm the renegade son of a nuclear A-bomb." -Iggy Pop

this is pretty much a reply to the 3 reponses I already got.... I understand the usefullness of DotB against non-combat decks, certainly, and even more so against long-rangers. my main problem still comes, tho, from other combat decks. In our group, I guess we just have a high concentration of combat decks, mostly hand-damage, too.... our last couple of games have had 3 close-range combat decks (1 rush/2 intercept), 1 cailean deck, and one vote deck... but anyway, I guess that you just have to do more damage to them than they do to you (suck against FOR, tho), and it doesn't jam your hand at all, which is of course a good thing. thanks, guys Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

In article <3671a425...@news.mindspring.com>, wp...@mindspring.com wrote: > this is pretty much a reply to the 3 reponses I already got.... > > I understand the usefullness of DotB against non-combat > decks, certainly, and even more so against long-rangers. 'Kay. Good. I myself am still sometimes nervous about the whole +1 hand damage thing too, but if Peter says it's good, I'll believe him. Again, too much choking on Gangrel decks in my early days... > my main problem still comes, tho, from other combat decks. > > In our group, I guess we just have a high concentration of combat > decks, mostly hand-damage, too.... our last couple of games have > had 3 close-range combat decks (1 rush/2 intercept), 1 cailean > deck, and one vote deck... Okay! Got it! Play Ventrue presence-bleed! Fortitude & a little Majesty for combat defense, and Obedience & Deflection for more combat defense/bleed defense. Throw in a few votes, but keep it to bleeding/tapping (with Majesty/Freak Drive/Mind Numb?) and so on. This is *so* bad for combat decks in general, as you have basically all of the really good anti-combat strategies in one deck: Survive (Fortitude), Prevent (with Obedience), and S:CE. Add in a little pool gain with Minion Taps/Blood Dolls, and no Rush deck in the world (well...) is going to be able to handle you for quite a while... Or you could play a weenie bleed deck. Kinda boring, but laughing when they torporize/burn your minions is funny. > but anyway, I guess that you just have to do more damage > to them than they do to you (suck against FOR, tho), and > it doesn't jam your hand at all, which is of course a good thing. Fortitude sucks. Well, unless you're playing <plug> Tremere combat </plug>. Hehe. If everyone's playing Fortitude, you really just need to stop playing combat for a while. Especially Potence combat. This is frustrating, but it's more annoying to be really entertained with your new Nosferatu deck showcasing all the goodness of Ebanezer Roush, and then proceed to rush him directly into torpor (do not pass go, do not collect $200) when you go after a Gangrel who just so happens to have Skin of Steel & some Claws after you attempt to dish out something in the neighborhood of 11 aggravated damage. Sigh...and poor Peter...who had a very bad time involving a Gangrel weenie and Sheldon, I believe. I guess if everyone's playing Fortitude, play something that doesn't care what their combat strategy. Or, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Play Fortitude too, just do different stuff so combat isn't your main strategy. Have I repeated myself enough yet? Sorry...I'll stop now... Xian, thinking of Marge Simpson repeating things, cause "it's the only way you'll remember..." "they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain lion on crack" --greensea -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

William Pile wrote: "my main problem still comes, tho, from other combat decks. In our group, I guess we just have a high concentration of combat decks, mostly hand-damage, too.... our last couple of games have had 3 close-range combat decks (1 rush/2 intercept), 1 cailean deck, and one vote deck... " I'm failing to see your confusion, as you have answered your own question pretty well. If your opponents are playing other close range combat decks, you have zero need to play DotB. If they want to hit you with hand damage, and you want to hit them with hand damage, why would you bother playing DotB against them? You are correct. You wouldn't. If you are in an environement with lots of close range combat, do yourself a favor and take out all of your DotB. If your opponents are playing ranged combat decks (Brujah Pitch, Tremere, some sort of gun deck), DotB makes you win. If your opponents are playing non combat decks that may or may not have manuvers for combat avoidance, DotB makes you win. If your opponents are playing the same sort of deck you are (presumably close range combat), then DotB is not needed, so you either neglect to put them in your deck or you play them for the extra point of unpreventable damage and to keep them from pressing to end (if you aren't going to get killed). [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian wrote: "'Kay. Good. I myself am still sometimes nervous about the whole +1 hand damage thing too, but if Peter says it's good, I'll believe him. Again, too much choking on Gangrel decks in my early days..." The +1 hand damage isn't that big of a deal, in reality. Against decks that don't do extra hand damage in general (long range decks, non combat decks), you will be taking 2 damage instead of 1 which isn't that bad, especially if you are packing Tastes. Against other Potence combat decks (Nosferatu, Brujah), you have no need to play DotB, cause they want to be at close range too (unless they are afraid of you, in which case the +1 hand damage you give them to keep them from running away probably won't hurt much), and the Gangrel, well, you don't want to fight with them anyway, so don't get into a fight with them, don't play the DotB, and pray for a dodge :-) Occasionaly, you might end up playing DotB on some Cel based deck, grapple them, and get pummled for 6 hand damage with a Blur, but if you are getting them with a DotB/IG, you should probably only be doing it if you can KO them with your first punch (or, again, be packing Taste). "Okay! Got it! Play Ventrue presence-bleed! Fortitude & a little Majesty for combat defense, and Obedience & Deflection for more combat defense/bleed defense. Throw in a few votes, but keep it to bleeding/tapping (with Majesty/Freak Drive/Mind Numb?) and so on. This is *so* bad for combat decks in general, as you have basically all of the really good anti-combat strategies in one deck: Survive (Fortitude), Prevent (with Obedience), and S:CE. Add in a little pool gain with Minion Taps/Blood Dolls, and no Rush deck in the world (well...) is going to be able to handle you for quite a while..." Totally. If you are looking for a deck to do well in an environment fraught with combat decks, the deck Xian mentions here is the way to go. Ventrue with lots of Majesty/Skin of Steel (10-12 of each?) and then heavy, Bonding backed bleeds. The Rush decks will be stymied. If there are intercept combat decks, well, they'll be a bit harder to deal with, but the Tapping action (Mind Numb?) is good for that as well. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <19981212173627...@ng149.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: > Xian wrote: [snip discussion of DotB] > "Okay! Got it! Play Ventrue presence-bleed! Fortitude & a little Majesty for > combat defense, and Obedience & Deflection for more combat defense/bleed > defense. Throw in a few votes, but keep it to bleeding/tapping (with > Majesty/Freak Drive/Mind Numb?) and so on. This is *so* bad for combat > decks > in general, as you have basically all of the really good anti-combat strategies > in one deck: Survive (Fortitude), Prevent (with Obedience), and S:CE. Add in > a little pool gain with Minion Taps/Blood Dolls, and no Rush deck in the world > (well...) is going to be able to handle you for quite a while..." > > Totally. If you are looking for a deck to do well in an environment fraught > with combat decks, the deck Xian mentions here is the way to go. Ventrue > with > lots of Majesty/Skin of Steel (10-12 of each?) and then heavy, Bonding > backed > bleeds. The Rush decks will be stymied. If there are intercept combat decks, > well, they'll be a bit harder to deal with, but the Tapping action (Mind Numb?) > is good for that as well. Hehe. I was trying to be thoughtful, cause he mentioned 4CL, and I figured that if you can't play 12 or so Skin of Steel, the Ventrue disciplines are the most redundant, in that Presence has Majesty, and at least one S:CE in Sabbat. Obedience is almost the same as S:CE, and 4 Skin of Steel + 4 Skin of Rock + 4 Rolling with the Punches or whatever is just about the same. (Not really, I know, but if you're playing 4CL...) Yeah, the intercept decks mentioned would be a little annoying, but if you have Majesty/Freak Drive in limited amounts, you can still vote and then bleed, or Mind Numb & then bleed, or whatever turns your crank. *Most* intercept decks, while they include WWEF, are not animalism intercept decks, and sitll wouldn't have more than 4 Cat's Guidance anyway. And as mentioned in a recent thread, by Jasper, I believe...or maybe you Peter, Rat's Warning & Guard Dogs suck to draw when you're being voted against or whatever. Xian [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian wrote: "Hehe. I was trying to be thoughtful, cause he mentioned 4CL, and I figured that if you can't play 12 or so Skin of Steel, the Ventrue disciplines are the most redundant, in that Presence has Majesty, and at least one S:CE in Sabbat." I don't think that he actually ever mentioned 4CL (either that or I have a complete mental block. Damn Gamma World mutations...), but in the light of that, yeah, the Ventrue are totally the way to go, if only for their complete redundancy. Under 4CL, the Rush deck's 4 Immortal Grapples will be completely outclassed by 4 Majesty, 4 Staredown, 4 (whataever that S:CE and do a point of damage is), 4 SoS and 4 Superior Mettle, as well as 4 Obedience. "*Most* intercept decks, while they include WWEF, are not animalism intercept decks, and sitll wouldn't have more than 4 Cat's Guidance anyway. And as mentioned in a recent thread, by Jasper, I believe...or maybe you Peter, Rat's Warning & Guard Dogs suck to draw when you're being voted against or whatever." Yeah, hey. What is the current state of interaction between WWEF and Mind Numb or that "You can't untap" card? [ quoted text not captured ]

On 13 Dec 1998 17:02:05 GMT, pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: > >Yeah, hey. What is the current state of interaction between WWEF and Mind Numb >or that "You can't untap" card? Wake wins since you're not untapping, you're merely playing cards AS IF you were untapped. -- Derek (replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: 8< >In our group, I guess we just have a high concentration of combat >decks, mostly hand-damage, too.... our last couple of games have >had 3 close-range combat decks (1 rush/2 intercept), 1 cailean >deck, and one vote deck... " > >I'm failing to see your confusion, as you have answered your own question >pretty well. If your opponents are playing other close range combat decks, you >have zero need to play DotB. If they want to hit you with hand damage, and you >want to hit them with hand damage, why would you bother playing DotB against >them? You are correct. You wouldn't. If you are in an environement with lots >of close range combat, do yourself a favor and take out all of your DotB. If >your opponents are playing ranged combat decks (Brujah Pitch, Tremere, some >sort of gun deck), DotB makes you win. If your opponents are playing non >combat decks that may or may not have manuvers for combat avoidance, DotB makes >you win. If your opponents are playing the same sort of deck you are >(presumably close range combat), then DotB is not needed, so you either neglect >to put them in your deck or you play them for the extra point of unpreventable >damage and to keep them from pressing to end (if you aren't going to get >killed). I know... that was my main question, that since we had so many combat decks, DotB wasn't doin me a whole lot of good... that's all I was really driving at there.. do you guys (anyone) play a kinda sideboard-type setup? we usually do, so we can (but usually end up not bothering to) tweak our decks a little depending on what everyone's playing... Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

William Pyle wrote: "do you guys (anyone) play a kinda sideboard-type setup? we usually do, so we can (but usually end up not bothering to) tweak our decks a little depending on what everyone's playing..." Nah. Generally most players I have run across (as well as myself) find "sideboarding" for Jyhad to be pretty contrary to the basic game concept. As opposed to Magic which is far more about "card vs card" (or, say, Star Wars which is about nothing _but_ "card vs card"), Jyhad is a game of "strategy vs strategy". Jyhad is about how Rush works against Stealth and Bleed or how Intercept works against Vote, not how card A can beat up card B. That, and sideboarding makes the anti-clan masters _way_ more powerful than they should be (anti-clan masters generally have very powerful effects that are balanced out by their extreme opportunity cost). Not to say that you are a bad person if your group likes sideboards. If it makes you happy, go with it. However, sideboards aren't a part of actual competetive Jyhad, and I don't think many folks use it them in general. On the other hand, a real important part of the game of Jyhad is "The Meta Game" (a phrase thrown about left and right around here), which generally refers to the evolution of decks between play sessions, rather than between hands. It works sort of the same way, but it is more of a "Hmm, there are lots of combat decks around here. How do I build a deck to do well in an environment with lots of combat decks?" sort of evolution than a "Hmm. Josh is playing with the Tremere tonight. I'd better get out my Letters from Vienna" sort of thing (as well as being more guesswork, as you don't really know what deck the guy next to you is going to be playing anyway--you have to work with trends and favored strategies, rather than concrete knowledge). For example, around here (long, long ago...), I discovered that Immortal Grapple made for really good combat decks, so I started playing effective, killer combat decks. This started a horrible combat deck arms race, and so to stay ahead of the curve, I developed a really nasty Potence/Fortitude combat deck, that kept beating all the other combat decks. Then someone got sick of being killed by stupid combat decks, and made a completely anti-combat bleed deck, and kicked all of our assess. Thus, the combat deck players had to put together non combat decks to compete with the anti-combat decks, and so on. This didn't happen between hands, it happened between gaming sessions, so there were completely new decks at every game. [ quoted text not captured ]

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: > Yeah, hey. What is the current state of interaction between WWEF and Mind Numb > or that "You can't untap" card? As allowed by card text. Generally, this means that Wake is usable and operates as normal. The "doesn't untap" cards are usually "as normal during the untap phase" - which allows untapping by other means, and certainly allows waking, which doesn't actually untap the vampire at all. Mind Numb falls in this category. That "You can't untap" card is Sleeping Mind. In the inferior it will defeat the as-yet-unplayed Wakey if the vampire that would've been woken is the on selected by Sleeping Mind. In the superior, it does not restrict waking (although it does restrict untap effects like Rat's Warning), since Wake doesn't actually untap the vampire. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html [ quoted text not captured ]

> Xian wrote: > "'Kay. Good. I myself am still sometimes nervous about the whole +1 hand > damage thing too, but if Peter says it's good, I'll believe him. Again, too > much choking on Gangrel decks in my early days..." If the +1 hand damage bothers you that much, play it with Song of Serenity. That'll take away the +1 hand damage and leave you with all the other benefits. Noal -- "DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors." -Ambrose Bierce. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Xian wrote: > Hehe. I was trying to be thoughtful, cause he mentioned 4CL, and I figured > that if you can't play 12 or so Skin of Steel, the Ventrue disciplines are > the most redundant, in that Presence has Majesty, and at least one S:CE in > Sabbat. Absolutely. You can use Skin of Steel and Rolling with the Punches. At superior, they both have the same effect. Toss in some Skin of Rock cards to deal with non-strike damage, and you should be good. If you like, toss in 4 Leather Jackets and 4 Flak Jackets. Majesty is good and Catatonic Fear is a great card. If you need 12 S:CE (and I doubt you really will need that much) you can toss in Staredown or Obedience. Personally, I like guns to keep the fear up...but you do have to be careful with vampires that use Animalism, Celerity, Fortitude and to some degree, Potence. > And as mentioned in a recent thread, by > Jasper, I believe...or maybe you Peter, Rat's Warning & Guard Dogs suck to > draw when you're being voted against or whatever. Agreed. Which is why I never use them. I prefer Forced Awakening first, and WWEF second. Animalism untaps are okay if you need them for the press or maneuver...but if that's the case, you should be either using Hawgs and IR Goggles or Fake Outs and Boxed Ins. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <7537u5$vff$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Dhar...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Xian wrote: > > "'Kay. Good. I myself am still sometimes nervous about the whole +1 hand > > damage thing too, but if Peter says it's good, I'll believe him. Again, too > > much choking on Gangrel decks in my early days..." > > If the +1 hand damage bothers you that much, play it with Song of Serenity. > That'll take away the +1 hand damage and leave you with all the other > benefits. No room. My deck is about as tight as it gets right now. And it's waaay too close to being a rip-off of Peter's deck. I've got fewer Behind You's, but I put in a few Patagia and Swallowed by Nights. Fewer Taste of Vitae, which I should fix. Beyond that, right now it's Pot/Obf. I'm not sure how well it would work to go back to Ani/Pot or Ani/Pot/Obf. But yeah...Song of Serenity is good, it just extends the combo that you need to pull off, which never helps. Stupid Tha/For deck..drawing all the Dominate at the start, the prevention in the middle, and the Dawn Ops at the end... Anyway... Xian "they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain lion on crack" --greensea -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- [ quoted text not captured ]

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: >Nah. Generally most players I have run across (as well as myself) find >"sideboarding" for Jyhad to be pretty contrary to the basic game concept. As >opposed to Magic which is far more about "card vs card" (or, say, Star Wars >which is about nothing _but_ "card vs card"), Jyhad is a game of "strategy vs >strategy". Jyhad is about how Rush works against Stealth and Bleed or how >Intercept works against Vote, not how card A can beat up card B. That, and >sideboarding makes the anti-clan masters _way_ more powerful than they should >be (anti-clan masters generally have very powerful effects that are balanced >out by their extreme opportunity cost). yeah... we've never been a fan of the anti-clan cards, and even when we do tweak decks between rounds (which hasn't even happened in a while) no one ends up going for the anti-clan cards... they're just, well, cheesy, I guess, kinda like the old hit-hit-throw cheez-maneuver from Street Fighter.. Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: >That, and >sideboarding makes the anti-clan masters _way_ more powerful than they should >be (anti-clan masters generally have very powerful effects that are balanced >out by their extreme opportunity cost). *nods* The only time that I've used an anti-clan card recently is Brujah Frenzy in my "Uriah Winter, Trojan Horse of the Giovanni" deck where I turn Uriah into a Brujah and use Vasilis to give all of my Giovanni +1 bleed when Uriah moves to my prey. Noal -- "DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors." -Ambrose Bierce. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- [ quoted text not captured ]