(LSJ) "Cancel" without the "no cost is payed" cards

Hello, I was reading the Target cards when it struck me that they had the "cancel [a] card" without the "(no cost is payed)" usual text. I ran some searches, and found that other cards did not have this explicit "no cost is payed" text. Here is a list of the cards I could find, classified in various groups (mainly, having / not having the "no cost is payed" text). - Cards that have "cancel [a] card" and "no cost is payed" Approximation of Loyalty Bleeding the Vine Charismatic Aura Contingency Planning Dark Influences (twice, the second being shortened to "(no cost)" for space reasons, I guess) Denial of Aphrodite's Favor Determine Direct Intervention Disengage Fae Contortion False Resonance Hall of Hades' Court Hide the Mind Iron Heart Jones, The Not to Be Personnal Involvement Rewind Time (TEM) Scry the Hearthstone Soul Decoration Shape Mastery (inf'; I guess sup' keeps the "(no cost is payed)" with the "as above" text) Soul Decoration Sudden Reversal Terra Incognita Touch of Clarity Tranquility Wash Khalu Lucita adv - Cards that have the "Cancel [a] card" text without the "no cost is payed" text Absolution of the Diabolist (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?) Aye (ex: "Frenzy" on this Laibon who has a Secure Haven is cancelled, is the pool paid?) Blood of Sandman (ex: if the target plays Telepathic Misdirection "just for cycling", does he burn 1 blood?) Crimson Fury (ex: does Cloak of Blood on torporised Etienne Fauberge; action is successful, Crimson Fury gets played, the acting vampire won't get his blood back) Delaying Tactics (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?) Dogs of War (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?) Ebony Fox Hunt (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?) Emergency Preparations (ex: Guarded Rubrics is in play, if EP is played on one's Dragonbound, do they still burn 1 pool ?) Gangrel Conspiracy (ex: is Veles' Hunt cost paid ?) Golconda: Inner Peace (ex: if my Golconda on the Secure Haven'd guy is cancelled, do I still burn 1 pool ?) Groundfighting (ex: if my Immortal Grapple costing 1 extra blood due to Terror Frenzy is cancelled, do I still burn 1 blood ?) Power of All (ex : if my Immortal Grappled costing 1 extra blood due to Terror Frenzy is cancelled, do I still burn 1 blood ?) Primal Instincts (ex: I cancel my Slam, I will not get my blood back) Pseudo-Blindness (ex: I cancel Ozmo's Forgotten Labyrinth, does Ozmo still burn 1 blood ?) React with Conviction (ex: Imbued has Secure Haven and is the target of my Art of Love, do I still burn 1 pool even if React is used to cancel the Art of Love ?) Reflex cards (all Abombwe ones; Fae Contortion has the "no cost is payed" text) (ex: "Frenzy" on the vampire who has a Secure Haven, is the pool paid ?) Rigor Mortis (ex: against Resist Earth's Grasp, is the blood paid ?) Target cards (Hand, Head, Leg, Retainer, Vitals) (ex: sup' Terror Frenzy is played against the vampire who then plays Target Vitals, if TV is cancelled, has he 1 less blood ?) True Love's Face (ex: Slow Withering is in play, if True Love's Face is cancelled by its own cardtext, has the acting vampire 1 less blood ?) Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic Misdirection - is the blood paid ?) Watchtower: the Wolves Feed (ex: ex: Guarded Rubrics is in play, if a vamipire is tapped to cancel one's Dragonbound, do they still burn 1 pool ?) T.J. (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?) Watenda (ex: if Watenda cancels a Slam, will the opposing minion have 1 less blood ?) Count Zaroff (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?) Andrew Stuart (ex: if Andrew plays Blood Fury, and reveals another Blood Fury, does Andrew have 2 less blood ?) Jan Pieterzoon adv (ex: Guarded Rubrics is in play, if JP adv cancels one's Dragonbound, do they still burn 1 pool ?) Santaleous (ex: if my prey plays Archon Investigation, has she lost 3 pool before resolving the bleed ?) - Cards that have the "cancel [a] card" and the "cost is payed" Botched Move Now, the first and last lists are very explicit about how the cost is handled, but the second isn't. If my guess is correct, all answers to text inside parentheses should be "Yes" (or "Correct"). But I have some concerns - some of the mentionned cards don't have enough space left for a "(no cost is payed)" text to be added. (for example, even Dark Influences' second occurrence of that pattern has been reduced to "(no cost)" ) So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list handled in another way than what I have written? Some cards of the first list and of the second list "oppositely" match : - Fae Contortion has a reflex effect using the "no cost is paid" text, whereas Predator's Communion's (this one has a small overall amount of text) reflex effect does not mention "no cost is paid". (both cards are from the LoB set) - Not to Be (KMW) and Emergency Preparations (Gehenna) have different texts, but for the same effect. It has already been ruled numerous times that cards without the "no cost is paid" mention will have the cancelled card paid (Delaying Tactics + PTO is a common old example) - has that changed ? Thanks !

floppyzedolfin wrote: > So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list > handled in another way than what I have written? If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid. > It has already been ruled numerous times that cards without the "no > cost is paid" mention will have the cancelled card paid (Delaying > Tactics + PTO is a common old example) - has that changed ? No.

LSJ replied to floppy: > floppyzedolfin wrote: > > So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list > > handled in another way than what I have written? > > If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid. Weird. I always thought that the "no cost" text was a reminder, and that payment was considered part of an effect's resolution, rather than a precursor to it. > > It has already been ruled numerous times that cards without the "no > > cost is paid" mention will have the cancelled card paid (Delaying > > Tactics + PTO is a common old example) - has that changed ? > > No. Delaying Tactics also does not cancel a card, and never has.

Floppy Z asked some questions about costs and cancelled cards. For some reason, he included several cards that don't cancel cards in his list. > Absolution of the Diabolist (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?) This cancels the blood hunt, not the card. It wouldn't even be possible for AotD to cancel VH as played, because the target of the blood hunt is not chosen until the action resolves successfully. > Delaying Tactics (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?) As noted in my other post, Delaying Tactics doesn't cancel a card. Like, not even sort of. > Dogs of War (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?) > Ebony Fox Hunt (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?) > Gangrel Conspiracy (ex: is Veles' Hunt cost paid ?) See my comments on Absoultion of the Diabolist. > Primal Instincts (ex: I cancel my Slam, I will not get my blood back) Again, the card is not cancelled; the strike is. In the example given, it is implied that Slam was played for a maneuver earlier in the round, and it is now way too late to cancel the whole card. > Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic > Misdirection - is the blood paid ?) Two Wrongs doesn't cacel a card. It redirects a bleed. Jesse

On Jun 1, 9:55 am, jcrossnicker...@gmail.com wrote: > > Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic > > Misdirection - is the blood paid ?) > > Two Wrongs doesn't cacel a card. It redirects a bleed. Two Wronds redirects a bleed AND cancels a card if someone tries to redirect that bleed again. -witness1

jcrossn...@gmail.com wrote: >> Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic >> Misdirection - is the blood paid ?) > > Two Wrongs doesn't cacel a card. It redirects a bleed. Two Wrongs: "The next card that would change the target of this bleed is canceled as it is played." In this case, it is canceling Carna's Telepathic Misdirection.

On Jun 1, 8:06 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I was referring to the part of the cards effect that often seems like cancellation, but isn't. Clearly the part that cancels a card does in fact cancel a card. I'm gonna go hide in the corner for a while. Jesse

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >floppyzedolfin wrote: >> So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list >> handled in another way than what I have written? > >If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is >paid. Talking of which, back in 2007, dvorax asked: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9befddf345860319 *** > a) II - PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS - C Pay cost and resolve > effect (unless canceled in step B). > I suppose, the unless canceled clause is valid for both paying and > resolving. If so, doesn't it contradict with "paying the cost is > default"? Yeah. I'll fix that. The default is that cost is paid. *** As of right now: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline "C. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B)." Can this be fixed? -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Jun 2, 6:25 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >floppyzedolfin wrote: > >> So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list > >> handled in another way than what I have written? > > >If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is > >paid. > > Talking of which, back in 2007, dvorax asked: > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9bef... > *** > > > a) II - PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS - C Pay cost and resolve > > effect (unless canceled in step B). > > I suppose, the unless canceled clause is valid for both paying and > > resolving. If so, doesn't it contradict with "paying the cost is > > default"? > > Yeah. I'll fix that. > The default is that cost is paid. > *** > > As of right now:http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline > "C. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B)." > > Can this be fixed? > > -- > James Coupe > PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. > EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. > 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. It seems as though it works like this... Cancel Effect ==> card was legally played and cost must be paid (e.g. Primal Instincts) Cancel Card ==> card was played and cost may be cancelled as well as the card (e.g. Charismatic Aura, Direct Intervention)