Hello Community
If you play in Ann Arbor at any event, and you win, know that your
deck list will be published within 72 hours of the event.
If you have extreme desires to keep your deck private, do not bring it
to our public events.
That is all,
David Wilson
Baron of Ann Arbor
(Why Baron? well I didn't have a vote, I took action.)
"Wilsoros" <davewi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:993840a0-ec90-4d3c...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> Hello Community
>
> If you play in Ann Arbor at any event, and you win, know that your
> deck list will be published within 72 hours of the event.
>
> If you have extreme desires to keep your deck private, do not bring it
> to our public events.
Hmmm. This stuff conjures up curiosity about what will happen if a
tournament winner packs up and runs off without leaving a deck list.
Will you send a couple of tough guys to beat it out of him? I suppose
you could collect deck lists up front but most organizers (at least
on this continent) don't.
Fred-"Gawd-this-whole-topic-of-conversation-is-ridiculous!"
On Nov 23, 10:04 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> "Wilsoros" <davewilso...@gmail.com> wrote in message[ quoted text not captured ]
If the organizer requests decklists, before or after the fact, and
does not receive
the list, I think they are within their bounds to issue a DQ or other
punishment
in accordance with 1.2: Necessary Tournament Materials
"Any materials specifically required for a particular tournament
format, as required by the V:EKN Floor Rules or the tournament
organizer."
and 6.3 Constructed Deck Registration
John P.
Winnipeg
On Nov 23, 10:04 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
>> Hmmm. This stuff conjures up curiosity about what will happen if a
> tournament winner packs up and runs off without leaving a deck list.
> Will you send a couple of tough guys to beat it out of him? I suppose
> you could collect deck lists up front but most organizers (at least
> on this continent) don't.
Also, what happens if someone attends who was not aware of this rule?
He then ends up in the finals when he discovers that winning would
result in the publishing of his deck, resulting in a complication
since now he has a very strong incentive to *not* win. Though there is
a play to win rule, he then has to find various ways to "mess up" and
get himself ousted but without being too obvious. Alternatively, you
could just have people who show up for the prelims and then need to
leave (i.e. leave before the final starts even though they qualify, or
in the middle of the finals when they're close to winning they
suddenly pack up and leave).
"John P." <jtpa...@mts.net> wrote in message
news:8f641442-5164-4f2e...@o23g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 23, 10:04 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> > "Wilsoros" <davewilso...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:993840a0-ec90-4d3c...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > Hello Community
> >
> > > If you play in Ann Arbor at any event, and you win, know that your
> > > deck list will be published within 72 hours of the event.
> >
> > > If you have extreme desires to keep your deck private, do not bring it
> > > to our public events.
> >
> > Hmmm. This stuff conjures up curiosity about what will happen if a
> > tournament winner packs up and runs off without leaving a deck list.
> > Will you send a couple of tough guys to beat it out of him? I suppose
> > you could collect deck lists up front but most organizers (at least
> > on this continent) don't.
>> If the organizer requests decklists, before or after the fact, and
> does not receive the list, I think they are within their bounds to
> issue a DQ or other punishment in accordance with 1.2: Necessary
> Tournament Materials "Any materials specifically required for a
> particular tournament format, as required by the V:EKN Floor Rules
> or the tournament organizer." and 6.3 Constructed Deck Registration
Before or during the tournament, sure. I would question whether such
a rule applies after a tournament has ended. It's over - the time for
DQs has past. Once the tournament ends, a player is well within his
rights to break up his deck, spread the cards to other decks or to
wherever he stores them and now say, "Sorry, dude! I can't recreate
my decklist any more."
Furthermore, maybe the one little thing I _do_ care about could suffer
if some threat of that sort were enforced: accuracy. Given such a
threat with no ability to ensure a post-event decklist is accurate,
nothing would stop the player from submitting an inaccurate one. He
might have to take care to make sure the one he submits can't be
pinned down as inaccurate from any play he made (that others can
easily recall) during the tournament. But that leaves wide latitude
for alteration. The bottom line for me is: if a player really doesn't
want to submit a decklist to an organizer for publication, I don't
really care what the latter's options are - it shouldn't be published
just because it might not be accurate. I really don't want to see
questionable decklists infecting the records we have of tournaments.
Fred
echia...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Also, what happens if someone attends who was not aware of this rule?
Competitors, judges, and organizers involved in sanctioned tournaments are
responsible for knowing and following the most current version of the V:EKN
Tournament Rules [V:EKN 2.1]
http://white-wolf.com/vtes/?line=veknRules.html#sec2.1
On Nov 23, 2:04 pm, "Frederick Scott" wrote:
> "Wilsoros" wrote:
>
> > If you play in Ann Arbor at any event, and you win, know that your
> > deck list will be published within 72 hours of the event.
>
> > If you have extreme desires to keep your deck private, do not bring it
> > to our public events.
>
> Hmmm. This stuff conjures up curiosity about what will happen if a
> tournament winner packs up and runs off without leaving a deck list.
> Will you send a couple of tough guys to beat it out of him? I suppose
> you could collect deck lists up front but most organizers (at least
> on this continent) don't.
If the organizer wants to make sure he'll have the TWD to publish, I
imagine he will request players to bring their decklists to the event.
Abraço,
Luiz Mello
Eric,
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ said it best, but to be clear, it will be part of all future
tournament announcements, and a point I will make before I take their
money to play the event.
David Wilson
Baron of Ann Arbor
Reporter of Decks.
Eric,
I want to be clear, I consider you a strong competitor, largely due to
the fact that you change your decks between events. In my mind as
soon as anyone shows up with a deck, it is out of date, those that are
there see it and think of new and often better things to do with the
decks. I find the TWDA to be a great place to see what others have
done, and I think it keeps people honest, not that I think there is
much of an issue within the community.
I would be sorry if you didn't attend an event because you don't want
your deck list published, but that is the way it will be (and has been
except the 72 hrs) here in Ann Arbor.
David Wilson
Baron of Ann Arbor, Michigan
Reporter of Decks.
Hey, it's okay. I'm not taking any of this personally because it
actually doesn't affect me directly.
If I win a tournament, I don't really care if the deck gets published
or not. But it's more a matter or principle and I'm just trying to
defend the right of others who do care about their deck getting
published (plus I like playing devil's advocate).
:-)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Nov 23, 8:29 am, Petri Wessman <or...@orava.org> wrote:
> Added: for what it's worth, the decklist of the winner (and finalists,
> for bigger tournaments) for the tournaments I run *will* be made
> public, regardless of wishes of the winner(s). If you do not like
> that, please do not attend.
>
> -Petri
On Nov 22, 3:14 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> Come to Origins, where winning decklists are made public,
> whether you want them to be made public or not.
This is all delightful news! I very much look forward to seeing all
the winning deck lists, particular for the following events:
- Constructed events with less than 10 players (I really wanna see the
winners of those 4-player tourneys!)
- Limited events (don't forget proper decklists include ALL cards that
were received by the player, not just the ones in his deck during the
final round)
- Pre-release events
- Demo events
- Storyline events
Keep those deck lists coming! ;-)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yes, but VEKN 1.7 largely makes it a frivolous exercise:
1.7. Document Updates
The V:EKN reserves the right to alter these rules as well as the right
to interpret, modify, clarify, or otherwise issue official changes to
these rules, with or without prior notice.
Even if you do carefully memorize the VEKN rules, they can be abruptly
changed (without warning), even in the middle of a tournament.
If they really wanted to, VEKN could invoke 1.7 to change 2.1,
eliminating the 30 days clause for game rule changes, ruling
reversals, and errata. Heck, if they wanted to, they could probably
use 1.7 to create new rules that apply retroactively. "Guess what?
We're going to add
Second Tradition, Parity Shift, Blood Doll, Minion Tap, and Vessel to
the banned list and make it retroactive to maybe 2003? So this may
retroactively invalidate some previous championship winners but oh
well."
Section 1.7 seems to give them carte blanche power to do anything they
want (though I suppose in extreme circumstances you could try to
invoke the doctrine of unconscionability).
Obviously, the VEKN has never chosen to abuse these powers (and if
they ever did there would undoubtedly be severe PR repercussions).
Then again, with Ryan Dancey creeping in the shadows, who knows what
could happen in the future? (That was sarcasm BTW).
But the point is, just because something *can* be technically done,
doesn't mean that it *should* or *will be*.
Furthermore. In the case of 1.6:
1.6. Publishing Event Information
White Wolf, Inc. reserves the right to publish event information such
as the contents of any player's deck as well as transcripts or video
reproductions of any sanctioned tournament. The tournament organizer
is also permitted to publish event information.
White Wolf and the tournament organizer can publish that info, but
they shouldn't necessarily always do so.
Suppose I attend a small, 4-person, VEKN-sanctioned tournament in
Podunk, Idaho, or in the frozen wastes of Siberia, or at my isolated
research facility in Antarctica. Yes, technically White Wolf has the
right to publish video reproductions of the event, but I think it is
reasonable to assume that Oscar isn't going to show up there with a
camera crew. And if finals are about to start, and suddenly Oscar
crashes my Antarctica tournament (maybe he hijacked a luxury liner or
rode some penguins down here), you'd have the situation where I'd be
tempted to leave abruptly or lose on purpose so that my winning deck
isn't revealed.
I previously mentioned hypothetical scenarios where the winning player
wouldn't want attention (deck/photos/video being published) like if he
was in a witness protection program. Alternatively:
- Maybe his religious beliefs are an issue (when you photograph/
videotape me, you're stealing my soul!)
- Could be a cultural issue (I come from a simple, Amish lifestyle and
don't approve of your electronic devices, not to mention the
prohibitions against "graven images")
- Maybe the winning player is suffering a disease and is embarrassed
about his or her appearance. Cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy
(and with a bald head as a result). HIV patients with skin lesions.
Etc.
In all these cases, White Wolf could decide to publish photos/videos
of the event (and including this individual) even against that
person's consent. But I highly doubt that they would actually do so
(talk about a PR disaster!).
And finally, if you want to get nitpicky about the rules:
1.6. Publishing Event Information
White Wolf, Inc. reserves the right to publish event information such
as the contents of any player's deck as well as transcripts or video
reproductions of any sanctioned tournament. The tournament organizer
is also permitted to publish event information.
1.7. Document Updates
The V:EKN reserves the right to alter these rules as well as the right
to interpret, modify, clarify, or otherwise issue official changes to
these rules, with or without prior notice.
- Note that the tournament organizer is permitted to publish *any
player's deck* (not just the winning player or even the finalists).
Could technically be abused by a devious organizer. Run a 100 person
event and you have carte blanche access to *all* of the player's deck
lists. ::takes a mental note of this loop hole::
- White Wolf and the organizer are allowed to publish transcripts or
videos, but the VEKN rules don't provide that right to someone else.
(So judges or spectators aren't granted the right to publish videos of
the finals).
- 1.6 specifically mentions decks, transcripts, and videos, but does
not say anything about photos. Now White Wolf could invoke 1.7 to
"clarify" or "modify" things to cover photos (heck, it could even try
to include fingerprints and DNA samples). But under a strict
interpretation of the rules, the tournament organizer isn't able to
publish photos (though videos are okay), unless photos have been
officially clarified to fall under "event information".
(I obviously have too much spare time right now).
echia...@yahoo.com wrote:
> "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:>> Come to Origins, where winning decklists are made public,
>> whether you want them to be made public or not.>
> This is all delightful news! I very much look forward to seeing all
> the winning deck lists, particular for the following events:
>
> - Constructed events with less than 10 players (I really wanna see the
> winners of those 4-player tourneys!)
I have published the winning constructed decklists for 10 years.
> - Limited events (don't forget proper decklists include ALL cards that
> were received by the player, not just the ones in his deck during the
> final round)
I'm not going to publish limited event decklists, for the same reason
that the official WW cardlist doesn't list draft effects.
The winner of the event may wish to post their draft deck, of course.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
> Hmmm. This stuff conjures up curiosity about what will happen if a
> tournament winner packs up and runs off without leaving a deck list.
> Will you send a couple of tough guys to beat it out of him? I suppose
> you could collect deck lists up front but most organizers (at least
> on this continent) don't.
just making deck list a mandatory condition for a player to enter
tournament solves this pretty much, doesn't it?
or
not giving a player his prize (we're talking winning deck, right?)
before his gives his list or let's judge write it down also solves the
issue of
having all lists written down, doesn't it? dodge a rule, loose a
prize.
bottom line:
1. there are so many variations and preparations for a particular
metagame and no focusing deck can be prepared for everything anyway,
so what's the fuss? you're giving back something to the community when
you make your list public - people will learn about new aspects of the
game
2. I've played Magic the Gathering for years and I am a noob/newbie/
whatever when it comes to VTES. In MTG lists are much much more
valuable since there are only few viable decks in any format in any
season and still people don't bitch about their lists being revealed.
Moreso, you can't enter a constructed tournament without one (because
of deck restrictions) and there are always deckchecks in every round.
No problem to them. Why would it pose a problem in VTES when there are
hundreds of viable decks all the time???
3. You're not planning to play a SINGLE deck for the rest of your
life? you will tweak it from tournament to tournament, right? What
kind of player are you when you are afraid that your one deck will be
known to other random players around the world? And if you play
several decks, do you honestly think that ten people will prepare to
beat fifty other decks by memorizing them by heart? Even then change a
card or two and you're set to go.
4. If you're not entering tournaments because your deck will became
public, then what's the point of having a deck???
5. Did you invent a deck that so unique that nobody played it before?
Even if it so, you still have to beat all other players at a
tournament. Unique and blockbusting? With such a large community
playing this game all over the world? A dude who's thinking this way
is giving himself a lot more credit than he should. I could understand
if Peter Bakija or Ben Peal or Hugh Angseesing or at best ten to
twenty more players of their caliber would think so, but guess what:
they share their lists and their strategies and they still win because
they are great enough people to win because of their skills, not with
mystical magic from pieces of cardboard. Whoever skips tournaments
because of obligation for sharing their list, good riddance!
"Ivan Mystery Man" <ivanj...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9056bc0f-26a0-4612...@w19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> I wrote:
> > Hmmm. This stuff conjures up curiosity about what will happen if a
> > tournament winner packs up and runs off without leaving a deck list.
> > Will you send a couple of tough guys to beat it out of him? I suppose
> > you could collect deck lists up front but most organizers (at least
> > on this continent) don't.
>
> just making deck list a mandatory condition for a player to enter
> tournament solves this pretty much, doesn't it?
Well, that's why I included the part about "deck lists up front". Sure,
if you already have the deck list in your hand it solves the problem.
Most tournament organizers don't want to bother with it. It's also
problematic if the tournament organizer plays, using multi-judge rules.
You can't actually check if the deck list is accurate because that would
be an unfair advantate as a player.
> or
> not giving a player his prize (we're talking winning deck, right?)
> before his gives his list or let's judge write it down also solves the
> issue of having all lists written down, doesn't it? dodge a rule, loose a
> prize.
It does as long as the player wants the prize more than he wants to keep
his deck from being released.
[ quoted text not captured ]
This is all opinion. And it doesn't even matter what my opinion is.
The opinion of any given tournament winner may well be different than
your's. I personally don't seek to advocate whether it's reasonable or
not reasonable to care if a deck gets released. I was just posting to
point out that for a tournament organizer to make good on his threat/
promise to release the tournament winner's deck may prove problematic
in some situations.
Fred